Macgregor of the North Posted July 24, 2016 Author Share Posted July 24, 2016 2 hours ago, direpupy said: The info in they app comes from notes made available to to Ellio (Ran) and Linda by GRRM, but like the disclaimer on they app says information on the app is subject to change by the author's disgression. The way Ran explained it to me was that if its not in the books its semi-canon and you can not be sure that it is actually going to appear in the books. Also the info on dragonbinder is only in the Qarth section and not in the Euron or Warlock section's because they found this info among the notes on Qarth but did not find corroborating info among the notes on Euron and the Warlocks. So for now it seems he got the horn from the warlocks, but its semi-canon info, something i just felt i should point out so you can take it into account in any theorizing you do on this subject. By no means should this stop you from theorizing its just a peace of info i thought would be relevant. I'm quite confident the info in the app will stand to be correct. If it comes from GRRM's notes that's good enough for me for now. If I see a different tale in the books I'll take it on board and change my own line of thought on the topic but for now I'll stick with the notes/app info since its from the highest source possible. Cheers for pointing this out though Direpupy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 On 7/22/2016 at 11:32 AM, Macgregor of the North said: The official WOIAF app. The horns alleged origin is Valyria but did the Warlocks get it there? Possibly from Valyria. No living humans can go there and return (in theory) but the "undying ones" maybe could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 As far as something you may have left out about the horns origin. Dany does think to herself at one point near the end of Dance that the Dragonlord of old Valyria used spells and magic horns to control their dragons, but that she did it with just a whip. So even with her limited knowledge she had heard of such horns, seemingly from Viserys. There is also the repeated statements that only Valyrians had ever mastered dragons, so if the horn does what it says it does, than it must have come from Valyria or else people other than Valyrians would have controlled at least 1 dragon. Edited for spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted July 24, 2016 Author Share Posted July 24, 2016 On 23 July 2016 at 1:19 PM, Lord Varys said: You have to keep in mind that the Undying weren't all that interested in the dragons. Remember, they wanted to suck Dany dry, presumably because of her special magical destiny/potential, and Drogon actually saved Dany and killed the Undying. Pyat Pree may have found Dragonbinder in the ruins of of the House of the Undying. And neither he nor his buddies might actually be interested in the dragons but rather in killing/destroying Daenerys because what she did to the Undying. Ah but doesn't this beg the question, if the Undying wanted to suck Dany dry, which is most certainly a negative tactic against her, they had to take into account that her Dragons were going to protect her, so therefore if they had the horn all this time that could control or bind Dragons or whatever, then it had to be in their plans to use it while they attempted to suck Dany dry. As to them not being interested in the Dragons I struggle to understand that part because if you are interested in causing the mother of dragons harm, you have to be interested in her dragons. On 23 July 2016 at 1:19 PM, Lord Varys said: They would have had it already. I see what your saying but I'm still iffy on this one, for my reasons, see above. I can't however see the warlocks travelling to Valyria after leaving Qarth and getting the horn. The other reason I can think of is they bought it somewhere at great cost possibly? Who knows. On 23 July 2016 at 1:19 PM, Lord Varys said: Sure, a Valyrian origin is the best guess. But who knows what the Undying might have been able to create. Valyrian glyphs don't have to be written only by Valyrians. Everybody knowing them could make a replicate, right? Hmm, yes but why? It would be a replica and wouldn't work. It could be used to fool somebody but why?. In any case the horn had some power, it burned the big guy alive so it certainly has some kind of power that a mortal man cannot handle, and this ties in with the glyphs, pointing to it being a serious legit piece of kit. On 23 July 2016 at 1:19 PM, Lord Varys said: Dany remembers something like that, yes, but we don't know yet the context in which the dragonlords used those horns. The Targaryens in Westeros seemed to have none and could still become dragonriders for centuries. An idea that has been tossed around is that - Dragonbinder might bind a dragon and its line to a human family line, effectively creating a new dragonlord line. - Dragonbinder might be a tool to subdue a wild dragon. - Dragonbinder might be weapon to destroy the bond between dragonrider and rider. - Dragonbinder might be a weapon to steal a dragon from another rider. How it works is another matter. Some people think you have to have dragonlord blood (I'm one of them) others suggest it might refer to blood sacrifices, or how Moqorro thinks it works. The idea that 'fire wights' have to sound the horn is also out there. We have to wait and see. This is the burning question (no pun). What does the thing do. Dany has info from somewhere claiming horns and spells controlled dragons for their riders but I've not read anything showing that dragons were controlled with anything other than a rider just bonding with the dragon and they become the rider. I do look forward to seeing the horn in action again. I wonder if we will ever read on page where the Warlocks got it? Maybe not. Where do you think Euron got his other treasure from? The Warlocks have that on their ship to? I'd put spoilers but I'm sure you know what I'm referencing. While were on that topic, all the info from the Aeron 1 foresaken chapter is now part of Eurons wiki page so surely we can talk openly on the matter now can we since anybody can see the wiki. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted July 24, 2016 Author Share Posted July 24, 2016 4 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: As far as something you may have left out about the horns origin. Dany does think to herself at one point near the end of Dance that the Dragonlord of old Valyria used spells and magic horns to control their dragons, but that she did it with just a whip. So even with her limited knowledge she had heard of such horns, seemingly from Viserys. There is also the repeated statements that only Valyrians had ever mastered dragons, so if the horn does what it says it does, than it must have come from Valyria or else people other than Valyrians would have controlled at least 1 dragon. Edited for spelling Yup, we have touched on what Dany thinks about horns and spells a couple of times in the thread. I think it helps point to the horn being a legit piece of Valyrian kit. Exactly what it does is slightly more mysterious I think. Does it need the spells also? What Lord Varys is saying I think is that it came from ancient Valyrians during wars with Qarth and the undying still had it. I'm struggling to understand though why the warlocks would take it on the ship with them as part of their revenge plot against Dany but wouldn't use it in the first place at the house of the undying when their intentions toward Dany were seriously negative then also. I can't get my head round that bit because the dragons were always going to be a problem if you wanna cause Dany harm so if you had something that could help against them, and you are no mortal man anyway, you would give it a toot maybe?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
direpupy Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: This is the burning question (no pun). What does the thing do. Dany has info from somewhere claiming horns and spells controlled dragons for their riders but I've not read anything showing that dragons were controlled with anything other than a rider just bonding with the dragon and they become the rider. I at some point did some thinking on this subject and wat poped into my mind was the question, "how do you control a dragon when the rider is not there". I mean how do prevent the dragon from eating the servants that are bringing it food or cleaning its stable? Perhaps the horn is meant for that purpose, to temporarily control a dragon in absence of the rider. Sure the slave that blows the horn dies but if you don't you lose more than one slave. And i know the valyrians did not seem to bothered with sacrificing a few slaves (mines in the fourteen flames is proof) but having to replace multiple slaves every day would probably be enough of a pain in they ass to try and find a way to minimize the casualty's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted July 25, 2016 Author Share Posted July 25, 2016 1 hour ago, direpupy said: I at some point did some thinking on this subject and wat poped into my mind was the question, "how do you control a dragon when the rider is not there". I mean how do prevent the dragon from eating the servants that are bringing it food or cleaning its stable? Perhaps the horn is meant for that purpose, to temporarily control a dragon in absence of the rider. Sure the slave that blows the horn dies but if you don't you lose more than one slave. And i know the valyrians did not seem to bothered with sacrificing a few slaves (mines in the fourteen flames is proof) but having to replace multiple slaves every day would probably be enough of a pain in they ass to try and find a way to minimize the casualty's. Reasonable thinking Direpupy. Ive given this thought to. Thing is, the Unsullied feed Danys dragons with no such horn or controlling instrument. I think that if a Valyrian dragonlord, or even Daenerys, has a Dragon, or Dragons, then the Dragons can sense who is in service to their master and will not devour them if they are brought food by them. The Dragons seem to have a sense of people, and can decide who is ok and not ok for want of a better term. A cool bit of info from TPATQ on Dragons, feeding and bending them to the will of a rider is that they bend easier to their will when full up on food. Nettles used to feed Sheepstealer each day before she flew him. Of course Nettles has already bonded with him previously but its cool info all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
direpupy Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 7 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said: Reasonable thinking Direpupy. Ive given this thought to. Thing is, the Unsullied feed Danys dragons with no such horn or controlling instrument. I think that if a Valyrian dragonlord, or even Daenerys, has a Dragon, or Dragons, then the Dragons can sense who is in service to their master and will not devour them if they are brought food by them. The Dragons seem to have a sense of people, and can decide who is ok and not ok for want of a better term. A cool bit of info from TPATQ on Dragons, feeding and bending them to the will of a rider is that they bend easier to their will when full up on food. Nettles used to feed Sheepstealer each day before she flew him. Of course Nettles has already bonded with him previously but its cool info all the same. Wel they feed them while in captivaty so they can keep there distance, in the princes and the queen it also becomes clear that dragons on dragonstone are left to roam free so it would be hard to keep your distance. In the dragonpit feeding would not be a problem but the dragonpit dragons never grew to the size of there ancestors because dragons do not do wel in captivity, it seems the valyrians did not keep there dragons inside and the Targaryens until the building of the dragonpit also did not do this. Perhaps the dragonhorn is wat you use to call in the dragons for dinner so they don't eat the humans working in the fields in the countryside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted July 25, 2016 Author Share Posted July 25, 2016 14 minutes ago, direpupy said: Wel they feed them while in captivaty so they can keep there distance, in the princes and the queen it also becomes clear that dragons on dragonstone are left to roam free so it would be hard to keep your distance. In the dragonpit feeding would not be a problem but the dragonpit dragons never grew to the size of there ancestors because dragons do not do wel in captivity, it seems the valyrians did not keep there dragons inside and the Targaryens until the building of the dragonpit also did not do this. Perhaps the dragonhorn is wat you use to call in the dragons for dinner so they don't eat the humans working in the fields in the countryside I'm with you but I genuinely get the feeling the horn Euron got his hands on and any other such horns are something more than just an awesome looking dinner bell. The glyphs saying "no mortal man can sound me and live, and "fire for blood, blood for fire" seem to point to something more sinister. I could be wrong though. I am searching around for as much as I can find on the topic currently. It's top of my tree right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted July 25, 2016 Author Share Posted July 25, 2016 Was thinking on the engravings on the horn. Gold band: 'I am Dragonbinder'. Second gold band: 'No mortal man shall sound me and live'. The VS band: 'Blood for fire, fire for blood'. Makes me think of the funeral pyre situation. Dany appeared to be immortal during that funeral pyre come blood sacrifice ritual. Although we know she is not immortal but at that moment she certainly seemed so. I'm wondering if it's possible Dany could sound this horn and live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 13 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: Ah but doesn't this beg the question, if the Undying wanted to suck Dany dry, which is most certainly a negative tactic against her, they had to take into account that her Dragons were going to protect her, so therefore if they had the horn all this time that could control or bind Dragons or whatever, then it had to be in their plans to use it while they attempted to suck Dany dry. Well, obviously they thought they could deal with Dany anyway or underestimated the power/strength of Drogon. Else they would either have used the horn or Pyat Pree would never have allowed Daenerys to take Drogon with her into the House of the Undying. 13 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: As to them not being interested in the Dragons I struggle to understand that part because if you are interested in causing the mother of dragons harm, you have to be interested in her dragons. I think the mistake you are making here is that you think Dany is special because of her dragons. She could also have dragons because she is special. If the prophecy stuff surrounding Dany the Undying showed her is true then she is very special as a person whose coming has been prophesied, not because she got herself some dragons. A lot of people had dragons in the past who weren't necessarily special in the same sense. We don't really know what the motives of the Undying were but it seems they were interested in sucking Dany's life force out of her, perhaps drinking her 'magical specialness and destiny' along with it, making themselves a meal that would last them for quite a long time. It seems they are basically magical vampires of a sort, but we don't know on what kind of people they feed. They might not be all that interested in 'normal people'. 13 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: I see what your saying but I'm still iffy on this one, for my reasons, see above. I can't however see the warlocks travelling to Valyria after leaving Qarth and getting the horn. The other reason I can think of is they bought it somewhere at great cost possibly? Who knows. Ran suggested the Qartheen might have been to Valyrian at one point after the Doom and done what Euron claims he did. No idea if that makes much sense. But the idea that Undying took it from some defeated Valyrian dragonlord in the past who died in the Red Waste in the wake of some war isn't a big stretch. 13 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: Hmm, yes but why? It would be a replica and wouldn't work. It could be used to fool somebody but why?. In any case the horn had some power, it burned the big guy alive so it certainly has some kind of power that a mortal man cannot handle, and this ties in with the glyphs, pointing to it being a serious legit piece of kit. Oh, I didn't mean a replica that doesn't work. I meant a Qartheen copy of a Valyrian dragon horn. If you understand the magic you should be able to make a similar artifact. 13 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: This is the burning question (no pun). What does the thing do. Dany has info from somewhere claiming horns and spells controlled dragons for their riders but I've not read anything showing that dragons were controlled with anything other than a rider just bonding with the dragon and they become the rider. That is why one of better ideas is actually that horns like Dragonrider are able to create new lines of dragonlords, binding a new non-dragonlord family to a dragon and its future offspring. If that was the case then it would actually be irrelevant whose blood was smeared on the horn (Euron's or Victarion's) because both are Greyjoys and would subsequently be able to claim one of the dragons. But I actually don't think that's the case because the whole 'blood of the dragon' thing actually suggests dragonlords created themselves by literally merging their blood with that of the dragons. That doesn't seem to work with a horn. The other good idea would be that it works to subdue a wild dragon (quite risky even for a person with dragonlord blood) or to sever the existing bond between a rider and its dragon (to steal said dragon). 13 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: I wonder if we will ever read on page where the Warlocks got it? Maybe not. Where do you think Euron got his other treasure from? The Warlocks have that on their ship to? I'd put spoilers but I'm sure you know what I'm referencing. I'm pretty sure the origin and true powers of Dragonbinder will be discussed. Tyrion should know at least a little bit about such horns and Marwyn perhaps even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
direpupy Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: I'm with you but I genuinely get the feeling the horn Euron got his hands on and any other such horns are something more than just an awesome looking dinner bell. The glyphs saying "no mortal man can sound me and live, and "fire for blood, blood for fire" seem to point to something more sinister. I could be wrong though. I am searching around for as much as I can find on the topic currently. It's top of my tree right now. Honestly i have never been able to shake the feeling that the horn is a red herring and that its impact will be underwelming, but thats just a personel feeling i have. I certainly hope there is more to it but it just does not give that fibe to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted July 25, 2016 Author Share Posted July 25, 2016 48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Well, obviously they thought they could deal with Dany anyway or underestimated the power/strength of Drogon. Else they would either have used the horn or Pyat Pree would never have allowed Daenerys to take Drogon with her into the House of the Undying. So it seems like they underestimated her and really are just a foolish old relic of power because if they had any sense they would have used the horn to be certain in their actions, which were certainly of a negative nature toward Dany. This is assuming the horn would have bound the dragons to them and not Dany. Oops. meant to post more replies but hit the post button by mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted July 25, 2016 Author Share Posted July 25, 2016 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: I think the mistake you are making here is that you think Dany is special because of her dragons. She could also have dragons because she is special. If the prophecy stuff surrounding Dany the Undying showed her is true then she is very special as a person whose coming has been prophesied, not because she got herself some dragons. A lot of people had dragons in the past who weren't necessarily special in the same sense. We don't really know what the motives of the Undying were but it seems they were interested in sucking Dany's life force out of her, perhaps drinking her 'magical specialness and destiny' along with it, making themselves a meal that would last them for quite a long time. It seems they are basically magical vampires of a sort, but we don't know on what kind of people they feed. They might not be all that interested in 'normal people'. Thats not what im implying at all, you have misread me i think. I am meaning that anybody with the intention of causing Dany harm, which sucking her life force from her is certainly going to do, then they had better take her dragons into consideration and take steps to pacify them if possible. If they had the horn, and understood what its capabilities were then it surprises me that they never used it. But like i said, maybe they are just a foolish ex superpower of the world who have no power anymore, or sense. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: Oh, I didn't mean a replica that doesn't work. I meant a Qartheen copy of a Valyrian dragon horn. If you understand the magic you should be able to make a similar artifact. A Qartheen copy of a Valyrian artefact? Nah, not vibing with that at all. Also, if the Undying or the Qartheen understood Valyrian magic i get a funny feeling that all Danys chapters in Qarth would have read quite differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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