Jump to content

Benjen Joining The Night's Watch Rumination (SPOILERS)


Jaemi Greysnow

Recommended Posts

I just listened to the Radio Westeros R+L=J podcast, in particular the part where they theorise that Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna  could have actually been a rescue from Aerys' men, with the comparison to Doran Martell's "Someone always talks". This inspired my wonderment; do we think perhaps Benjen was the one who "talked", assumedly by mistake or perhaps under coersion, and this is in fact why he joined the Night's Watch, blaming himself for the events as they transpired. I'm sure I'm not the first person to consider this, what are our thoughts 'pon  it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Why would Rhaegar rescue or abduct Lyanna from his father's own men?

Because of Aerys' penchant for fire?

Lyanna was KotLT and Aerys thought KotLT posed some danger to him; things wouldn't go well for Lyanna, should Aerys find out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Why would Rhaegar rescue or abduct Lyanna from his father's own men?

Because of the whole Knight of the Laughing Tree thing, Aerys branded the Knight a traitor and sent Rhaegar after her. 

 

4 hours ago, Michael Mertyns said:

Benjen was a third son in a Northern House. It would not be unusual for him to join the NW.

Sure that's possible, but that feels to me a bit like what we're meant to think, not what actually will have happened. it's a bit pedestrian y'know. Like initially the "Promise" is framed so it seems like it's to take her bones home, but later it opens up.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So the Starks and Robert were perfectly fine with Aerys arresting Lyanna with the intention of killing her, but incensed by Lyanna eloping with Rhaegar to avoid execution?

Then Brandon thought that Rhaegar rescued Lyanna from his father only to take her to KL and Aerys anyway?

I am not sure who you are proposing that Benjen talked to - Aerys' men or Rhaegar?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

11 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

So the Starks and Robert were perfectly fine with Aerys arresting Lyanna with the intention of killing her, but incensed by Lyanna eloping with Rhaegar to avoid execution?

Then Brandon thought that Rhaegar rescued Lyanna from his father only to take her to KL and Aerys anyway?

I am not sure who you are proposing that Benjen talked to - Aerys' men or Rhaegar?

I'm not suggesting anybody was fine with anything, snippy.

We don't know the full story of the events do we. Benjen was young, maybe somebody overheard him bragging to somebody, or maybe he bragged to the wrong person, it seems like he would've been involved with the KotLT because he initially offered to find armour for Howland, so he probably did the same for Lyanna. And with Lady Gwyn's suggestion that "Somebody always talks", well there's not that many people that could have talked, 'cause not that many people will have known.

Basically, if you don't like the Radio Westeros theory, then this whole Benjen idea is moot, so don't sweat it.

And I've never been satisfied with the 3rd son explanation for Benjen joining the watch

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Jaemi Greysnow said:

 

I'm not suggesting anybody was fine with anything, snippy.

We don't know the full story of the events do we. Benjen was young, maybe somebody overheard him bragging to somebody, or maybe he bragged to the wrong person, it seems like he would've been involved with the KotLT because he initially offered to find armour for Howland, so he probably did the same for Lyanna. And with Lady Gwyn's suggestion that "Somebody always talks", well there's not that many people that could have talked, 'cause not that many people will have known.

Basically, if you don't like the Radio Westeros theory, then this whole Benjen idea is moot, so don't sweat it.

And I've never been satisfied with the 3rd son explanation for Benjen joining the watch

Apologies if you feel I was being curt, that was far from my intention. Although we do not know all the facts, I see no way in which this theory can account for the facts we do know. I would not be surprised if there was an undisclosed reason why Benjen felt the need to take the black so soon after the end of the Rebellion, when Ned's line was still fragile, but I do not believe this is it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok mate no worries :-)

Yeah there is definitely more to the Benjen story; I like this idea, but I've literally had about an hour on either side of sleeping to think about it, so on further inspection who knows what I'll think.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

Apologies if you feel I was being curt, that was far from my intention. Although we do not know all the facts, I see no way in which this theory can account for the facts we do know. I would not be surprised if there was an undisclosed reason why Benjen felt the need to take the black so soon after the end of the Rebellion, when Ned's line was still fragile, but I do not believe this is it.

I don't believe Benjen takes the black until after the Greyjoy Rebellion and the birth of Bran. At that point he is fourth in line for WF with Ned, Robb and Bran ahead of him. The Stark line would appear safe at this time then. Mance mentions he travelled to WF with the Lord Commander when Jon was a boy to meet the new Lord of Winterfell, I believe he mentions seeing Benjen there at that point. This visit occurs some time between the ending of Roberts Rebellion and the start of the Greyjoy Rebellion. My assumption is Benjen was in control of WF while Ned was in the south with Robert during the Greyjoy Rebellion. After the war ends, Bran is born and Benjen decides to take the black. He's around 23 at this point, no viable match for a mate and fourth in line to WF. The joining of the Night's Watch would be viewed as an honourable and noble choice amongst the Starks. Seems to me to be a plausible explanation for him taking the black.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Maester Crypt said:

I don't believe Benjen takes the black until after the Greyjoy Rebellion and the birth of Bran. At that point he is fourth in line for WF with Ned, Robb and Bran ahead of him. The Stark line would appear safe at this time then. Mance mentions he travelled to WF with the Lord Commander when Jon was a boy to meet the new Lord of Winterfell, I believe he mentions seeing Benjen there at that point. This visit occurs some time between the ending of Roberts Rebellion and the start of the Greyjoy Rebellion. My assumption is Benjen was in control of WF while Ned was in the south with Robert during the Greyjoy Rebellion. After the war ends, Bran is born and Benjen decides to take the black. He's around 23 at this point, no viable match for a mate and fourth in line to WF. The joining of the Night's Watch would be viewed as an honourable and noble choice amongst the Starks. Seems to me to be a plausible explanation for him taking the black.

Nope, he joined soon after Ned's return to WF after RR.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/ConQuest_Kansas_City_MO_May_27_294

6) When, specifically, did Benjen join the NW? Was it a couple of years after Ned returned, or immediately?

It was within a few months of Ned's returning. The reason being that there always was a Stark at Winterfell, so he had to stay there until Ned returned. GRRM refused to say the reason why Benjen had to join the NW.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Maester Crypt said:

I don't believe Benjen takes the black until after the Greyjoy Rebellion and the birth of Bran. At that point he is fourth in line for WF with Ned, Robb and Bran ahead of him. The Stark line would appear safe at this time then. Mance mentions he travelled to WF with the Lord Commander when Jon was a boy to meet the new Lord of Winterfell, I believe he mentions seeing Benjen there at that point. This visit occurs some time between the ending of Roberts Rebellion and the start of the Greyjoy Rebellion. My assumption is Benjen was in control of WF while Ned was in the south with Robert during the Greyjoy Rebellion. After the war ends, Bran is born and Benjen decides to take the black. He's around 23 at this point, no viable match for a mate and fourth in line to WF. The joining of the Night's Watch would be viewed as an honourable and noble choice amongst the Starks. Seems to me to be a plausible explanation for him taking the black.

GRRM said otherwise in an SSM:

When, specifically, did Benjen join the NW? Was it a couple of years after Ned returned, or immediately?

It was within a few months of Ned's returning. The reason being that there always was a Stark at Winterfell, so he had to stay there until Ned returned. GRRM refused to say the reason why Benjen had to join the NW.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Benjen knew something about Aerys's plans, he would have talked to his father and brothers. And we would know. If he knew something, it was about Lyanna and Rhaegar's plan. That is why he took the Black. Because he knew and didn't prevented it. He was Lyanna's younger brother, near her age. Her only possible accomplice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Nope, he joined soon after Ned's return to WF after RR.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/ConQuest_Kansas_City_MO_May_27_294

6) When, specifically, did Benjen join the NW? Was it a couple of years after Ned returned, or immediately?

It was within a few months of Ned's returning. The reason being that there always was a Stark at Winterfell, so he had to stay there until Ned returned. GRRM refused to say the reason why Benjen had to join the NW.

Thanks, I didn't know he said that.

This means Benjen has been in the NW for 12-14yrs at the start of the books?

Odd that Mance mentions nothing about Benjen in his visit to WF with the Lord Commander after the war. Wouldn't this had been around the time that Benjen joins the Night's Watch?

I am intrigued now why he joined at such a young age. He would be no older than 17 at the time I think.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not likely.

Benjen's interest in the Night's Watch goes back to Harrenhal at least. Lyanna's abduction came later.

Besides, what would he have known and who would he have talked to? Do you think he ratted out his own sister (who could probably kick his butt) as the KotLT? If so, he'd have had to get to KL by himself, inform someone at court, and then get back to Winterfell, where he spent the duration of the war. If he'd just told his father, Rickard would have done everything in his power to keep it secret. No way he'd let his only daughter get roasted...literally...by king firebug.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Jaemi Greysnow said:

 

I'm not suggesting anybody was fine with anything, snippy.

We don't know the full story of the events do we. Benjen was young, maybe somebody overheard him bragging to somebody, or maybe he bragged to the wrong person, it seems like he would've been involved with the KotLT because he initially offered to find armour for Howland, so he probably did the same for Lyanna. And with Lady Gwyn's suggestion that "Somebody always talks", well there's not that many people that could have talked, 'cause not that many people will have known.

Basically, if you don't like the Radio Westeros theory, then this whole Benjen idea is moot, so don't sweat it.

And I've never been satisfied with the 3rd son explanation for Benjen joining the watch

It has been pointed out to us a few times in the books that a person cannot properly put on a suit of armor without help, so Benjen definitely helped her put the armor on and probably got it for her to.

Benjen took the black because he liked the concept, GRRM himself said Benjen took the plea from the NWmen at Harrenhall to heart.  I think if there is a reason he did it so quickly it could simply be that all the memories at WF were to painful for him, or because he knew Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly but did not tell anyone and felt that maybe his father and brother would be alive if he had.

Edit:  As to why Rhaegar took her at that specific time.  There is no evidence at all to suggest Aerys knew who was the tkotlt or that he was sending men for Lyanna.  The simpler answer is simply that was Rhaegars last chance.  We can only speculate as to why Lyanna was at Harrenhall, but she was likely leaving Harrenhall for the wedding at Riverrun.  With Robert and Rickard together at a wedding they would have likely set a date for Lyanna and Roberts wedding, and Lyanna may well have returned to WF with her family, taking her beyond Rhaegars reach.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was never suggesting Benjen knew any of Aerys's plans in the first place, nor was I suggesting he ratted out his sister to Aerys. I'm wearing a Stark teeshirt as I write this for heaven's sake, all Stark's are beyond reproach as far as I'm concerned :-D maybe he found out later that he'd been overheard or whatever, from Ned.

Anyway, I'm not trying to convince anybody of it, 

like I've already said, I like Lady Gwyn's "somebody always talks" theory, and I think we've established that there's probably nobody else who would've known she was the KotLT so that's that, then. 

None of us can say with certainty why he joined.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There might be something to the theory.  I think something was up.  At one point (don't ask me where as I can't seem to find it), Ned says something about Benjen feeling guilty.  We know Benjen and Lyanna were close in age and together a lot (flashback scenes from Bran show the two together on two occasions, and also in scenes together at the tournament - we're hard put in fact to find scenes where he isn't with her so I'm assuming that whatever mischief Lyanna got up to Benjen was in the know).

I don't know if Lyanna was abducted or ran off with Rhaegar.  Whichever the case, someone had to take the message to the Starks that she was abducted, as that is the story they received and that Brandon acted upon.  My best guess as to who that someone would be is Benjen Stark.

It's possible that Benjen was covering for Lyanna running off with Rhaegar by saying he abducted her, and this one lie is his guilt, as it led directly to all subsequent events, and would account for him taking the black after the war as a personal penance.

To me, this is the simplest explanation, but there's so much we don't know that there are many possibilities.  I do know that romance stories of the Rhaegar/Lyanna type in medieval literature often had the trope of the missed message/unreliable messenger included in them, and I think something of the sort took place.  It is inconceivable to me that if Lyanna willingly eloped with Rhaegar that she would not have sent a word of explanation or apology to her family; or that if she was in fact abducted that some sort of explanation wasn't sent from Rhaegar or anyone.  I do believe there is a missed or misunderstood message in the middle of it all, and it's not a stretch to think Benjen might have been the messenger.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

There might be something to the theory.  I think something was up.  At one point (don't ask me where as I can't seem to find it), Ned says something about Benjen feeling guilty.  We know Benjen and Lyanna were close in age and together a lot (flashback scenes from Bran show the two together on two occasions, and also in scenes together at the tournament - we're hard put in fact to find scenes where he isn't with her so I'm assuming that whatever mischief Lyanna got up to Benjen was in the know).

I don't know if Lyanna was abducted or ran off with Rhaegar.  Whichever the case, someone had to take the message to the Starks that she was abducted, as that is the story they received and that Brandon acted upon.  My best guess as to who that someone would be is Benjen Stark.

It's possible that Benjen was covering for Lyanna running off with Rhaegar by saying he abducted her, and this one lie is his guilt, as it led directly to all subsequent events, and would account for him taking the black after the war as a personal penance.

To me, this is the simplest explanation, but there's so much we don't know that there are many possibilities.  I do know that romance stories of the Rhaegar/Lyanna type in medieval literature often had the trope of the missed message/unreliable messenger included in them, and I think something of the sort took place.  It is inconceivable to me that if Lyanna willingly eloped with Rhaegar that she would not have sent a word of explanation or apology to her family; or that if she was in fact abducted that some sort of explanation wasn't sent from Rhaegar or anyone.  I do believe there is a missed or misunderstood message in the middle of it all, and it's not a stretch to think Benjen might have been the messenger.

 

Yeah, I don't pretend to know or understand the specifics, but this idea is as good as any other; he's guilty for something he said or didn't say that in some way made the situation worse, Ned comes home and he is told just how much impact his mistake has had, and he punishes himself/cleanses himself of the percieved crime by joining the watch.

 I really just can't see his reason for joining the watch turning out to be the standard one that all the other 2nd & 3rd sons had for joining.

Or, as if Ned would be like "You're 17, time to go, you can't possibly still live in Winterfell now I'm back and am the lord and we've lost all the other members of our family so c'mon off you go, I've been home a few months chop chop on yer way!"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...