YOVMO Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 So I have a question that is bugging me this re-read. So when Jarl is climbing the wall and Jon, Ygritte and the Thenn's are watching Jon comments that Benjen told him once that at castle black the wall was a sword, but to the west it was a snake. It made me think, there are a few times when Jon thinks back to things Benjen told him about the wall. That it defends itself, stuff about rangers etc. etc. So ok, when you join the Watch you forsake your family name. Maester Aemon explains that the reason you do not father children, do not hold titles, blah blah blah is because you have to put duty first. However, it seems that Benjen had a lot of direct contact with Jon. When he arrives at Winterfell for the feast for King Robert he instantly knows Jon and they are like uncle and nephew. Jon thinks back to wisdom Benjen shared. So did Benjen, first ranger, get to just take some holidays from the NW and go home to Winterfell to hang with the fam? If so, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Tristan Flowers Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 You don´t stop being a person just because you join the NW. It´s important for the NW to maintain diplomatic relations with great lords, especially the lord of winterfell. The old bear would be stupid not to use Benjens connection to his brother for the watch. If that means he gets to see his family every now and then, good for Benjen. That didn´t stop Benjen from doing his job. I don´t think there´s anything wrong with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted July 20, 2016 Author Share Posted July 20, 2016 10 minutes ago, Ser Tristan Flowers said: You don´t stop being a person just because you join the NW. It´s important for the NW to maintain diplomatic relations with great lords, especially the lord of winterfell. The old bear would be stupid not to use Benjens connection to his brother for the watch. If that means he gets to see his family every now and then, good for Benjen. That didn´t stop Benjen from doing his job. I don´t think there´s anything wrong with it. Yes, I can see this. But it would seem to me that, in his place, it would be better to send someone other than Benjen to winterfell as Benjen will have sympathies to winterfell. I mean, I get what you are saying, but I can just as easily see the old bear saying that by using Benjen as an envoy to the Starks he may one day be at cross purposes and his allegence needs to be separated from his former family. I am wondering if there was a special reason why Jaffer Flowers, for instance, wasn't sent to Ned -- or, for that matter, anyone who wasn't a northerner just to make sure that the allegiance was always to the NW and never to the stark in winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 31 minutes ago, YOVMO said: However, it seems that Benjen had a lot of direct contact with Jon. Agreed there does seem to be quite a lot of familiarity. "Don't you usually eat at table with your brothers?" Jon looked up happily as his uncle Ben put a hand on his head and ruffled his hair much as Jon had ruffled the wolf's. His uncle glanced over his shoulder at the raised table at the far end of the hall. "My brother does not seem very festive tonight." And Jon got right angry when Benjen nonchalantly without malice says "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son."Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!" Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity." He put a hand on Jon's shoulder. 33 minutes ago, YOVMO said: So did Benjen, first ranger, get to just take some holidays from the NW and go home to Winterfell to hang with the fam? If so, why? In a serious non joking manner I would say Benjen had special privilege due to the Stark connection with the history of the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impbread Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Could be he was sent to recruit during feasts and special occasions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masha Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 10 minutes ago, YOVMO said: Yes, I can see this. But it would seem to me that, in his place, it would be better to send someone other than Benjen to winterfell as Benjen will have sympathies to winterfell. I mean, I get what you are saying, but I can just as easily see the old bear saying that by using Benjen as an envoy to the Starks he may one day be at cross purposes and his allegence needs to be separated from his former family. I am wondering if there was a special reason why Jaffer Flowers, for instance, wasn't sent to Ned -- or, for that matter, anyone who wasn't a northerner just to make sure that the allegiance was always to the NW and never to the stark in winterfell. The problem with your argument is that NW needed those sympathies to Winterfell. WF not KL helped keep NW supplied and going. The best NW got from KL since Aerys'r rule is a bunch of unruly prisoners. So why would Old Bear sent someone to Starks whom have zero relationship with, who is not even a Northerner, who doesn't understand Starks or Northern culture intimately and who might accidentally anger or antagonize Starks? When with Benjen, they might get extra stuff because Ned would never say No to his lil' brother NW comes to Starks as beggars not choosers, and thats why Benjen is used Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted July 20, 2016 Author Share Posted July 20, 2016 1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said: In a serious non joking manner I would say Benjen had special privilege due to the Stark connection with the history of the Wall. I would be much quicker to believe that Benjen, as a Stark, gets special privileges than some notion that he was being used for diplomacy with Winterfell. However, even with that....why would Benjen want to spend so much time back at winterfell? I guess it goes into why he left in the first place (which I still have not seen a convincing argument about). It really does make me wonder how much of Jon's fate to serve at the wall ... and to be groomed for leadership ... was prediscussed between Ned, Benjen and possibly even Mormont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted July 20, 2016 Author Share Posted July 20, 2016 Just now, Masha said: The problem with your argument is that NW needed those sympathies to Winterfell. WF not KL helped keep NW supplied and going. The best NW got from KL since Aerys'r rule is a bunch of unruly prisoners. So why would Old Bear sent someone to Starks whom have zero relationship with, who is not even a Northerner, who doesn't understand Starks or Northern culture intimately and who might accidentally anger or antagonize Starks? When with Benjen, they might get extra stuff because Ned would never say No to his lil' brother NW comes to Starks as beggars not choosers, and thats why Benjen is used I can see this in some ways for sure. But there is no reason to think that Winterfell would have acted otherwise no matter who was sent. For that matter, Jeor Mormont himself would, most likely, have had a fine relationship with Ned. There are problematic aspects to sending Benjen as the NW is actively trying to make sure that people have an alligence to the NW and not to their former families. The new brothers, not the old are the ones that matter. Now, if the lord of winterfell was a jerkface or was greedy or was, in any way hostile to the needs to the Nights Watch I can see playing on his sympathies by using his brother, but there was no real need for the Nights Watch to go to that point with Ned who saw the NW as an honorable order and had a history already of being generous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 4 minutes ago, Masha said: NW comes to Starks as beggars not choosers, and thats why Benjen is used Good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 1 minute ago, YOVMO said: I can see this in some ways for sure. But there is no reason to think that Winterfell would have acted otherwise no matter who was sent. For that matter, Jeor Mormont himself would, most likely, have had a fine relationship with Ned. There are problematic aspects to sending Benjen as the NW is actively trying to make sure that people have an alligence to the NW and not to their former families. The new brothers, not the old are the ones that matter. Now, if the lord of winterfell was a jerkface or was greedy or was, in any way hostile to the needs to the Nights Watch I can see playing on his sympathies by using his brother, but there was no real need for the Nights Watch to go to that point with Ned who saw the NW as an honorable order and had a history already of being generous. It's about having connections. Would the Stark's help someone from the NW sure, would they help him as much as they would Benjin, I seriously doubt it. It's a difference of getting more from the Stark's at the end of the day. I wouldn't doubt that Ned would give double the supplies to his brother than he would any random NW man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ McLannister Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 The Night's Watch isn't a prison. Why shouldn't Benjen go home from time to time? He's not out claiming titles and fathering sons. He may have been limited early on, but once his loyalty was ensured, why keep him at the wall all the time? The Old Bear may not have visited home, but he apparently still had enough of a connection that they sent him his sword when Jorah went into exile. Aemon apparently corresponded with Rhaegar, though I don't know that they ever met in person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted July 20, 2016 Author Share Posted July 20, 2016 6 minutes ago, sifth said: It's about having connections. Would the Stark's help someone from the NW sure, would they help him as much as they would Benjin, I seriously doubt it. It's a difference of getting more from the Stark's at the end of the day. I wouldn't doubt that Ned would give double the supplies to his brother than he would any random NW man. I feel that if that is the answer to my question then I can't really complain. I mean it does make sense. It just seems to me that Benjen spent an awful lot of time at Winterfell. Not just for feasts or diplomatic missions. It also seems to me that the Nights Watch would specifically want to make sure that their 1st ranger kept his priorities straight....Nights Watch more important than former family. Again, I can't really put my finger on it and I have no beef with your claim here as it makes sense, but something smells fishy and it isn't a tully or manderly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masha Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Plus, its a good marketing tool. Young boys like Jon see Benjen, as someone to aspire to, and fantasize about. Do you really think that Yoren or Allister Thorne, or some pretentious southerner like Jaffer Flowers or that Royce kid, would inspire Jon to ask Ned to be allowed to join NW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baratheon Bastard Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Also I believe the main reason you don't see other members of the watch out and about is because they are criminals bound to The Wall for crime. If Benjin swore his vows by his own choice like Jon, then there could definitely be some lenience in letting him travel, especially if it's not very far down to Winterfell. Hell Yoren practically doesn't even live at The Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgrav Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 1) Benjen is First Ranger, which means the LC trusts him greatly. He could just as easily desert while ranging. 2) He's a Stark, which carries great honor and influence in the North 3) Benjen could not desert anywhere in the North, as Ned would not stand for it and would probably honor kill his own brother if it came to that 4) Nights Watchmen are often sent on missions south in service of the Wall's interests. Eg, Yoren, Alliser, Samwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 1 hour ago, YOVMO said: So I have a question that is bugging me this re-read. So when Jarl is climbing the wall and Jon, Ygritte and the Thenn's are watching Jon comments that Benjen told him once that at castle black the wall was a sword, but to the west it was a snake. It made me think, there are a few times when Jon thinks back to things Benjen told him about the wall. That it defends itself, stuff about rangers etc. etc. So ok, when you join the Watch you forsake your family name. Maester Aemon explains that the reason you do not father children, do not hold titles, blah blah blah is because you have to put duty first. However, it seems that Benjen had a lot of direct contact with Jon. When he arrives at Winterfell for the feast for King Robert he instantly knows Jon and they are like uncle and nephew. Jon thinks back to wisdom Benjen shared. So did Benjen, first ranger, get to just take some holidays from the NW and go home to Winterfell to hang with the fam? If so, why? Plot reasons. The same reason that Jon gets to take a dangerous pet with him to the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted July 20, 2016 Author Share Posted July 20, 2016 10 minutes ago, El Guapo said: Plot reasons. The same reason that Jon gets to take a dangerous pet with him to the Wall. That is probably the most likely reason, but I was hoping for me lol. I mean, Jon could have said that Jeor Mormont told him that the wall is like a sword at castle black but a snake to the west. He could have said Sam told him, or Quohrin or Stonesnake or hell it could have been in one of old nan's stories. Ned could have told him. Shit, Alister Thorne might have mentioned it in between fits of being a dickweek. Maester Aemon might have told him that before he left on the ranging. Why benjen who, by all accounts, I feel he should not have had a ton of contact with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OuttaOldtown Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Vacation time must be requested 6-months in advance and you must sent to to the Lord Commander by raven with a cover sheet that has "ATTN: Lord Commander" clearly written and the number of pages.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted July 20, 2016 Author Share Posted July 20, 2016 5 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said: Vacation time must be requested 6-months in advance and you must sent to to the Lord Commander by raven with a cover sheet that has "ATTN: Lord Commander" clearly written and the number of pages.. lol. The Builders, The Rangers, The Stewards and Human Resources Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Aemon had connections with Rhaegar too. By your logic he isn't a member of Night Watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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