Will Jon and Sansa become romantically involved?

[Britisher]

 

17 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

A piece of paper that several lords of the North and the Riverlands signed and sealed - all alive still: Edmure, Glover, Maege, Mallister and Greatjon. They are all still alive. We may not know where they all are exactly, but none of them are dead. House Tully, House Glover, House Mormont, House Mallister and House Umber will back Robb's will. That's Sansa's own uncle and great-uncle, another Riverlands House and 3 houses of the North. Meanwhile Manderly is backing a surviving Stark boy. And those Mountain Clans have come to check out Jon at the Wall as well already. Alys Karstark and her Thenn are more likely to back Jon than any claim of Sansa's, certainly when there's a will legitimizing Jon. House Blackwood will follow Edmure & Blackfish and Mallister. The same can be argued for Pinkmaiden and Vance.

Only Houses left are Redwyn, Dustin aside from the Boltons and Freys (traitors).

I'll put a "no idea" for House Cerwyn, but I'm pretty sure they'll follow the majority, since they're a smaller house.

Neither the Northernerns nor the Riverlanders will allow the Vale to dictate who rules them from WF, because the Vale forfeited any such right when they refrained from coming to Robb's aid. They certainly wont have anything to do with LF either - the man who was gifted HH and made Lord Paramount of the Riverlands by the much hated Lannisters around the time of the RW.

If any of the Lords of the Vale, evenYohn Royce, tries to meddle with who the Northerners believe is Robb's heir they'll shut their doors and let that army freeze and starve to death.

Good points, although it will all depend on the timing.

The river lords are effectively cut off from the North so long as Walder Frey controls the Twins without Manderly's ships (the same could apply for Sansa and the Knights of the Vale).

The Riverlands were left in utter ruin as a result of the war, their levies diminished. The North fared a little better but a good chunk of its manpower was also broken from Robb's march South (with approximately 4,000 of the 20,000 Robb marched south returning home, most of which belonging to House Bolton).

The Vale has a levy size of atleast 20,000 men and they do have a fleet on some description (but we do not know any specifics). Factoring in your proposed doom at the Gates of the Moon would give the Vale a minimum levy of 12,000. 

I can see Manderly potentially working with Sansa over Jon under the pretext that working with Jon would legitimise his right to WF over Bran and Rickon. Working with Sansa would not undermine Bran/Rickon's claim on WF.

I doubt it'll all boil down to that though.

[Winterstars]

For fucks sake, not this shit again.

I've had enough with delusional things. 

[Darkstream]

33 minutes ago, Britisher said:

 

The river lords are effectively cut off from the North so long as Walder Frey controls the Twins without Manderly's ships (the same could apply for Sansa and the Knights of the Vale).

 

How so? The Frey's control the crossing of the Green Fork, they do not control the Kingsroad, which doesn't come close to the Twins. The River Lords would cross the Trident at the Ruby ford, and then follow the King's road north, never needing to cross at the Twins, the Knights of the Vale don't have to cross the Trident at all.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Britisher said:

Good points, although it will all depend on the timing.

The river lords are effectively cut off from the North so long as Walder Frey controls the Twins without Manderly's ships (the same could apply for Sansa and the Knights of the Vale).

The Riverlands were left in utter ruin as a result of the war, their levies diminished. The North fared a little better but a good chunk of its manpower was also broken from Robb's march South (with approximately 4,000 of the 20,000 Robb marched south returning home, most of which belonging to House Bolton).

The Vale has a levy size of atleast 20,000 men and they do have a fleet on some description (but we do not know any specifics). Factoring in your proposed doom at the Gates of the Moon would give the Vale a minimum levy of 12,000. 

I can see Manderly potentially working with Sansa over Jon under the pretext that working with Jon would legitimise his right to WF over Bran and Rickon. Working with Sansa would not undermine Bran/Rickon's claim on WF.

I doubt it'll all boil down to that though.

The attitudes of the North and the rebelling houses in the Riverlands do not depend on timing at all. Their attitudes towards allying with Stannis says enough in that regard.

Wyman Manderly is also working together with House Glover (the brother of the Lord of Deepwood Motte who put his seal on Robb's Will).

As for the Riverlands: it is even doubtful that the Freys will last for long at all. I refer to Lady Gwyn's essay (of radiowesteros.org): https://ladygwynhyfvar.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/gnc/

[Britisher]

On 25 July 2016 at 3:52 PM, Darkstream said:

How so? The Frey's control the crossing of the Green Fork, they do not control the Kingsroad, which doesn't come close to the Twins. The River Lords would cross the Trident at the Ruby ford, and then follow the King's road north, never needing to cross at the Twins, the Knights of the Vale don't have to cross the Trident at all.

The Freys can muster an army of 4,000 men. This could cause havoc against the river lords who are currently disorganised and split up across the Riverlands. When word reaches the Freys of mustering armies in the Riverlands they will fall down upon them with an iron fist. Their central holding (the Twins) is situated nearby the Kings road.

It is implied that their lands stretch between Ironman's Bay and the Bite in aSoS when the Hound says "We'd need to fight through the bloody Freys just to reach the Neck." 

 

[Britisher]

I have not posted on here in some time:

Reading over my posts on this thread I can see that some of my arguments have been flimsy: I concede that the "snow castle" in A Storm of Swords links in to both the Eyrie/Gates of the Moon and Winterfell and that there's no significant symbolism to imply that Rickon will die.

Moving on:

Quote

Through the quiet, the singing pulled at her. Sansa turned toward the sept. Two stableboys followed, and one of the guards whose watch was ended. Others fell in behind them.

Sansa had never seen the sept so crowded, nor so brightly light: great shafts of rainbow-colored sunlight slanted down through the high windows, and candles burned on every side, their little flames twinkling like stars. 

A Clash of Kings, p.813

This extract could foreshadow marriage/a romantic encounter between Sansa and Jon.

Although it could be coincidental the wording of this extract appears to be strikingly deliberate:

• "one of the guards whose watch was ended" links in to Jon. Within his vow to the Night's Watch Jon states that he is "the shield that guards the realms of men". His vow does not end until death. During funeral ceremonies at the Night's Watch it is also customary to declare "And now his watch is ended". By the end of A Dance With Dragons Jon is dead, making him a guard whose watch has ended.
• According to sweetsunray "singing" is a narrative device used by George RR Martin, relating to sexual encounters.
• "great shafts of rainbow-colored sunlight slanted down through the high windows" also parallels Margaery and Joffery's wedding, "Rainbow lights danced once more about the High Septon's crown as he solemnly declared Joffrey of Houses Baratheon and Lannister and Margaery of House Tyrell to be one flesh, one heart, one soul."
• The extract also links in to Arya's first chapter at the House of Black and White - "The septs of Westeros were seven-sided, with seven altars for the seven gods, but here there were more gods than seven. Statues of them stood along the walls, massive and threatening. Around their feet red candles flickered, as dim as distant stars."

Quote

She threw back the shutters and shivered as gooseprickles rose along her arms. There were clouds massing in the eastern sky, pierced by shafts of sunlight. They look like two huge castles afloat in the morning sky. Sansa could see their walls of tumbled stone, their mighty keeps and barbicans. Wispy banners swirled from atop their towers and reached for the fast-fading stars. The sun was coming up behind them, she watched them go from black to grey to a thousand shades of rose and gold and crimson. Soon the wind mushed them together, and there was only one castle where there had been two. 

A Storm of Swords, p.799-800

"She threw back the shutters and shivered as gooseprickles rose along her arms." - this links in to Catelyn's chapter at the start of A Game of Thrones when Ned pulled "back the heavy tapestries, and threw open the high narrow windows one by one, letting the night air into the chamber." and to the opening line of the snow castle chapter in A Storm of Swords.

This could potentially link in to Sansa and marriage, although admittedly the link is dubious at best. Black and gold are the colours of House Baratheon, black is the colour of the Night's Watch, grey is the colour of House Stark, gold and crimson are the colours of House Lannister and black and crimson (red) are the colours of House Targaryen. The sigil of House Tyrell is a rose. The two castles being "mushed" together could refer to Sansa (the grey castle) marrying Jon (the black/black and crimson castle) after being promised to Joffrey (gold and black), Willas (rose) and Tyrion (gold and crimson), . Admittedly it could also refer to her marriage to Tyrion (gold and crimson castle) or Sansa overcoming her political rivals.

Aside: There's also the fact that Sansa's grandmother is Minisa Whent. House Whent's ancestral seat is Harrenhal, where the Tourney at Harrenhal took place: a significant part of the R+L=J theory.

[Lady Ren]

On July 22, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Sly Wren said:

Yes--with Sandor, a burned man, like Jon. And not a "real, anointed" knight, like Jon isn't. 

I realize it's been quite a while since this comment - but I couldn't agree more with what you've said. 

There's a difference between being a character in your own right and existing as solely to provide opportunity to highlight the development of other characters:

- Sandor highlighted Sansa's development. She became partial to men of noble birth who rank much lower than her. But drew the line at running away with him. Sandor then went on to highlight Arya's development. 

- Yigritte showed us Jon wants love, but not at the expense of duty. Yigritte then died. 

- Tyrion showed us no matter how good someone is to her, she is not willing to accept someone with questionable (questionable to her) motives. They went their separate ways. 

- Val highlighted Jon's development. We know because of her that Jon wants a family of his own, but not at the expense of his siblings. She's flitting around in the background, and then not even that ( I think). 

Any love interests they have are ones that bring them closer to one another without the two of them knowing it:

- Jon loved Yigritte but there was no future there and he does not want a future with Val because her price is too high - this contrasted with Sansa who has no price and only gain (particularly for Jon);

- Jon's discomfort with the whole "stealing" custom is clear, and then there's Sansa's experience of having been stolen (numerous times);

- Val's aversion to Shireen, but Sansa's changed attitude towards Sandor's scars;

- Sandor telling Sansa that all men love to kill (or something of that sort), her horror contrasted with Jon's very clearly not wanting to kill;

- Sansa is attracted to rough Sandor but his edges are a little too rough (killed a boy), contrasted with Jon who wouldn't reserve his gentle nature just for her; and

- many many more.

Jon and Sansa (when they last saw each other) were very not close. These two are not going to think of each other fondly before going to bed. Instead of we have a lot of "great minds think alike" (like above), and references that are forced into the narrative (i.e.: fainting, dancing, ladies in towers, heroes, black knights etc.). They think of each other without expressly using that person's name because that's the only way they could think of who the other is now - this mystical "oh if such a person existed" ideal. We as the readers are left to draw the connection. But we could be entirely wrong, so we're left with just the possibility. And it is a possibility. 

 

 

 

[The Dew]

Well structured and interesting opinion. In my opinion just the antithesis between characters and their inversion through the development of their characters, I do not see that they will be together (not that it cannot happen in Georgeros). Apart from the "ew" factor (even the Targaryens appear to dislike it, and practice it for the dragon bloodlines to be pure), the only ones who enjoy it are the Lannisters. Val seems to be quite the match for Jon. So if Jon makes it back I guess he'd probably do something. 

[sweetsunray]

On 29-7-2016 at 1:15 PM, Britisher said:

The Freys can muster an army of 4,000 men. This could cause havoc against the river lords who are currently disorganised and split up across the Riverlands. When word reaches the Freys of mustering armies in the Riverlands they will fall down upon them with an iron fist. Their central holding (the Twins) is situated nearby the Kings road.

It is implied that their lands stretch between Ironman's Bay and the Bite in aSoS when the Hound says "We'd need to fight through the bloody Freys just to reach the Neck." 

 

2000 men of those 4000 are marching for the Ice Lakes against Stannis (where he's camped), which is a battle that Stannis most likely will win (not talking about winning WF, but just the battle against 2000 Freys). So, in your estimates, it is safe to only count 2000 men left to fight for Freys. That army btw is at the moment also fractured: a part of them is keeping Mallister prisoner at Seagard as forces with Black Walder. Another number of them are stationed at Darry, doing pretty much nothing, except feasting with Amy. Another number is now stationed into Riverrun as well. And finally another number of those men is or will be escorting the Twin hostages on the King's Road to be returned to the Crown. It's not the river lords who are disorganized and split up. The 2000 men of the Freys are split up all over and don't seem to have that much of success: they're at RR, Darry, King's Road and Seagard. There is probably a garrison left at the Twins.

So, we have roughly this situation by the end of aDwD

• North: 2000 men riding to an icy lake death
• Riverlands: 2000 men split across 5 locations. If split evenly that would make for 400 men at each location. But let's be optimistic and say Walder Frey keeps 1000 soldiers with him at the Twins. So that's 1000 soldiers split across 4 other locations, making an average of 250 soldiers at each location. 

 

[Britisher]

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

2000 men of those 4000 are marching for the Ice Lakes against Stannis (where he's camped), which is a battle that Stannis most likely will win (not talking about winning WF, but just the battle against 2000 Freys). So, in your estimates, it is safe to only count 2000 men left to fight for Freys. That army btw is at the moment also fractured: a part of them is keeping Mallister prisoner at Seagard as forces with Black Walder. Another number of them are stationed at Darry, doing pretty much nothing, except feasting with Amy. Another number is now stationed into Riverrun as well. And finally another number of those men is or will be escorting the Twin hostages on the King's Road to be returned to the Crown. It's not the river lords who are disorganized and split up. The 2000 men of the Freys are split up all over and don't seem to have that much of success: they're at RR, Darry, King's Road and Seagard. There is probably a garrison left at the Twins.

So, we have roughly this situation by the end of aDwD

• North: 2000 men riding to an icy lake death
• Riverlands: 2000 men split across 5 locations. If split evenly that would make for 400 men at each location. But let's be optimistic and say Walder Frey keeps 1000 soldiers with him at the Twins. So that's 1000 soldiers split across 4 other locations, making an average of 250 soldiers at each location. 

 

That is an excellent point, though I question the logistics of the Riverlords amassing a significant host to take on the Freys.

What about the Lannister host in the Riverlands?

How can the Riverlords coordinate their armies to defeat the Freys? - The Riverlords holdings are scattered across the Riverlands: in order to raise a significant host which stands some chance of overcoming the Freys they must overcome geographical obstacles such as the Trident and her tributary rivers whilst evading the Freys and the Lannisters to bring the bulk of their forces together. Do the Riverlords even have the men? The Trident cuts off the vast majority of the Riverlands from Seaguard.

What about the Frey garrisons in Darry, Riverrun and the Twins? - We know that the Twins and Riverrun are both almost impregnable. How can the Riverlords overcome the Freys at the Twins? A siege at the Twins would expose the Rivermen from the rear. Moreover, how could they go unnoticed? No doubt the Boltons, Freys and Lannisters have informants in the Riverlands. A significant host of Rivermen crossing through Frey lands are unlikely to go unnoticed...

In saying that I believe that the Riverlords could rise up against the Freys if they start to fight amongst themselves upon the death of Walder Frey.

What about Littlefinger? - Littlefinger is the Lord Paramount of the Trident. Is that a coincidence? What will the Riverlords do when he reveals Sansa Stark, who has a legitimate claim on the Riverlands through her mother?

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Britisher said:

What about the Lannister host in the Riverlands?

Lannister host is also scattered: Darry, Riverrun, a host is on the road intent to go to Casterly Rock with Edmure Tully and Jeyne Westerling, and Adam Marbrand is looking for the escaped Blackfish south of the Red Fork, the area between RR and HH, which is the heart of BwB territory AND Nymeria's giant pack of wolves.

1 hour ago, Britisher said:

How can the Riverlords coordinate their armies to defeat the Freys?

Wrong question. The Riverlords will not form an army together to attack each point. They are however supporting an underground army that is already experienced to attack as independent cells.

With regards to RR: Tom, the singer, of the BwB has installed himself as singer at Riverrun, commenting what a nice castle it is to winter in. Now, you may think that because of Thoros's comments to Brienne about "broken men" that Tom has left the BwB. BUT Tom first was the singer of Ryman Frey (and his Queen of whores who wore Robb's crown), and Ryman Frey and his escort end up hanged by LS and Robb's crown back in her hands. Jaime also leaves Tom to sing for Edmure while Edmure takes a bath (and after Jaime made his threat of throwing Edmure's child over the wall) and squires (Piper and Paege who are both of Houses who surrendered but in fact loyal to Tully and Stark if given the chance... their elder brothers were Edmure's close friends). And then next Edmure manages to convince Blackfish to surrender RR, somehow helps BF to escape, and departs on his "permanent hostage" journey to Casterly Rock with a hint of a smile. Oh, and only 2 men of the BF take the Black and are escorted to Maidenpool to take a ship to the Wall. Remember that Edmure is one of the witnesses and signers of Robb's will. And Jaime leaves a skeleton garisson at RR when he leaves himself. The siege also reveals that several hosues never showed up to help the Freys, and that those who did just sit back, eat Frey food and mostly confuse "what are we going to do" by suggesting diverse conflicting proposals. Tom has NOT left the BwB at all. He is an infiltrant. Let's imagine a celebration being held (like a wedding, since Daven is supposed to marry a Frey girl) at Riverrun, with family members and the small garrison getting good and well drunk, and Tom can just open the gate, let fighters sneak in and slaughter them all.

We also know from Arya's chapters that Riverlords have been helping the BwB: there's Lady Smallwood, the knight on the bridge, the Lady of the Leaves, and at some point a maester is mentioned (IIRC House Vance) to be a contact of information. An no maester would relay info to the BwB unless his Lord allows it.

Adam Marbrand in heart of BwB and Nymeria territory: I suspect that Nymeria's pack will take care of him and that we'll see this in one of Arya's wolf dreams. Arya recognizes Adam, because she saw him in HH when she was a captive there, and Adam rides a "red stallion" (I've written an essay on this with a long list of characters riding "red stallions"... they majorly tend to end up dead or captured)

Host with Edmure and Jeyne: The Blackfish was Robb's appointed Warden of the southern territories and sworn by Robb to protect his queen. Tully words are also "Duty, Family, Honor". There's just no way that the BF will break his vow to Robb and allow the Lannisters to have Edmure as a lifelong hostage, let alone Robb's Queen. When RR surrendered, the men were free to go wherever they wished as long as they surrendered their arms. Aside from the 2 who volunteered to take the black every other man surrenered their arms and disappeared into the woods, woods that at night have multiple fires burning in the distance (BwB fires), woods of which Adam remarks he feels watched all the time. With the men they've hanged, the Freys, their armed escorts, and the lion soldiers and an armorer apprentice working for them, how fast do you think BF's garrison allowed to disappear in the woods was immediately welcomed by BwB and re-armed? It is very very likely. And it's just as likely that Piper, Paege, Vance and other lords have in fact helped to arm the BwB too.

The Frey host on the KR with the hostages (taken during the RW at the Twins, such as the Greatjon) is a very obvious target. With the scattering of the troops, it's probably the easiest target of all. Again, the BwB factions in that area could do it.

Well and then there's Darry - Amy is not called "Open Gate Amy" for nothing.

Black Walder can be routed and taken from the rear

[Woman of War]

Did this thread get a little off topic  ?

I am not so sure if Jon -having been dead - will ever have something like a normal future. Should he really shake that off like a bad cold and go on with life as if his own death never had happened ? I believe Martin knows his philosophy and mythology, including different religious interpretations, he would not simply brush over the fact that Jon has been DEAD.

And I am not so sure that Sansa will survive the books at all. So maybe Sansa and Jon coming together might be an ephemerical thing.

Apart from that, if there should be a marriage between Sansa and Jon romance needs not be a topic at all. It might be a purely political decision, arranged by the two characters concerned because it would be the reasonable thing to do in their eyes. Just like Ned and Cat.

[Britisher]

On 8/15/2016 at 2:38 PM, Britisher said:

"She threw back the shutters and shivered as gooseprickles rose along her arms." - this links in to Catelyn's chapter at the start of A Game of Thrones when Ned pulled "back the heavy tapestries, and threw open the high narrow windows one by one, letting the night air into the chamber." and to the opening line of the snow castle chapter in A Storm of Swords.

This could potentially link in to Sansa and marriage, although admittedly the link is dubious at best. Black and gold are the colours of House Baratheon, black is the colour of the Night's Watch, grey is the colour of House Stark, gold and crimson are the colours of House Lannister and black and crimson (red) are the colours of House Targaryen. The sigil of House Tyrell is a rose. The two castles being "mushed" together could refer to Sansa (the grey castle) marrying Jon (the black/black and crimson castle) after being promised to Joffrey (gold and black), Willas (rose) and Tyrion (gold and crimson), . Admittedly it could also refer to her marriage to Tyrion (gold and crimson castle) or Sansa overcoming her political rivals.

Expanding upon this point: the aforementioned Sansa extract almost directly parallels an extract from one Jon's chapters in A Dance With Dragons:

Quote

Clouds streaked the sky like tattered banners, grey and white and torn.

Grey and white are the colours of House Stark.