R+L=J v.162

[Ygrain]

Sorry, I can't help but... What has it got in its tombses, my preciousss?

[Ygrain]

8 hours ago, Therae said:

This. And probably it requires a Stark the same way the black gate requires a sworn (and living) brother of the NW. But maybe in this case only a Stark can keep it closed?

Good ideas, both. And welcome to the boards :-)

[Therae]

Thank you!

[Runaway Penguin]

Maybe there is a weirwood throne? Maybe that is where Bran will sit in the end? Maybe Jon's destiny is to be the "public Stark" while Bran will be the real "Stark in Winterfell"?

[Jon Weirgaryen]

On 5.9.2016 at 5:33 PM, Ygrain said:

But it is a worthy addition to the other proposed contents: a dragon egg, the Targ wedding cloak, an official decree of Jon's legitimacy, the dried HH crown, Dark Sister... have I left anything out?

I am trying to imagine Jon's reaction when the tomb is opened: "Damn, that municipal dump here?"

Rhaegar's harp and "the prophecy" in writ, with margin annotations by him, I think.

[Runaway Penguin]

"First shalt thou espy the Dragon, then shalt thou count its heads to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then takest thou thy Iron Throne and turn thy dragon towards thy foe, who being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it."

[Alia of the knife]

On 9/5/2016 at 11:33 AM, Ygrain said:

But it is a worthy addition to the other proposed contents: a dragon egg, the Targ wedding cloak, an official decree of Jon's legitimacy, the dried HH crown, Dark Sister... have I left anything out?

I am trying to imagine Jon's reaction when the tomb is opened: "Damn, that municipal dump here?"

You forgot the harp. 

[Kingmonkey]

On 05/09/2016 at 5:15 PM, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Isn't Jon absolutely terrified every time he has the dream of going down into the crypts? It doesn't fit with him finding a harp, or even a dragon egg, frankly...it has the feel of something really ominous.

I read this as part of a GRRM theme of the necessity of characters to embrace their background before they can truly become who they're supposed to be. Just as Dany is held back when she fails to be the Dragon, and Quaithe keeps telling her she must go back to go forwards and must remember who she is, Jon must embrace his Starkness and get over the sense of alienation that his fear of the crypts represents before the man can be born.

I suspect that what Jon Snow will find in the crypts is himself, however that may be represented. Mythopoeically speaking, that's what people generally find in chthonic descents. 

 

 

[Black Crow]

very nicely put

[SFDanny]

7 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

I read this as part of a GRRM theme of the necessity of characters to embrace their background before they can truly become who they're supposed to be. Just as Dany is held back when she fails to be the Dragon, and Quaithe keeps telling her she must go back to go forwards and must remember who she is, Jon must embrace his Starkness and get over the sense of alienation that his fear of the crypts represents before the man can be born.

I suspect that what Jon Snow will find in the crypts is himself, however that may be represented. Mythopoeically speaking, that's what people generally find in chthonic descents. 

Exactly, the hero's journey to the underworld. Jon has to follow in the footsteps of Odysseus and Gilgamesh. It may be the oldest of well worn tropes, but it still works.

edit: speak of the devil! Haven't read it yet, but the title jumps out at you.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

15 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

I read this as part of a GRRM theme of the necessity of characters to embrace their background before they can truly become who they're supposed to be. Just as Dany is held back when she fails to be the Dragon, and Quaithe keeps telling her she must go back to go forwards and must remember who she is, Jon must embrace his Starkness and get over the sense of alienation that his fear of the crypts represents before the man can be born.

I suspect that what Jon Snow will find in the crypts is himself, however that may be represented. Mythopoeically speaking, that's what people generally find in chthonic descents. 

 

 

This was really well put, KM. I hadn't thought of this angle at all while reading.

[HallowedMarcus]

On ‎05‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 1:29 PM, Lord Varys said:

Jon Snow ever opening Lyanna Stark's tomb doesn't maky any sense. He would never do such tasteless thing - and unless he did not already know the truth about his parents there is no good reason why the hell he should be particularly interested in Lyanna's tomb.

Why don't we expect Ned hid stuff in Rickard or Brandon's grave? As Ned's bastard Jon should feel as close to Lyanna as to Brandon, and even closer to his paternal grandfather Lord Rickard. The man is definitely his ancestor.

I believe you forgot something very mportant. All tombs down there had a sword with them. They believed that a spirit would stay beside the sword and protect it. Therefore it would be na unholy act to open it. If Ned ever set anything in Richard Tomb he knew no one would ever open it. After all the spirits were protecting them, that was they believed in their old ways.

Ned never set a "spirit-sword" to protect Lysanna`s Tomb! This was the only Tomb that did not have a spirit protecting it and therefore it would not be sacrilege to open it. Ned might have set something inside knowing that if ever needed he or somebody else could open it.

Jon Snow`s dream should have made him ask for the Maester and for Edward Star why he was having alot of dreams about the tombs. After that regarless of what they said he would continue to have this dreams. Finally should have decided to muster all courage he had  to go down there and watch in dead all the spirits protecting the tombs; against all his sanity he continues do walk seing the spirit of the Tombs holding giant swords with threatening eyes as he passed by. He continued until he reached a Tomb that had no spirit; there he at the begining was happy just because he was less afraid considering the spirits were farter away then at any point down in the tombs. He look at Lysanna`s Tomb  and suddenly felt a strong sense of Peace. He found strange that he was feeling a sense of belonging and found it strange. He looked at Lysanna`s Face and and put his right hand on her stonny cheek and then in shock realized tears coming from her eyes. He Jon awoke he went to talk to Edward Stark.

Lysanna Stark`s Tomb doesnt have a spirit sword for a reason and that reason is not she was woman.

[Runaway Penguin]

Do not forget the tombs from which Bran and co. took swords... Spirits unlocked?

[Dex drako]

so I was thinking about why Rhaegar choice Lyanna so does anyone else think the pact of ice and fire has any part in it. it would make sense with the prince that was promised part of the prophecy for both Jon and Rhaegar in away. I just think it would be interesting if the pact played a role in it.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

18 hours ago, Dex drako said:

so I was thinking about why Rhaegar choice Lyanna so does anyone else think the pact of ice and fire has any part in it. it would make sense with the prince that was promised part of the prophecy for both Jon and Rhaegar in away. I just think it would be interesting if the pact played a role in it.

We know only a little about that pact. Who was to marry whom and that it had not happened? Or just Starks coming to aid Targaryens in the first Dance of the Dragons.

We also know that Rhaegar was bookish, so it is a fair bet that he knew all we know about the pact (and maybe some more) and that it may have featured in his thoughts.

But from that point on I cannot put the puzzle pieces together. Can't tell if it played any role in him chosing Lyanna to elope with; or the other way round, Lyanna chosing Rhaegar to elope with. We know little of what actually triggered this.

I find the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree the most likely story for how Rhae and Lya came to meet and greet originally. It does not explain what happened a year later though, that's even much more speculative.

[IceFire125]

1 hour ago, Jon Weirgaryen said:

We know only a little about that pact. Who was to marry whom and that it had not happened? Or just Starks coming to aid Targaryens in the first Dance of the Dragons.

We also know that Rhaegar was bookish, so it is a fair bet that he knew all we know about the pact (and maybe some more) and that it may have featured in his thoughts.

But from that point on I cannot put the puzzle pieces together. Can't tell if it played any role in him chosing Lyanna to elope with; or the other way round, Lyanna chosing Rhaegar to elope with. We know little of what actually triggered this.

I find the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree the most likely story for how Rhae and Lya came to meet and greet originally. It does not explain what happened a year later though, that's even much more speculative.

With what we know that GRRM oft-repeating and subtle way of telling a story within a story, we can surmise that what happened with Jon was what happened with his parents, Rhaegar and Lyanna.

The meeting and realization that the tKotLT was Lyanna (maybe as she was taking off her armor, Rhaegar caught her and about to slashed her, until he realized it's a girl)

= When Jon caught Ygritte, placed the dagger next to her neck, didn't realized that she was a girl.

The gray girl on a horse running away (from threat of Aerys' men and marriage from Robert) was Lyanna

= When Jon met Alys at CB, she was running away from a threat of hounds chasing her and marriage from Cregan).

**Noticed that when Alys is with Jon, she's already flowered.  Likewise, Lyanna was already flowered when she ended up going with Rhaegar.

The mystery is, when did Rhaegar realized that Lyanna was the one, the Ice to the Fire, with regards to the pact?  A lot of fans have brought up before that Rhaegar could've selected any Northern woman to pursue the third head of the dragon.  At what point did something triggered in Rhaegar's thoughts (via dreams, visions, or remembrance of something being said in the scrolls, or from the GoHH) that led him to such conclusion, that the third head must come from Lyanna?

Or was it simply like what happened with Robb and Jeyne?  That a man must marry the woman he slept with to protect her honor.

Did Rhaegar doubt the validity of Aegon being TPWTP??... maybe, maybe not.

But it was enough for Rhaegar to make sure that Lyanna (who he knew was pregnant), is protected by 3 Kingsguard.  

 

[Alia of the knife]

Has anyone heard that the character of Rhaegar may have been cast?

Devin Oliver, an Indie Rocker.

http://dailyentertainmentnews.com/wpgo/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/devin-oliver-1.jpg

 

 

 

[Ygrain]

Well... If he's going to look anything like this or this, I might approve.

[Rippounet]

Hey guys I was musing over Jon's possible "true" Targaryan name (you all know why, but I won't discuss this since this is the book forum) and since all the experts are on this thread I thought I might share an idea. It's a silly thought, but I'm counting on your indulgence, especially if this has been discussed before (I've only read a dozen of the 162 RLJ threads or so).

Is it so crazy to think that Jon's true name might be Aegon after all?

Generally it's thought this is impossible because Rhaegar had named his first son Aegon already and died before knowing about the Sack. However, this is assuming that Rhaegar did choose the name for his child with Lyanna before its birth, and thus before knowing its sex... And sudenly I realized we don't know whether they even do that in Westeros (choosing baby names before the birth), or whether Rhaegar would have had the opportunity to discuss this with Lyanna.
If he didn't, then Lyanna would have been the one to choose his name, right? And it's very possible that Lyanna did know about the Sack... Even if she didn't before Ned arrived, Ned certainly told her...

So why would she choose Aegon? Well perhaps because Rhaegar wanted TPtwP to be named Aegon, and Lyanna figured out that the song of Ice and Fire was her son's. Lyanna, not Rhaegar.

It's often thought that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna because of the prophecy. But I was never really on board with that theory. As I wrote in version 159 or something of this thread, I strongly believe that his original motive could only be political (to save her from someone else imho), and tend to think that Rhaegar and Lyanna only fell in love after the abduction. Like others I assumed that he probably realized the significance of their child once Lyanna fell pregnant.
But... What if he didn't? Thanks to Aemon, we know for a fact that Rhaegar thought Aegon (his son with Elia) was TPtwP, even after having met Lyanna at Harrenhal. So is it crazy to think that he may very well have kept believing this until his death? In which case he might have discussed this with Lyanna and told her that he believed he was supposed to father TPtwP and that he wanted him to be named Aegon like Aegon the Conqueror.
Then of course, Lyanna, having learned of both Rhaegar and Aegon's deaths and giving birth to a son... Would have been in a perfect position to realize that her son, not Elia's, must  be TPtwP. And knowing that it was Rhaegar's wish to have TPtwP named Aegon...

Of course I'm starting from a conclusion, which is never a good idea but still, a few points stand out:
i) It's obvious that regardless of Rhaegar's possible hopes or wishes, Lyanna was the one who eventually made the call and gave Jon his true name.
ii) There is absolutely nothing in the books that allows us to be certain that Rhaegar ever changed his mind on Aegon (Elia's son) being TPtwP. In fact, the idea that he wanted a "child of ice and fire" with Lyanna remains a theory at this point.
iii) Rhaegar wanted TPtwP to be named Aegon. If Dany's vision is correct, he named his son by Elia while already believing he was TPtwP.
iv) If one believes Dany's vision, Rhaegar wanted "three heads." But since he died before the Sack, he could have expected a daughter (a second sister-wife for Aegon) from Lyanna, not a son.
v) Obviously, unlike Rhaegar, Lyanna certainly knew about the Sack.
The only missing link would be Rhaegar telling Lyanna about the prophecy, which has no textual support.

But I think this would throw many elements in a different light. We always see Rhaegar as prophecy-obsessed and completely overlook Lyanna. Yet because of the chronology the one who was most likely to see "Jon" as TPtwP would be Lyanna, not Rhaegar.
Which might mean that she told Ned on her deathbed. Which might mean that the "promise" may not have been about keeping "Jon" safe from Robert. Or at least, that this was never its main feature. What Lyanna made Ned promise was perhaps to raise the man that could eventually save Westeros from the Others.... To make sure he was ready. This would also explain why Ned passed Jon as his son and raised him in Winterfell: this way not only was he hidden in plain sight, but he also had an easy way for him to be trained at arms. After all, doesn't Cat think that it is highly unusual for Jon to be raised in Winterfell? The books tell us that bastards are aknowledged when the mother is noble... Which isn't officially the case for Jon.

This would throw many of Ned's actions (and lines) in AGoT in a totally different light. Including his habit of repeating that "Winter is coming." He may not have believed Lyanna initially, but when the story starts, he executes a deserter from the NW and immediately after finds a direwolf... Which "troubles him." And then, when Jon defends the pup, saying "I am no Stark" it makes Ned thoughtful. And of course, he is both "shocked" and "troubled" when Luwin later tells him that Jon wants to take the black. The reader is lead to believe it's because he thinks Jon is too young... But there could be another reason as well.
I know what you'll say: "but Ned is the one who tells Cat that the Others are a legend, and Cat is the one who seems ready to believe in them." Yes, but wouldn't Ned want to hide the truth from Cat of all people, not just to reassure her, but also to be absolutely certain that no one can possibly connect the dots? It's a minor oddity that Ned seems so quick to dismiss stories and prophecies (ridiculing Old Nan's "stories") even though he knows better than anyone what the Night's Watch true purpose is. Also, he no doubt heard Will's story (either directly or indirectly) before executing him. And since later Mormont asks Tyrion to talk to the King about the possibility that the Long Night is coming... Wouldn't Mormont have gone to Ned first?

I know it's a stretch, but all in all, the text can be ambiguous...

Quote

 

For a moment Eddard Stark was filled with a terrible sense of foreboding. This was his place, here in the north. He looked at the stone figures all around them, breathed deep in the chill silence of the crypt. He could feel the eyes of the dead. They were all listening, he knew. And winter was coming.
Eddard I

"Maester Luwin, I trust you as I would my own blood. Give my wife your voice in all things great and small. Teach my son the things he needs to know. Winter is coming."
Cat II

"Winter is coming," Arya whispered.

"The hard cruel times," her father said. "We tasted them on the Trident, child, and when Bran fell. You were born in the long summer, sweet one, you've never known anything else, but now the winter is truly coming. Remember the sigil of our House, Arya."
Arya II

 

"Denys Mallister writes that the mountain people are moving south, slipping past the Shadow Tower in numbers greater than ever before. They are running, my lord … but running from what?" Lord Mormont moved to the window and stared out into the night. "These are old bones, Lannister, but they have never felt a chill like this. Tell the king what I say, I pray you. Winter is coming, and when the Long Night falls, only the Night's Watch will stand between the realm and the darkness that sweeps from the north. The gods help us all if we are not ready."

Tyrion III

 

 

The text leads us to see Ned as deeply rational man, and his repeating the Stark words as mere pragmatism. A long summer is followed by a harsh winter, so it makes sense for the lord of House Stark to want to be prepared. But I don't think there is anything in the text to rule out the possibility of Lyanna having told Ned that Jon was TPtwP. Ned wouldn't have believed it, of course, but his promise to her could have come back to haunt him... After sending Jon to face his destiny.

 

[J. Stargaryen]

Link

13 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Hey guys I was musing over Jon's possible "true" Targaryan name (you all know why, but I won't discuss this since this is the book forum) and since all the experts are on this thread I thought I might share an idea. It's a silly thought, but I'm counting on your indulgence, especially if this has been discussed before (I've only read a dozen of the 162 RLJ threads or so).

Is it so crazy to think that Jon's true name might be Aegon after all?

Generally it's thought this is impossible because Rhaegar had named his first son Aegon already and died before knowing about the Sack. However, this is assuming that Rhaegar did choose the name for his child with Lyanna before its birth, and thus before knowing its sex... And sudenly I realized we don't know whether they even do that in Westeros (choosing baby names before the birth), or whether Rhaegar would have had the opportunity to discuss this with Lyanna.
If he didn't, then Lyanna would have been the one to choose his name, right? And it's very possible that Lyanna did know about the Sack... Even if she didn't before Ned arrived, Ned certainly told her...

So why would she choose Aegon? Well perhaps because Rhaegar wanted TPtwP to be named Aegon, and Lyanna figured out that the song of Ice and Fire was her son's. Lyanna, not Rhaegar.

It's often thought that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna because of the prophecy. But I was never really on board with that theory. As I wrote in version 159 or something of this thread, I strongly believe that his original motive could only be political (to save her from someone else imho), and tend to think that Rhaegar and Lyanna only fell in love after the abduction. Like others I assumed that he probably realized the significance of their child once Lyanna fell pregnant.
But... What if he didn't? Thanks to Aemon, we know for a fact that Rhaegar thought Aegon (his son with Elia) was TPtwP, even after having met Lyanna at Harrenhal. So is it crazy to think that he may very well have kept believing this until his death? In which case he might have discussed this with Lyanna and told her that he believed he was supposed to father TPtwP and that he wanted him to be named Aegon like Aegon the Conqueror.
Then of course, Lyanna, having learned of both Rhaegar and Aegon's deaths and giving birth to a son... Would have been in a perfect position to realize that her son, not Elia's, must  be TPtwP. And knowing that it was Rhaegar's wish to have TPtwP named Aegon...

Of course I'm starting from a conclusion, which is never a good idea but still, a few points stand out:
i) It's obvious that regardless of Rhaegar's possible hopes or wishes, Lyanna was the one who eventually made the call and gave Jon his true name.
ii) There is absolutely nothing in the books that allows us to be certain that Rhaegar ever changed his mind on Aegon (Elia's son) being TPtwP. In fact, the idea that he wanted a "child of ice and fire" with Lyanna remains a theory at this point.
iii) Rhaegar wanted TPtwP to be named Aegon. If Dany's vision is correct, he named his son by Elia while already believing he was TPtwP.
iv) If one believes Dany's vision, Rhaegar wanted "three heads." But since he died before the Sack, he could have expected a daughter (a second sister-wife for Aegon) from Lyanna, not a son.
v) Obviously, unlike Rhaegar, Lyanna certainly knew about the Sack.
The only missing link would be Rhaegar telling Lyanna about the prophecy, which has no textual support.

But I think this would throw many elements in a different light. We always see Rhaegar as prophecy-obsessed and completely overlook Lyanna. Yet because of the chronology the one who was most likely to see "Jon" as TPtwP would be Lyanna, not Rhaegar.

<snip>

I had the same idea, supported by the same reasoning many moons ago. I wish I had any idea when I posted it, because it's nearly identical. Whether we are correct or not, I think it's not a bad sign when two people can independently use the same reasoning to come to the same conclusion.

I believe I further speculated that Jon might end up being crowned as Aegon VII, after fAegon is crowned as Aegon VI.

ETA: Thanks to some help from @Lady Gwynhyfvar, I was able to find the original post, from way back in July of 2014. - Link