Britisher

Will Jon and Sansa become romantically involved?

353 posts in this topic

23 minutes ago, Dya of Oldstones said:

Lastly in response to @King Crow I had to laugh about who would be better when Sansa needed to "puzzle her way out of a courtly difficulty." Aside from the romantic foreshadowing in the text, that's pretty much what Sandor helped her do when she was a hostage in KL, and last we heard from Jon, he was stabbed by the men under his command at the Wall. Not to mention that Sandor has spent most of his life in a royal court.

Yep. And she remembers what Sandor said, over and over again. She even hears his voice! (He lays it on thick.)

Here's one, there's a bunch more:

Quote

A dog can smell a lie, you know, the Hound had told her once. She could almost hear the rough rasp of his voice. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They're all liars here, and every one better than you. She wondered what had become of Sandor Clegane.

And then moments later, she thinks she hears his voice again:

Quote

"Singer," a rough voice said, "best go, if you want to sing again." The light was dim, but she saw a faint glimmer of a blade... It was Lothor Brune's voice, she realized. Not the Hound's, no, how could it be? Of course it had to be Lothor.

And then of course, she's in bed with a hound and dreams of the Hound in bed with her... She was really channeling him this chapter.

Edited by Le Cygne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, King Crow said:

I think you misunderstand me, I refer to actually making decisions. The Blackfish spent most of his life at one court or another, and still seemed pretty useless for political issues.

I think I understood just fine, and I'm still on Team Jon/Val and Sansa/Sandor. Jon has made choices that brought in a flood of new immigrants south of the Wall, and in many ways a marriage to Val would make more political sense in bridging cultural gaps. Not without problems, mind you but the alliance, along with her insights would be of great benefit.

@Le Cygne here's a chuckle for ya. I came across something that half jokingly said the reason the unKiss was so important was so Sansa could imagine an actual kiss she wanted while she was getting so many creepy non con kisses from guys like Dontos, LF and even SR.

 

Edited by Dya of Oldstones
added text

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, he has just got to know about that kiss! :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Dya of Oldstones said:

I think I understood just fine, and I'm still on Team Jon/Val and Sansa/Sandor. Jon has made choices that brought in a flood of new immigrants south of the Wall, and in many ways a marriage to Val would make more political sense in bridging cultural gaps. Not without problems, mind you but the alliance, along with her insights would be of great benefit.

 

What is the population of the wildlings vs. the North. Do they really have such a large number that they will affect the rest of the North too greatly with their exodus? From my understanding of the wildlings, their nature makes a marriage alliance pointless, they follow deeds not bloodlines.

Also, I don't understand why a great deal of trust is placed in Val. She is just as suspicious as Mel, especially with Mance still alive. I would rather Jon marry Sansa and reinforce the S.T.A.B. alliance. S.T.A.B. is already an extensive alliance, it is need of reinforcing, and I, believe there is no doubt that we can place our faith in its members.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@King Crow, how does Jon marrying Sansa reinforce the S.T.A.B alliance?  They are both Starks with loyalty to the same set of people. 

If Sansa gets control of the Vale, she will obviously ally it with the North over other factions. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, King Crow said:

What is the population of the wildlings vs. the North. Do they really have such a large number that they will affect the rest of the North too greatly with their exodus? From my understanding of the wildlings, their nature makes a marriage alliance pointless, they follow deeds not bloodlines.

Also, I don't understand why a great deal of trust is placed in Val. She is just as suspicious as Mel, especially with Mance still alive. I would rather Jon marry Sansa and reinforce the S.T.A.B. alliance. S.T.A.B. is already an extensive alliance, it is need of reinforcing, and I, believe there is no doubt that we can place our faith in its members.

I think you should take a look at this thread that explains how Val is set up to be something very important to Jon both personally and "medically" and how a union with her and Jon is also wise politically. 

 

Edited by The Fattest Leech

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

@King Crow, how does Jon marrying Sansa reinforce the S.T.A.B alliance?  They are both Starks with loyalty to the same set of people. 

If Sansa gets control of the Vale, she will obviously ally it with the North over other factions. 

 

A match with Sansa could make Jon's children relatives of the Lord of North, the Lord of the Vale and The Lord of Riverrun. instead if just the North. Furthermore, Jon could possibly take both Robert Aryn (if he survives) and Rickon as a ward.

This is of course just an ideal scenario. If the alliance marries an outside party, the outsider could undermine S.T.A.B. I would rather they strengthened their bonds between one another with wardships and marriage alliance until they have something ironclad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, King Crow said:

A match with Sansa could make Jon's children relatives of the Lord of North, the Lord of the Vale and The Lord of Riverrun. instead if just the North. Furthermore, Jon could possibly take both Robert Aryn (if he survives) and Rickon as a ward.

This is of course just an ideal scenario. If the alliance marries an outside party, the outsider could undermine S.T.A.B. I would rather they strengthened their bonds between one another with wardships and marriage alliance until they have something ironclad.

Why would an outsider undermine S.T.A.B? Both of them with other houses bring in the loyalty of two outside factions and join it to the power of the Starks itself. Isn't that how S.T.A.B started out in the first place?

This is assuming Jon or Sansa will be willing to marry politically at the end of the series, which is not certain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Why would an outsider undermine S.T.A.B? Both of them with other houses bring in the loyalty of two outside factions and join it to the power of the Starks itself. Isn't that how S.T.A.B started out in the first place?

This is assuming Jon or Sansa will be willing to marry politically at the end of the series, which is not certain.

To shift power into the outsider's favor. Being part of S.T.A.B. isn't as nice as being the leader of your very own alliance. Honestly, I thought the alliance had been undermined before, by the Lannisters.

I think it is important to have a bit of familiarity and trust before creating an alliance. If you don't you will end up like the Tyrells and the Lannisters, antagonistic and posturing for power. My need for the parties to be on good terms limits the number of people I see as good match.

Edited by King Crow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Britisher said:

I know that this theory is an unpopular one as it insinuates some form incest between Jon and Sansa and contradicts the popular endorsement of Daenerys and Jon ending up together by the end of the series, but hear me out!

There's no solid evidence that Jon and Sansa will end up together, but there are some strong indications which I will outline below:

What are your thoughts on this? 

 

About Jon and Daenerys: while I think it is the most likely union to happen, there are some considerable problems to it apart from the fact they have not met. If the most popular theory proves correct and Jon is Lyanna's and Raegar's son, Jon and Daenerys are not just nephew and aunt. We tend to forget that Raegar's and Daenerys's parents were also siblings, as they were their grandparents. That moves them closer to brother and sister, or at best half-brother and half-sister than just nephew and aunt. To make that a little more graphic, that would be the equivalent of Joffrey marrying Myrcella and from this union, their own grandson marrying their own daughter. Not a pretty picture, is it? I do not think that the readers truly want that for Jon or even Daenerys. There is also the problem that people of the Seven Kingdoms and their dominant faiths did not look favourably on incest, so I suppose that was not one of the better qualities of the Targaryen dynasty.

 

Now back to the main question. There are some very good points in those analyses, but that does not mean anything. Every analysis about the books comes from a different perspective, as they should be. The problem is that every one of them comes from outsiders, people like us who read the books and try to decipher their meaning and what the writer wants. However, almost no one knows what George R. R. Martin truly wants and how he wants to end his story, except from those to whom Martin has revealed the ending. Those people will not write analysis on George R. R. Martin's work until it is completed and the ending is revealed.

 

There are some hints (I do not like the term foreshadowing because we do not know how things will play out) about a Jon/Sansa romance or union across the books. However, it is the couple with the less amount of hints between the most popular couples of this book series. So to answer your main question, can Jon and Sansa become romantically involved? Yes, they can and there are some chances for that. Will Jon and Sansa become romantically involved? In all honesty, no one in these forums can give you a certain answer, except from George R. R. Martin himself. Every answer we can give you, comes from different perspective, understanding of the text and personal preference.

 

Now, I would like to give you some more information about this matter if you like and judge for yourself if they hold any significance. While incest among the Stark family members was unlikely, there is one case that stands out, at least to my own eyes. It was when Sansa Stark (not that one) married Jonnel Stark, who was her father’s half-brother (same father, different mothers). Jonnel parents were Cregan and Lynara (who was Cregan's last wife).

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Sansa_Stark_(daughter_of_Rickon)

 

There is also that one if you are interest on the subject.

http://blindestspot.tumblr.com/post/50820774456/jonxsansa

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, it will be Jeyne Poole, Sansa's best friend, the fArya. GRRM did originally intend for Jon and Arya to be the final shipping, and Jeyne is one her way to Jon, who will come back, as we all know. It is probably what will happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, TheDemonicStark said:

No, it will be Jeyne Poole, Sansa's best friend, the fArya. GRRM did originally intend for Jon and Arya to be the final shipping, and Jeyne is one her way to Jon, who will come back, as we all know. It is probably what will happen.

Wut?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Sorry to interfere for a mostly not-so-much on topic issue.

I disagree with the OP's view but I am not interested to discuss this. I am, however, very interested in discussing northern politics as they are starting to take shape and may unfold in the Winds of Winter.

Discussing politics and strategies, we must take into account that, in the books, logistics and/or other elements that facilitate or hinder the various players' plans do matter and are carefully presented in advance by the author. And there's the thing, regarding any Vale army: they can't use the High road; it's already closed by snow, from automn even... So any Vale army, in order to go anywhere, must necessarily go by sea. Specifically, to go to the North, they need the cooperation of White Harbour. There are many practical reasons why they just can't land on some northern shore and march from there on their own, just a little thought about what it takes for an army to march through an unknown and not necessarily/always friendly territory will do to underline the difficulty.

The thing is that White Harbour, in the books, is the seat of a player who has his own political agenda that not necessarily alignes with that of Littlefinger; in fact, Wyman Manderly is working towards getting in hand his own Stark figurehead (one that trumps Sansa's claim, even more so). On the positive side, in case of an alliance, is that Manderly owns and can provide the fleet to transport the Vale army (we don't know if the Vale does or doesn't have an adequate fleet to take them accross, but Manderly's fleet will come handy anyway - and it must be used for something...) So how will it come to play? There are quite a few possibilities, but the bottom line is that it will be much more complicated than simply, oh, here comes an army out of nowhere. It might be that there's an inter-Stark "dance" (well, of fractions with Stark figureheads, mainly) on the emergence of Robb's will, being contested by the argument that it was made under wrong premises? I do expect Robb's will to play a role, and it's also possible that Sansa's storyline converges with the nothern plot in that way, but I'd rather hope that the Vale army (and most importantly, food, let's not forget...) goes North, on Sansa's --not Littlefinger's-- call, to help with the more important danger that's ante portas at the Wall, lest we forget.

We have no indication of the size of the Arryn fleet although there are plenty of options available for Sansa and Littlefinger, the most favourable of which would be striking an alliance with House Manderly to provide passage for the Knights of the Vale through the White Knife. Alternatively, House Umber or the remainder of Stannis's fleet could provide passage for the Knights of the Vale to Eastwatch by the Sea. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, WolfClaw said:

 

About Jon and Daenerys: while I think it is the most likely union to happen, there are some considerable problems to it apart from the fact they have not met. If the most popular theory proves correct and Jon is Lyanna's and Raegar's son, Jon and Daenerys are not just nephew and aunt. We tend to forget that Raegar's and Daenerys's parents were also siblings, as they were their grandparents. That moves them closer to brother and sister, or at best half-brother and half-sister than just nephew and aunt. To make that a little more graphic, that would be the equivalent of Joffrey marrying Myrcella and from this union, their own grandson marrying their own daughter. Not a pretty picture, is it? I do not think that the readers truly want that for Jon or even Daenerys. There is also the problem that people of the Seven Kingdoms and their dominant faiths did not look favourably on incest, so I suppose that was not one of the better qualities of the Targaryen dynasty.

 

Now back to the main question. There are some very good points in those analyses, but that does not mean anything. Every analysis about the books comes from a different perspective, as they should be. The problem is that every one of them comes from outsiders, people like us who read the books and try to decipher their meaning and what the writer wants. However, almost no one knows what George R. R. Martin truly wants and how he wants to end his story, except from those to whom Martin has revealed the ending. Those people will not write analysis on George R. R. Martin's work until it is completed and the ending is revealed.

 

There are some hints (I do not like the term foreshadowing because we do not know how things will play out) about a Jon/Sansa romance or union across the books. However, it is the couple with the less amount of hints between the most popular couples of this book series. So to answer your main question, can Jon and Sansa become romantically involved? Yes, they can and there are some chances for that. Will Jon and Sansa become romantically involved? In all honesty, no one in these forums can give you a certain answer, except from George R. R. Martin himself. Every answer we can give you, comes from different perspective, understanding of the text and personal preference.

 

Now, I would like to give you some more information about this matter if you like and judge for yourself if they hold any significance. While incest among the Stark family members was unlikely, there is one case that stands out, at least to my own eyes. It was when Sansa Stark (not that one) married Jonnel Stark, who was her father’s half-brother (same father, different mothers). Jonnel parents were Cregan and Lynara (who was Cregan's last wife).

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Sansa_Stark_(daughter_of_Rickon)

 

There is also that one if you are interest on the subject.

http://blindestspot.tumblr.com/post/50820774456/jonxsansa

 

 

Thank you for that interesting and informative post :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Britisher said:

We have no indication of the size of the Arryn fleet although there are plenty of options available for Sansa and Littlefinger, the most favourable of which would be striking an alliance with House Manderly to provide passage for the Knights of the Vale through the White Knife. Alternatively, House Umber or the remainder of Stannis's fleet could provide passage for the Knights of the Vale to Eastwatch by the Sea. 

House Umber fleet?! Ugh... I guess logistics & political agendas is not everyone's cup of tea :).

Have a nice day.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TheDemonicStark said:

No, it will be Jeyne Poole, Sansa's best friend, the fArya. GRRM did originally intend for Jon and Arya to be the final shipping, and Jeyne is one her way to Jon, who will come back, as we all know. It is probably what will happen.

You keep saying that, over and over and over again, but you never provide any evidence. And your sole argument seems to be based on Martin's original outline, even though it's been pointed out by many that the outline means nothing and that Martin, according to his own words, was "making shit up". 

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Wut?

Right?

47 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Yes. Sansa will marry Jon, while Mance plays the banjo. 

And Wun Wun will be the flower girl giant. :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

House Umber fleet?! Ugh... I guess logistics & political agendas is not everyone's cup of tea :).

Have a nice day.

 

At the feast in Winterfell in A Clash of Kings the Umbers request a fleet to fight the wildlings in the Bay of Seals. They are told to work with the Manderlys. 

I did not mean to send that post :P

Edited by Britisher

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Britisher said:

At the feast in Winterfell in A Clash of Kings the Umbers request a fleet to fight the wildlings in the Bay of Seals. They are told to work with the Manderlys. 

Hother Umber says they need longwships, yes, and Rodrik tells them to work with the Manderlys. Rodrik goes on and says they, the Umbers, have plenty of pines and oak, and that Manderly has the shipwrights. So, that fleet is the fleet Davos sees [a part of] when he's in White Harbour. The Umbers provided the wood, basically, but they have no fleet. 

ACoK, Bran

Hother wanted ships. “There’s wildlings stealing down from the north, more than I’ve ever seen before. They cross the Bay of Seals in little boats and wash up on our shores. The crows in Eastwatch are too few to stop them, and they go to ground quick as weasels. It’s longships we need, aye, and strong men to sail them. The Greatjon took too many. Half our harvest is gone to seed for want of arms to swing the scythes.”
Ser Rodrik pulled at his whiskers. “You have forests of tall pine and old oak. Lord Manderly has shipwrights and sailors in plenty. Together you ought to be able to float enough longships to guard both your coasts.
“Manderly?” Mors Umber snorted. “That great waddling sack of suet? His own people mock him as Lord Lamprey, I’ve heard. The man can scarce walk. If you stuck a sword in his belly, ten thousand eels would wriggle out.”
“He is fat,” Ser Rodrik admitted, “but he is not stupid. You will work with him, or the king will know the reason why.” And to Bran’s astonishment, the truculent Umbers agreed to do as he commanded, though not without grumbling.”
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Right?

Dead wrong. :P  I was trying to make a joke and failed.:leaving:

Edited by Jon's Queen Consort

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now