Azor Ahai and/or The Prince Who Was Promised?

[GhostNymeria]

3 minutes ago, Drogonthedread said:

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In Tolkien, Aragorn's sword is magical because it just is; not because we regularly see it helping him win fights. In these books, magic is always dangerous and difficult, and has a price and risks.

The whole point of the scene in A Game of Thrones where Daenerys hatches the dragons is that she makes the magic up as she goes along; she is someone who really might do anything. I wanted magic to be something barely under control and half instinctive--not the John W. Campbell version with magic as the science and technology of other sorts of world, that works by simple and understandable rules
 

By his own words he says it has to be simple and understandable.

He says magic has to be simple and understandable, not prophecies. 

[Drogonthedread]

36 minutes ago, GhostNymeria said:

He says magic has to be simple and understandable, not prophecies. 

Same goes for prophecies it must be simple and understandable ...take any books or series you that will be the case..even in this series itself thats the case for other prophecies ..

 

 

And he is a writer who clearly puts all the foreshadowings and develop the points in the story arcs.he gives us the clues and sets the rules ...very often people just say that dany is obvious and she cant be the one...but people doesnt know how much foreshadowings and clues GRRM has given for dany as late as ADWD ..

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  Now let’s look at how Xaro Xhoan Daxos refers to the dragons in ADWD:

“When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation,a flaming sword above the world.”

Finally, we have this very interesting passage from one of Jon’s ADWD chapter, he’s reading a passage Maester Aemon marked for him in the Jade Compendium:

“I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.” Clydas blinked. “A sword that makes its own heat …” “… would be a fine thing on the Wall.”

Now compare that to Dany’s description of what happened to Kraznys mo Nakloz during the sack of Astapor:

“There is a reason. A dragon is no slave.” And Dany swept the lash down as hard as she could across the slaver’s face. Kraznys screamed and staggered back, the blood running red down his cheeks into his perfumed beard. The harpy’s fingers had torn his features half to pieces with one slash, but she did not pause to contemplate the ruin. “Drogon,” she sang out loudly, sweetly, all her fear forgotten. “Dracarys.” The black dragon spread his wings and roared. A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face.His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks, 

He spends far too much time on someone being red herring dont you think. ..

Many does not know about this tale and dany  at all...

And this too from ADWD

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  “He is not dead. Stannis is the Lord’s chosen, destined to lead the fight against the dark. I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragon-stone is the place of smoke and salt.”

Jon had heard all this before. “Stannis Baratheon was the Lord of Drag-onstone, but he was not born there. He was born at Storm’s End, like his brothers

And unlike jon we did know who was born at dragonstone who did wake dragons from stone under the bleeding star..

Add that with the fact dany being slayer of lies and stannis becoming lord of dragonstone aftrr dany left the dragonstone..

This is how an red herring works..

 

[GhostNymeria]

1 hour ago, Drogonthedread said:

and you are completely ignoring all the tells and foreshadowings from books ..i will just leave it at that .

No, I'm not. There's foreshadowing and clues that could be considered for Daenerys as Azor Ahai/TPTWP, and there's foreshadowing and clues that could be considered for Jon as Azor Ahai/TPTWP. I just interpret the text one way and you another.

1 hour ago, Drogonthedread said:

she is still the only person who survived a fire and unburnt ..a unique being..and she did the magic at the pyre...who knows she may very well do that in books as we know from the vision of dosh khalleen bowing to her

I agree that she's unique in that sense, and she's suppose to light three fires in the books, fireproof or not. But Beric Dondarrion, Lady Stoneheart and show-Jon is also unique compared to the rest by that logic. And not to mention Bran. 

1 hour ago, Drogonthedread said:

Except ofcourse GRRm didn't say anything about  fire is bad or wanting balance ..what he said was dany representing fire in the song of ice and fire ..which you know is what AAR/TpTWp represents ..he is being called as champion of fire..

You're right about the balance part, I looked up the qoute and I stand corrected But he did say this in 2011:

"Dragons are the nuclear deterrent, and only Dany has them, which in some ways makes her the most powerful person in the world. But is that sufficient? These are the kind of issues I'm trying to explore. The United States right now has the ability to destroy the world with our nuclear arsenal, but that doesn't mean we can achieve specific geopolitical goals. Power is more subtle than that. You can have the power to destroy, but it doesn't give you the power to reform, or improve, or build."

 The prince that was promised prophecy says "his is the song of ice and fire" tough. Dany do fit as Azor Ahai/the champion of light, I'm not denying that. But I don't see how she can be TPTWP/the song of ice and fire. She is only fire. If she can be refered to as the song of ice and fire because she's fighting in a war against ice, then so can the night's king. If Azor Ahai and TPTWP are different people, then I do think Daenerys is Azor Ahai, while Jon is TPTWP. But if they are the same person, then I think Jon is the only one of them who can fulfill the ice part. I agree that it could also be one prophecy fulfilled by two people, as you said.

1 hour ago, Drogonthedread said:

North is associated with ice and he reborn at the wall and danhy at essos..its called parallel its not going to be exactly matched

I agree that the north is associated with ice and that he was reborn in place surrounded by ice, but they also choose to have him resurrected by a red priestess serving R'hllor, the god accociated with fire. Both elements was there, literally and figuratively. And I wouldn't call show-Jon's ressurection a parallell to Dany, or atleast not a stong one. It was no different than with Beric and LS (in the books). But I do agree that there is parallells between Jon and Dany, and I think the book-ressurection/rebirth is going to have a much stronger parallell with Dany than what the show gave us.

[GhostNymeria]

1 hour ago, Drogonthedread said:

Finally, we have this very interesting passage from one of Jon’s ADWD chapter, he’s reading a passage Maester Aemon marked for him in the Jade Compendium:

“I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.” Clydas blinked. “A sword that makes its own heat …” “… would be a fine thing on the Wall.”

Now compare that to Dany’s description of what happened to Kraznys mo Nakloz during the sack of Astapor:

“There is a reason. A dragon is no slave.” And Dany swept the lash down as hard as she could across the slaver’s face. Kraznys screamed and staggered back, the blood running red down his cheeks into his perfumed beard. The harpy’s fingers had torn his features half to pieces with one slash, but she did not pause to contemplate the ruin. “Drogon,” she sang out loudly, sweetly, all her fear forgotten. “Dracarys.” The black dragon spread his wings and roared. A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face.His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks, 

This is also an interpertation with two other very relevant qoutes, belonging to this. I'll just link the post.

As for flaming swords

1 hour ago, Drogonthedread said:

“When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation,a flaming sword above the world.”

Jon dreams he's fighting the others with a flaming sword and dragonglass armor. The night's watch could also be lightbringer. "I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men". Like I said, there's foreshadowing for both characters.

1 hour ago, Drogonthedread said:

And he is a writer who clearly puts all the foreshadowings and develop the points in the story arcs.he gives us the clues and sets the rules ...very often people just say that dany is obvious and she cant be the one...but people doesnt know how much foreshadowings and clues GRRM has given for dany as late as ADWD ..

He spends far too much time on someone being red herring dont you think. ..

Many does not know about this tale and dany  at all...

People that doesn't believe Dany is Azor Ahai does not equal people that "doesn't know about this tale and Dany at all". Dany being AA is your interpretation of the books. There's also foreshadowing that Dany is the stallion that mounts the world and there's other charaters that could fit the Azor Ahai prophecy. Like Rhaegar for example. Btw, I never said Dany was one giant red herring and that she won't have a big part to play. She doesn't have to be Azor Ahai for that.

1 hour ago, Drogonthedread said:

Same goes for prophecies it must be simple and understandable ...take any books or series you that will be the case..even in this series itself thats the case for other prophecies ..

Here's what Grrm have said: "Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! [Laughs] So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that."

[Drogonthedread]

1 hour ago, GhostNymeria said:

This is also an interpertation with two other very relevant qoutes, belonging to this. I'll just link the post.

As for flaming swords

Jon dreams he's fighting the others with a flaming sword and dragonglass armor. The night's watch could also be lightbringer. "I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men". Like I said, there's foreshadowing for both characters.

People that doesn't believe Dany is Azor Ahai does not equal people that "doesn't know about this tale and Dany at all". Dany being AA is your interpretation of the books. There's also foreshadowing that Dany is the stallion that mounts the world and there's other charaters that could fit the Azor Ahai prophecy. Like Rhaegar for example. Btw, I never said Dany was one giant red herring and that she won't have a big part to play. She doesn't have to be Azor Ahai for that.

Here's what Grrm have said: "Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! [Laughs] So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that."

The post you linked..let's just say iam not a fan of chirsdaw's posts or his theories...

Its not relevant not an foreshadowing because as we clearly know that dany after having that dream next day was presented with dragon eggs and and that dragon she sees in dream is drogon himself ...thus establishing the bond even when he is still egg..

You do realize we will know something was foreshadowed only after it happened in the books..what I see in that post is lots of crazy theorizing ..I mean really ..and ignoring whole lot of book material..

 

Again I present you with one who is called AAR having straight match with the take of AA and mention of flaming sword ...you say that is my interpretation ..how else will you explain what that is .

Jon can dream all he want and have a red sword ...which goes against your view that prophecies should not be literal ...how does NW going to be lightbringer when he abandons it..and please don't tell show doesn't matter.

And all this things about jon does not make dany's case irrelevant since she also as all this..

Which means jon can only join her ..

 

Yes it does equate to it ...you will be surprised how much the tale was spoken Or the connection to dany was brought up before last year where I made a thread about dany being three headed dragon..

Yes she will be TSWMTW as shown in show ...how does that make her being AAR irrelevant ..I believe its also another interpretation of the same prophecy of promised Prince.   

Dany being AAR /TPTWP/TsWMTW is not my interpretation because the books and show actually calls her as this ..iam simply pointing out those references..its not same as stannis or argon or rhaego.  Dany actually fulfills them. .

How is rhaegar going to fight as AAR since he is dead..

Why can't the same being applied to jon  ..why can't he play major role but just not as prophesied one..

 

 

About GRRm quote thank god you quoted that..I was waiting for it..

Like i said in my previous post dany being AAr/TPTWP/TSWmTW is neither too obvious nor too literal..

Lets just take the last part ..dany being AAr/TpTWP/tswmtw came in unexpected ways as well..

Rhaegar took lyanna in producing a third head but it lead to the war which ended with consumption of dany and birth at dragonstone ..who will eventually  be brought up in essos and come to contact with dothraki ( who as another version of the promised prince coming ) and birth dragons..MMD tried to stop stallion from born which leas the rebirth of dany and dragons birth..

Dany during the pyre does not plan or know she is fulfilling prophecy ...

 

Like I said arguments like too obvious is not an argument at all..

And you can't brush aside all my points as interpretation because all those things have been acknowledged and she is called as one who was promised in both show and books ...its not like I say jorah ,Davos ,brienne ,Sandor all are AAR just because I happen to find a salt and smoke related to them and doesn't happen in show or the books..

I don't see any valid arguments that show me why dany can't be AAr/TPTWp other than obvious oR literal ..

So I rest my case here ...its pretty clear in the show and books she is one  who was promised.. Jon may join her as second one... Other than these two  no one even is eligible for this prophecy because the person has to ComE from aerys and rhaella line..

So all in all dany is AAR/TpTWP/TSWmTW...she can't be red herring becuse she fulfills these prophecies right to the core..

If anyone is interested check out my thread for all the clues and foreshadowing and references for samy being three headed dragon..I have included all the clues from five books...I will try to make one for show version as well..

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/137300-a-dragon-did-wake-from-stone-and-she-has-three-heads-and-her-name-is-daenerys-targaryen/&page=1

[GhostNymeria]

1 hour ago, Drogonthedread said:

 

You do realize we will know something was foreshadowed only after it happened in the books..what I see in that post is lots of crazy theorizing ..I mean really ..and ignoring whole lot of book material.

...

So I rest my case here ...its pretty clear in the show and books she is one  who was promised.. Jon may join her as second one... Other than these two  no one even is eligible for this prophecy because the person has to ComE from aerys and rhaella line..

I do realize it. I never claimed we know if  any forshadowing for Jon actually forshadowing. It's just speculation. Daenerys as Azor Ahai/TPTWP is not a fact or proven yet. It's clear to you maybe, but that doesn't prove it. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Back in Black-Snow]

I'm starting to think AA and TPTWP are two different people. Although I have to admit, I am not well versed in the prophecies. I know enough to know they both (Jon and Dany) hold compelling cases. I think I agree with those who hold the opinion that Dany is AA while Jon is TPTWP.

What gets me, though, is the dream Jon has of himself on top of the Wall hacking at wights with a flaming sword. Could Dany somehow trade her Dragons (or even one) to Jon for Long Claw, so that she can give it to Jorah Mormont? Or is it possible that Dany and one or two of her dragons die in battle (or in some other way), and Jon takes control of the remaining dragon/s and gives Long Claw to Jorah himself? That would be bittersweet (Jorah getting the sword she promised, but not from Dany, because she dies before she can give it to him).

[dancinglion]

the last guy who end up following these lunatic priestess of red god end up burning his daughter and loosing his head.. dont you consider it strange that Cotf who created the WW and 3ER all consider bran to be the one who will save mankind not some AA or TPTWP..

[Future Null Infinity]

2 hours ago, GhostNymeria said:

I do realize it. I never claimed we know if  any forshadowing for Jon actually forshadowing. It's just speculation. Daenerys as Azor Ahai/TPTWP is not a fact or proven yet. It's clear to you maybe, but that doesn't prove it. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I agree with you, nothing is proven until now, but in the show, they are both called the TPTWP by the red priestesses and I don't think it's a coincidence

[Jellofish]

I think it's Gendry I made a post about it but basically, he does have the blood of the dragon from Rhaelle Targaryen and Ormund Baratheon, the Azor Ahai has to forge a new sword and he's a friggin blacksmith, he was born amidst salt and smoke from the forgery not sure about the bleeding star but maybe the red comet is a sign of rebirth?

[Winterstars]

It's Jon. And it's known, haha. 

[blckp]

there is not such thing as 2 azor ahai, Daenerys is the only one and she is the 3 headed dragon, stallion who mounts the world, the one who was promised , azor ahai champion of r'hllor 

 

she will deal with white walkers after she is done with her things , thats why WW will wait till she crosses the narrow sea and do her other things

[aikojai]

Dany along with the Iron Throne are the series' two biggest red herrings .

Jon is Azor Ahai : "'I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow.'" - Melisandre , ADWD and :

"Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again."- Jon , ADWD .

Jon is the prince that was promised : 'Promise me , Ned .' His is the son(g) of ICE (Lyanna Stark) and FIRE (Rhaegar Targaryen) .

[Lord Lannister]

I doubt it will be spelled out to us. I think the characters are going to end up doing whatever it is they'll do and once it's all over we'll still be debating who it was or if they're two separate people.

[dancinglion]

correct me if i am wrong the prophesy state that AA will wield lightbringer as a singular not lightbringers.. dany has 3 dragons not one.. 

[dancinglion]

4 hours ago, blckp said:

there is not such thing as 2 azor ahai, Daenerys is the only one and she is the 3 headed dragon, stallion who mounts the world, the one who was promised , azor ahai champion of r'hllor 

 

she will deal with white walkers after she is done with her things , thats why WW will wait till she crosses the narrow sea and do her other things

exactly. and she also eat shit and poops gold.

[GravyFace]

6 hours ago, dancinglion said:

correct me if i am wrong the prophesy state that AA will wield lightbringer as a singular not lightbringers.. dany has 3 dragons not one.. 

Drogon is Lightbringer, not the other two dragons. AA wields Lightbringer, Dany is Drogon's rider. The other two will be ridden/warged by other people who aren't AA, therefore they are not Lightbringer. 

Drogon's egg was literally placed next to Drogo's heart in the pyre. He was essentially "forged" in Drogo's heart, like how Lightbringer was forged when plunged in Nissa Nissa's heart.

 

AA originally had certain elements he forged, or tried to forge, Lightbringer in. Water, a Lion, and his wife. Dany has the elements but in the opposite fashion. Dany isn't male, so the elements she has are a contrast to AA's original elements. She has fire (instead of water), she has a lamb (MMD, a Lhazareen aka "lamb men", instead of a lion), and she has a husband (instead of a wife). She's got the opposing elements, she just does it all at once instead of trying the forge one at a time. Hell, Viserion even "shatters" the egg when he is born, like how the failed Lighbringer attempts shattered.

[MoIaF]

1 hour ago, GravyFace said:

Drogon is Lightbringer, not the other two dragons. AA wields Lightbringer, Dany is Drogon's rider. The other two will be ridden/warged by other people who aren't AA, therefore they are not Lightbringer. 

Drogon's egg was literally placed next to Drogo's heart in the pyre. He was essentially "forged" in Drogo's heart, like how Lightbringer was forged when plunged in Nissa Nissa's heart.

 

AA originally had certain elements he forged, or tried to forge, Lightbringer in. Water, a Lion, and his wife. Dany has the elements but in the opposite fashion. Dany isn't male, so the elements she has are a contrast to AA's original elements. She has fire (instead of water), she has a lamb (MMD, a Lhazareen aka "lamb men", instead of a lion), and she has a husband (instead of a wife). She's got the opposing elements, she just does it all at once instead of trying the forge one at a time. Hell, Viserion even "shatters" the egg when he is born, like how the failed Lighbringer attempts shattered.

Agreed. 

Another interesting connection between the dragons and Lightbringer is the Qarthian origin story of dragons From AGOT:

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“He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi,” the Lysene girl said. “Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return."

Compare that to the story of how AAR forged Lightbringer:

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"The third time, with a heavy heart, for he knew before hand what he must do to finish the blade, he worked for a hundred days and nights until it was finished. This time, he called for his wife, Nissa Nissa, and asked her to bare her breast. He drove his sword into her breast, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer, while her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon."

And now let's compare that to the birth of Dany's dragons:

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"She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.

Only death can pay for life.

And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don’t you see? Don’t you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children.

The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world."

 

 This is very specific wording used by GRRM, he knows how to use his words carefully. The cracking of the moon or the eggs is what ties in the birth of the dragons with the creation of Lightbringer.  Also note the smoke is whirling around Dany, i.e. born amongst smoke and salt (Dothraki sea)

[dancinglion]

that’s the whole thing on the superficial level dany does look like prime candidate for AA but if you look closely she is clearly not. If anything she clearly come across as red herring. When we first see dany goes into fire in season 1 she does look like she was reborn from her ashes. but now in retrospect knowing she is fire proof she clearly wasn’t reborn. She was just sitting in the fire. Because she saw in her dreams that by doing this dragons will be born again. and three eye raven must have to do with this as it is already known he goes into other people dream too. If anything it was three eye raven who wake dragons from stone. Dany was just the tool use to do it..

then come comparing nissa nissa with drogo. Again if you look closely there is a huge problem.. drogo is DEAD.. and whose life was use to bring dragons. Mirri maz dur life.. you know the witch screaming her lungs off ..

then come the lightbringer as prophesy clear state it singular. So the dany fan stretch and mold the prophesy to fit her in. saying only drogon counts and other two dragons does not. While clearly other two also love dany and consider her their mother.

So dany is clearly red harring. On the other hand jon is the prime candidate. First unlike dany his story is well connected with WW from day one. He is also son of ice and fire. And the whole thing with R+L=J .. it not because to give jon some claim for iron throne because it is impossible to prove to other characters that jon is targ forget about proving him to be legitimate one. The whole thing behind r+l=j is to prove he is born from the line of Aerys II and Rhaella.. and other signs like Melisandre only seeing snow. Jon dream about fighting with burning sword etc etc… so jon do come across as a stronger candidate for  AA..

[MoIaF]

Dany was most definitely reborn in the Dothraki sea at the end of season 1 when she emerged with her dragons. Here is D&D discussing how she is a new person after emerging from the pyre. They also talk about how people will follow her to the ends of the earth. 

Just because it happened twice in the show, it does not negate the fact that it happened. 

Here is a HBO special discussing this season (6)  where they clearly point out that both Dany and Jon were reborn, one in fire and one in ice. It starts at about 11:17. 

https://youtu.be/CNF7Pg13GBY

And BTW there is no stretching of logic, the dragons are associated with the moon and the cracking and Dany herself is also associated with the moon. The symbolism and imagery are very clear.