End Game: How War of the Roses predicts the end of GOT [SPOILERS]

[Ixidoru]

Now, before everything SPOILERS

 

 

Now that you are warned, I am gonna try to simplified it quickly. Game of Thrones is a brilliant piece of literature, maybe the best books I have ever read. However, as everything in life, it was a limited (even though big) amount of directions it can be, or at least it should be. And also, it has patterns. And so, what is GRRM pattern? Easy answer: War of the Roses with a Ragnarok ending.

 

So, what does that means? First and foremost, a huge part of GOT characters are based on War of the Roses history. Not only that but more important, the WAY the plot is driven resembles a lot the WotR.

I mean, look at the similarities:

1) The Stark House represents the York house (white rose, grey, soon to be white wolf)

2) The Red Rouse of the Lancaster (Lannister house).

3) Similar characters (attention, I said similar, not equal, or else I wouldn't call GRRM such a great writer):

- King Edwards III=Aerys II: long reign, brilliant in the begining, bad in the end, similar physical look, temperamental, father of the "Black Prince".

- Edward the black prince= Raeghar Targaryen, never ruled, were loved by the people, great knights, fathers of future kings.

- Henry VI=King Robert, both married "Cersei", both died misteriously. Robert also has a lot of Henry VIII in him (great knight as a youngster, a fat donkey later)

- Margaret of Anjou=Cersei, vicious and beautiful queens with lust for power, put all their allies on the court

- Edward of Westminster=Joffrey, son of Margaret/Cersei who liked to see heads on a spike since a young age.

- Richard of York= Ned Stark, both hands of the king, fought against Lencaster for power, both head's ended in a spike. - Edward IV=Robb Stark, both became kings, had a ton of battle victories and both fu**ed their reigns because they changed a fixed marriage for a love marriage, which turned one of their most precious allies, Earl of Warwick (Walder Frey).

- Richard III=Stannis plus Cersei; Richard III claimed his nephew illegitimate, took the power for himself (and his nephew would later dissappear); this first part is Stannis, later part of reign will be Cersei's reign, when he had to meet several rebellions due to his unpopularity, and later when he had to deal with an opponent from the Narrow Sea (France).

Brienne of Tarth=Joana D'arc, I will not even bother to explain this one. I still think Brienne will burn to death.

- Henry Tudor (VII)=Daenerys Targaryen; even the last name starts with a "T" in a clear ressemblance with reality and fiction, just like it happened with the Yorks and the Lancasters; both crossed the narrow sea with supporters that disliked the current ruler, both had a strong claim to the title, and both will rule.

- Jon Snow=Elizabeth of York, that's right, Jon and Elisabeth united the house Stark (coff York) with the reigning king (Tudor was a Lancaster). On this case Jon as a much more beautiful history; it will probably end in house Targaryen, or maybe a new name house, with a red dragon and a white wolf together, just like the red and white roses of Stark and Lancaster made Tudor's banner (Tudors were followed by Stuarts, so that may be a clue for an eventual new named royal house); also while a political marriage, both loved each other, while Elizabeth lived a quit life without political influence even though she had a legit claim to the throne (probably what will happen with Jon and Daenerys).

 

As for the white walkers? They are a mix of the medieval black death with the giants of the Ragnarok. They will came down, tear everything apart. Humans will resist at great cost (just like with the black death), but in the end they survive, they stalemate and the White Walkers retreat in the end of the Winter (they can't be around when is not so cold, like for example during the Spring).

 

So yeah, that's how it goes. Is important to say that after the end of the War of the Roses, the feudal system falls and England enters in the Renaissance, with MUCH less power to the feudal lords. This political change in GOT will probably mirorring the end of the World War I and II, in which a big destruction (war with the walkers) will motivate a huge change in the society, with the end of the "knight" system. Also my guess is that they rebuild the Wall too (yeah foolks, that thing is going down, that's to big of an event to just not happen and GRRM doesn't dissapoint on this matters). So to summarize my guess is that Westeros is rebuild around Daenerys and Jon as king and queen, the feudal system ends, much of the magic dies (dragons included) and they have to rebuilt everything (thank God Tyrion survived). The iron throne will be destroyed, marking the end of the feudal system too. Also GRRM is a huge fan of redeeming characters. So maybe Jaime or Sandor are going down, but whatever happens to then, it will be something epic for sure! GRRM let too many clues for the Tyrion=Twin son, while Cersei and Jaime being Targaryen bastards (Cersei is the female version of Aerys and both liked to inbreed, a Targaryen trait), so my bet is that Jaime is the 3rd head of the dragon (the 3rd Targaryen left, great warrior yet a bastard, mirroring Bryden Rivers' history). My guess is that he is going down with one of that dragons.

 

So there it is folks, how (I think) GOT will end. PS: Ah, and by the way, between Arya and Sansa, I think at least one off them is going down. My bet is on Arya though. PS2: And Sam is definitely telling/reading this history in the end off the books, so he will probably gonna make it to the end.

[Drekinn]

Young Griff is Henry Tudor. Being raised in exile, the Landing of the Golden Company in Westeros and his possible royal heritage cements it. Henry wasn't dicking around in the middle east like Dany does.

[nothatso]

5 hours ago, Drekinn said:

Young Griff is Henry Tudor. Being raised in exile, the Landing of the Golden Company in Westeros and his possible royal heritage cements it. Henry wasn't dicking around in the middle east like Dany does.

He's likely more of a Perkin Warbeck analogue than a Henry VII analogue. He claims to be the younger of two siblings presumed murdered in a tower, of dubious origins, raised in complete secret, etc. He's also a non-PoV character that shows up 5 books into the series and I would wager is unlikely to be a major player for long.

[illinifan]

Agreed.  I finally did recognize the Elizabeth of York-Henry Tudor endgame this season, but they did need to drop hints about it.  The Stuarts are also thrown in because the North is Scotland.  

And I also agree that you are seeing the end of the feudal system and the beginning of the modern state.  Westros institutions have broken down to the point where no one batted an eye about Jon essentially abandoning his command this season.  Most of the great families of Westros have lost their heirs.  Cersei just blew up the Westros equivalent of the Vatican and took power.  The old world is being destroyed and we are seeing the beginnings of the new one being built in its place.  This is why out of all of the villains on the show that I think LF's survival is the most probable.  LF represents the new world as a self-made man.  

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't see it. I can see people have some similarities with each other but not in that way. For example Lyanna is like Margaret Beaufort and yet Jon isn't just like Henry VII. Dany on the other hand cannot be Henry because she was born from the *primary* line, the Targs, and not as a member of a legitimised branch like Henry.

7 hours ago, Drekinn said:

Young Griff is Henry Tudor. Being raised in exile, the Landing of the Golden Company in Westeros and his possible royal heritage cements it. Henry wasn't dicking around in the middle east like Dany does.

FAegon is more Perkin Warbeck than Henry VII.

[Britisher]

I don't believe that the series is an exact parallel of the Wars of the Roses or the politics of England during this period as George RR Martin has been influenced by various events and characters from various periods of history. He has acknowledged this fact himself.

Your analysis is certainly interesting, but I will definitely be taking it with a good pitch of salt.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

12 hours ago, Ixidoru said:

Now, before everything SPOILERS

 

 

Now that you are warned, I am gonna try to simplified it quickly. Game of Thrones is a brilliant piece of literature, maybe the best books I have ever read. However, as everything in life, it was a limited (even though big) amount of directions it can be, or at least it should be. And also, it has patterns. And so, what is GRRM pattern? Easy answer: War of the Roses with a Ragnarok ending.

 

So, what does that means? First and foremost, a huge part of GOT characters are based on War of the Roses history. Not only that but more important, the WAY the plot is driven resembles a lot the WotR.

I mean, look at the similarities:

1) The Stark House represents the York house (white rose, grey, soon to be white wolf)

Can't. The Starks have never been interested in the Iron Throne, for starters, so they really do not fit (although the phonetic resemblance is so alluring). The game for London has been played between the Targaryens and various branches of House Baratheon (one of them being Lannisters in fact, if not in name).

[norwaywolf123]

The houses with any connection to the iron throne are: Targaryen, Blackfyre, Baratheon. Martell and Lannister. If there is any Henry Tudor and/or Elizabeth Woodvile paradox the member will come from one of these lines. I also doubt the Martell as they are Dornish and not Andal southron.

[Morgana Lannister]

12 hours ago, Ixidoru said:

Now, before everything SPOILERS

 

 

Now that you are warned, I am gonna try to simplified it quickly. Game of Thrones is a brilliant piece of literature, maybe the best books I have ever read. However, as everything in life, it was a limited (even though big) amount of directions it can be, or at least it should be. And also, it has patterns. And so, what is GRRM pattern? Easy answer: War of the Roses with a Ragnarok ending.

 

So, what does that means? First and foremost, a huge part of GOT characters are based on War of the Roses history. Not only that but more important, the WAY the plot is driven resembles a lot the WotR.

I mean, look at the similarities:

1) The Stark House represents the York house (white rose, grey, soon to be white wolf)

2) The Red Rouse of the Lancaster (Lannister house).

3) Similar characters (attention, I said similar, not equal, or else I wouldn't call GRRM such a great writer):

- King Edwards III=Aerys II: long reign, brilliant in the begining, bad in the end, similar physical look, temperamental, father of the "Black Prince".

- Edward the black prince= Raeghar Targaryen, never ruled, were loved by the people, great knights, fathers of future kings.

- Henry VI=King Robert, both married "Cersei", both died misteriously. Robert also has a lot of Henry VIII in him (great knight as a youngster, a fat donkey later)

- Margaret of Anjou=Cersei, vicious and beautiful queens with lust for power, put all their allies on the court

- Edward of Westminster=Joffrey, son of Margaret/Cersei who liked to see heads on a spike since a young age.

- Richard of York= Ned Stark, both hands of the king, fought against Lencaster for power, both head's ended in a spike. - Edward IV=Robb Stark, both became kings, had a ton of battle victories and both fu**ed their reigns because they changed a fixed marriage for a love marriage, which turned one of their most precious allies, Earl of Warwick (Walder Frey).

- Richard III=Stannis plus Cersei; Richard III claimed his nephew illegitimate, took the power for himself (and his nephew would later dissappear); this first part is Stannis, later part of reign will be Cersei's reign, when he had to meet several rebellions due to his unpopularity, and later when he had to deal with an opponent from the Narrow Sea (France).

Brienne of Tarth=Joana D'arc, I will not even bother to explain this one. I still think Brienne will burn to death.

- Henry Tudor (VII)=Daenerys Targaryen; even the last name starts with a "T" in a clear ressemblance with reality and fiction, just like it happened with the Yorks and the Lancasters; both crossed the narrow sea with supporters that disliked the current ruler, both had a strong claim to the title, and both will rule.

- Jon Snow=Elizabeth of York, that's right, Jon and Elisabeth united the house Stark (coff York) with the reigning king (Tudor was a Lancaster). On this case Jon as a much more beautiful history; it will probably end in house Targaryen, or maybe a new name house, with a red dragon and a white wolf together, just like the red and white roses of Stark and Lancaster made Tudor's banner (Tudors were followed by Stuarts, so that may be a clue for an eventual new named royal house); also while a political marriage, both loved each other, while Elizabeth lived a quit life without political influence even though she had a legit claim to the throne (probably what will happen with Jon and Daenerys).

 

As for the white walkers? They are a mix of the medieval black death with the giants of the Ragnarok. They will came down, tear everything apart. Humans will resist at great cost (just like with the black death), but in the end they survive, they stalemate and the White Walkers retreat in the end of the Winter (they can't be around when is not so cold, like for example during the Spring).

 

So yeah, that's how it goes. Is important to say that after the end of the War of the Roses, the feudal system falls and England enters in the Renaissance, with MUCH less power to the feudal lords. This political change in GOT will probably mirorring the end of the World War I and II, in which a big destruction (war with the walkers) will motivate a huge change in the society, with the end of the "knight" system. Also my guess is that they rebuild the Wall too (yeah foolks, that thing is going down, that's to big of an event to just not happen and GRRM doesn't dissapoint on this matters). So to summarize my guess is that Westeros is rebuild around Daenerys and Jon as king and queen, the feudal system ends, much of the magic dies (dragons included) and they have to rebuilt everything (thank God Tyrion survived). The iron throne will be destroyed, marking the end of the feudal system too. Also GRRM is a huge fan of redeeming characters. So maybe Jaime or Sandor are going down, but whatever happens to then, it will be something epic for sure! GRRM let too many clues for the Tyrion=Twin son, while Cersei and Jaime being Targaryen bastards (Cersei is the female version of Aerys and both liked to inbreed, a Targaryen trait), so my bet is that Jaime is the 3rd head of the dragon (the 3rd Targaryen left, great warrior yet a bastard, mirroring Bryden Rivers' history). My guess is that he is going down with one of that dragons.

 

So there it is folks, how (I think) GOT will end. PS: Ah, and by the way, between Arya and Sansa, I think at least one off them is going down. My bet is on Arya though. PS2: And Sam is definitely telling/reading this history in the end off the books, so he will probably gonna make it to the end.

I have heard similar parallels with the War of Roses before and granted, yes, not everything is going to be exact or say, just because one character seems to fit one role it doesn't mean, say, his child will fit the historical character's child and so on.  Okay, I am sure the inspiration comes from a wide variety of sources but IMHO there are striking similarities.

In fact, I am going to say that I point blank see the similarities until you get to Henry Tutor and Eliizabeth of York.  Your parallels seem to fit for Daenerys and Jon though but the first time I came across this idea was in the context of Tyrion/Sansa and to me this makes even more sense.  Although I wouldn't discount that both pairs may be inspired on the same source.  What I found striking about Henry VII / Elizabeth as an inspiration for the end game with Tyrion/Sansa is that not only was it a political marriage (which to be honest was more or less always the case) but that he was not considered attractive but very intelligent and that she didn't warm up to him at first but they fell for each other in the end.  However she did subsequently die in childbirth and this is something which okay, there is nothing in the books or show to suggest this yet but I have a sort of bad feeling about.  I just thought it would be totally ironic but very literary if after Tyrion spending most of his life seeking acceptance and love for who he is and resenting his father once he has won her over (okay assuming he will), he lands himself in the very same position his father was at his birth; i.e. Hand to a Targ monarch, widowed with kid/s on tow.  This is probably total tinfoil but I think it sounded fitting.

Now, of course whether any of the Lannister siblings are Targs is still very much up for debate and tons have been written on it.  Personally, sitting on the fence on this one as for now but totally convinced that the dragon riders are:  Dany, Jon and Tyrion.  A political marriage between Jon and Dany now looks more and more possible if we go by Tyrion's advice to her (although not specific) in the last episode of season 6.  I couldn't really think of any other elegible candidate but Jon TBH.  Now, I agree that the dragons will die and if so, will the riders too?  If this is the case, then I think Tyrion gets the chop, in which case I swap my prediction to say that Sansa will have had his child/ren and the Lannister/Stark (Lancaster/York) dynasty will derive from it.

As for the feudal system ending; well something very fundamental to their system will die for sure.  However the Renaissance is characterised by centralised power in the crown -v- various more regional noble houses and I can almost feel the opposite tendency going on in GOT, i.e. several kingdoms gaining independence from the central government in KL, i.e. the North, Iron Borne, Dorne etc.

With Aegon I think no way he is in the end game since although the show is doing its own thing we cannot have a final ruler who is not even in the show, so nope, some early victories and then he gets the chop and I agree that he sounds a lot more like Perkin Warbeck.

As for the Starks not seeking overall power I think we will see that some of the major end game winners will not be power seekers per se or only to a point but we shall see... Interesting analysis though.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

22 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Can't. The Starks have never been interested in the Iron Throne, for starters, so they really do not fit (although the phonetic resemblance is so alluring). The game for London has been played between the Targaryens and various branches of House Baratheon (one of them being Lannisters in fact, if not in name).

You are absolutely right. Most people, included me, forget the small but really importand detail that the Starks had never fought for the Iron Throne. Great observation!

[Morgana Lannister]

18 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

You are absolutely right. Most people, included me, forget the small but really importand detail that the Starks had never fought for the Iron Throne. Great observation!

Okay, why is that?  Because they were always a separate kingdom until recently?  However, Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey so surely if the Starks are accepted as consorts surely their children would end up on the throne.  Sorry, I am a little confused here, but it could be that I don't know the entire IT history as to why the Starks are any different in terms of connection to the throne than the Lannisters or Martells for instance.

[RedShirt47]

13 hours ago, Drekinn said:

Young Griff is Henry Tudor. Being raised in exile, the Landing of the Golden Company in Westeros and his possible royal heritage cements it. Henry wasn't dicking around in the middle east like Dany does.

I agree with this. Henry Tudor was also from a legitimised Bastard line. Aegon likely is of Blackfyre lineage so also a legitimised bastard line.
He may have some Perkin Warbeck similarities also but GRRM can draw on more than one person as inspiration as he is not retelling the wars of roses but taking inspiration from them.

Also Sansa fits well with Elizabeth of York, the younger sister of a murdered king. She would be a good candidate for Aegon to join North and South. Not to mention she is also a Lannister of sorts.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

12 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Okay, why is that?  Because they were always a separate kingdom until recently?  However, Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey so surely if the Starks are accepted as consorts surely their children would end up on the throne.  Sorry, I am a little confused here, but it could be that I don't know the entire IT history as to why the Starks are any different in terms of connection to the throne than the Lannisters or Martells for instance.

Until recently? They were a part of the Realm since the beginning. However they have never fought to become the Royal family, heck this seems to be a tradition for them. They hadn't tried to conquer the other Realms even before the Targs and they seemed content with their land. What Sansa's betrothal has to do with this?

[Morgana Lannister]

11 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Until recently? They were a part of the Realm since the beginning. However they have never fought to become the Royal family, heck this seems to be a tradition for them. They hadn't tried to conquer the other Realms even before the Targs and they seemed content with their land. What Sansa's betrothal has to do with this?

Okay, I was thinking that in my mind if you marry your daughter/son to the heir of the throne your descendants automatically become royal family hence your family is automatically associated with the throne even if you haven't fought for it in terms of winning it by conquest.  Sorry, I am probably missing something in the concept here.  Did the Lannisters or Martells for instance try to win the throne other than by marriage?  I mean, openly.  We all know about Cersei's kids but they are supposed to be Baratheon (who yes, won the throne by conquest).  Just wondering why the strong differentiation here with the Starks.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Okay, I was thinking that in my mind if you marry your daughter/son to the heir of the throne your descendants automatically become royal family hence your family is automatically associated with the throne even if you haven't fought for it in terms of winning it by conquest.  Sorry, I am probably missing something in the concept here.

Yet Sansa's family fought against her in laws to be. 

[Morgana Lannister]

3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Yet Sansa's family fought against her in laws to be. 

well because they chopped off Ned's head but I in the beginning that wasn't the idea so to me they were as open as any other house to make marriages with the current monarch or his family.  Okay there was also the issue that Ned didn't recognise Joffrey any more as the rightful king but that in itself to me doesn't contradict the fact that they were willing to unite their family with the crown in principle.  If they had never sought to take the throne at all they would avoid the idea of procreating with the king/queen, but again, maybe we are talking about different concepts altogether.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

well because they chopped off Ned's head but I in the beginning that wasn't the idea so to me they were as open as any other house to make marriages with the current monarch or his family

Yes but that has nothing to do with the war and what had happened since then.

[Red Man Racey]

20 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

well because they chopped off Ned's head but I in the beginning that wasn't the idea so to me they were as open as any other house to make marriages with the current monarch or his family.  Okay there was also the issue that Ned didn't recognise Joffrey any more as the rightful king but that in itself to me doesn't contradict the fact that they were willing to unite their family with the crown in principle.  If they had never sought to take the throne at all they would avoid the idea of procreating with the king/queen, but again, maybe we are talking about different concepts altogether.

Ned would have agreed to a marriage between his daughter and a Baratheon whether Bob's ample backside was on the throne or not -- it was due to his friendship with the Baratheons and not due to a quest for power. With the exception of Ned's father, Rickard, the Starks had refrained from playing the game of thrones and kept to themselves. There was little, if any, ambition towards greater power and influence in the realm; this is diametrically opposite the behavior of the Lannisters, for example. I think this is the dichotomy that people are highlighting -- Ned may have agreed to a marriage between his house and the throne, but he wasn't out searching for one.

[Morgana Lannister]

6 minutes ago, Red Man Racey said:

Ned would have agreed to a marriage between his daughter and a Baratheon whether Bob's ample backside was on the throne or not -- it was due to his friendship with the Baratheons and not due to a quest for power. With the exception of Ned's father, Rickard, the Starks had refrained from playing the game of thrones and kept to themselves. There was little, if any, ambition towards greater power and influence in the realm; this is diametrically opposite the behavior of the Lannisters, for example. I think this is the dichotomy that people are highlighting -- Ned may have agreed to a marriage between his house and the throne, but he wasn't out searching for one.

Fair point and yes, maybe I get what people were trying to say anyway.  However, I think it is relatively moot for the purpose of the end game whether one's family has a tradition of seeking the throne or not, even whether one seeks the throne or not.  For instance some predict Jon as the end game ruler (possibly with Dany) and it is clear that he is not seeking power for himself.  Nor did he seek becoming King in the North and has landed it in the show at least.  (I am inclined to think that this will happen in the books too or at least he will be Lord of Winterfell or lead northern troops or something; otherwise there seems to be little point in his death and resurrection - IMHO loophole to rid his of his vows for life).  So equally, Sansa might land a position of power, for argument say, or become queen or married to a king or something either because she wishes for it despite family tradition or because she doesn't but lands it anyway.  So basically, my view is that whether the Starks have sought the crown in the past or not this fact does not disqualify them from one of them at least being end game ruler.

[Morgana Lannister]

Now, another point that I have heard mentioned in connection with this War of Roses theme is Sansa as Elizabeth I, i.e. the maiden queen... any thoughts?