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R+L=J v.162


Ygrain

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Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

- TWOIAF

“But I am not certain it was in Rhaegar to be happy.”
“You make him sound so sour,” Dany protested.
“Not sour, no, but … there was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar, a sense …” The old man hesitated again.
“Say it,” she urged. “A sense …?” 

“… of doom. He was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all his days.”

- ASOS, Dany IV

And as they stood so, their hands met and clasped, though they did not know it...

It reminds me of Númenor,’ said Faramir, and wondered to hear himself speak.
‘Of Númenor?’ said Éowyn.
‘Yes,’ said Faramir, ‘of the land of Westernesse that foundered, and of the great dark wave climbing over the green lands and above the hills, and coming on, darkness unescapable. I often dream of it.’
Then you think that the Darkness is coming?’ said Éowyn. ‘Darkness Unescapable?’ And suddenly she drew close to him.
‘No,’ said Faramir, looking into her face. ‘It was but a picture in the mind. I do not know what is happening. The reason of my waking mind tells me that great evil has befallen and we stand at the end of days. But my heart says nay; and all my limbs are light, and a hope and joy are come to me that no reason can deny. Éowyn, Éowyn, White Lady of Rohan, in this hour I do not believe that any darkness will endure!’ And he stooped and kissed her brow.

- The Return of the King, Ch.5 The Steward and the King

 

 

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On August 27, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Lord Varys said:

Sure, at that time they would have interacted with each other. But we have no clue how long Lewyn was away from court leading those Dornishmen up to KL nor do we know when exactly his forces joined Rhaegar's. We don't even know whether Rhaegar spoke to his father after he talked to Lewyn, and if he only learned about the threats from him.

Vice versa we also don't know whether Lewyn directly talked to Rhaegar or whether they used intermediaries. That would be somewhat odd but not necessarily impossible or unheard of.

Prince Lewyn is dispatched with his message and his royal command to take charge of the 10,000 Dornish troops approximately at the same time Hightower goes to find Rhaegar - both around the time of the exile of Connington after Stony Sept. The one to bring fresh troops to the field, and the other to bring Rhaegar to be their new commander. The both travel about the same distance as the troops are on the King's Road in Dorne, Rhaegar is found at the Tower of Joy in the Prince's Pass. Or, at least, that is their most probable location. There is no reason to believe they arrive in King's Landing at very different times, over similar distances. They may have even met up on the road and travelled part of the return journey together.

LV, yes, there are many things of which we don't know the details. That doesn't mean in trying to figure out the most likely missing elements we should think all possibilities are equal. We can construct elaborate ways for Lewyn and Rhaegar not to interact, but the likelihood is they did. We can construct equally unlikely scenarios in which Rhaegar doesn't know his family is held hostage against Dornish conduct, but it is likely he finds this out - by a direct threat to himself by Aerys's order, by Lewyn or others informing him what the king has done, or by discovering himself when he gets to King's Landing the restrictions put on his family.

On August 27, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Lord Varys said:

Well, Aerys certainly could have decided something like that. But it is one thing to tell your son 'I have to keep your (former?) wife and children here to protect my royal person against Dornish treason (thanks to your ridiculous Stark business)' and to actually tell your son that he'll burn his children alive should he not do as he says.

Not to mention that we actually have no hint that Rhaegar ever tried to get Elia and the children away from Aerys. Perhaps he did not care? Aerys could have told him that Elia refused to see him or something of that sort. She might have been very hurt by the Lyanna affair, after all.

Of course there is a difference, but in both cases the threat is real. As we are told very clearly in many places in the books, such as the hostages surrendered to Jon by the wildings, the hostage taker has to be willing to follow through on the threat for the threat to have any force. Do we really doubt Aerys was willing to follow through with his threat to Prince Doran? Given his history, how can one have any doubt he would absolutely harm his hostages if he doesn't get what he wants? I have no doubt Rhaegar believes his father would carry out his threat.

Then the question is only is this a threat to Rhaegar as well as against Doran? Does Rhaegar care what happens to Elia and his children? The Rhaegar we are told of does care. We know of his fondest for his wife. We know of his belief of the importance of his children with his belief Aegon is the Prince Who Was Promised, and the need for three heads of the Dragon. Even if we accept the idea that Rhaegar didn't love his children - something not supported by any account - he certainly wants his children free from threat of harm.

As to Elia's feeling for her husband at this point, I can't say what she felt, but what I can guess is the most likely way to bring Rhaegar and Elia back together - if not as husband and wife - is by threatening their children. The moment Aerys makes clear Aegon and Rhaenys are not free of the threat, he has united their father and mother even if they are estranged by Lyanna.

On August 27, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Lord Varys said:

Does he? I'm not so sure about that. And neither do we know what status Elia and the children still during the Rebellion. If Rhaegar did replace Elia with Lyanna then Aegon and Rhaenys might have lost their status as royal children and legitimate heirs just as Cersei's children presumably would have had Robert set aside her as she fears in AGoT (and Renly planned for him to do with his Margaery idea).

Yes, he does. Prince Doran knows, without a doubt, that Aegon sitting on the Iron Throne is a huge potential benefit for Dorne. To have a King who sees himself as part of the Dornish people could have profound effects on the how the King distributes his royal largesse. This reality has nothing to do with the hypotheticals you propose. The underlining interest for Dorne is to put Aegon on the throne, and the extremely smart Prince of Dorne is well aware of this basic, and, yes, simple fact. To assume otherwise is totally out of character not only for Prince Doran, but for the world Martin has created.

 

On August 27, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Lord Varys said:

It is not absurder than assume that Rhaegar would not immediately remove a threat to Aegon's life once he realizes that such a threat exists. The life of hostages usually is pretty safe, after all.

How does Rhaegar accomplish the removal of the threat to the lives of his family members? Does he assassinate his father? Does he stage a military coup? Does he call a Great Council? Just how does Rhaegar do these things? Especially, how does he do these things in the midst of the rebellion. Look at the balance of power at the moment you are talking about, and I think you will see Rhaegar's power is not such that he has a likely chance of doing any of these things.

On August 27, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Lord Varys said:

But Aerys is not the kind of man who would blackmail somebody into service this way who could use his power to overthrow him.

As I said earlier, Aerys needs Rhaegar. He needs him because his other options are rapidly failing him or have already done so, and Rhaegar is the last real hope of uniting the loyalist forces in the effort to defeat the rebellion. That doesn't mean there isn't a risk to Aerys in bringing Rhaegar back and giving him command of a new army, but he has little or no choice. Should he turn over the task to Tywin? Tywin ignores his orders. The Tyrell army sits in siege of Storm's End. The Greyjoys have committed to neither side. And the Martells are just angry about every slight and threat. What else should he do? Lead the army himself?

On August 27, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Lord Varys said:

Jaime indicates that this kind of thing was quite common in Aerys' last day. It was particularly bad in the night Dany was conceived but there is no reason to assume Hightower never witnessed something like that or a milder version of it.

I'm quite sure Hightower has seen some form of abuse, whether he considers it that or not, of Rhaella through the years. We read of some of that in Yandel's history. I don't think this accumulation of spousal abuse is Hightower's tipping point, but I could be wrong. I only pointed out it was not the abuse that Darry and Jaime hear as they guard the royal chamber because Hightower is long gone when that happens. My theory is that it is the threat to Elia and her children that moves Hightower to join with Dayne and Whent in their loyalties. It may be something else, but it is the best answer I can come up with for the time being.

On August 27, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Lord Varys said:

The problem here is that we have to ask ourselves what the point of the new plot element of Aerys and his people thinking that Lyanna's coronation was evidence for a Rhaegar-Stark conspiracy was. That was a completely new element in TWoIaF. We already had Rhaegar being unhappy with the way his mad father did things and hints that he intended to do something about that (ASoS) and clues that Rhaegar was effectively plotting treason with Ser Oswell Whent (ADwD) which was then confirmed in TWoIaF.

But what was the narrative point to introduce the Aerys-Rhaegar mistrust plot in the first place and why the hell did the Starks become part of all that in Aerys' mind at Harrenhal?

I think this provides us with a major key to resolve most of the Lyanna-Rhaegar mystery around the abduction.

If Aerys believed that Rhaegar crowning Lyanna was evidence for a Rhaegar-Stark conspiracy against him despite the fact the Starks were visibly unhappy about that then the logical endpoint of that development is that Aerys is also likely to believe that Brandon threatening Rhaegar is also part of this show/mummer's farce Rhaegar and his buddies are playing. 

The idea that Aerys would come to defense of his ingrate son shortly after he has realized that Rhaegar was actually plotting with Rickard Stark against makes absolutely no sense.

If the coronation was 'evidence' for a Rhaegar-Stark conspiracy then 'Lyanna's abduction' (or her marriage to Rhaegar) would be evidence for such a conspiracy, too, regardless what Brandon or Rickard said to the contrary.

Here we have a very major difference in our views. We have touched on this subject before and I don't want to change this conversation into one about Southron Ambitions or what went on at Harrenhal, but my take is almost opposite of yours, LV. 

I don't think Aerys sees Lyanna's crowning as part of a Rhaegar-Stark conspiracy. Just the opposite. It is a political slap at the Starks by the Crown Prince. It is Rhaegar stepping up at the last moment in Harrenhal and telling the assembled lords that his loyalties are with his father, in a language Aerys fully understands.

Let me be clear. I think Harrenhal is called by Rhaegar to test the waters for support in calling a Great Council. I think they basically spit in his face, with the messenger being Brandon Stark. The message is sent through the "dishonoring" of Lady Ashara, lady in waiting of Princess Elia, and sister to Rhaegar's best friend and protector. The Starks make it clear they will not support such a Council and instead will construct their own alliances amongst the Great Houses in opposition to Rhaegar's plan. The marriage alliances will continue regardless of Aerys's move to remove Jaime from them by "honoring" him with a white cloak. What Rhaegar does by crowning Lyanna is to say to all of Westeros that the Crown Prince has an interest in her and her proposed marriage to Robert. He claims her, by honoring her just as Jaime was, and tells the assembled he stands with his father against this emerging plot against Targaryen rule. In very shortened form, this is my read of what happens at Harrenhal. Quite a bit different than yours, I know, and we should probably leave it to another discussion because it needs much more elaboration than possible when thrown in with everything else.

On August 27, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Lord Varys said:

There is no hint Aerys ever felt threatened by the Stark-Tully marriage nor the Stark-Baratheon marriage.

There are plenty of hints, but again, let's leave this to another discussion.

On August 27, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Lord Varys said:

But that's not the impression we get from Yandel. He tells us Aerys saw the coronation as evidence for a conspiracy, not the other stuff. And he thinks people were conspiring with Rhaegar against him, the king, not against the royal dynasty.

I think you misread Yandel's account. It is the "lickspittle lords" who advance the idea the crowning was part of a Rhaegar/Stark conspiracy, not Aerys himself. Aerys understands what his son did. It is done in the same way he "honored" Jaime.

On August 27, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Lord Varys said:

Lets just say I don't think the man thinks much. The way he described as being seen by the men at Harrenhal suggests he was very far gone and clearly incapable of coherent thought often enough. People capable of rational decisions don't go from mad laughter to weeping for no reason in a number of seconds. Aerys' paranoia was fueled by fear and if you are constantly afraid you don't think rationally even if you no other mental issues. His main problem clearly was that he was unable to differentiate real/dangerous threats from imagined/harmless threats.

Or perhaps he thinks too much. He seems to always be considering new enemies, and new dangers, for no real reason. We agree he is fundamentally ill, but we will have to disagree on how much that means about his ability for rational thought.

Let me leave it there tonight, take care, and good night.

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On ‎8‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 4:42 PM, Tucu said:

OK, but that is only you don't count the flexibility in conception (up to 6 days after sex), pregnancy duration (38 to 42 weeks is normal) and time and cause of Lyanna's death.

It is true that if Dany is Aerys' daughter and the age difference between Dany and Jon is 8 to 9 months, then the timing is very tight for Ned to reach the tower of joy close to Jon's birth. But there is enough flexibility to make the theory possible without changing Dany's father; delay conception, extend pregnancy and make Ned arrive later.

Daenerys tells us that her mother's pregnancy lasted nine moons.  GRRM has not explained what a moon is, in precise terms.  He has not given us exact timing of pregnancies.  He doesn't refer to delay in any conceptions.  Instead of looking at the three percent, let's concentrate on the 97%. 

Is it unreasonable that Jon is born three to seven days before Ned arrives?  No.

Is it unreasonable for Jon to have been born between the sack of King's Landing and two weeks later?  No.

Is it unreasonable for Ned to arrive at the tower up to 3 weeks after the sack of King's Landing?  No.

Is it unreasonable for Ned to have had a guide take him directly to the tower of joy?  No.

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10 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

Daenerys tells us that her mother's pregnancy lasted nine moons.  GRRM has not explained what a moon is, in precise terms.  He has not given us exact timing of pregnancies.  He doesn't refer to delay in any conceptions.  Instead of looking at the three percent, let's concentrate on the 97%. 

Is it unreasonable that Jon is born three to seven days before Ned arrives?  No.

Is it unreasonable for Jon to have been born between the sack of King's Landing and two weeks later?  No.

Is it unreasonable for Ned to arrive at the tower up to 3 weeks after the sack of King's Landing?  No.

Is it unreasonable for Ned to have had a guide take him directly to the tower of joy?  No.

3 weeks to cover more than 1200 miles (as the raven flies), lifting a siege and ending in enemy territory in the middle of the Prince's Pass (Dorne surrendered a lot later). Thats almost 60 miles a day for 21 days.

Just getting to Storm's End would have taken 2 weeks.

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5 hours ago, Tucu said:

3 weeks to cover more than 1200 miles (as the raven flies), lifting a siege and ending in enemy territory in the middle of the Prince's Pass (Dorne surrendered a lot later). Thats almost 60 miles a day for 21 days.

Just getting to Storm's End would have taken 2 weeks.

Well, as I have said before, then Daenerys' father cannot be Aerys, if it take Ned more than 2-3 weeks. 

Dropping back a bit, Jonothor Darry is present for Daenerys' conception (we assume that it is during the rape that Jaime witnesses).  Yet, Jonothor travels to the Trident with Rhaegar, and King's Landing is sacked in the space of a fortnight.  Ned arrives at King's Landing as it is being sacked.  I believe that it is likely that GRRM intends for us to understand that Robert arrived the same day, since the children and Elia are presented in crimson cloaks to hide the blood.  The blood must be fresh, not day(s) old.  I don't believe that travelling from the Ruby Ford is going to take less time than travelling to Storm's End, for Ned.  It shouldn't take any longer than that for him to go directly to the tower, since he seems to have had a guide.  (*cough* Ethan) 

So, in GRRM's words, "Put your stopwatch and ruler away, and enjoy the story." 

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1 hour ago, MtnLion said:

Well, as I have said before, then Daenerys' father cannot be Aerys, if it take Ned more than 2-3 weeks. 

Dropping back a bit, Jonothor Darry is present for Daenerys' conception (we assume that it is during the rape that Jaime witnesses).  Yet, Jonothor travels to the Trident with Rhaegar, and King's Landing is sacked in the space of a fortnight.  Ned arrives at King's Landing as it is being sacked.  I believe that it is likely that GRRM intends for us to understand that Robert arrived the same day, since the children and Elia are presented in crimson cloaks to hide the blood.  The blood must be fresh, not day(s) old.  I don't believe that travelling from the Ruby Ford is going to take less time than travelling to Storm's End, for Ned.  It shouldn't take any longer than that for him to go directly to the tower, since he seems to have had a guide.  (*cough* Ethan) 

So, in GRRM's words, "Put your stopwatch and ruler away, and enjoy the story." 

Are you saying that the time between Rhaegar's departure and the Sack of KL is just two weeks? I know that Rossart was hand for a fortnight, but I can't see how the two armies moved so quickly. I always assumed that there were an unconfirmed interim time between Chelsted and Rossart and that Aerys raped Rhaella again the night before her departure.

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9 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Are you saying that the time between Rhaegar's departure and the Sack of KL is just two weeks? I know that Rossart was hand for a fortnight, but I can't see how the two armies moved so quickly. I always assumed that there were an unconfirmed interim time between Chelsted and Rossart and that Aerys raped Rhaella again the night before her departure.

Offhand that would seem reasonable.  Thinking about Aerys' state of mind during a war where he knows that he is losing, does not suggest that he would waste any time before appointing a new Hand.  Further, if more than a week passed between the night of the rape, and news of the Trident, Jaime wouldn't remark about being able to see the marks on Rhaella as she departed King's Landing. 

Now, for myself, having a good grasp of military history; I know that an army travels on its stomach.  The lead is never going to be very far ahead of the wheeled kitchen, or grazing cattle.  I just don't believe that GRRM took that into account. 

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2 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

Offhand that would seem reasonable.  Thinking about Aerys' state of mind during a war where he knows that he is losing, does not suggest that he would waste any time before appointing a new Hand.  Further, if more than a week passed between the night of the rape, and news of the Trident, Jaime wouldn't remark about being able to see the marks on Rhaella as she departed King's Landing. 

I think you are adding time constraints that are not on the books that make the timeline hard to believe. I just assume another rape before Rhaella's departure; the whispers from the maidens point to a new event.

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7 hours ago, Tucu said:

I think you are adding time constraints that are not on the books that make the timeline hard to believe. I just assume another rape before Rhaella's departure; the whispers from the maidens point to a new event.

I don't think one has to assume that. There are all kinds of approximations of time that get thrown out as exact times in this period. For instance, Martin's oft quoted comment about the difference between Jon and Daenerys of being "eight or nine months" is really "probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts." Meaning it could be more than nine months, or less than eight. Daenerys's thoughts about being born "nine moons" after the flight to Dragaonstone is not the same as nine moons from her conception. What's the time difference between the two is unknown. Because we know the rape of Rhaella takes place on the night Aerys burns Lord Chelsted doesn't mean he appoints Rossart to be his Hand the same day. So, the Hand for a "fortnight," which in and of itself is likely an approximation, is not necessarily the Hand from Chelsted's death to the sack. This period doesn't have to be exactly fourteen days. The idea that the blood on the bodies of Elia and her children has to be "fresh" is only some reader's contention of what dried blood would look like on hypothetical crimson cloaks. It is not proof Robert arrives the same day as Ned does or anything like that. Given his injuries that is highly unlikely. On, and on it goes. There is a good deal more "slack" in these times than is often asserted.

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8 hours ago, MtnLion said:

Offhand that would seem reasonable.  Thinking about Aerys' state of mind during a war where he knows that he is losing, does not suggest that he would waste any time before appointing a new Hand.  Further, if more than a week passed between the night of the rape, and news of the Trident, Jaime wouldn't remark about being able to see the marks on Rhaella as she departed King's Landing. 

Now, for myself, having a good grasp of military history; I know that an army travels on its stomach.  The lead is never going to be very far ahead of the wheeled kitchen, or grazing cattle.  I just don't believe that GRRM took that into account. 

Yes, GRRM mostly ignores logistics. Still...

Battle of Trident is won. Rebel armies send a fast (probably cavalry) force to start the siege of King's Landing (first step would be to cut off roads - ideal job vor cavalry). Cavalry CAN travel light, esp. if Crownlands are pretty intact and forage can be had there. Thus Ned arrives 14 days after Trident just as the Sack happens.  After short rest and argument with Rob, he takes his cavalry and goes to Storm's End (again, if he travels light, he would be faster there). Lifting of the siege always struck me as rather delivering message than a military op - he did not need army there, heck, even a hundred riders as escort would be enough. Mace did not have stomach to fight, not when he got confirmation Aerys is dead and Rhaegar too.

If they then hasted to Dorne, with remounts (or even changing mounts along the way) - few men can travel relatively fast. I guess they would be going under the banner of truce, with letters from Tyrells and others for safe passage. War is over, basically.

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3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I don't think one has to assume that. There are all kinds of approximations of time that get thrown out as exact times in this period. For instance, Martin's oft quoted comment about the difference between Jon and Daenerys of being "eight or nine months" is really "probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts." Meaning it could be more than nine months, or less than eight. Daenerys's thoughts about being born "nine moons" after the flight to Dragaonstone is not the same as nine moons from her conception. What's the time difference between the two is unknown. Because we know the rape of Rhaella takes place on the night Aerys burns Lord Chelsted doesn't mean he appoints Rossart to be his Hand the same day. So, the Hand for a "fortnight," which in and of itself is likely an approximation, is not necessarily the Hand from Chelsted's death to the sack. This period doesn't have to be exactly fourteen days. The idea that the blood on the bodies of Elia and her children has to be "fresh" is only some reader's contention of what dried blood would look like on hypothetical crimson cloaks. It is not proof Robert arrives the same day as Ned does or anything like that. Given his injuries that is highly unlikely. On, and on it goes. There is a good deal more "slack" in these times than is often asserted.

That is what I am saying. He was putting a contraint of 2 weeks between Rhaeghar departure of KL and the Sack; and maybe 3 weeks for Ned to reach the Tower of Joy (in time to arrive for Jon's birth window). Those constraints are not in the book and would not be believable;  I prefer to assume that there is flexibility of the time between all these events.

2 hours ago, Runaway Penguin said:

Yes, GRRM mostly ignores logistics. Still...

Battle of Trident is won. Rebel armies send a fast (probably cavalry) force to start the siege of King's Landing (first step would be to cut off roads - ideal job vor cavalry). Cavalry CAN travel light, esp. if Crownlands are pretty intact and forage can be had there. Thus Ned arrives 14 days after Trident just as the Sack happens.  After short rest and argument with Rob, he takes his cavalry and goes to Storm's End (again, if he travels light, he would be faster there). Lifting of the siege always struck me as rather delivering message than a military op - he did not need army there, heck, even a hundred riders as escort would be enough. Mace did not have stomach to fight, not when he got confirmation Aerys is dead and Rhaegar too.

If they then hasted to Dorne, with remounts (or even changing mounts along the way) - few men can travel relatively fast. I guess they would be going under the banner of truce, with letters from Tyrells and others for safe passage. War is over, basically.

Light cavalry can travel fast for short journeys. For longer journeys they do not move much faster than men on foot; and both are constrained by the speed of their supply chain and/or by the amount of supplies that the carry of their own. Foraging is a possiblity, but this slows them down.

Cat says that Ned left KL to fight the last battles of the war; so I assume that he left with his armies and that there were indeed some skirmishes in the way.

 

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51 minutes ago, Tucu said:

That is what I am saying. He was putting a contraint of 2 weeks between Rhaeghar departure of KL and the Sack; and maybe 3 weeks for Ned to reach the Tower of Joy (in time to arrive for Jon's birth window). Those constraints are not in the book and would not be believable;  I prefer to assume that there is flexibility of the time between all these events.

I'm sorry, I guess I didn't make myself clear. I'm agreeing with you. I think you're right.

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16 hours ago, Tucu said:

I think you are adding time constraints that are not on the books that make the timeline hard to believe. I just assume another rape before Rhaella's departure; the whispers from the maidens point to a new event.

My apologies, I believed that everything I had cited was easily retrievable from the books.  What are you having a difficult time tracing down? The whispers point to an event, and that certainly seems to be the one that Jaime witnessed (not a new one), from Jaime's point of view. 

Some suggest that Robert was too wounded to travel, but that is not the case.  It was Barristan that was severely wounded, and Robert sent his own Maester to tend to him.  That tells us that Robert is not severely wounded.  Robert traveled, he just did not LEAD the army, that he left to Ned.  So, as the army gets to King's Landing, Robert is trailing, rather than leading, and arrives at the same time, for all intents and purposes. 

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1 hour ago, MtnLion said:

My apologies, I believed that everything I had cited was easily retrievable from the books.  What are you having a difficult time tracing down? The whispers point to an event, and that certainly seems to be the one that Jaime witnessed (not a new one), from Jaime's point of view. 

Some suggest that Robert was too wounded to travel, but that is not the case.  It was Barristan that was severely wounded, and Robert sent his own Maester to tend to him.  That tells us that Robert is not severely wounded.  Robert traveled, he just did not LEAD the army, that he left to Ned.  So, as the army gets to King's Landing, Robert is trailing, rather than leading, and arrives at the same time, for all intents and purposes. 

The only timespan that we know of is the 2 weeks Rossart was Hand of the King (probably an approximation by Jamie). The world book places Rossart assignment after the news of the Trident reached the Red Keep. I assume that birds and couriers are faster than armies, so it took Ned at least two weeks to reach KL.

A quote about this:

Birds flew and couriers raced to bear word of the victory at the Ruby Ford. When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King's Landing with Rhaegar's children as a hostage against Dorne. Having burned his previous Hand, Lord Chelsted, alive for bad counsel during the war, Aerys now appointed another to the position: the alchemist Rossart

So assuming that at least a month passed between Rhaegar's departure and the Sack of KL seems reasonable. Two weeks for Rhaegar to reach the Trident, one day of battle, 2 weeks for Ned to reach KL (plus slack for preparations and resting probably)

Dany's conception could have happened the night before Rhaegar's departure, but this makes the timeline very tight for Ned arriving close to Jon's birth.

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1 hour ago, Tucu said:

The only timespan that we know of is the 2 weeks Rossart was Hand of the King (probably an approximation by Jamie). The world book places Rossart assignment after the news of the Trident reached the Red Keep. I assume that birds and couriers are faster than armies, so it took Ned at least two weeks to reach KL.

A quote about this:

Birds flew and couriers raced to bear word of the victory at the Ruby Ford. When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King's Landing with Rhaegar's children as a hostage against Dorne. Having burned his previous Hand, Lord Chelsted, alive for bad counsel during the war, Aerys now appointed another to the position: the alchemist Rossart

So assuming that at least a month passed between Rhaegar's departure and the Sack of KL seems reasonable. Two weeks for Rhaegar to reach the Trident, one day of battle, 2 weeks for Ned to reach KL (plus slack for preparations and resting probably)

Dany's conception could have happen the night before Rhaegar's departure, but this makes the timeline very tight for Ned arriving close to Jon's birth.

If you count Rhaegar's journey to the Trident with ALL of his royal forces (horseback and foot infantry) to be about two weeks, then you shouldn't count that as similar to Ned's journey to Kingslanding to be the same when he was most likely on horseback pursuing the scattered royal forces with his calvary, fighting men on horseback.  Cetainly Ned would arrived at Kingslanding less than 2 weeks.

Robert was wounded the day of the battle, assuming the battle took just one day.  Rested at least one to two days and traveled ahead of the foot infantry with horseback with decent pace, but not a fast pace.

I'm of the opinion that Ned was there the day of the sack.  He saw Jaime sitting on the throne, his blade fresh with blood after killing the king.

Tywin testified that Rhaegar's children's blood was still fresh the day Robert arrived.  Therefore Robert went to Kingslanding still wounded, although already patched up by his maesters or his wound was not that serious to be able to ride on his horse.  For certain, he was able to garner enough strength to face Ned with disdain and not care for the Targaryen kids, forcing Ned to leave the site altogether and travel straight to SE to lift the siege.

I don't think Ned stayed at Kingslanding that long.  At most, one to two days.  For sure he left the same day Robert arrived.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, IceFire125 said:

If you count Rhaegar's journey to the Trident with ALL of his royal forces (horseback and foot infantry) to be about two weeks, then you shouldn't count that as similar to Ned's journey to Kingslanding to be the same when he was most likely on horseback pursuing the scattered royal forces with his calvary, fighting men on horseback.  Cetainly Ned would arrived at Kingslanding less than 2 weeks.

Robert was wounded the day of the battle, assuming the battle took just one day.  Rested at least one to two days and traveled ahead of the foot infantry with horseback with decent pace, but not a fast pace.

I'm of the opinion that Ned was there the day of the sack.  He saw Jaime sitting on the throne, his blade fresh with blood after killing the king.

Tywin testified that Rhaegar's children's blood was still fresh the day Robert arrived.  Therefore Robert went to Kingslanding still wounded, although already patched up by his maesters or his wound was not that serious to be able to ride on his horse.  For certain, he was able to garner enough strength to face Ned with disdain and not care for the Targaryen kids, forcing Ned to leave the site altogether and travel straight to SE to lift the siege.

I don't think Ned stayed at Kingslanding that long.  At most, one to two days.  For sure he left the same day Robert arrived.

 

 

But Ned didn't arrive in less that two weeks. It took him at least two weeks. Rossart was named Hand of the King after the news of the Trident reached KL (as per my quote from the world book) and he ruled for a fortnight (according to Jamie). So Ned was marching at least during these two weeks (and a maximum of 2 weeks plus the time it took the news to reach the Red Keep plus the time it took Aerys to name a new hand)

If you want to make Rhaegar's journey longer, I am fine with that. It just makes the time between Rhaegar's departure and the Sack of KL longer than a month. I said at least a month, so we are in agreement.

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