Arya endgame?

[Arya Targaryen]

4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

snip

I'm still not convinced. Arya/Gendry definitely had a romantic undertone - until he let her down. I don't think it will just continue. But we will see.

[a black swan]

5 hours ago, GhostNymeria said:

Thank you for this awesome post I agree with all of it, and I think it shows that Arya, like Bran, still is going have an important role in the war against the others, like the original outline said. Look at these parallells and look closer what Arya actually is learning with the Faceless men,  it's not just to change her face and kill people. Lets just say this, if she becomes a ruler, people are going to have a very hard time lying to her or try to play her false. She will see through their facade. And not to mention her unique understanding (as a noble) for commoners.

The impotance to her connection with magic shouldn't be overlooked. Her, Bran, Jon, Dany are the POV's that have a magic theme through out these books. This is why I have very hard time dismissing Arya's future as just "an assassin who will kill a bunch of people", while the other three is predicted here to be important political figures and fight white walkers.

It's interesting that grrm has Nymeria described as a "witch" by Bran. And later we find out it isn't true:

"In the songs, Nymeria is said to have been a witch and a warrior; neither of these claims is true. Though she did not bear arms in battle, she led her soldiers on many battlefields, commanding them with cunning and skill."

Nym also had several marriages and appreciated the importance of a political marriage. In Braavos, Arya has learned to sacrifice, act and be patient - would she ever accept such a proposal in the future? I think so.

Seems none of the Stark children will get the futures they wanted or expected. 

[a black swan]

51 minutes ago, Arya Targaryen said:

I'm still not convinced. Arya/Gendry definitely had a romantic undertone - until he let her down. I don't think it will just continue. But we will see.

Especially the way GRRM mentioned them recently when he said he would revise that pair. Almost wistfully, "They were so young" or something like that. 

[Maester of Valyria]

15 hours ago, TheSeer27 said:

I was just thinking this lol. Her training in the HOBAW could be to save someone, not just kill. Mostly her ability to smell poisons seems a good defense.

Agreed: she'll know just how to counter the Faceless Men's attacks. I believe her skinchanging abilities will give her an edge over the more experienced assassins.

 

Does anyone think she'd fit in well with the Free Folk? Independent and feisty woman etc? Just saying.

[delspark]

1.If Jon vs Dany happens then Arya can practically put all her trained skills to infiltrate Dany's army and dethrone the Mad Queen.

2.If the big threat is the Others, then her talent can come into foreplay by eliminating invisible but cunning schemers like Varys.

 

 

[delspark]

On 7/24/2016 at 8:20 AM, chrisdaw said:

 

Her arc is predominantly about these two things;

1) Vengeance vs justice

2) Freedom vs duty

This is excellent observation and the way explanation is clear cut.

 

8 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The Arya/Jon relationship is brother sister only. It's a Ned/Lyanna parallel. It had to be special because it had to get Jon to break his vows, as Ned betrayed his honour for Lyanna (safety of her child).

GRRM is the one shipping Arya and Gendry.

The ships, White Hart and Black Betha, come together (shipping, get it? He's shipping them). 

Jon/Arya relationship was bull's eye (Though ardent fans of Jon/Arya ship will counter attack with superficial statements from books) but your justification about Gendry and Arya as a couple just doesn't sell. Its more of a wistful thinking and too much reading in between the lines rather than factful.

If you can use "ships" as an instance, what's not to stop others from theorising using every other object described by GRRM? 

 

[Meera of Tarth]

13 hours ago, DutchArya said:

I dunno what it all means but from the top of my head, these links stand out:

 

- Both Bran & Arya are training under mysterious magical beings. The similarities between the BR and the HoBW are several.

- They are both wargs AND skinchangers, the only Starks who can do both.

- Their mysterious mentors: Both BR and the KM have one eye and look like skeltons.

- Bran sees Arya in Leaf, the CoTF assisting him. Much like Waif who is assisting the KM. Even their names sound similar. Waif Leaf. 

- Arya has strong links to trees, she is a great climber and throughout her journeys, Arya would climb trees and dance among the branches. Jumping from tree to tree, she felt at home as does Bran.

- Both Bran and Arya have been called "Squirrels" a name the Giants gave the CoTF.

- Arya and Bran are the only POVs to have met a CoTF in some capacity.

- They are the two most connected to the wolf pack. Bran takes over a pack while warging Summer, he defeats a one-eyed wolf - probably being warged by BR. Arya's wolf pack connections are obvious.

- Both Stark children are learning to wear faces: Arya with human faces and Bran with Weirwood faces that "bleed".

- Both have eaten paste from trees.

- Leaf tells Bran: After he weds the weirwood tree he will move on and one day see through any tree. In a moment at Acorn Hall, Arya actually calls herself an Oak Tree. That is also the tree she ate the paste from.

- Arya has wished to become a wolf with wings. Bran is the wolf with wings.

 

On another note.

 

Robb not including Arya among his dead siblings at the sealing of his Will. Why would GRRM do that? It is such an obvious omission. Robb stays publicly silent on Jon and Arya when he talks to his witnesses. We know Jon is legitimised. But what of Arya? If Robb thinks she is dead, why not mention her along with his other dead siblings? Does this leave the door open for Arya's claim on Winterfell and the North to play a factor in her end game? 

Excellent points! I hadn't noticed the trees connection between them, or the faces

I think that Bran will have a connection with Arya through the trees. In fact, I think it may have already happened!

I think I read that in this thread:

it's  along one, but IIRC there were some essays on that Bran witnesses what Arya is doing in the Riverlands through the trees.

[The Fattest Leech]

14 hours ago, DutchArya said:

I dunno what it all means but from the top of my head, these links stand out:

 

- Both Bran & Arya are training under mysterious magical beings. The similarities between the BR and the HoBW are several.

- They are both wargs AND skinchangers, the only Starks who can do both.

- Their mysterious mentors: Both BR and the KM have one eye and look like skeltons.

- Bran sees Arya in Leaf, the CoTF assisting him. Much like Waif who is assisting the KM. Even their names sound similar. Waif Leaf. 

- Arya has strong links to trees, she is a great climber and throughout her journeys, Arya would climb trees and dance among the branches. Jumping from tree to tree, she felt at home as does Bran.

- Both Bran and Arya have been called "Squirrels" a name the Giants gave the CoTF.

- Arya and Bran are the only POVs to have met a CoTF in some capacity.

- They are the two most connected to the wolf pack. Bran takes over a pack while warging Summer, he defeats a one-eyed wolf - probably being warged by BR. Arya's wolf pack connections are obvious.

- Both Stark children are learning to wear faces: Arya with human faces and Bran with Weirwood faces that "bleed".

- Both have eaten paste from trees.

- Leaf tells Bran: After he weds the weirwood tree he will move on and one day see through any tree. In a moment at Acorn Hall, Arya actually calls herself an Oak Tree. That is also the tree she ate the paste from.

- Arya has wished to become a wolf with wings. Bran is the wolf with wings.

 

On another note.

 

Robb not including Arya among his dead siblings at the sealing of his Will. Why would GRRM do that? It is such an obvious omission. Robb stays publicly silent on Jon and Arya when he talks to his witnesses. We know Jon is legitimised. But what of Arya? If Robb thinks she is dead, why not mention her along with his other dead siblings? Does this leave the door open for Arya's claim on Winterfell and the North to play a factor in her end game? 

These are all excellent connections between Bran (the Woodancer) and Arya. And doesn't Arya have oak leaves and acorns all over her dress as well? So she is , for a little bit, in a tree.

7 hours ago, DutchArya said:

Especially the way GRRM mentioned them recently when he said he would revise that pair. Almost wistfully, "They were so young" or something like that. 

This is what GRRM said about Arya and Gendry. The "me" was actually my friend who I was with that asked these questions:

Me: So Arya and Gendry, I felt like there were many romantic undertones between them in the books. Are you building towards something between them? Are you planning on developing a future relationship?..

GRRM: *smiling* I'm going to visit them again, but I'm not spoiling everything for you. They are still very young.

Me: But you wrote the Mercy chapter...

GRRM: Yes, I did write Mercy. Arya is growing up fast.

Me: Will Arya be flowering in TWOW?..

Spoiler

GRRM: *nods his head and smiles again* Soon..

 

[a black swan]

5 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Excellent points! I hadn't noticed the trees connection between them, or the faces

I think that Bran will have a connection with Arya through the trees. In fact, I think it may have already happened!

I think I read that in this thread:

it's  along one, but IIRC there were some essays on that Bran witnesses what Arya is doing in the Riverlands through the trees.

 

Yup, the connections with Bran are so interesting.

Bran sees Arya in Leaf.

A cloud of ravens was pouring from the cave, and he saw a little girl with a torch in hand, darting this way and that. For a moment Bran thought it was his sister Arya … madly, for he knew his little sister was a thousand leagues away, or dead. And yet there she was, whirling, a scrawny thing, ragged, wild, her hair a tangle…

And the Arya thing stood over them, clutching her torch… That was not Arya’s voice, nor any child’s. It was a woman’s voice, high and sweet, with a strange music in it like none that he had ever heard and a sadness that he thought might break his heart. Bran squinted, to see her better. It was a girl, but smaller than Arya, her skin dappled like a doe’s beneath a cloak of leaves. - ADWD

 

ARYa_Nym did a fantastic job collecting these quotes about Arya and trees. Reading these and remembering how Bran confused Leaf for Arya. The fact that she is a powerful warg/skinchanger, crossing pathes with the Ghost of High Heart...etc.

"She slashed at birch leaves till the splintery point of the broken broomstick was green and sticky. She spun and leapt and balanced on the balls of her feet, darting this way and that, knocking pinecones flying. Her arms and legs were dappled by sunlight and the shadow of leaves." 

---

"Whenever she had a free hour she stole away to work at the drills Syrio had taught her, moving barefoot over the fallen leaves, slashing at branches and whacking down leaves. Sometimes she even climbed the trees and danced among the upper branches, her toes gripping the limbs as she moved back and forth, teetering a little less every day as her balance returned to her. Night was the best time; no one ever bothered her at night. Arya climbed. Up in the kingdom of the leaves, she unsheathed and for a time forgot them all ;losing herself in the feel of the rough wood beneath the soles of her feet and the swish of sword through air."

Arya even describes Jaqen as a tree. 

 

[chrisdaw]

8 hours ago, delspark said:

If you can use "ships" as an instance, what's not to stop others from theorising using every other object described by GRRM?

No it can't be done at random, it's explained in the post why the ships represent what they represent. To believe otherwise is to believe in a hell of a lot of coincidences pushing the one direction in a meticulously crafted series by a single person. It just doesn't happen. The same person wrote the character description of Black Betha, wrote her history, named her Black Betha, had Arya take the alias Beth, had a ship named after her, then locked it with a ship named White Hart and pumped romantic and sexual language into the scene. You really think he wasn't thinking anything when he wrote all this?

[delspark]

7 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

You really think he wasn't thinking anything when he wrote all this?

The more we dig the hidden context behind all that GRRM keeps writing, the more different ways we can keep guessing. Arya needs to flower to get emotionally and physically attracted to Gendry and when that happens she will be caught up in the war against the Others.Trying to match her with a male for the sake of romance is just absurd because she is a strong independent girl. I really wonder whether she would agree to a marriage, much less a political marriage.

 

[GhostNymeria]

18 hours ago, DutchArya said:

It's interesting that grrm has Nymeria described as a "witch" by Bran. And later we find out it isn't true:

"In the songs, Nymeria is said to have been a witch and a warrior; neither of these claims is true. Though she did not bear arms in battle, she led her soldiers on many battlefields, commanding them with cunning and skill."

Nym also had several marriages and appreciated the importance of a political marriage. In Braavos, Arya has learned to sacrifice, act and be patient - would she ever accept such a proposal in the future? I think so.

Seems none of the Stark children will get the futures they wanted or expected. 

Yes, the witch thing is interesting. Could it mirror Arya's future as a leader of Nymeria's pack? If that happens I can see her enemies and some people of Westeros calling her a witch if she's going around controlling a giant wolfpack. I mean, there were rumors that Robb could turn into a giant wolf in the battlefield, so it's not that unlikely actually.

I agree about political marriages. Arya started as someone who would be the most likely to reject any political marriage. I think pre-Braavos Arya would have tried to escape any marriage arrengements. Now, as you said, she's learned to sacrifice, act and be patient. And as chrisdaw said, her character growth seems to be going in a duty direction rather than revenge. 

I also think none of the Stark children will get the futures they wanted. Or the future they wanted/tought at the beginning of the story, at least. It seems to be going in that direction.

[a black swan]

27 minutes ago, delspark said:

The more we dig the hidden context behind all that GRRM keeps writing, the more different ways we can keep guessing. Arya needs to flower to get emotionally and physically attracted to Gendry and when that happens she will be caught up in the war against the Others.Trying to match her with a male for the sake of romance is just absurd because she is a strong independent girl. I really wonder whether she would agree to a marriage, much less a political marriage.

 

Why? I don't understand this thinking? So strong independent girls wouldn't ever want to fall in love, be married and all of that? She isn't forever 9 years old, dirty, and child-like. 

GRRM has already said Arya will flower in the next book. She is being offered apprenticeships to Braavosi courtesans like the Merling Queen who (conveniently) only take on newly flowered maidens. I wonder how useful it will be?  Arya has already used her femininity to lure her target. 

[a black swan]

53 minutes ago, GhostNymeria said:

Yes, the witch thing is interesting. Could it mirror Arya's future as a leader of Nymeria's pack? If that happens I can see her enemies and some people of Westeros calling her a witch if she's going around controlling a giant wolfpack. I mean, there were rumors that Robb could turn into a giant wolf in the battlefield, so it's not that unlikely actually.

I agree about political marriages. Arya started as someone who would be the most likely to reject any political marriage. I think pre-Braavos Arya would have tried to escape any marriage arrengements. Now, as you said, she's learned to sacrifice, act and be patient. And as chrisdaw said, her character growth seems to be going in a duty direction rather than revenge. 

I also think none of the Stark children will get the futures they wanted. Or the future they wanted/tought at the beginning of the story, at least. It seems to be going in that direction.

Like how Bran dreamed of being a Knight and then the Fall happened. Sansa wanting a Prince Charming and then Joffery happened. Robb being groomed to follow in his father's footsteps and lead the North yet dies prematurely. Rickon, who knows what he wanted/would've been? Jon a Bastard turned King of the North. Arya wanted to be a "King’s councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?” Bless this sweet summer child. 

Arya's refers to Northmen as her pack. Nym being a Leader of a pack of wolves, reminiscent of her namesake also leading in her own right - a pattern is likely to occur. How do you think it will factor in the battle with the Others though? The wolves would be massacred by the NK's army of dead. 

"Stick 'em with the point end" is an oft repeated line and GRRM's favorite. It must have an important relevance to Arya and to Jon who first said it. 

 

 

[GhostNymeria]

2 hours ago, DutchArya said:

Like how Bran dreamed of being a Knight and then the Fall happened. Sansa wanting a Prince Charming and then Joffery happened. Robb being groomed to follow in his father's footsteps and lead the North yet dies prematurely. Rickon, who knows what he wanted/would've been? Jon a Bastard turned King of the North. Arya wanted to be a "King’s councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?” Bless this sweet summer child. 

Arya's refers to Northmen as her pack. Nym being a Leader of a pack of wolves, reminiscent of her namesake also leading in her own right - a pattern is likely to occur. How do you think it will factor in the battle with the Others though? The wolves would be massacred by the NK's army of dead. 

"Stick 'em with the point end" is an oft repeated line and GRRM's favorite. It must have an important relevance to Arya and to Jon who first said it. 

I think it's hard to predict how a pack of wolves would fair against wights. They would be no match for one giant wight army, but I think they could be used as weapon against scattered wights. Maybe Arya, though Nymeria, will know when and where the danger is closing in, so that the nortmen have time to prepare/arm or escape. I don't know really, I just assume the pack will have a part to play, otherwise I don't see the point of Grrm writing about them. 

[a black swan]

9 minutes ago, GhostNymeria said:

I think it's hard to predict how a pack of wolves would fair against wights. They would be no match for one giant wight army, but I think they could be used as weapon against scattered wights. Maybe Arya, though Nymeria, will know when and where the danger is closing in, so that the nortmen have time to prepare/arm or escape. I don't know really, I just assume the pack will have a part to play, otherwise I don't see the point of Grrm writing about them. 

I know, whatever grrm has planned, he has really left it open to some major surprises. 

You know the strategic attack that your described would be very useful targeting the WW themselves. It would be exactly the type of distraction/chaos needed for a Valyrian sword or dragon glass to strike and kill WWs. 

[BricksAndSparrows]

I'm rereading the first book and I noticed something interesting in Arya's final chapter. She talks about old Nan's stories of people getting on merchant cogs and going off to have adventures. She wonders if that will happen to her. Which is funny, because eventually, it does. It makes me excited to read the rest of her chapters now and wonder what other little prophecy we will find.

On 7/23/2016 at 8:04 PM, TheSeer27 said:

 How does facechanging fit in to the endgame and what importance will it hold? Why is it so sought after by the Faceless Men?

For assassins, I can see why that ability would be so valuable. It's one of the things that makes them be so effedctive, they can use the power to get extremely close, and then disappear since their pursuers would not know who they are going to be after.

But i don't think Arya will ever become a faceless man. She still hasn't let go of Arya's past. I suspect she never will. Her connection to her Direwolf is too strong. However much progress she makes in letting go of Arya Stark, Nymeria is there like a anchor, always bringing her back.

I have this sad feeling that Arya will ultimately die. I think her story will end with the Game of Thrones. But maybe she will go into the wolf when she passes, and in that way she will lend herself to the Battle Royale with the Others (if it ever happens.)

 

[delspark]

9 hours ago, DutchArya said:

Why? I don't understand this thinking? So strong independent girls wouldn't ever want to fall in love, be married and all of that? She isn't forever 9 years old, dirty, and child-like.

I'm not saying Arya doesn't deserve love or she should forever stay alone. Arya is mature for her age and has gained more experiences than her peers at the age of 9. 

 

Unlike Sansa, Arya is realistic and doesn't believe stories of gallant knights saving damsels in distress. Unlike most significant females in Asoiaf (Dany/Cersie/Ariann/Brienne), she knows what's at stake when one is in love. She understands that love would affect all rational judgement. That's the whole point of her training in the HoBW. Why does the old man in the HoBW ask her to throw away her identity, her belongings and to kill unknown people? The reason is not to have attachments.

 

Arya is striving to achieve some greater status than these female characters. Otherwise what is the point of her whole arc, if she is going to spend steamy nights in bed with lover (like Dany) or use only her sexuality (like Cersie) to control people?

 

[a black swan]

2 minutes ago, delspark said:

I'm not saying Arya doesn't deserve love or she should forever stay alone. Arya is mature for her age and has gained more experiences than her peers at the age of 9. 

 

Unlike Sansa, Arya is realistic and doesn't believe stories of gallant knights saving damsels in distress. Unlike most significant females in Asoiaf (Dany/Cersie/Ariann/Brienne), she knows what's at stake when one is in love. She understands that love would affect all rational judgement. That's the whole point of her training in the HoBW. Why does the old man in the HoBW ask her to throw away her identity, her belongings and to kill unknown people? The reason is not to have attachments.

 

Arya is striving to achieve some greater status than these female characters. Otherwise what is the point of her whole arc, if she is going to spend steamy nights in bed with lover (like Dany) or use only her sexuality (like Cersie) to control people?

 

Arya is literally introduced in the books for the first time by Jon as he described her being "in love". She is like her aunt Lyanna, who was just as pragmatic and seeing life and people for who they really are. She demonstrates that by seeing through Robert and his brand of "love" and the marriage she would expect with him. She has no fantasies about that. Yet she goes and runs off with a Dragon Prince and has a baby? You can't prepare for Love or fight its magic and the futility in trying is a huge struggle in this story for many characters and one that Arya is completely capable of facing. 

Girls like Sansa aren't the only type who can fall in love and find a happiness and usefulness in the pursuit. Arya learned of Nymeria from an old song, a woman she respects enough to name her own direwolf after. Nym married 3 times and has an infamous book written about her affairs called "The Loves of Queen Nymeria". She marries for political reasons, entirely pragmatic and a means to an end. One of her husbands was a knight of House Dayne and Sword of the Morning and gave her a son. 

Her training in the HoBW sees Arya excel at the practical tasks and skills like learning languages or understanding people's motivations and lying to the KM, Yet she struggles with the internal stuff. Why? She can't divorce herself from Arya Stark when every time she goes to sleep she becomes the Night Wolf and has Needle hidden away. The kills she makes are entirely emotional and are what gets her in trouble. She feels deeply despite all her efforts.

I think she will definitely return to Westeros in the books as a maiden grown, highborn and an heir to Winterfell and the North. She is extremely valuable. Will she allow herself to be used? And if so, under what circumstances and for whose gain? Arya has spent a lot of time since KL sacrificing parts of herself to survive or seek justice for her family. If she was in a position where she could sacrifice her own ambitions and perceived freedoms with the aim of raising up her House or protecting the people she loves - do you think she is capable of doing that? If so, would that not be bittersweet for Arya Stark? 

I mentioned earlier, the Stark children will not end with the life they all grew up expecting or wishing for. This is plain to see. 

 

[Raisin' Bran]

1 hour ago, DutchArya said:

.snip.

I appreciate the amount of thought you have put into the possible outcomes of Arya's arc. You have made a lot of good observations and have pieced together a very plausible outcome to her part in the story. You have given me a lot to think about.

I think no matter what, any triumph that Arya achieves will be bittersweet.

"Only death can pay for life" does not have to be literal, though plenty of literal death has accompanied her in her journey. It could also be metaphorical in terms of what she may sacrifice in defense of her loved ones.