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Most unintelligent character in the series?


FacelessDude

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1 minute ago, dariopatke said:

Abandoning Bran and Rickon was smart, he needed her more, giving command to Roose, speaking against releasing Theon, proposing Great Council to Renly and pointing that Lannisters are true enemy and she had to get Sansa and Arya because Robb had no heir. Rickard was an disobeying idiot, he had it coming.

There is no one who had freed her daughters, that would had been beyond idiot. They were the Lannisters' most important hostages. If you have to blame Rickard for what he did just remember that after Ned's beheading Robb continued his war because he wanted revenge. There was no way that he could had beat Tywin and no one would had ever freed the girls. So instead of bending the knee he prefered to continue a war because of revenge, Since she had never been involved before she had no reason to stay there. The truth is that Cat had no reason to be there, especially when Rickon, who was almost a baby, and Bran, who was hurt, needed her.

5 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

A man has to have a purpose in his life, I think it is better than fighting as a sellsword. Also I don't think this stupid, but... sentimental. He was angry at everyone for losing land, Rheagars death, Aegon losing crown,... I do not think him stupid, a man who took entire Stormlands in that short amount of time is not stupid. But I supouse we will see pretty soon is he smart or not.

He was stupid, from all we know Robert could had accept him back since it was Aerys the one who sent into the exile.

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2 hours ago, Walda said:

Mental illness and intellectual disability are completely different things.

Mental illness is insanity, or having perceptions, ideas about how things work, that are radically at odds with how most people believe things are, 2+2=5 and everyone is trying to trick me into believing otherwise. Intellectual disability is delayed learning, taking longer than most people to process thoughts, 2+2=....4 (eventually). About a quarter of the population have an episode of mental illness at some time in their lives, most probably in their twenties, and recover. About 3% of the population are born or become intellectually disabled early in their lives, and live with it for the rest of their lives. 

Jinglebell has an intellectual disability, Gwynesse has a mental illness.

Ser Lymond Lychester could be either, or both. He seems to have impaired cognition, as well as compulsive thoughts:

according to Lem,

Which makes it sound like he was functioning normally until grief triggered depression, obsession, and mental illness. But then, he is very old, and was probably quite old sixteen years ago. Maybe the impaired cognitive functioning that was a result of progressive Alzheimers only became apparent with the changes that Robert's Rebellion brought - breaking up his family circle and habitual ways of doing things, his judgement showing conspicuous deficits when it was suddenly unassisted by his sons, and critical for the welfare of his house, servants, and peasants. 

The six wounds, with the seventh and apparently fatal one going to Ser Maynard seems to be a parallel to Beric's six deaths, with his seventh life going to Catelyn. So maybe there is some magic mixed with the intellectual impairment and/or insanity.  

What was that about?

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1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

There is no one who had freed her daughters, that would had been beyond idiot. They were the Lannisters' most important hostages. If you have to blame Rickard for what he did just remember that after Ned's beheading Robb continued his war because he wanted revenge. There was no way that he could had beat Tywin and no one would had ever freed the girls. So instead of bending the knee he prefered to continue a war because of revenge, Since she had never been involved before she had no reason to stay there. The truth is that Cat had no reason to be there, especially when Rickon, who was almost a baby, and Bran, who was hurt, needed her.

He was stupid, from all we know Robert could had accept him back since it was Aerys the one who sent into the exile.

And Jaime was most important hostage of Starks,  Robb could have defeated him again, but he cant get new heir.

At the beginning of CoK there was a huge chance for victory of Stannis or more likely Renly, Lannisters were in terrible position. It was really different. 

She wabted to advise her boy and he was a boy. Bran and Rickon had Rodrick and others, Robb had only Theon and his bannermen who he barely knows.

He was young and wanted glory, Kevan notes he is more cautious now and we saw this is the case, just like you can say that Jaime was stupid because what he did at W Wood.

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7 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

And Jaime was most important hostage of Starks,  Robb could have defeated him again, but he cant get new heir.

He doesn't need the girls to have an heir. He can produce one. IIRC Cat herself knew that what she did was treason.

8 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

At the beginning of CoK there was a huge chance for victory of Stannis or more likely Renly, Lannisters were in terrible position. It was really different. 

So he thought that he would win over the Lannisters and the Baratheons? That make him even more stupid that I thought him to be.

9 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

She wabted to advise her boy and he was a boy. Bran and Rickon had Rodrick and others, Robb had only Theon and his bannermen who he barely knows.

She had no reason to advice Robb she has no way to know about war, there were people who knew about war that would had been better counselors. A mother is not the same a servant for a baby or a child with disabilities.

13 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

He was young and wanted glory, Kevan notes he is more cautious now and we saw this is the case, just like you can say that Jaime was stupid because what he did at W Wood.

I don't understand what you mean. Can you explain that?

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47 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

He doesn't need the girls to have an heir. He can produce one. IIRC Cat herself knew that what she did was treason.

So he thought that he would win over the Lannisters and the Baratheons? That make him even more stupid that I thought him to be.

She had no reason to advice Robb she has no way to know about war, there were people who knew about war that would had been better counselors. A mother is not the same a servant for a baby or a child with disabilities.

I don't understand what you mean. Can you explain that?

Until his son is born he needs an heir. What if Robb dies and Jeyne has stillbirth? It qas a treason, but necessary one.

Ne, he thought he would win Lannister, in fact he almost allied himself with Renly.

She was his mother, only person out there he can actually trust, well exceot Edmure and Brynden, but he barely knew them. Boys could survive coupke of months, Robb was more important, he also needed someone wirhwwho he can be himself, a boy and not Lord Robb.

He didn't lose battle of the bells because he was stupid, but because he wanted glory, his actions in DwD and WoW show us that he is more cautious and actually smart (with info we currently have). Jaine is not stupud but he kost at Whispering Wood because he is impulsive.

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3 hours ago, dariopatke said:

Until his son is born he needs an heir. What if Robb dies and Jeyne has stillbirth? It qas a treason, but necessary one.

Not really. It would be a necessary if the other part would had been willing to do it. There is no way in hell that the Lannisters or the Tyrells would be willing to gave up their most valuable hostage.

3 hours ago, dariopatke said:

Ne, he thought he would win Lannister, in fact he almost allied himself with Renly.

What he thought that would happen doesn't mean that he could do it. Even if he allied himself with Renly, which was impossible and didn't happened in the end, he would still had to fight Stannis and Tywin. Neither Robb or Renly had what it takes to beat both of them.

3 hours ago, dariopatke said:

She was his mother, only person out there he can actually trust, well exceot Edmure and Brynden, but he barely knew them. Boys could survive coupke of months, Robb was more important, he also needed someone wirhwwho he can be himself, a boy and not Lord Robb.

The point is that she had no idea about war, heck she ended up committing high treason and if she wasn't his mother she would had been dead. However she knew how to be a mother to a baby and a small child who had lost their mother. As Spock said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or of the one." Robb had no reason to have his mother who had no knowledge about war near, he had to learn how to lead his men with his men, he wouldn't had his mother by his side in perpetuity he had to learn how someone can lead.

3 hours ago, dariopatke said:

He didn't lose battle of the bells because he was stupid, but because he wanted glory, his actions in DwD and WoW show us that he is more cautious and actually smart (with info we currently have). Jaine is not stupud but he kost at Whispering Wood because he is impulsive.

How Robert became a part of the discussion?

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4 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Not really. It would be a necessary if the other part would had been willing to do it. There is no way in hell that the Lannisters or the Tyrells would be willing to gave up their most valuable hostage.

What he thought that would happen doesn't mean that he could do it. Even if he allied himself with Renly, which was impossible and didn't happened in the end, he would still had to fight Stannis and Tywin. Neither Robb or Renly had what it takes to beat both of them.

The point is that she had no idea about war, heck she ended up committing high treason and if she wasn't his mother she would had been dead. However she knew how to be a mother to a baby and a small child who had lost their mother. As Spock said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or of the one." Robb had no reason to have his mother who had no knowledge about war near, he had to learn how to lead his men with his men, he wouldn't had his mother by his side in perpetuity he had to learn how someone can lead.

How Robert became a part of the discussion?

It was worth trying. Besides Jaime was determined to fulfil promise.

It didn't happen because Renly died. Please explain to me how could Stark-Baratheon alliance fail. Had he lived that day Stannis would have died. How we have Robb with around 30k men and Renly with 80k and Tywin with 20k. They also have Randyll and there is no chance Dorne or Vale would join his cause.

He needed her for support, here we can only agree to disagree, you think it was bad and I think it was good and there is no chance we cna change opinion of other.

He didn't, I was talking about Jon.

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1 hour ago, dariopatke said:

It was worth trying. Besides Jaime was determined to fulfil promise.

No it isn't. Someone doesn't lose his most valuable hostage for something that cannot be done. Jaime wasn't in power, he couldn't do something like that especially since if he hadn't lost his hand would had still being the men who threw Bran.

1 hour ago, dariopatke said:

It didn't happen because Renly died. Please explain to me how could Stark-Baratheon alliance fail. Had he lived that day Stannis would have died. How we have Robb with around 30k men and Renly with 80k and Tywin with 20k. They also have Randyll and there is no chance Dorne or Vale would join his cause.

I think that firstly Robb wouldn't had accepted Renly's terms and that secondly everyone who would fight against Tywin would had lose. I think that Randyll is overrated, he was a good soldier yes but his good reputation was the fact that he had beat Robert which was more like a draw and not a win.

1 hour ago, dariopatke said:

He needed her for support, here we xan only agree to disagree, you think it was bad and I think it was good and there is no chance we cna change opinion of other.

The point is that he didn't needed a support, he was a man grown and was old enough to stop hiding behind his mother's skirts. What is more importand and needs more help a grown up that has help or a baby and a small wounded child? I think the latter

1 hour ago, dariopatke said:

He didn't, I was talking about Jon.

Ok sorry I got lost. :)

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22 hours ago, TheDemonicStark said:

What? Explain your logic sir.

Haha just being funny by picking someone unlikely. Though Lysa was never really subtle in concealing her crazy, it's a wonder Jon never noticed. Yeah, he was busy governing the realm, but I'm sure rumors would get around to him about Sweetrobin's prolonged breast feeding and his mother's super over-protectiveness. One wonders how she could keep her infatuation with Littlefinger a secret when they were living in the same city for so long.

Lysa convinced Jon to consider Littlefinger for Master of Coin, and she later poisoned Jon on Littlefinger's orders and sent a raven to Catelyn blaming the Lannisters for the death. One wonders just how much chaos could've been avoided if Jon paid a bit more attention to his wife, or kept her in the Vale while he served as Hand.

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Just now, TheDemonicStark said:

She kinda did go a bit crazy over Littlefinger and Sweetrobin.

She was obsessed with Robin's safety I agree but I think that she had reasons to be like that. However I don't think that she was *crazy* over LF since we have never heared anything like it from a KL's PoV. 

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15 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Her crazy? You mean her obsession with keeping her only child save?

Yes, her unhealthy obsession of protecting her child and her unhealthy obsession with Littlefinger. The former is a natural and understandable inclination in any decent mother, but when combined with the latter, she takes it to lengths that defy rationality. There is no reason to fear the Lannisters once she is safe in the Eyrie. She could control who is allowed into the fortress, she could staff it with only those loyal to her. Unless Bronn's coming with ten men and some rope, there's not much to worry about.* There's no reason she couldn't have aided Catelyn and Robb in their war. Her son wouldn't be in any greater or lesser danger because of it. So much is made of how bloody hard it is to attack the Eyrie. Even Tywin would've had a rough time of it if the Lannister army had marched into the Vale.

Her obsessions and insecurities mark her as crazy. Her jealousy growing up second to Catelyn, the resentment at being forced to marry an old man with "weak seed"---she clung to Petyr, believing he loved her, to the point where she murdered her husband, sent her family into a war and refused to help them and simply stood by as they all die, just because Petyr told her to. This is not a display of positive mental health, in my opinion. Her paranoia, over-protectiveness, jealousy, and obsession with Petyr even began alienating her subjects. One wonders how long they would have put up with her if Petyr hadn't ended her life.

* Although the Mad Mouse has gained entry to the right places easily enough as of Book 4/6, and he's seeking Cersei's gold reward...

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Just now, Ser Ronan Storm said:

Yes, her unhealthy obsession of protecting her child and her unhealthy obsession with Littlefinger. The former is a natural and understandable inclination in any decent mother, but when combined with the latter, she takes it to lengths that defy rationality. There is no reason to fear the Lannisters once she is safe in the Eyrie. She could control who is allowed into the fortress, she could staff it with only those loyal to her. Unless Bronn's coming with ten men and some rope, there's not much to worry about.* There's no reason she couldn't have aided Catelyn and Robb in their war. Her son wouldn't be in any greater or lesser danger because of it. So much is made of how bloody hard it is to attack the Eyrie. Even Tywin would've had a rough time of it if the Lannister army had marched into the Vale.

That is dead wrong. If she participated at Robb's war Robin would had been in danger. Eyrie may be impregnable but all Tywin needed was an assassin. There was no reason to endanger her child for someone who just happen to be her sister's seed. It wasn't her fault that Ned was an idiot and Robb wanted revenge, it was their fault. No one would had endanger his child for a stranger.

2 minutes ago, Ser Ronan Storm said:

Her obsessions and insecurities mark her as crazy. Her jealousy growing up second to Catelyn, the resentment at being forced to marry an old man with "weak seed"---she clung to Petyr, believing he loved her, to the point where she murdered her husband, sent her family into a war and refused to help them and simply stood by as they all die, just because Petyr told her to. This is not a display of positive mental health, in my opinion. Her paranoia, over-protectiveness, jealousy, and obsession with Petyr even began alienating her subjects. One wonders how long they would have put up with her if Petyr hadn't ended her life.

I don't agree, it seems that her "craziness" is the result of how she was treated. Or how her father treated her. He killed her child, sold her to a man old enough to be her grandfather and the result of both the murder of her baby and the age of her husbands were the multiple miscarriages and stillbirths. She might had exaggerated but she had reasons to be like that.

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3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

That is dead wrong. If she participated at Robb's war Robin would had been in danger. Eyrie may be impregnable but all Tywin needed was an assassin. There was no reason to endanger her child for someone who just happen to be her sister's seed. It wasn't her fault that Ned was an idiot and Robb wanted revenge, it was their fault. No one would had endanger his child for a stranger.

I don't agree, it seems that her "craziness" is the result of how she was treated. Or how her father treated her. He killed her child, sold her to a man old enough to be her grandfather and the result of both the murder of her baby and the age of her husbands were the multiple miscarriages and stillbirths. She might had exaggerated but she had reasons to be like that.

It wasn't her fault that Ned was an idiot and Robb wanted revenge, but it was her fault for putting both men in those positions. She started the conflict on Littlefinger's orders.

Actually, you are agreeing with me in that second paragraph, because I've said that her crazy comes from her life experiences. Nevertheless, crazy is still crazy.

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2 minutes ago, Ser Ronan Storm said:

It wasn't her fault that Ned was an idiot and Robb wanted revenge, but it was her fault for putting both men in those positions. She started the conflict on Littlefinger's orders.

No one obligated Ned to say Cersei his plans and she didn't obligated Robb to refuse bend the knee. She killed her husband and sent a letter true. However the way the other characters acted was entirely their fault.

3 minutes ago, Ser Ronan Storm said:

Actually, you are agreeing with me in that second paragraph, because I've said that her crazy comes from her life experiences. Nevertheless, crazy is still crazy.

I kind of yes. However I don't believe that jealousy was a reason.

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1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

No it isn't. Someone doesn't lose his most valuable hostage for something that cannot be done. Jaime wasn't in power, he couldn't do something like that especially since if he hadn't lost his hand would had still being the men who threw Bran.

I think that firstly Robb wouldn't had accepted Renly's terms and that secondly everyone who would fight against Tywin would had lose. I think that Randyll is overrated, he was a good soldier yes but his good reputation was the fact that he had beat Robert which was more like a draw and not a win.

The point is that he didn't needed a support, he was a man grown and was old enough to stop hiding behind his mother's skirts. What is more importand and needs more help a grown up that has help or a baby and a small wounded child? I think the latter

Ok sorry I got lost. :)

He is in power, he is LC of KG and seats in SC. A man who threw Bran was protecting himself, his sister and their children, a man who killed his King did it to save thousands.

We dont know that, maybe he would have, after all he stood in Twins amd listened bunch of insults because he needed 4k men. I agree that Randyll was overrated, but it still makes him good and with 110k men hey can do whatever they want and still win (not literally).

Indeed and he also knew it, but he wasnt grown, he still was a boy, he doesnt have help of people he trusts (in fact his most loyal bannerman drew steel on him), wounded child needs maester more than mother, she cant help hom, but can help Robb.

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