Clegane'sPup Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 7 minutes ago, YOVMO said: I mean, Jon could have said that Jeor Mormont told him that the wall is like a sword at castle black but a snake to the west. 1 hour ago, YOVMO said: So when Jarl is climbing the wall and Jon, Ygritte and the Thenn's are watching Jon comments that Benjen told him once that at castle black the wall was a sword, but to the west it was a snake. I'm a tad bit lost. Now I am going to make a non serious comment. A tin foolery comment. The Wall is built upon a river. A frozen river that stretches from A Bay of Ice to A Bay of Seals. The river slithers/shillie shallies at the west and straightens out at CB and flows in a direct line to Eastwatch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted July 20, 2016 Author Share Posted July 20, 2016 15 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said: I'm a tad bit lost. Now I am going to make a non serious comment. A tin foolery comment. The Wall is built upon a river. A frozen river that stretches from A Bay of Ice to A Bay of Seals. The river slithers/shillie shallies at the west and straightens out at CB and flows in a direct line to Eastwatch. I think the basic explanation is just the terrain isn't as smooth, but I like yours better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted July 20, 2016 Author Share Posted July 20, 2016 16 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said: I'm a tad bit lost. Now I am going to make a non serious comment. A tin foolery comment. The Wall is built upon a river. A frozen river that stretches from A Bay of Ice to A Bay of Seals. The river slithers/shillie shallies at the west and straightens out at CB and flows in a direct line to Eastwatch. By the way, for future reference, I will in fact agree with any opinion that so nearly fuses in the term "shillie shallies" regardless of content or form from this day to my last day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LokisRaider Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 I think you might be looking to far into this. The answers given make a ton of sense. Having a Stark ask for help from a Stark means he'll probably get more. And where does it say that Benjen is down there all the time? If he visited once every few years that's enough to learn about and know your nephews and nieces. I'm from the east coast and see my cousins from the west coast once every 4-5 years and I'd still be able to tell you about their hobbies, interests and know what they look like. (PS I do not use social media, we communicate via the 4-5 year seeings) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fossoway Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 We have reason to believe that politics still play a hand at the Wall. Jeor Mormont said in some place he sent Waymar Royce leading a patrol because he didn't want to upset Yohn Royce, so I believe correspondence goes back and forth from and to the Wall when it's about important nobles: I am only especulating but maybe Waymar wrote Yohn and viceversa. Benjen goes to the feast at Winterfell! The Wall seems like a very unequal place, just like real life. Lowborn and smallfolk conscripted are not known to have those kind of privileges, they just follow orders. As for maesters, they do give up their family names. Aemon is Aemon, not Aemon Targaryen. But since he is highborn I think he had the privilege of being able to communicate with his family members. But they are still bound to the Wall though. It's not like they can give up theor posts and flee back to their homes. Jon almost did that and even his black brothers saw the absolute and inevitable danger in that. Will (or Gared, the show always confuses me) was beheaded without much consideration. I think you, as a noble, can have some privilege to keep touch with your family, but that doesn't mean you can go back to them. The oath bounds you to the Wall and there's no way around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 1 hour ago, YOVMO said: By the way, for future reference, I will in fact agree with any opinion that so nearly fuses in the term "shillie shallies" regardless of content or form from this day to my last day. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ned Stark Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 1 hour ago, King Merrett I Frey said: We have reason to believe that politics still play a hand at the Wall. Jeor Mormont said in some place he sent Waymar Royce leading a patrol because he didn't want to upset Yohn Royce, so I believe correspondence goes back and forth from and to the Wall when it's about important nobles: I am only especulating but maybe Waymar wrote Yohn and viceversa. Benjen goes to the feast at Winterfell! The Wall seems like a very unequal place, just like real life. Lowborn and smallfolk conscripted are not known to have those kind of privileges, they just follow orders. As for maesters, they do give up their family names. Aemon is Aemon, not Aemon Targaryen. But since he is highborn I think he had the privilege of being able to communicate with his family members. But they are still bound to the Wall though. It's not like they can give up theor posts and flee back to their homes. Jon almost did that and even his black brothers saw the absolute and inevitable danger in that. Will (or Gared, the show always confuses me) was beheaded without much consideration. I think you, as a noble, can have some privilege to keep touch with your family, but that doesn't mean you can go back to them. The oath bounds you to the Wall and there's no way around it. Pretty much this. There is little enough incentive for nobles to join the watch as is, if they were treated as equals to rapists and murderers it might set a bad precedent. It may not be fair, but we don't all play by the same rules in real life. Ben might be the most high profile volunteer for the nights watch in quite some time, and while I'm sure he is an ideal first ranger, I wonder if someone like him or Royce would not be better for recruiting instead of lowborn Yoren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal BlackfyreO Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 3 hours ago, YOVMO said: Yes, I can see this. But it would seem to me that, in his place, it would be better to send someone other than Benjen to winterfell as Benjen will have sympathies to winterfell. I mean, I get what you are saying, but I can just as easily see the old bear saying that by using Benjen as an envoy to the Starks he may one day be at cross purposes and his allegence needs to be separated from his former family. I am wondering if there was a special reason why Jaffer Flowers, for instance, wasn't sent to Ned -- or, for that matter, anyone who wasn't a northerner just to make sure that the allegiance was always to the NW and never to the stark in winterfell. I think its safe to say that that Winterfell has sympathies to the Wall. It is most directly in the Watches' interest to give the North some preference, because it is apparent that the North gives them some preference. How many Lannister's serve at the wall? How many Tyrells? How many Arryns? How many Greyjoys? How manys Martell's? How many Baratheons? How many Tullys? Even leaving off the great lords, How many Freys? How many Hightowers? How many Daynes? How many...aww you get my point, it is in the North's direct interest to support the Wall and the Wall shouldn't have to make any bones about a 'small' preference shown to the Great Lords' of the North or any Northern house for that matter. Apart from supplying personnel the North gives logistical, political, and hell even moral support to the wall. Of all the seven kingdoms, they are the only ones that even give a second thought to the Wall. As much as they tout their apolitical nature and neutrality, if they ignored the only kingdom that actually gives them some support and values their work, they would not have lasted this long... P.S. I know there was a Royce at the wall, which is a major Vale house, but even he seemed to be from a cadet branch or something and the Vale seems to have a general affinity with the North in quite a few matters anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fossoway Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 5 minutes ago, Khal BlackfyreO said: P.S. I know there was a Royce at the wall, which is a major Vale house, but even he seemed to be from a cadet branch or something and the Vale seems to have a general affinity with the North in quite a few matters anyway. Waymar Royce is the youngest son of lord Royce of the main branch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal BlackfyreO Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 7 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said: Waymar Royce is the youngest son of lord Royce of the main branch Thanks for clarification, but I stand by what I said, still not a Great house and its the one kingdom with a tendency to agree with and support the North (and the one House of the Vale particularly known to do so, First men and all) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 It is my opinion that the op would benefit from sending me all of his personal information, including bank account numbers and access codes...and hey, no shilly shallying about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philokles Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 3 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said: We have reason to believe that politics still play a hand at the Wall. Jeor Mormont said in some place he sent Waymar Royce leading a patrol because he didn't want to upset Yohn Royce, so I believe correspondence goes back and forth from and to the Wall when it's about important nobles: I am only especulating but maybe Waymar wrote Yohn and viceversa. Benjen goes to the feast at Winterfell! The Wall seems like a very unequal place, just like real life. Lowborn and smallfolk conscripted are not known to have those kind of privileges, they just follow orders. As for maesters, they do give up their family names. Aemon is Aemon, not Aemon Targaryen. But since he is highborn I think he had the privilege of being able to communicate with his family members. But they are still bound to the Wall though. It's not like they can give up theor posts and flee back to their homes. Jon almost did that and even his black brothers saw the absolute and inevitable danger in that. Will (or Gared, the show always confuses me) was beheaded without much consideration. I think you, as a noble, can have some privilege to keep touch with your family, but that doesn't mean you can go back to them. The oath bounds you to the Wall and there's no way around it. This basically. Despite their claims, the Night's Watch is inextricably bound up in politics, and its policy is reliant on the senior figures and members of prominent houses. As well as using Benjen as the main conduit to the Starks, Jeor is delighted when Tyrion comes to the wall because he hopes that Tyrion could lobby Tywin and Cersei to provide assistance. All of this politicking makes the criticism of Jon for engaging in politics in ADWD unfair - it is his job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GallowsKnight Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 The night's watch is both pragmatic and resource hungry at that point. You send Benjen to Ned, because he will gets results. He can use his relationship and goodwill to get resources. I can't remember exactly but I'm sure after that feast where Jon leaves with Benjen, he also takes a bunch of horses and stuff back to the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Storm Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 I have always kind of felt that those who chose to join the Night's Watch vs those who were forced for committing crimes have a little more freedom. This is all conjecture but it seems like Benjen may have a similar arrangement to modern day troops. He goes on a long deployment north of the wall and then is able to maybe swing by winterfell, see what's up, grab a few recruits and head back. I have a feeling that had Jon's first attempt to head south not have been him trying to join a rebellion against the crown and subsequently all going to crap at WF and the wall, that he would have been able to take a 2 week vacation home to check on his paralyzed brother and such. But, you know, Others, Robb, Joffrey, Theon ext ruined that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erra Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Benjen was more likely to get more / better supplies from Winterfell than most others in the NW Benjen was better educated and could share / receive news at Winterfell better Younger and healthier to make regular trips without being gone for a long time Less likely to try running south because honor and whatnot We don't know how often Benjen was at Winterfell. I've got uncles who, while growing up, I only saw once every 2 years or less, yet there was always that uncle / nephew relationship with hugs and jokes. For the above reasons I think there's plenty of justification to send Benjen, and I can also imagine that if Benjen were still alive while Ned was held in KL and Rob went off to war, likely Benjen wouldn't be sent as often so he wouldn't be tempted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregg22 Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Benjen was also at Winterfell to see King Robert to impress upon him the dire situation at the Wall. "No doubt I will hear what your brother says soon enough," Robert said. "The Wall has stood for what, eight thousand years? It can keep a few days more. I have more pressing concerns. Who better to send to talk to the King than his best friends brother? He also brought back with him 20 fresh mounts and a cage full of ravens from Maester Luwin. To me, it would almost be ridiculous to send anyone else for this sort of stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 21 hours ago, Darkstream said: It is my opinion that the op would benefit from sending me all of his personal information, including bank account numbers and access codes...and hey, no shilly shallying about it. well played darkstream but trust me...my information won't get you very far. Now, if you would have used your shilly shally to request me to get you someone elses info you would have done much better, but I am afraid everyone only gets one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 34 minutes ago, YOVMO said: well played darkstream but trust me...my information won't get you very far. Now, if you would have used your shilly shally to request me to get you someone elses info you would have done much better, but I am afraid everyone only gets one. Ah dammit, it seems I used my shilly shally on a "Weese", when I should have been gunning for a "Tywin". Oh well, it was worth a try. Anyway, interesting topic, I was actually thinking about this a couple of weeks ago myself. I think there have been a lot of explanations that do make a lot of sense, but like you said, there is something that smells fishy about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Har ! What sort of tin foolery (tomfoolery) is going on with the shillie shallie (shilly shally). I dun't know about fishy smells, but dat First Ranger Benjen Stark did seem to have a bit of freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fossoway Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 2 hours ago, gregg22 said: Benjen was also at Winterfell to see King Robert to impress upon him the dire situation at the Wall. "No doubt I will hear what your brother says soon enough," Robert said. "The Wall has stood for what, eight thousand years? It can keep a few days more. I have more pressing concerns. Who better to send to talk to the King than his best friends brother? He also brought back with him 20 fresh mounts and a cage full of ravens from Maester Luwin. To me, it would almost be ridiculous to send anyone else for this sort of stuff. Benjen was a great asset for Jeor and the NW, not to mention a member of a Great House that joined the Watch 'willfully'. You have to consider both factors. Yoren was the designated officer that did the recruiting and resource gathering south of the Wall. If the Watch was rigid about functions, Jeor would have send Yoren to ask Ned for horses and ravens. Heck, Jeor even managed to justify a full ranging to 'get Ben back'. That's both privileges and strategic thinking and the use of politics. Benjen was a great ranger and had political and blood ties with an important House in the south, who in turn was closely related to the Crown. In those times of need, losing Benjen and gave up on him was a critical blow to the WWatch's future. Of course there were another reasons, but it caught my attention that Jeor said explicitely that finding Ben was a priority among others. More than once. I think GRRM made a cool balance here. Benjen's importance to the Watch is kinda overlooked and ppl tend to focus on just his whereabouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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