Jump to content

Why didn't Tywin allow Tyrion to go with Gerion?


dariopatke

Recommended Posts

People overestimate Tywin's hatred of Tyrion

 

Remember, we mostly known Tywin's perceptive of Tyrion from Tyrion himself in his POV chapters, who has plenty of reason to dislike his father, but I do believe until Joffrey's poisoning Tywin never truly seeked to kill Tyrion, remember, Kinslaying is a strong taboo in Westeros.

Of course, Tywin does not like very much his son, but he has a hatred different from Cersei, per example, who truly wants to kill Tyrion

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, King Edd of House Tollet said:

People overestimate Tywin's hatred of Tyrion

 

Remember, we mostly known Tywin's perceptive of Tyrion from Tyrion himself in his POV chapters, who has plenty of reason to dislike his father, but I do believe until Joffrey's poisoning Tywin never truly seeked to kill Tyrion, remember, Kinslaying is a strong taboo in Westeros.

Of course, Tywin does not like very much his son, but he has a hatred different from Cersei, per example, who truly wants to kill Tyrion

Well he didnt seek to kill him even after Joff died. He was offered to go to Wall which is the best you can do after comitting regicide (well, Jaime was in different situation).

You are right about overestimated hatred. In Tyrion I SoS we see Tywin giving Tyrion compliments about battle and visiting him before, but Tyrion could not see this because he was blind from his hatred (Tywin was not and he could see how Tyrion could be valuable sometimes).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, dariopatke said:

So uncle Gerion announced to go to Valirya and find Brothroar and Tyrion liked this idea. He asked Tywin to go, but didnt allow him to go because it was "fool's quest", but isnt this perfect way to get rid of unwanted son?

I think Tywin was ashamed of Tyrion, He probably didn't like the idea of Tyrion traveling around the world and reminding everyone he met that Tywin Lannister fathered a dwarf.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

I think Tywin was ashamed of Tyrion, He probably didn't like the idea of Tyrion traveling around the world and reminding everyone he met that Tywin Lannister fathered a dwarf.

This, Tyrion would be the first Lannister many of these people ever laid eyes on, having a waddling dwarf as first impression of house Lannister is an embarrassment Tywin would not allow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

I think Tywin was ashamed of Tyrion, He probably didn't like the idea of Tyrion traveling around the world and reminding everyone he met that Tywin Lannister fathered a dwarf.

He was, but in Old Volantis amd Valirya name Lannister wasnt as important as it was in 7K, they simply wont care.

1 minute ago, fenr1s said:

This, Tyrion would be the first Lannister many of these people ever laid eyes on, having a waddling dwarf as first impression of house Lannister is an embarrassment Tywin would not allow.

And he will have Gerion by his side.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

And Tywin was quite willing to marry Tyrion to a rich and powerful Westerosi House. I really can't see that the reason for not allowing his 15 year old dwarf son to go travelling around Essos.

No, that would be *exactly* the reason -- if Tyrion gets himself killed on some "fool's quest", Tywin can't marry Tyrion to a [rich and powerful] Westerosi house.  Going to Valyria isn't just touring Essos.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, dariopatke said:

So uncle Gerion announced to go to Valirya and find Brothroar and Tyrion liked this idea. He asked Tywin to go, but didnt allow him to go because it was "fool's quest", but isnt this perfect way to get rid of unwanted son?

It may be a fools quest, but honorable. Gerion and Tyrion can be seen as brave people who go to take back something that was theirs and lost long ago. There was low chances of that plan to succed so Tyrion would be out of picture. Worst case scenario, he gets Valiryan blade he desperately wanted.

Cos Gerion was on some janky shit

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, dariopatke said:

He was, but in Old Volantis amd Valirya name Lannister wasnt as important as it was in 7K, they simply wont care.

No. You're right. They wouldn't have cared one little bit. But Tywin would have.

 

55 minutes ago, King Edd of House Tollet said:

People overestimate Tywin's hatred of Tyrion

Maybe. But not without good reason. The conversation they had when Tyrion said that he wanted Casterly Rock was pretty harsh and hateful.

But I don't think Tywin ever planned to have Tyrion executed. I believe he wanted him sent to the Wall. The end of his trial by Combat, might have forced Tywin's hand, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, dariopatke said:

So uncle Gerion announced to go to Valirya and find Brothroar and Tyrion liked this idea. He asked Tywin to go, but didnt allow him to go because it was "fool's quest", but isnt this perfect way to get rid of unwanted son?

It may be a fools quest, but honorable. Gerion and Tyrion can be seen as brave people who go to take back something that was theirs and lost long ago. There was low chances of that plan to succed so Tyrion would be out of picture. Worst case scenario, he gets Valiryan blade he desperately wanted.

Mmmmmm Brothroar. The most powerful of all the crockpot stew ingredients.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

He was, but in Old Volantis amd Valirya name Lannister wasnt as important as it was in 7K, they simply wont care.

And he will have Gerion by his side.

 

Respect for wealth and power is universal, some grand visiting noble from Casterly Rock wouldn't go unnoticed. They'd probably be invited for feasts and such by various powerful people in each city they visited. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

No. You're right. They wouldn't have cared one little bit. But Tywin would have.

 

Maybe. But not without good reason. The conversation they had when Tyrion said that he wanted Casterly Rock was pretty harsh and hateful.

But I don't think Tywin ever planned to have Tyrion executed. I believe he wanted him sent to the Wall. The end of his trial by Combat, might have forced Tywin's hand, though.

Agreed.

Not really, Tyrion was rightful heir of CR, why push it? Frankly, I just might do the same to someone who doesnt show the smallest peice of gratitude for everything I had done for him in past couple of months. Not to mention that he is spiteful, little creature full of hate (I find his houghts in DwD really annoying and hard to read). 

Again agreed about Wall and tbc.

10 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

 

Respect for wealth and power is universal, some grand visiting noble from Casterly Rock wouldn't go unnoticed. They'd probably be invited for feasts and such by various powerful people in each city they visited. 

Certanly, but would that harm Lannister reputation? If people feast a dwarf only because he is a Lannister... well that shows world how powerful that house is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

Not really, Tyrion was rightful heir of CR, why push it? Frankly, I just might do the same to someone who doesnt show the smallest peice of gratitude for everything I had done for him in past couple of months. Not to mention that he is spiteful, little creature full of hate (I find his houghts in DwD really annoying and hard to read).

Sure. I'm not so much talking about whether or not Tywin's feelings about Tyrion are justified. I for one don't think that they are (not completely anyway,) but that's beside the point. I was just responding to King Edd of House Tollet's comment about people overestimating Tywin;s hatred for Tyrion.

Wrong or right, Tywin seems to despise Tyrion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, dariopatke said:

He was, but in Old Volantis amd Valirya name Lannister wasnt as important as it was in 7K, they simply wont care.

And he will have Gerion by his side.

I dont think he meant to travel with Gerion when he wanted to tour the free cities, asking to sail to Valyria with Gerion happened later.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tywin never actively tried to have Tyrion killed. He might have allowed it to happen after Joffrey's death, and we can only speculate about Tywin's true feelings towards Tyrion. But there are a number of reasons why Tywin could not allow Tyrion to go with Gerion:

  1. Tyrion asked this favor when he was 15 or 16 -- only a few years after the Tysha incident. Maybe Tywin was afraid that Tyrion will fall in love with another unsuitable woman (say a courtesan of Braavos) or whore around in Essos smearing the name of House Lannister. Tyrion is hardly Daemon Targaryen, but Daemon is an example for a rogue scion of a noble Westerosi house that brought shame upon his house by his actions in Free Cities.
  2. Gerion is remembered as pleasant and funny, but irresponsible. It was Gerion who taught Tyrion to tumble and cartwheel. Tywin probably feared that left under Gerion's care, Tyrion will come back head of a mummer's troupe (only half-kidding).
  3. Tywin was right that it was a fool's quest - Gerion had trouble finding sailors for his ship, and the ruins of Valyria has an ill reputation. It was a dangerous adventure to make, and Tywin probably let Gerion go to get rid of him. Tyrion was only a teenager, and Tywin could still find a use for him.
    • Marriage - Tywin was actively trying to make marriage alliances for Tyrion. It is telling that the worst optionTywin tried was Delena Florent. Even if Delena had a bastard son by King Robert,  Florents are a powerful house. If that marriage happened, Tywin could have made good use of it.
    • A worthy heir - If Tyrion married a highborn lady and had a healthy son (or even a daughter), Tywin may have at least considered naming this child as the heir to Casterly Rock. Tywin was not that old - he could ignore Tyrion completely (like Randyll did with Sam) and mould his grandchild to be a true Lannister worthy of Casterly Rock.
    • A different career - We don't know Tywin pushing Tyrion towards careers of septon or maester, but if Tyrion's whoring could be stopped, he could have made a good maester.

Basically, Tywin wanted to keep his options open, and wasn't ready to throw away an important piece in the game of thrones to the whims of dreamers (Gerion and Tyrion).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, fenr1s said:

I dont think he meant to travel with Gerion when he wanted to tour the free cities, asking to sail to Valyria with Gerion happened later.

 

He meant to travel to Free Cities by himself and to Valirya with uncle Gerion.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Other people have already covered many of my thoughts - Tywin didn't want Tyrion to be foolish in public; Gerion would be a bad influence, etc. But I wrote up a lot of my thoughts in a thread about this a few months ago:

Essentially, travel allows Tyrion to learn and grow and free his inner fool. Tywin did not see the idealistic concept of freedom as a useful or realistic way of experiencing the world, and he did not want his son to act the fool in public.

Subsequently, I also realized that there is a link between the author's rich motif around "sewing" and the "sewer" work that Tywin assigns to Tyrion when he keeps him at Casterly Rock instead of allowing him to go overseas. I think that "sewing" symbolizes the work that is necessary to hold the Seven Kingdoms together. By putting Tyrion in charge of sewers and drains, Tywin is actually giving him practical experience in understanding a system. (Since Tywin drowned the Reyne family by plugging up the sewers and drains at Castamere before flooding their mines, he is also helping to ensure that Tyrion can protect the Lannisters from a similar fate.) I know that most people in the forum don't look for clues in the subtext, but the hint here is that Tywin is training Tyrion to be a knowledgeable administrator - possibly a future Hand of the King and/or a future Lord or castellan of Casterly Rock.

If you are willing to look at the mines and sewers of Casterly Rock as the Westerlands counterpart of the Stark crypt at Winterfell, there is a rich line of symbolism there that could be explored. I think the Stark crypt symbolizes a "forge" for rejuvenating Stark weapons (children) using the magic of their ancestors. Is Tyrion reforged as a Lannister by spending time in the tunnels under Casterly Rock? (Tyrion also spends time in the basement of the Red Keep, where the dragon skulls are stored.)

At the same time, Tywin is literally hiding Tyrion under a rock. So you could argue that Tywin has more than one goal in his treatment of Tyrion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, dariopatke said:

 

No, that would be kinslaying. He may have wanted him to disappear but not by his hand. But yet part of him didnt wish him gone. I hate how people denny the fact how complex is Tywin, doubtless one of most interesting characters.

If Tywin wanted him dead he would have been dead by now. It is pretty simple as that. Tywin has no problem with Jaime being a Kingslayer, had no problem with ordering the deaths of innocent royal children and had no regrets about the Red Wedding.

While I agree that Tywin is a complex figure I do not see any evidence that he is deeply affected by the customs of the land. If he wanted Tyrion dead he would have had him killed.

Furthermore your point about Tywin not wanting Tyrion to have a powerful marriage is proven false not by the fact that Tywin had Tyrion's marriage to a commoner annulled while trying to arrange powerful marriage with some of the great Houses in the Realm.

20 hours ago, dariopatke said:

But he could have been killed easily, or recaptured at least which almost happened. But what stopped him from giving couple of knights to look after Tyrion?

He had a few hundred men at his disposal.

Just look at the guards he gave Tyrion to get from the Green Fork to Kings Landing

A column of riders emerged from beneath the portcullis with a clink of steel and a clatter of hooves. Clegane stepped close to the king, one hand on the hilt of his longsword. The visitors were dinted and haggard and dusty, yet the standard they carried was the lion of Lannister, golden on its crimson field. A few wore the red cloaks and mail of Lannister men-at-arms, but more were freeriders and sellswords, armored in oddments and bristling with sharp steel . . . and there were others, monstrous savages out of one of Old Nan's tales, the scary ones Bran used to love.

20 hours ago, dariopatke said:

Yes, but Lannister army was 20k strong with best commander alive, certanly better than 2k Gold Cloaks with questionable morale and 500k hungry men.

Those 20k men would have been at Kings Landing should it have been attacked. Tywin's plan was not to abandon the Capital but to try and deal with other enemies before Renly/Stannis attacked. I thought that was pretty obvious?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

If Tywin wanted him dead he would have been dead by now. It is pretty simple as that. Tywin has no problem with Jaime being a Kingslayer, had no problem with ordering the deaths of innocent royal children and had no regrets about the Red Wedding.

While I agree that Tywin is a complex figure I do not see any evidence that he is deeply affected by the customs of the land. If he wanted Tyrion dead he would have had him killed.

Furthermore your point about Tywin not wanting Tyrion to have a powerful marriage is proven false not by the fact that Tywin had Tyrion's marriage to a commoner annulled while trying to arrange powerful marriage with some of the great Houses in the Realm.

He had a few hundred men at his disposal.

Just look at the guards he gave Tyrion to get from the Green Fork to Kings Landing

A column of riders emerged from beneath the portcullis with a clink of steel and a clatter of hooves. Clegane stepped close to the king, one hand on the hilt of his longsword. The visitors were dinted and haggard and dusty, yet the standard they carried was the lion of Lannister, golden on its crimson field. A few wore the red cloaks and mail of Lannister men-at-arms, but more were freeriders and sellswords, armored in oddments and bristling with sharp steel . . . and there were others, monstrous savages out of one of Old Nan's tales, the scary ones Bran used to love.

Those 20k men would have been at Kings Landing should it have been attacked. Tywin's plan was not to abandon the Capital but to try and deal with other enemies before Renly/Stannis attacked. I thought that was pretty obvious?

That was my point, if Tywin really wanted him dead, he would have sent him to Gerion, or much more likely kill him much before, probably on day he was born.

How can I put this... Part of him wanted Tyrion dead, gone or whatever. But on the other hand he was his son and useful tool in politics.

Wait wait wait, where did I say Tywin never wanted powerful marriages for him? It is more than obvious that he wanted and seeked for good marriages for Tyrion.

Yes, I dont deny that, but I got a feeling he wasnt protected enough, as a matter of fact he almost got recaptured.

Yeah, I dont know why I said it. Actually earlier this week I wrote somewhere how Harrenhall was the smartest thing he could have done...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, dariopatke said:

He meant to travel to Free Cities by himself and to Valirya with uncle Gerion.

 

He definitely wanted to travel the free cities as Gerion did. When did he say he wanted to go to Valyria? I have to admit I don't recall that particular scenario.

Edit: NM found it in ADWD. The more you know!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...