Boneheaded Stark Decisions?

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

I get so frustrated with my second family, the Starks.  I have a few moments of the top of my head that are extremely frustrating to me.  These are not in any sort of order, just what I can think of right now.  

1) Ned not taking LF and/or Renly's advice following Robert's death.

2) Arya not using Jaqen's death favors on more important people like Tywin, Joff, Gregor, etc....

3) Robb hooking up with Jeyne Westerling.

4) Catelyn letting Jaime go.

Arya not killing off Tywin bugs me the most because it seems like it should have been so easy and it seems like the most obvious name for her to give Jaqen.  Robb hooking up with Jeyne is such a moronic move and set off such a bad turn of events for him.  What do you think?  Am I missing any other BSDs (boneheaded Stark decisions)?  

 

[Abdallah]

12 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I get so frustrated with my second family, the Starks.  I have a few moments of the top of my head that are extremely frustrating to me.  These are not in any sort of order, just what I can think of right now.  

1) Ned not taking LF and/or Renly's advice following Robert's death.

2) Arya not using Jaqen's death favors on more important people like Tywin, Joff, Gregor, etc....

3) Robb hooking up with Jeyne Westerling.

4) Catelyn letting Jaime go.

Arya not killing off Tywin bugs me the most because it seems like it should have been so easy and it seems like the most obvious name for her to give Jaqen.  Robb hooking up with Jeyne is such a moronic move and set off such a bad turn of events for him.  What do you think?  Am I missing any other BSDs (boneheaded Stark decisions)?  

 

Dude it's the starks, everything they do is boneheaded. Robb letting Theon go, Catelyn kidnapping Tyrion, Ned trusting Janos and LF. FFS these people are a walking disaster. 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

2 minutes ago, Abdallah said:

Dude it's the starks, everything they do is boneheaded. Robb letting Theon go, Catelyn kidnapping Tyrion, Ned trusting Janos and LF. FFS these people are a walking disaster. 

And yet they've also held the north for thousands of years. You don't do that through stupidity

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

The Starks biggest problem is they are too trusting for the world they live in, and I think this stems from the fact the people of the north don't scheme or manipulate each other the way the southerners do.

This can be seen in all the stark children who have never left winterfell... they are too trusting, don't think for a second people have ulterior motives and say what they mean/mean what they say.

The southerners have been brought in this world so are not so naive.

How many times have we seen Sansa take people for their words because they said it with a nice smile and seemed genuine only to be crushed time and time again.... until she learns that they are not all sincere.

Robb believing Walder had forgiven all and everything was going to be okay.... do you think a Lannister would have still showed for the wedding ? or not without some sort of defense in place incase Walder decided to get some payback... of course they would have these thought prior to the wedding and be prepared... the thought probably never crossed Robbs mind.

The same thing happens with Robb letting Theon go...... Ned believing LF was his friend because he said he was....

The only one that seemed to see through the bullshit a little better was Catelyn being as she grew up around the schemers and such, she never believed Theon was to be trusted because she knew people can act/manipulate to stay alive and may have been faking his happiness with his new family, she didn't want Ned in the capitol because she knew he would be a fish out of water.

 

 

 

 

 

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

5 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

And yet they've also held the north for thousands of years. You don't do that through stupidity

They held the north most likely because they never had to be involved with southern politics or southerners in general... in the north they seem straight shooters and say what they mean/mean what they say... if someone declares they are on your side... they are on your side... theres no scheming or red herrings exception with the Boltons.

It's only when Ned was brought into living with the Southern people and wasn't wise to all there scheming/plotting and two facedness that things went to shit... he took everyone at face value.

Sansa did the same when she first arrived at Kings Landing taking all the promises of this and that only to have them torn away one by one until she wisened up.

Take Meagery, she came into the folk in much the same way as Sansa, sure she smiled and looked excited when Joffrey promised this and that... or the other lords in KL told her she would get this and do that... but you knew she saw through all there bull but played along to keep in their favour...

The Starks were fish out of water in the Capitol... to naive,trusting,honorable... all great traits up north and respected for it... but seen as easy to manipulate and weak to the fast talking southerners.

 

 

 

 

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

There are actually plenty of schemers in the north. Lady Dustin, Roose, the Umbers, Robett Glover, Manderly, the Karstarks betraying Stannis etc.

It´s not like theres NO intrigue going on, I think it´s more like Ned was never the target because he was actually the best Lord anyone could ask for and his succession seemed very secure.

Also I think this pattern of honorable Stark stupidity is only very recently. The Kings of Winter were nothing like this and ruled with an iron grip. Even more recent examples shows that they´re not naive by nature. I don´t think Cregan Stark would put up with any of this crap and serve cold justice in court. The scheming would turn down rather quickly.

The one things the Starks never did was play the game of thrones. Now they were kind of forced into it and failed miserably.

 

[Philokles]

Ned was naïve, Cat was desperate, but the others were young enough for these sorts of things to be expected. Arya learnt quickly and only ended up wasting one of her choices. Besides these decisions are no more stupid than, for example, some of the Lannister decision making - people everywhere make stupid mistakes.

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

2 hours ago, Ser Tristan Flowers said:

There are actually plenty of schemers in the north. Lady Dustin, Roose, the Umbers, Robett Glover, Manderly, the Karstarks betraying Stannis etc.

It´s not like theres NO intrigue going on, I think it´s more like Ned was never the target because he was actually the best Lord anyone could ask for and his succession seemed very secure.

Also I think this pattern of honorable Stark stupidity is only very recently. The Kings of Winter were nothing like this and ruled with an iron grip. Even more recent examples shows that they´re not naive by nature. I don´t think Cregan Stark would put up with any of this crap and serve cold justice in court. The scheming would turn down rather quickly.

The one things the Starks never did was play the game of thrones. Now they were kind of forced into it and failed miserably.

 

Well maybe not the whole north but I definitely feel the Starks led a sheltered life where they never got treated like crap from anyone and no one tried to pull the wool over their eyes... so arriving in KL it was all new to them and took most of them a longtime to figure it out or died before so... arya being the exception.

[goomba]

The Starks aren't stupid, it's just that they don't know how to play the game.

Ned even figured out the Lannister incest practically by himself, which shows a decent amount of intelligence.

However he simply didn't know how to play the game, his lack of interest/experience in the game led to him getting outplayed by Cersei 

 

[the wolf that never was]

too many to count...

ned and his children have been too naive and shouldve stayed up north

someone mentioned that older generations of stark were very smart and ruthless, i agree and Cregan Stark is my fav

[Nevets]

While much of their decision-making leaves much to be desired, the Starks are hardly the only ones who have made boneheaded decisions.  Theon and Cersei (especially in Feast) make such long series of bad decisions they make the Starks look positively brilliant and level-headed.  Stannis and Daenerys make decisions that, even when they make them, make you want to bang your head in frustration.  At least the Starks for the most part have learned quickly and don't gnerally repeat their mistakes.

[The Puffin Has Three Heads]

Oh dear, oh dear.  I've got to stand up for poor old Ned here.  There are pressures this guy was under that 99.9% of readers (and show watchers) don't seem to have caught on to yet, in my opinion.

For example...in the AGOT Catelyn chapter in Catelyn's bedroom, did people catch on when Ned was staring out the window into the darkness with the open window letting in the icy air?  Ned knew the next Long Night was coming.  He knew the white cold was rising.

This was the night that Mance Rayder had come to Winterfell, and he was protected by guest right...and he did more than just look at the faces of King Bob, Ned, Benjen and the Stark kids and turn around and leave.  He surely spoke to Ned and Benjen saying, 'I've got thousands and thousands of people who are going to perish unless they can get to safety south of the Wall.  We need your help.'

That's what was on Ned's mind as he stared out the window.  That's why he said he couldn't leave the north.  ...Until (book) Catelyn told him his refusal would make Robert suspicious of him...and Lysa's (Littlefinger's) letter arrived claiming Robert was in danger of being killed by the Lannisters.

If history were as rosy as we've been told, Ned should have been able to talk openly to Robert and to the Night's Watch - and to Catelyn and to Luwin!  The history we've been given is a lie.  Put the clues together, people...

By the way, if you want 'confirmation' (air-quotes) of what was on Ned's mind, the show did something very elegant with it.  Not only did they keep that part of the book in - Ned staring out the window into the darkness of night (albeit fully clothed in the show, not naked and vulnerable as in the books).  This is where Cat and Luwin are his shoulder angels and Sean Bean actually breaks the fourth wall and looks straight into the camera - at the audience.  He's almost saying - 'Are you paying attention?  Are you getting these clues?'

What the show did so beautifully is they created a whole new scene - giving Ned's worries to Robert.  People gushed about the wonderful writing in the show-only scene between Robert and Cersei ( Paraphrasing - What holds the realm together? Our marriage.)  You know the scene.  In it, they have Robert staring out his window in broad daylight in King's Landing, worried about what will happen if thousands of Dothraki screamers come swarming into Westeros.  Cersei is his single shoulder angel.  There's an entire side of the matter that Robert knows nothing about...

I know I'm just dropping hints here, and that's frustrating for people to read, but truly there are layers to what's going on that have not been explored yet.

[BeeStark]

 I won't call it bone headedness, more like too self righteous. The Starks are too loyal for their own good. 

[Drekinn]

Ned being raised in the Vale shaped his ideals. I think that's where the boneheaded honor comes from.

[The Golden Wolf]

6 hours ago, Drekinn said:

Ned being raised in the Vale shaped his ideals. I think that's where the boneheaded honor comes from.

For the umpteenth time, Ned being raised in the Vale is not the de facto reason the man is honorable. His honor is just a part of him.

Everything Ned does would have worked if he had been involved in Robert's court from the get go. he was going up against people who had been entrenched in Kingslanding for years building up their power base and was expected to navigate a game that he did not care for or was woefully unprepared for. If he had the backing of a Stronger King, then Ned could have done the things that needed to be done but Robert was not a Strong king and that hurt Ned's authority.

For the Old Gods' sake, a knight of the Kingsguard attacks the Hand of the King and kills members of his household staff and all the King does is demand that Ned makes up with the Lannisters! how the hell was he ever going to win with that on his side. The man should have packed up his household and said Robert was on his own. 

[Lord Hanna]

On 7/23/2016 at 0:15 AM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

And yet they've also held the north for thousands of years. You don't do that through stupidity

Their ancestors did. Whatever my ancestors did, doesn't make my dumb decisions better. The decisions they made, a lot of them, were either dumb, naive or made out of an honor bound code that is great in theory, terrible for your family when it comes to war and politics. Saying "The starks made dumb moves" doesn't mean every stark ever was dumb.  

[Lord Hanna]

8 hours ago, The Puffin Has Three Heads said:

Oh dear, oh dear.  I've got to stand up for poor old Ned here.  There are pressures this guy was under that 99.9% of readers (and show watchers) don't seem to have caught on to yet, in my opinion.

For example...in the AGOT Catelyn chapter in Catelyn's bedroom, did people catch on when Ned was staring out the window into the darkness with the open window letting in the icy air?  Ned knew the next Long Night was coming.  He knew the white cold was rising.

 

I thought he didn't believe the White Walker story from the nights watch guy who deserted? Or is that show only and i'm getting those mixed up? Didn't he say he was talking madness? 

[The Commentator]

On 7/22/2016 at 11:58 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I get so frustrated with my second family, the Starks.  I have a few moments of the top of my head that are extremely frustrating to me.  These are not in any sort of order, just what I can think of right now.  

1) Ned not taking LF and/or Renly's advice following Robert's death.

2) Arya not using Jaqen's death favors on more important people like Tywin, Joff, Gregor, etc....

3) Robb hooking up with Jeyne Westerling.

4) Catelyn letting Jaime go.

Arya not killing off Tywin bugs me the most because it seems like it should have been so easy and it seems like the most obvious name for her to give Jaqen.  Robb hooking up with Jeyne is such a moronic move and set off such a bad turn of events for him.  What do you think?  Am I missing any other BSDs (boneheaded Stark decisions)?  

 

(1) Robb beheading Karstark and then betraying his biggest supporter, Walder Frey.

(2) Sansa ratting out her father's escape plans to Cersei because she wanted the queen to force Ned to stay in KL, so she can be with Joffrey.

(3) Jon committing treason, sent Mance Rayder to rescue Arya.  Basically, Jon declared war on House Bolton.  He was about to make it worse by planning to ride out with an army of wildllings. 

(4) Rickard making those wedding arrangements for his children.  That was basically the equivalent of signalling the king that he wants to pick a fight.

(5) Brandon and his armed men riding to the Red Keep and threatening the royal family. 

[Lord Rahvin]

11 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

(1) Robb beheading Karstark and then betraying his biggest supporter, Walder Frey.

 

Robb beheading Lord Karstark was a biggie! I really never understood what the hell he was thinking. Perhaps he never heard of a dungeon?

The Sansa thing - betraying her father to Cercie...always bothered me.

[The Golden Wolf]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

(1) Robb beheading Karstark and then betraying his biggest supporter, Walder Frey.

(2) Sansa ratting out her father's escape plans to Cersei because she wanted the queen to force Ned to stay in KL, so she can be with Joffrey.

(3) Jon committing treason, sent Mance Rayder to rescue Arya.  Basically, Jon declared war on House Bolton.  He was about to make it worse by planning to ride out with an army of wildllings. 

(4) Rickard making those wedding arrangements for his children.  That was basically the equivalent of signalling the king that he wants to pick a fight.

(5) Brandon and his armed men riding to the Red Keep and threatening the royal family. 

I agree Robb should have imprisoned Karstark and dealt justice after the war to ensure the Karstark loyalty.

Sansa was a child, who did not know any better and was rebelling against her father while not understanding the situation because no one told her. 

The Jon thing depends on your personal view point and i feel Jon did no wrong. The watch lost its way long ago and he was trying to correct course. He needed to be a better communicator although Bowen Marsh and theothers may have still stabbed him.

Number 4 is silly.

Brandon should have been calm but Aerys is the one who took things to a whole notha' level. You don't treat the heir to a Great House such a way especially when his anger is justified.