Maester Crypt Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Most believe Ned was the one who planned the concealing of Jon's identity but is it possible that Arthur was the one who set it all in motion? If Rhaegar had won on the Trident, there would have been no need to conceal Jon's identity. After his death and subsequent sacking of KL two week later, the war is lost and what's left of the Targaryan dynasty is on the run. The smart thing for Arthur to do is get behind the walls of Starfall and prepare for siege holdout/negotiation. Since Lyanna is most likely unable to travel, that option is mute until she has given birth. Does Arthur at this point even want to claim Jon's identity to the people of Westeros? There is not much left of a loyal army, he will not find a friend in Dorne and being in exile, on the run in the Free Cities doesn't sound all that great. Thus begins the process of concealing Jon's identity... There are two babies, Jon from Rhaegar/Lyanna and Allyria from Ned/Ashara. Allyria gets installed as Arthur/Ashara sister and Ashara was to claim Jon as her child with Ned. Once both babies were inside Starfall, the three kingsguard would make their way to Dragonstone and defend what's left of the Targaryans. I don't see them bending a knee to Robert. Jon's identity would be safe from the wrath of Robert as Ned would know he had slept with Ashara. Jon would grow up with the Dayne name and not have to deal with the stigma of a "bastard" label hanging over him. Of course Ned found them at the TOJ before everything was set in place, the plan ended up changing and Jon had to grow up a "bastard" with the name of Snow. That was something amongst many things that haunted Ned for the rest of his life. Purely speculation I know but I always wondered what was Arthur thinking at that point in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Actually we are not sure if he had any plan or if he followed Rhaegar's plan. I believe that his plan was to kill any obstacle if there was one, which was the easy part, and then take the baby to Essos to raise him in order to come back one day and claim the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 13 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: Actually we are not sure if he had any plan or if he followed Rhaegar's plan. I believe that his plan was to kill any obstacle if there was one, which was the easy part, and then take the baby to Essos to raise him in order to come back one day and claim the throne. He could have met up with Viserys and Dany and than raised all the Targs together. It would have been cool to have Arthur Dayne train and raise Jon and Viserys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Crypt Posted July 23, 2016 Author Share Posted July 23, 2016 7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: take the baby to Essos to raise him in order to come back one day and claim the throne. I understand out here that would be the popular opinion as most want Jon to claim the throne but I think at that point in time the safest option is to conceal Jon's identity. Arthur could have bent the knee, asked to retire back in Starfall and raised Jon under the Dayne name. He would still have had the opportunity in the future to reveal who Jon truly was. The concealing of Jon's identity was the safest bet even for Arthur then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, The Wolves said: He could have met up with Viserys and Dany and than raised all the Targs together. It would have been cool to have Arthur Dayne train and raise Jon and Viserys. I don't think so. A third child with Viserys and Dany would had been a danger for the extinction of house Targaryen. A hidden heir would had been able to continue the line. 2 minutes ago, Maester Crypt said: I understand out here that would be the popular opinion as most want Jon to claim the throne but I think at that point in time the safest option is to conceal Jon's identity. Arthur could have bent the knee, asked to retire back in Starfall and raised Jon under the Dayne name. He would still have had the opportunity in the future to reveal who Jon truly was. The concealing of Jon's identity was the safest bet even for Arthur then. I never said to tell everyone who the baby is. Raise the baby, obtain an army and when the baby is grown up to fight then return to Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Crypt Posted July 23, 2016 Author Share Posted July 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: I never said to tell everyone who the baby is. Raise the baby, obtain an army and when the baby is grown up to fight then return to Westeros. He could have done that from the safety and security of Starfall. No need to go on the run. Raise and train Jon, then acquire your army when the time comes to make your claim to the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, Maester Crypt said: He could have done that from the safety and security of Starfall. No need to go on the run. Raise and train Jon, then acquire your army when the time comes to make your claim to the throne. I don't see how Jon would had been safe in Dorne. Martells wouldn't had been so happy with the baby of the woman that was the reason Rhaegar abandoned his family. And how exactly he would had obtain an army in Dorne? He would need to buy one from Essos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Crypt Posted July 23, 2016 Author Share Posted July 23, 2016 5 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: I don't see how Jon would had been safe in Dorne. Martells wouldn't had been so happy with the baby of the woman that was the reason Rhaegar abandoned his family. And how exactly he would had obtain an army in Dorne? He would need to buy one from Essos. From my original post, Jon's identity is concealed, he is the product of Ned and Ashara. What interest would the Martells have in him? I never said he would obtain an army in Dorne. As you say, when the time came he could buy one from Essos. Arthurs safest option was concealing Jon's identity. He wanted to protect his childhood friends son, he was loyal to his friend and not some dynastic claim. Whatever plans Rhaegar had died with him at the Trident. At that point, Arthur's only concern is with the health of Lyanna and the birth of Rhaegars child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 16 hours ago, Maester Crypt said: From my original post, Jon's identity is concealed, he is the product of Ned and Ashara. What interest would the Martells have in him? I never said he would obtain an army in Dorne. As you say, when the time came he could buy one from Essos. Arthurs safest option was concealing Jon's identity. He wanted to protect his childhood friends son, he was loyal to his friend and not some dynastic claim. Whatever plans Rhaegar had died with him at the Trident. At that point, Arthur's only concern is with the health of Lyanna and the birth of Rhaegars child. Ashara was known to have a dead daughter which would mean that she was born some time before Jon, so who would believe that he was Ashara's and Ned's son. The only way Ashara would had been able to claim that he was hers then it would had been from someone else but the fact that he looks like Ned would had made someone think twice about who he was and if someone find the truth the Martells would had killed him before Tywin trying to do it. So, the best thing about Jon would had been either Winterfell or Essos. Who said that Rhaegar was his childhood friend? We know that he was Rhaegar's best friends, we know nothing about his feelings about Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Crypt Posted July 25, 2016 Author Share Posted July 25, 2016 On 24/07/2016 at 6:25 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said: Ashara was known to have a dead daughter which would mean that she was born some time before Jon, so who would believe that he was Ashara's and Ned's son. Barriston thinks Ashara had a stillborn daughter, that she threw herself from a tower soon after over grief for the lost child and perhaps the man who dishonoured her at Harrenhal. The dishonour done to Ashara was that the man never married her, it has nothing to do with Ashara being forcefully taken at Harrenhal. He believes the man to be Stark. If he had crowned her and professed his love, Ashara never would have been dishonoured and killed herself. Ned ends up marrying Catelyn, that is the dishonour caused to Ashara. Ashara is only at court maybe two and a half years (if that) for Barristan to stalk her, lol. The most likely reason for her leaving court was the disappearance of her brother or the murder of Rickard and Brandon, she perhaps even witnessed it. It is not because of a pregnancy she is trying to hide. During war no one cares about a insignificant lady or house at that point. Barristan only finds out about her stillborn child and death, some time in 284AC at the earliest. So Barristan hears the news, thinks back on Harrenhal, associates a married Stark at this point, as the father and we get his recollection of the events. There is no idea when stillbirth and suicide occurred. My point being, it is possible that within Starfall, Ashara was known to be pregnant during the war. I do believe Arthur was the one who started the process of concealing Jon's identity, that his end goal was to get Jon safely into Starfall, and claim he was the child of Ned and Ashara. Unfortunately Ned and his friends came across them at the TOJ before they were able to get to Starfall and those plans were adjusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drekinn Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 I thought Arthur saying ''Now it begins'' meant he was ready to pledge his service to Jon, and since Ned wanted to take him away the Kingsguard had no choice but to fight them. ''The Kingsguard does not flee''. Perhaps Rhaegar ordered them to defend his child as well but that's just baseless speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Ganondorf Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 I feel as if the Kingsguard during the time of Aerys have been established not as do-ers, but as followers. None of them show initiative like this, they are purely followers. If Arthur Dayne did something, it was at Rhaegar's instruction. Remember that Arthur and Oswell weren't seen since before the war even escalated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 On 7/23/2016 at 9:45 AM, Maester Crypt said: Most believe Ned was the one who planned the concealing of Jon's identity but is it possible that Arthur was the one who set it all in motion? No. Arthur was there to protect Lyanna and her child by Rhaegar. The plan was set in motion after Lyanna exacted a promise from ned before she died a terribly painful death. Arthur, being the greatest knight in living memory and possibly of all time did not expect to lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam_Up_Bxtch Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Dayne saying "and now it begins" was definitely him pointing to the fact that he was protecting the heir to the Targaryen Dynasty in that tower. Dayne was essentially starting another "rebellion" in that moment since Robert was technically now King, if he had succeeded in killing Ned, he probably would of taken Jon to the free cities to gather support for a re institution of the Targs to power, using Viserys and Dany as tools to marry and gain allies like Viserys tried to do with Dany in the beginning of the series, although I think Dayne probably would of done a better job gathering support since he was a widely famous and respected Knight, Viserys himself was a begger essentially with no friends. Plus Dayne and Rhaegar were childhood friends so Dayne would of done everything he could to protect Jon and staying in Westeros with the Targaryen heir would of been way too dangerous for an ex-Kingsguard member even if you had hidden him. Ned taking in Jon as his "bastard" was a much better cover which worked out in the end. It is fun to speculate about what might have happened had things gone differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 5 minutes ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said: Dayne saying "I wish you good fortune in the wars to come, and now it begins" was definitely him pointing to the fact that he was protecting the heir to the Targaryen Dynasty in that tower. Dayne was essentially starting another "rebellion" in that moment since Robert was technically now King, if he had succeeded in killing Ned, he probably would of taken Jon to the free cities to gather support for a re institution of the Targs to power, using Viserys and Dany as tools to marry and gain allies like Viserys tried to do with Dany in the beginning of the series, although I think Dayne probably would of done a better job gathering support since he was a widely famous and respected Knight, Viserys himself was a begger essentially with no friends. Plus Dayne and Rhaegar were childhood friends so Dayne would of done everything he could to protect Jon and staying in Westeros with the Targaryen heir would of been way too dangerous for an ex-Kingsguard member even if you had hidden him. Ned taking in Jon as his "bastard" was a much better cover which worked out in the end. It is fun to speculate about what might have happened had things gone differently. first, that is quote of show. this is book forum. second, who said arthur and rhaegar are childhood friends? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam_Up_Bxtch Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 4 minutes ago, purple-eyes said: first, that is quote of show. this is book forum. second, who said arthur and rhaegar are childhood friends? i edited it, its been a while and the book and show's scenes are similar and dissimilar in a couple ways, (the last bit about "something" beginning is the same in the show and the book it is debatable what he means by this, keeping his vow to protect the royal family, which is what Jon would be if Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped) I assumed they were? Or am I mistaken? I thought for sure they were.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makk Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 On 7/24/2016 at 10:25 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said: Ashara was known to have a dead daughter which would mean that she was born some time before Jon, so who would believe that he was Ashara's and Ned's son. Can anyone offhand tell me all the sources that indicate this is the case? I know Barristan thinks about it but were there any other sources? He is one of the most unreliable narrators imo because he is the most gullible. If he hears a rumor he thinks credible without seeing it (in this case that rumor is Ned and Ashara), he will believe it to be true. I just don't know how Barristan would witness the events first hand since he was off fighting a war at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makk Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 34 minutes ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said: i edited it, its been a while and the book and show's scenes are similar and dissimilar in a couple ways, (the last bit about "something" beginning is the same in the show and the book it is debatable what he means by this, keeping his vow to protect the royal family, which is what Jon would be if Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped) I assumed they were? Or am I mistaken? I thought for sure they were.... The fact they eloped is a theory, but a pretty convincing one imo. The common story was that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her. But there doesn't seem like much of a reason for 3 of the kingsguard to be there if they weren't guarding the prince or king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam_Up_Bxtch Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 17 minutes ago, Makk said: The fact they eloped is a theory, but a pretty convincing one imo. The common story was that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her. But there doesn't seem like much of a reason for 3 of the kingsguard to be there if they weren't guarding the prince or king. They were following the Prince's orders in this situation, and Rhaegar is their prince and disobeying his orders would be treason essentially and it would be against their vows as part of the Kingsguard even if they did or did not know about Jon, whether they wanna be there or not is not the real question here they don't have a choice, and Rhaegar was gonna try and depose of his father through a grand council anyways (He tells Jaime this). So Aerys wouldn't be the "King" for very long in this case. Lets be honest here I'm like 100% sure they knew about Jon, by the time Ned gets to the ToJ Rhaegar was dead, nothing was keeping them there now that Rhaegar was dead UNLESS a member of the royal family (a Prince/Heir) was present. but another question here is did Dayne and the others know Rhaegar was dead already? Or had they been ordered to stay there until his return and Ned's arrival is the first time they are receiving news about the outcome of the war and finding out that Rhaegar is gone? If an heir is in that tower this doesn't matter either way since they'd still give their lives to defend a member of the royal family but this could explain why they didn't pack up the moment Jon was born and take him with them back to KL to also protect the King and Rhaegar's surviving kids after hearing of Rhaegar's death, if they didn't even know yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 8 hours ago, Makk said: The fact they eloped is a theory, but a pretty convincing one imo. The common story was that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her. But there doesn't seem like much of a reason for 3 of the kingsguard to be there if they weren't guarding the prince or king. Wut? How the fact that he may kidnapped means that if that was true the KG wouldn't be there? 8 hours ago, Makk said: Can anyone offhand tell me all the sources that indicate this is the case? I know Barristan thinks about it but were there any other sources? He is one of the most unreliable narrators imo because he is the most gullible. If he hears a rumor he thinks credible without seeing it (in this case that rumor is Ned and Ashara), he will believe it to be true. I just don't know how Barristan would witness the events first hand since he was off fighting a war at the time. No one else said anything about a daughter just about her death. However I don't see why a daughter would had been a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.