Possible New Black Rocks Location/Connection!

[El Dude]

Hello all, I'm new to this site, but quite familiar with the books and I wanted to share something I found and get feedback on the idea(s).

Many of us here seem to be familiar with the greasy/oily black rock/stone theory, but to summarize: (Correct me if I'm wrong.) These specific stones that "seem to drink in the light" are described very similarly--probably deliberately--by GRRM and are found at a handful of places throughout the known world, and are distinct from Valyrian fused rock in that the former predate the later. These locations and rocks are described to be evil, or at the least, quite ominous, and these sites have a power of some sort. From there many theories branch as to what they mean, where they came from, and what they are. Nevertheless they seem like an important hint at a larger--possibly Lovecraftian--story within the ASOIAF world.

Known location of these rocks include the entire city of Ashai, the deserted city Yeen, the Seastone chair of the Iron Isles, the base of the Hightower in Oldtown, the Five Forts and the carved rock idol in Yi Ti. (Let me know if I am missing any.) However none have previously been sighted in Qarth.

Any who, the other day I was rereading one of the last Dany chapters in ACOK, the one in which she enters the House of the Undying/Palace of Dust, and as I read the first few paragraphs my mouth fell open in astonishment:

Quote

Long and low, without towers or windows, it coiled like a stone serpent through a grove of black-barked trees whose inky blue leaves made the stuff of the sorcerous drink the Qartheen called shade of the evening. No other buildings stood near. Black tiles covered the palace roof, many fallen or broken; the motar between the stones was dry and crumbling...

"Blood of my blood," Jhogo said in Dothraki,"this is an evil place, a haunt of ghosts and maegi. See how it drinks the morning sun? Let us go before it drinks us as well."

Perhaps I'm reading into it too much, but the place is clearly described as powerful and ominious/evil with black rocks (tiles) that drink up the light. To me, the House of the Undying seems like another black rock site. Thoughts?

Also, this raises the possibility that the power of shade of the evening comes from the evil black rocks. Thoughts? Have these ideas been previously discussed?

[Macgregor of the North]

Welcome El dude.

Id say good catch there. I'd never noticed the connection myself and would say it's possible the tiles are the same material. 

As to being the source of the shade of the evenings power, that comes from the trees I believe.

Good first post. 

[Michael Mertyns]

The properties certainly have some similarities. It's interesting that some of the tiles are crumbling. From the sound of it, most of the structures made of the Black Stone appear to be made from continuous blocks of stone. Yeen however is made from blocks of the stone, so tiles don't seem too unreasonable

[Macgregor of the North]

9 minutes ago, Michael Mertyns said:

The properties certainly have some similarities. It's interesting that some of the tiles are crumbling. From the sound of it, most of the structures made of the Black Stone appear to be made from continuous blocks of stone. Yeen however is made from blocks of the stone, so tiles don't seem too unreasonable

Also, I suppose if the seastone chair can be chipped or chiselled to the shape of a kraken then smaller parts such as tiles existing doesn't seem to much of a stretch. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

I'm pretty sure the base of the Hightower is the fuzed stone, not the greasy stone.

[Michael Mertyns]

7 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I'm pretty sure the base of the Hightower is the fuzed stone, not the greasy stone.

The stone at the base of the Hightower does resemble the fused stone of the Valyrians. However, it shares differences architecturally from what we know about Valyrian construction. The best example would be Dragonstone; Dragonstone is covered in carvings of various creatures, including as substitutes for functional features like merlons, but the base of the Hightower is very plain. In universe there is speculation that the fortress is of Valyrian origin, but that is far from the only theory.

[rhoynestar]

I think this is a very plausible point as well. The stones do sound like the oily black stone/fused black stone (I lean more toward the former, since it's apparently drinking light, but never sure). Also the black stone would explain why nothing but certain dark trees grow in the area, etc -- oily black stone is generally described as inhospitable to local floral and fauna (I always thought there were some parallels to radioactivity here, and Lovecroft might have too, but I suppose I'll have to re-read Lovecroft to make sure).

Where do the stone tiles come from, then? My quick guess is Asshai. Qarth is relatively close to Asshai, after all (at least closer than most places in the books). It would make sense if it came from outside Qarth, since tiles can be cut and moved much more easily than something like a stone foundation. Warlocks might have been trained in Asshai. An Asshai connection makes sense.

Conversely, maybe the oily black stone was in the ground of this one corner of Qarth as well, and its magical properties gave birth to the warlocks. Not buying it much, but it could work.

Either way fun, fun, fun. I'd love to hear more theorizing on where the stone comes from and what type of effect it might have on magic in general.

 

[Lord Vance II]

53 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I'm pretty sure the base of the Hightower is the fuzed stone, not the greasy stone.

I've always understood it as there being two different types of "black stone." There's the "oily" blacks stone that is found in Asshai, the Seastone Chair and the frog statue in the Summer Isles. And now possibly the House of the Undying (great catch)

And then there's the fused black stone that is made with dragonfire and fire magic. This is the type that forms the base of the Hightower, the 5 Forts in the far east and the inner wall of Volantis. 

The fused stone is less a question of "what" and "how" as "who" and "why," since the seemingly Valyrian craft is in places where we have no evidence of Valyrian activity. The oily is a total mystery, most people attribute it to some elder race that won't impact the story and as an H.P Lovecraft/Cthulu shoutout. 

4 hours ago, El_Dude said:

Perhaps I'm reading into it too much, but the place is clearly described as powerful and ominious/evil with black rocks (tiles) that drink up the light. To me, the House of the Undying seems like another black rock site. Thoughts?

Again, great catch. The oily black stone is one of my favorite mysteries in the series because there's hardly any real evidence, but it could potentially be so important, or not important at all. 

I've always thought that the base of the oldest tower at Winterfell is made of black stone, fused or oily. I have absolutely no founding for this belief other than my gut. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

3 hours ago, Michael Mertyns said:

The stone at the base of the Hightower does resemble the fused stone of the Valyrians. However, it shares differences architecturally from what we know about Valyrian construction. The best example would be Dragonstone; Dragonstone is covered in carvings of various creatures, including as substitutes for functional features like merlons, but the base of the Hightower is very plain. In universe there is speculation that the fortress is of Valyrian origin, but that is far from the only theory.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

I've always understood it as there being two different types of "black stone." There's the "oily" blacks stone that is found in Asshai, the Seastone Chair and the frog statue in the Summer Isles. And now possibly the House of the Undying (great catch)

And then there's the fused black stone that is made with dragonfire and fire magic. This is the type that forms the base of the Hightower, the 5 Forts in the far east and the inner wall of Volantis. 

The fused stone is less a question of "what" and "how" as "who" and "why," since the seemingly Valyrian craft is in places where we have no evidence of Valyrian activity. The oily is a total mystery, most people attribute it to some elder race that won't impact the story and as an H.P Lovecraft/Cthulu shoutout. 

Again, great catch. The oily black stone is one of my favorite mysteries in the series because there's hardly any real evidence, but it could potentially be so important, or not important at all. 

I've always thought that the base of the oldest tower at Winterfell is made of black stone, fused or oily. I have absolutely no founding for this belief other than my gut. 

Yes I'm familiar with it, I was just trying to point out the error in a polite way.  The Hightower resembles the structures on Lorath and Leng.  My own theory is that it Oldtown was founded by the Old Ones, as they are known on Leng.  The skeletons found on Lorath are of humanoids larger than humans but smaller than giants, also related I think is that the people of Leng are extremely tall.  There are also allusions to skinchanging on both islands, as the prists of Lorath cover their eyes to open their 3rd eye and on Leng there is mention of monkeys being entirely too smart.

[Maester of Valyria]

Hi there El_Dude, welcome to the forums!

Really good first post, well done. The Black Stone is one of the most tantalising mysteries in the Known World and it's so good to have fresh ideas for them.

That said, a few pointers:

3 hours ago, El_Dude said:

These locations and rocks are described to be evil, or at the least, quite ominous, and these sites have a power of some sort.

AFAIR, the Hightower base and Seastone Chair do not carry any ominous connotations (although you can speculate about the 'Reapers of Pyke' etc).

6 hours ago, El_Dude said:

the carved rock idol in Yi Ti. (Let me know if I am missing any.)

I'm afraid I don't recall this rock idol. Do you perhaps mean the Toad Stone on the Isle of Toads in Sothoryos?

Quote

Black tiles covered the palace roof, many fallen or broken; the mortar between the stones was dry and crumbling...

The Black Stone seems to be universally extremely durable (with the debatable exception of Yeen). The word 'broken' therefore raises some alarm bells for me.

In addition I do not believe we are ever explicitly told whether any of the structures use mortar of any sort, and we know that some do not (Five Forts, Hightower; the fused Black Stone structures).

 

Regardless: an amazing first post, and keep up the good work: you've earned that username! See you around the forurms

[El Dude]

Thank you for the welcomes @Macgregor of the North @rhoynestar @Lord Vance IIand @Maester of Valyria. I'm still pretty surprised that this site isn't completely infested with trolls and that discussions don't devolve into flame wars. It's great to be here! I can't wait to put some more ideas into existing posts and start a few more new ones.

Thank you all for posting and let me address some of the issues that were brought up:

I realize that shade of the evening comes from the trees at the HOTU (specifically the leaves on the trees), but I had the image in my head that these trees extract the greasy/oily/evil substance from the black stones in the ground and then deposit it in the leaves in a form that human could process, then ingest, and hallucinate. The direct textual evidence to support this theory is fairly weak now that I take a second look at it, but I'm still fond of the theory.

I did miss the statue on the Isle of the toads, but I was also thinking of the meteorite idol whom was worshiped by the Bloodstone Emperor. Which is also perhaps not greasy/oily but sure seemed to be evil/ominous.

Quote

The Black Stone seems to be universally extremely durable (with the debatable exception of Yeen). The word 'broken' therefore raises some alarm bells for me.

In addition I do not believe we are ever explicitly told whether any of the structures use mortar of any sort, and we know that some do not (Five Forts, Hightower; the fused Black Stone structures).

You are right to be alarmed Maester of Valyria, I also consider the black stones to be exceedingly durable, so this is a red flag and I missed it completely! Also, GRRM makes note that there is no motar used in any major black stone site (Ashai or Yeen)! Thus, I'm now dubious of my original theory, but let me offer a counter one.

Perhaps the HOTU was not built by the same ones (Old Ones?) that built the Ashai or Yeen, but was constructed by the early warlocks with black stone that was taken from a different site. This would explain the motar that is breaking, and might explain why the rocks are breaking too. Perhaps the stones are less durable when they are moved from their "original" place, or maybe they can be broken after centuries of exposure to the elements.

[Pain killer Jane]

6 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

 

Yes I'm familiar with it, I was just trying to point out the error in a polite way.  The Hightower resembles the structures on Lorath and Leng.  My own theory is that it Oldtown was founded by the Old Ones, as they are known on Leng.  The skeletons found on Lorath are of humanoids larger than humans but smaller than giants, also related I think is that the people of Leng are extremely tall.  There are also allusions to skinchanging on both islands, as the prists of Lorath cover their eyes to open their 3rd eye and on Leng there is mention of monkeys being entirely too smart.

Evolett, pointed out that perhaps the skinchangers from Leng are tiger/cat skinchangers since Leng has such a high population of tigers. I think she also pointed out that Maegi the frog was perhaps from Leng as Lord Spicer was known to be travel far for spices. This is probably why Jeyne's character was cut out in the tv show and Tulisa Meagyr was introduced since she is from a family of that are very prominent Tigers in Volantis. 

[Pain killer Jane]

13 hours ago, El_Dude said:

Hello all, I'm new to this site, but quite familiar with the books and I wanted to share something I found and get feedback on the idea(s).

Many of us here seem to be familiar with the greasy/oily black rock/stone theory, but to summarize: (Correct me if I'm wrong.) These specific stones that "seem to drink in the light" are described very similarly--probably deliberately--by GRRM and are found at a handful of places throughout the known world, and are distinct from Valyrian fused rock in that the former predate the later. These locations and rocks are described to be evil, or at the least, quite ominous, and these sites have a power of some sort. From there many theories branch as to what they mean, where they came from, and what they are. Nevertheless they seem like an important hint at a larger--possibly Lovecraftian--story within the ASOIAF world.

Known location of these rocks include the entire city of Ashai, the deserted city Yeen, the Seastone chair of the Iron Isles, the base of the Hightower in Oldtown, the Five Forts and the carved rock idol in Yi Ti. (Let me know if I am missing any.) However none have previously been sighted in Qarth.

Any who, the other day I was rereading one of the last Dany chapters in ACOK, the one in which she enters the House of the Undying/Palace of Dust, and as I read the first few paragraphs my mouth fell open in astonishment:

Perhaps I'm reading into it too much, but the place is clearly described as powerful and ominious/evil with black rocks (tiles) that drink up the light. To me, the House of the Undying seems like another black rock site. Thoughts?

Also, this raises the possibility that the power of shade of the evening comes from the evil black rocks. Thoughts? Have these ideas been previously discussed?

Good catch. It has been a long time since I read through those passages. I only ever marked the prophesies in The House of the Undying for quick reference. 

[Maester of Valyria]

13 hours ago, El_Dude said:

I'm still pretty surprised that this site isn't completely infested with trolls and that discussions don't devolve into flame wars. It's great to be here! I can't wait to put some more ideas into existing posts and start a few more new ones.

Don't worry about that: this site is generally extremely welcoming. As long as you can defend your position you'll be fine, even if people disagree with you.

13 hours ago, El_Dude said:

I realize that shade of the evening comes from the trees at the HOTU (specifically the leaves on the trees), but I had the image in my head that these trees extract the greasy/oily/evil substance from the black stones in the ground and then deposit it in the leaves in a form that human could process, then ingest, and hallucinate. The direct textual evidence to support this theory is fairly weak now that I take a second look at it, but I'm still fond of the theory.

That is an excellent idea. Do you have any thoughts on the trees' similarities to weirwoods?

13 hours ago, El_Dude said:

I did miss the statue on the Isle of the toads, but I was also thinking of the meteorite idol whom was worshiped by the Bloodstone Emperor. Which is also perhaps not greasy/oily but sure seemed to be evil/ominous.

Ah of course; my bad.

13 hours ago, El_Dude said:

You are right to be alarmed Maester of Valyria, I also consider the black stones to be exceedingly durable, so this is a red flag and I missed it completely! Also, GRRM makes note that there is no motar used in any major black stone site (Ashai or Yeen)! Thus, I'm now dubious of my original theory, but let me offer a counter one.

Perhaps the HOTU was not built by the same ones (Old Ones?) that built the Ashai or Yeen, but was constructed by the early warlocks with black stone that was taken from a different site. This would explain the motar that is breaking, and might explain why the rocks are breaking too. Perhaps the stones are less durable when they are moved from their "original" place, or maybe they can be broken after centuries of exposure to the elements.

Is that from an SSM?

That is a very interesting proposition, and it would fit with the warlock's seeming scavenging and decaying image. This would certainly explain the mortar, and I suppose possibly the broken tiles as well.

[rhoynestar]

16 hours ago, El_Dude said:

Thank you for the welcomes @Macgregor of the North @rhoynestar @Lord Vance IIand @Maester of Valyria. I'm still pretty surprised that this site isn't completely infested with trolls and that discussions don't devolve into flame wars. It's great to be here! I can't wait to put some more ideas into existing posts and start a few more new ones.

Not at all. Always lovely to have a discussion with a new non-troll and non-flamer. I'm relatively new here too but it's been quite interesting at times, and of course fairly cordial with people willing to reply to the more serious (and the more serious churning out quite good theories at times, too).

Has it maybe occurred to you that if this is the first known case of oily black stone with mortar in our (GRRM) world, it must be of some symbolic value? In this case stolen magic from Asshai leads to a breakdown in an alien environment that is non-native to black stone, I would venture to suggest. Like many things in this world, outside its natural habitat magic may have to adapt or die. This is a case of adaptation failing, I suppose, since the warlocks are apparently on the decline. GRRM is great in this respect -- another implication for us to munch on.

 

[hiemal]

I am convinced that the Shade-of-the-Evening trees are in fact weirwoods that have been corrupted by exposure to Oily Black Stone.

[El Dude]

@Maester of Valyria, @rhoynestar GRRM made some claim about the notable lack of motar at a black stone site, and I thought it refered to all sites or at least to Yeen and Asshai, but it was about the base of the Hightower:

Quote

Most maesters accept the common wisdom that declares it to be of Valyrian construction, for its massive walls and labyrinthine interiors are all of solid rock, with no hint of joint or motar, no chisel marks of any kind, a type of contruction that is seen elsewhere, most notably in the dragonroads of the Freehold of Valyria, and the Black Walls that protect the heart of Old Volantis.

GRRM at the least does not make any motar claims one way or another about Asshai or Yeen (that I can find), just that the large greasy/oily blocks can be huge. Which of course begs the question, how are they bound together? He doesn't say.

I'd like to think that the details of the crumbling motar and the broken black tiles is note worthy, and tells us that the stones were pilaged, crudely re-assembled, and are slowly losing/releasing their magic properties. However, these details may just be the rich, vivid details GRRM wanted in the book as a description of the HOTU, as a house in decay.

On that note, one thing I want to bring up is GRRM has been constantly making up more of his world as he writes. His world at the end of GOT is not the same as it currently is; he has been doing a lot more world building and fleshing out of concepts as the series has progressed over the 20+ year he has been writing. So when we look back at his earlier books, particularly GOT and COK, there are likely details that he wished he included or would want changed in order to make a more fluent/congruent series. Which is just another way of saying, let's be cautious.

@hiemal @Maester of Valyria  The possibility of the shade of the eveving trees being Weirwoods is an intriguing possibility, but at this point I'm not buying stock in that theory. First off, there is precious little description of those trees; the only thing we know for sure are that the trees have black bark and blue leaves. Also when Dany walks beneth the trees its darker than she would expect. That's it (as far as I know). The wiki page suggest connections to the ironwood of Westeros, or ebony trees of the Summer Islands, but I don't buy those connections either. (Although, when ironwoods are burned they give off blue flames. This can be explained by simple chemistry; blue flames are very high heat/energy (think welding torches)  if a very hard, fuel-dense wood burns very intensely it could give off blue flames as well.)

We only see those black-barked trees in one place, and I imagine their upkeep is fairly expensive, knowledge intensive, and requires magic. I think these tress are just another magical tree. There are many plants that exist in the GRRM world that don't in real life (weirwoods, ghost grass, ironwood) so another type of magical tree has precedence and does not have to be related to weirwoods. I think weirwoods only grow in Westeros, and are picky trees. I get the feeling that weirwoods would be resistent to the type of magic and perversion that would make the bark black and the leaves blue; I think they would die before succumbing to that intense corruption. However, the weirwoods are thought to take up the blood/magic/power of human sacrifices so it may be posible.

[Lord Vance II]

10 hours ago, El Dude said:

I'd like to think that the details of the crumbling motar and the broken black tiles is note worthy, and tells us that the stones were pilaged, crudely re-assembled, and are slowly losing/releasing their magic properties. However, these details may just be the rich, vivid details GRRM wanted in the book as a description of the HOTU, as a house in decay.

I could see this...or they're just an imitation. I could see the Warlocks knowing of the stones power (or at least know something's up with it,) but being unable to quarry any due to its durability or move the massive slabs, do their best to imitate the stone in a form they could use. Maybe there is magic to them, but not the same ancient magic of the original stones. 

On 7/22/2016 at 5:24 PM, El Dude said:

Also, GRRM makes note that there is no motar used in any major black stone site

This is more of a random thought...but do the black stone ringforts sound an awful lot like Storm's End? The castle is obviously not made of the same stone, but it's said to have stonework so precise that the wind cannot catch any hold, so there are seams, but barely. Plus Storm's End without it's drum in the middle is essentially just a giant ring. Maybe Bran the Builder studied the base of the Hightower?

[Maester of Valyria]

13 hours ago, El Dude said:

GRRM at the least does not make any motar claims one way or another about Asshai or Yeen (that I can find), just that the large greasy/oily blocks can be huge. Which of course begs the question, how are they bound together? He doesn't say.

I'd like to think that the details of the crumbling motar and the broken black tiles is note worthy, and tells us that the stones were pilaged, crudely re-assembled, and are slowly losing/releasing their magic properties. However, these details may just be the rich, vivid details GRRM wanted in the book as a description of the HOTU, as a house in decay.

I'm becoming more and more inclined towards this point of view.

 

13 hours ago, El Dude said:

On that note, one thing I want to bring up is GRRM has been constantly making up more of his world as he writes. His world at the end of GOT is not the same as it currently is; he has been doing a lot more world building and fleshing out of concepts as the series has progressed over the 20+ year he has been writing. So when we look back at his earlier books, particularly GOT and COK, there are likely details that he wished he included or would want changed in order to make a more fluent/congruent series. Which is just another way of saying, let's be cautious.

This is something that I've always found interesting: how much of the worldbuilding did GRRM do before Game, and how much of the stuff that he's added in afterwards will be relevant to the storyline? But as you say it means we have to be cautious when making extrapolations from the books.

13 hours ago, El Dude said:

The possibility of the shade of the eveving trees being Weirwoods is an intriguing possibility, but at this point I'm not buying stock in that theory. First off, there is precious little description of those trees; the only thing we know for sure are that the trees have black bark and blue leaves. Also when Dany walks beneth the trees its darker than she would expect. That's it (as far as I know). The wiki page suggest connections to the ironwood of Westeros, or ebony trees of the Summer Islands, but I don't buy those connections either. (Although, when ironwoods are burned they give off blue flames. This can be explained by simple chemistry; blue flames are very high heat/energy (think welding torches)  if a very hard, fuel-dense wood burns very intensely it could give off blue flames as well.)

We only see those black-barked trees in one place, and I imagine their upkeep is fairly expensive, knowledge intensive, and requires magic. I think these tress are just another magical tree. There are many plants that exist in the GRRM world that don't in real life (weirwoods, ghost grass, ironwood) so another type of magical tree has precedence and does not have to be related to weirwoods. I think weirwoods only grow in Westeros, and are picky trees. I get the feeling that weirwoods would be resistent to the type of magic and perversion that would make the bark black and the leaves blue; I think they would die before succumbing to that intense corruption. However, the weirwoods are thought to take up the blood/magic/power of human sacrifices so it may be posible.

I personally don't believe that the trees are weirwoods either, although my objection is based off the fact that weirwoods seem endemic to Westeros and nowhere else seems to have natural ones.
As an aside, I do like your idea about the Ironwood trees; I'm quite a fan of explaining some aspects of the world with science! Although I would urge caution here, as our knowledge of Ironwood's buring colour seems to come from the Telltale Game Series, so can only be considered semi-canon at best.

I do agree that the trees are magic, and I like your thinking on the weirwoods' resistance to the corruption. Perhaps these warlock-trees are normal trees corrupted by the Black Stone? And building off that (read: spitballing), might the weirwoods of Westeros be trees which were altered by blood sacrifices by the Children?

 

[Lord Vance II]

1 hour ago, Maester of Valyria said:

might the weirwoods of Westeros be trees which were altered by blood sacrifices by the Children?

It seems kind of backwards to me to worships something you created.