R+L=J v.162

[Rippounet]

12 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I had the same idea, supported by the same reasoning many moons ago. I wish I had any idea when I posted it, because it's nearly identical. Whether we are correct or not, I think it's not a bad sign when two people can independently use the same reasoning to come to the same conclusion.

I believe I further speculated that Jon might end up being crowned as Aegon VII, after fAegon is crowned as Aegon VI.

ETA: Thanks to some help from @Lady Gwynhyfvar, I was able to find the original post, from way back in July of 2014. - Link

Nice. A meeting of the minds then.

Though since we both see the abduction as politically motivated in the first place, it's not that surprising that we both end up using the prophecy angle in a different manner. Cheers!

[Bael's Bastard]

Random question. I imagine it has been discussed at some point, but do you see any situation in which Ned actually kills Arthur with Dawn?

[Lord Varys]

@Rippounet & @J. Stargaryen

I guess if Lyanna chose the name of her son it is actually more likely she would have chosen the name Rhaegar considering that she would have known about his death by the time of her own, and much more cared about him than about his son. If their son was the only thing that would survive of their love it would be fitting for the boy to carry Rhaegar's name rather than be another Aegon.

No idea if anybody ever suggested that Jon Snow might be another Rhaegar. But I'd actually like that outcome.

But then, I doubt that Rhaegar didn't have a name for his second son in mind. Or his second daughter.

51 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Random question. I imagine it has been discussed at some point, but do you see any situation in which Ned actually kills Arthur with Dawn?

No situation that is very realistic. Ned isn't a very good swordsman and thus very unlikely to ever lay a hand on Dawn during the fight. Especially considering that Howland Reed supposed prevented Ned's death at Arthur Dayne's hands (either by killing Ser Arthur or by doing something else to prevent Arthur from killing Ned - like, say, causing a diversion, convincing him not to kill Ned, etc. - or by tending Ned's wounds after the fight was over).

[Bael's Bastard]

It is not impossible that Dayne could drop Dawn if Howland's input in the situation involved an attack or something which disarmed him. I guess my question is if anyone sees any reason Ned, in such a situation, might then utilize it against Dayne.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It is not impossible that Dayne could drop Dawn if Howland's input in the situation involved an attack or something which disarmed him. I guess my question is if anyone sees any reason Ned, in such a situation, might then utilize it against Dayne.

If it was a fight to the death and all the other Northmen already dead I could see Ned do something like that. However, I'm not sure it was a fight to the death - especially not where Arthur and Ned were concerned. I really think there is something to their relationship we don't know yet. And there is also another layer to the whole fight at the tower we don't know yet, either.

[Alia of the knife]

On 10/29/2016 at 1:12 PM, Ygrain said:

Well... If he's going to look anything like this or this, I might approve.

[J. Stargaryen]

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess if Lyanna chose the name of her son it is actually more likely she would have chosen the name Rhaegar considering that she would have known about his death by the time of her own, and much more cared about him than about his son. If their son was the only thing that would survive of their love it would be fitting for the boy to carry Rhaegar's name rather than be another Aegon.

No idea if anybody ever suggested that Jon Snow might be another Rhaegar. But I'd actually like that outcome.

But then, I doubt that Rhaegar didn't have a name for his second son in mind. Or his second daughter.

You're entitled to your opinion, but your off-the-cuff case is so flimsy that I'm not sure what makes you think it is more likely.

7 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Nice. A meeting of the minds then.

Though since we both see the abduction as politically motivated in the first place, it's not that surprising that we both end up using the prophecy angle in a different manner. Cheers!

I think that was part of my thought process. I have my doubts that Rhaegar ever changed his mind about Aegon (VI) being TPtwP. And maybe Lyanna never doubted it either, until she heard that the babe was murdered. Whether it's true or not, it unfolds in a very linear fashion.

[Bael's Bastard]

Although I lean toward Aemon for sentimental reasons, I don't think Aegon can be dismissed. If Lyanna learned of Aegon's death, she might have reason to apply it to her son because of something she heard from Rhaegar. Though I think it is worth noting that when Aemon and Rhaegar thought Rhaegar was TPTWP, and when Aemon thought Daenerys was TPTWP, they didn't seem bothered that their candidates weren't named Aegon.

[J. Stargaryen]

5 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Although I lean toward Aemon for sentimental reasons, I don't think Aegon can be dismissed. If Lyanna learned of Aegon's death, she might have reason to apply it to her son because of something she heard from Rhaegar. Though I think it is worth noting that when Aemon and Rhaegar thought Rhaegar was TPTWP, and when Aemon thought Daenerys was TPTWP, they didn't seem bothered that their candidates weren't named Aegon.

Aemon doesn't seem bothered by it, but Rhaegar did name the person he thought was TPtwP Aegon. "What better name for a king?"

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

You're entitled to your opinion, but your off-the-cuff case is so flimsy that I'm not sure what makes you think it is more likely.

I see little reason to think that the name 'Aegon' was important enough for Lyanna to pick it. Rhaegar had reasons for that, sure, but not she. I agree with you that Aegon isn't likely to have changed his mind on who should be king after him (his eldest son, the future Aegon VI) and thus it is also very unlikely he considered Aegon as a name for his second son. Aemon is a likelier possibility for Rhaegar.

And Rhaegar would be a very likely possibility if Lyanna could make the call. Her lover/husband would be much more on her mind than prophecy, or Rhaegar's other son from another woman.

5 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Aemon doesn't seem bothered by it, but Rhaegar did name the person he thought was TPtwP Aegon. "What better name for a king?"

Yeah, because Aegon was a traditional Targaryen name and the name of five kings who basically were all named after the Conqueror. Lyanna would have little reason to name anybody after the Conqueror or Rhaegar's other son.

Not to mention that it is actually very likely Lyanna would have stuck with the name Rhaegar (and she) had chosen while she was still pregnant. That's what I would have done.

[Wrl6199]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

I see little reason to think that the name 'Aegon' was important enough for Lyanna to pick it. Rhaegar had reasons for that, sure, but not she. I agree with you that Aegon isn't likely to have changed his mind on who should be king after him (his eldest son, the future Aegon VI) and thus it is also very unlikely he considered Aegon as a name for his second son. Aemon is a likelier possibility for Rhaegar.

And Rhaegar would be a very likely possibility if Lyanna could make the call. Her lover/husband would be much more on her mind than prophecy, or Rhaegar's other son from another woman.

Yeah, because Aegon was a traditional Targaryen name and the name of five kings who basically were all named after the Conqueror. Lyanna would have little reason to name anybody after the Conqueror or Rhaegar's other son.

Not to mention that it is actually very likely Lyanna would have stuck with the name Rhaegar (and she) had chosen while she was still pregnant. That's what I would have done.

I mean he dint really have a say who would be king after him anyways. But yeah I dint see any reason why Lyanna would have chosen the name.

[J. Stargaryen]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

I see little reason to think that the name 'Aegon' was important enough for Lyanna to pick it. Rhaegar had reasons for that, sure, but not she. I agree with you that Aegon isn't likely to have changed his mind on who should be king after him (his eldest son, the future Aegon VI) and thus it is also very unlikely he considered Aegon as a name for his second son. Aemon is a likelier possibility for Rhaegar.

Then why don't you go ahead and read the posts from Rip and I, where we explained how and why it might have become important in Lyanna's eyes.

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

And Rhaegar would be a very likely possibility if Lyanna could make the call. Her lover/husband would be much more on her mind than prophecy, or Rhaegar's other son from another woman.

You'll forgive me if I don't equate this kind of declaration with an actual argument.

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, because Aegon was a traditional Targaryen name and the name of five kings who basically were all named after the Conqueror. Lyanna would have little reason to name anybody after the Conqueror or Rhaegar's other son.

Except that Rip and I both laid out reasons why Lyanna would have chosen it. By all means disagree with the conclusion if you wish, but if you're going to do so, at least have the courtesy to acknowledge the reasoning behind it.

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Not to mention that it is actually very likely Lyanna would have stuck with the name Rhaegar (and she) had chosen while she was still pregnant. That's what I would have done.

It seems to me you're taking for granted the assumption that Rhaegar and/or Lyanna had picked out baby names in advance.

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Then why don't you go ahead and read the posts from Rip and I, where we explained how and why it might have become important in Lyanna's eyes.

I read them, but there isn't much of an argument there besides Lyanna could have known prophecy-stuff and for some reason liked to act as Rhaegar's agent to fulfill it.

The idea that Lyanna may have thought her son was a king or would be a king is also not very likely. Regardless what she knew about the Trident and the Sack she would not have been as unrealistic as to assume that her son by Rhaegar had any chance of ever sitting the Iron Throne.

Why would she curse him with the name of the Conqueror in such a scenario?

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You'll forgive me if I don't equate this kind of declaration with an actual argument.

Except that Rip and I both laid out reasons why Lyanna would have chosen it. By all means disagree with the conclusion if you wish, but if you're going to do so, at least have the courtesy to acknowledge the reasoning behind it.

I just find the reasoning not very convincing. We have no reason to believe Lyanna cared about Rhaegar's prophetic beliefs nor do we have any reason to believe she liked the idea of her son being named after the founder of the dynasty who murdered her father and brother.

If Lyanna gave her son a Targaryen name then Rhaegar is a much better idea than Aegon, in my opinion. And if she gave him no Targaryen name (which is actually even more likely, considering the fact that she wasn't a Targaryen and could make the decision all by herself) then Brandon or Rickard would be even more likely.

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It seems to me you're taking for granted the assumption that Rhaegar and/or Lyanna had picked out baby names in advance.

I think it is a good enough idea to assume this if we assume Jon Snow has a Targaryen name. If not, then we don't have to assume that.

Historically we know that naming people usually was done by the fathers when they were still alive. Laenor Velaryon and Daemon Targaryen named their children, not their mothers. Aerys II and Rhaegar named their own children, Ned named his own children, etc.

Thus it is not far-fetched that Rhaegar may have told Lyanna how their child should be named, especially if they also talked about the possibility of him dying in battle.

[J. Stargaryen]

52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I read them, but there isn't much of an argument there besides Lyanna could have known prophecy-stuff and for some reason liked to act as Rhaegar's agent to fulfill it

So what you're saying is that, aside from the arguments we made, there isn't much of an argument. That's like saying, aside from the pants you're wearing, you're not wearing any pants.

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I just find the reasoning not very convincing.

We have no reason to believe Lyanna cared about Rhaegar's prophetic beliefs

nor do we have any reason to believe she liked the idea of her son being named after the founder of the dynasty who murdered her father and brother.

Fair enough.

It's true that we don't seem to have evidence that Lyanna cared about, and/or agreed, with Rhaegar's prophetic beliefs. However, given the time they spent together it seems very likely, at least imo, that she would have learned about them. Especially if she was pregnant with Rhaegar's third head/child. That's a fair assumption, right? If we can agree upon those things, then all it would take is something to convince Lyanna that the prophecy stuff was true, or might be true. Or, there is another option, which I will address below.*

ETA: As below, you seem to be making contradicting arguments about how babies are named. You say that the fathers traditionally do the naming, but then claim here it's Lyanna's choice. Not to mention it's a bit of a stretch to make such an argument. It's not Aegon I's fault that Aerys II was bonkers.

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If Lyanna gave her son a Targaryen name then Rhaegar is a much better idea than Aegon, in my opinion. And if she gave him no Targaryen name (which is actually even more likely, considering the fact that she wasn't a Targaryen and could make the decision all by herself) then Brandon or Rickard would be even more likely.

I think it is a good enough idea to assume this if we assume Jon Snow has a Targaryen name. If not, then we don't have to assume that.

Honestly, I don't understand how you can argue here that Lyanna would've picked a Northern name, but then just below it argue that the father traditionally picked the names.

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Historically we know that naming people usually was done by the fathers when they were still alive. Laenor Velaryon and Daemon Targaryen named their children, not their mothers. Aerys II and Rhaegar named their own children, Ned named his own children, etc.

Continuing from above.*

by your own logic, it makes perfect sense that Lyanna would have named her baby Aegon. Because Rhaegar, the father, had chosen the name Aegon for his son and heir, who was to be the PtwP. So, in a roundabout way, Rhaegar would have chosen the name for Lyanna's baby, who was Rhaegar's son and heir.

One idea I had back when I came up with this idea, was that Rhaegar believed that his son and heir, named Aegon, was to be the PtwP. And those things were true. They just weren't true about his son with Elia. And maybe Lyanna realized that when she had a son. It's just speculation, but it seems to me the kind of thing GRRM might do. The way in which he might toy with prophecy.

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Thus it is not far-fetched that Rhaegar may have told Lyanna how their child should be named, especially if they also talked about the possibility of him dying in battle.

Sure. Nor is it farfetched that he may have told Lyanna how his son and heir, named Aegon, was to be the PtwP.

[J. Stargaryen]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

I don't think J.Stargaryen's theory is well-known...

It's not. That discussion came and went pretty quickly. I'm pretty sure I'm not the first person to suggest the possibility that Jon's real name is Aegon. But I had never seen it laid out as I presented it, though it wouldn't surprise me if someone had. But if it turns out his name is Aegon, then I think it's got to be along the lines of what you and I have theorized. I'm not sure what the alternative explanation would be. That Rhaegar intended to populate Westeros with sons named Aegon?

[Stubby]

[MOD]

A gentle reminder folks - show and supposed leaked info from it are irrelevant to this discussion and must not be posted here.

[/MOD] 

[Shmedricko]

I think Jon’s true name is almost certainly Aemon Targaryen.

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"Father, I only just now remembered, I can't go away, I'm to marry Prince Joffrey." She tried to smile bravely for him. "I love him, Father, I truly truly do, I love him as much as Queen Naerys loved Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, as much as Jonquil loved Ser Florian. I want to be his queen and have his babies."

"Sweet one," her father said gently, "listen to me. When you're old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who's worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me." (Sansa III, AGOT)

But perhaps another boy is?

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The old man touched the maester's chain that hung loosely around his thin, fleshless neck. "My father was Maekar, the First of his Name, and my brother Aegon reigned after him in my stead. My grandfather named me for Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, who was his uncle, or his father, depending on which tale you believe. Aemon, he called me …"

"Aemon … Targaryen?" Jon could scarcely believe it. (Jon VIII, AGOT)

This may not be the last time Jon can scarcely believe that someone’s real name is Aemon Targaryen.

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But he had not left the Wall for that; he had left because he was after all his father's son, and Robb's brother. The gift of a sword, even a sword as fine as Longclaw, did not make him a Mormont. Nor was he Aemon Targaryen. Three times the old man had chosen, and three times he had chosen honor, but that was him. Even now, Jon could not decide whether the maester had stayed because he was weak and craven, or because he was strong and true. Yet he understood what the old man had meant, about the pain of choosing; he understood that all too well.

Tyrion Lannister had claimed that most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man's hand be raised against him. But it made no matter, so long as he lived long enough to take his place by his brother's side and help avenge his father. (Jon IX, AGOT)

Jon thinks that he’s not Aemon Targaryen because he’s choosing to leave the Wall rather than stay, as Maester Aemon did. However, Jon does ultimately decide to stay, so by this logic he is Aemon Targaryen. The very next paragraph even makes mention of “his true name.” Jon also chooses the Night’s Watch over Ygritte and Stannis’ offer, so that’s three times he has chosen honor, just like Aemon.

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"His father's father was Daeron Targaryen, the Second of His Name, who brought Dorne into the realm. Part of the pact was that he wed a Dornish princess. She gave him four sons. Aemon's father Maekar was the youngest of those, and Aemon was his third son. Mind you, all this happened long before I was born, ancient as Smallwood would make me."

"Maester Aemon was named for the Dragonknight."

"So he was. Some say Prince Aemon was King Daeron's true father, not Aegon the Unworthy." (Jon I, ACOK)

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Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I'm the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne." (Jon XII, ASOS)

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"Maester Aemon is old and blind. His strength is leaving him. Who will take his place when he dies? Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower is more fighter than scholar, and Maester Harmune of Eastwatch is drunk more than he's sober."

"If you ask the Citadel for more maesters . . ."

"I mean to. We'll have need of every one. Aemon Targaryen is not so easily replaced, however." Jon seemed puzzled. (Samwell I, AFFC)

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"The night before he died, he asked if he might hold the babe," Gilly went on. "I was afraid he might drop him, but he never did. He rocked him and hummed a song for him, and Dalla's boy reached up and touched his face. The way he pulled his lip I thought he might be hurting him, but it only made the old man laugh." She stroked Sam's hand. "We could name the little one Maester, if you like. When he's old enough, not now. We could."

"Maester is not a name. You could call him Aemon, though."

Gilly thought about that. "Dalla brought him forth during battle, as the swords sang all around her. That should be his name. Aemon Battleborn. Aemon Steelsong."

A name even my lord father might like. A warrior's name. The boy was Mance Rayder's son and Craster's grandson, after all. He had none of Sam's craven blood. "Yes. Call him that." (Samwell IV, AFFC)

The whole plotline with Mance’s son is basically a big parallel to what happened to Jon under RLJ (killed mother in childbirth, sent away to be passed off as a bastard due to his king’s blood, etc.), and being named Aemon could be another similarity.

Other observations:

- Maester Aemon’s parents were Maekar and Dyanna, which sounds similar to Rhaegar and Lyanna.

- Maester Aemon was named after Aemon the Dragonknight, his great-great uncle. Jon, if named after Maester Aemon, would be named after his great-great-great uncle.

- The two mentions of Aemon being named after the Dragonknight are immediately followed up by a reference to a dubious parentage:

"My grandfather named me for Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, who was his uncle, or his father, depending on which tale you believe."

(Think Eddard)

"Maester Aemon was named for the Dragonknight."

"So he was. Some say Prince Aemon was King Daeron's true father, not Aegon the Unworthy."

- Every Aemon in the Targaryen family tree had a brother Aegon (Aemon - Aegon, sons of Jaehaerys I, Aemon the Dragonknight - Aegon the Unworthy, Maester Aemon - Aegon V). Even Aemon Blackfyre had a twin brother Aegon. Jon would be no exception, having a half-brother Aegon.

- Although there have been multiple Targaryens named Aemon as mentioned above, none have ever been king. So if Jon were crowned as Aemon, it would be as the First of His Name.

This would be especially resonant because Maester Aemon had the chance to be king but he refused the crown because the gods meant for him to serve, not to rule, whereas he told Jon that he needed to let the man be born because it takes a man to rule.

- Jon learning that he was named Aemon by his parents would mean much more to him than Aegon given the relationship he had with Maester Aemon.

I haven’t thought as much about who would have come up the name, when, and why, but in my opinion the case for Aemon is so strong that I would start there and work backwards. As a final note, Aemon also said this to Jon:

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"The men who formed the Night's Watch knew that only their courage shielded the realm from the darkness to the north. They knew they must have no divided loyalties to weaken their resolve. So they vowed they would have no wives nor children.

"Yet brothers they had, and sisters. Mothers who gave them birth, fathers who gave them names. They came from a hundred quarrelsome kingdoms, and they knew times may change, but men do not. So they pledged as well that the Night's Watch would take no part in the battles of the realms it guarded." (Jon VIII, AGOT)

(And it was Aemon’s grandfather who named him after the Dragonknight.)

[J. Stargaryen]

For the record, Aemon is still the most likely candidate in my mind. For many of the reasons you laid out, @Shmedricko. It's just that it occurred to me back in 2014 that maybe we shouldn't be so quick to rule out Aegon, which normally seems so counter intuitive.

Also, regarding the Jon-as-Aemon case, there are also some linguistic parallels between Ned's final chapter (Ned as a thrice-damned blind fool vs. three times the gods saw fit to test blind Aemon's vows) and the chapter where Maester Aemon reveals to Jon his true identity. Oh, and btw, there's a curious line in that Jon chapter as well, leading up to the revelation of Maester's Aemon's name.

Maester Aemon sighed. “Have you heard nothing I’ve told you, Jon? Do you think you are the first?” He shook his ancient head, a gesture weary beyond words. “Three times the gods saw fit to test my vows. Once when I was a boy, once in the fullness of my manhood, and once when I had grown old. By then my strength was fled, my eyes grown dim, yet that last choice was as cruel as the first. My ravens would bring the news from the south, words darker than their wings, the ruin of my House, the death of my kin, disgrace and desolation. What could I have done, old, blind, frail? I was helpless as a suckling babe, yet still it grieved me to sit forgotten as they cut down my brother’s poor grandson, and his son, and even the little children…”

Aemon Targaryen was helpless as a suckling babe to prevent the ruin of his house.

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

In addition to the above reasons, I like Aemon over other names because I think it would be a name Lyanna would choose.  Aemon the Dragonknight seems to be someone Lyanna (like Jon) would see as a hero --to the point of emulation as her as stint as the Knight of the Laughing Tree indicates.  That the Dragonknight greatly respected Cregan Stark could only be a plus.      

[Ygrain]

Apologies for not reading the full theories - did anyone mention that Aegon VII would be a holy number, connected to waiting for the seventh ruby?