R+L=J v.162

[purple-eyes]

just A technical question since we talked about Rhaegar deflowering lyanna, we know from Margarey's story that noble girls would likely lose their maidenhead due to horse riding. Then in this senario, how do their husbands know if their wives are maidens? 

 

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Because it isn't true? Cersie literally lost her maidenhead as a child. She believes her own lies.

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Rhaenys and Visenya were Valyrians (with a Valyrian culture), were not betrothed to anyone else, and needed to keep their bloodline pure.

The point is how the Westerosi perceived that arrangement because people tend to view such things through the prism of their own social norms.

4 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Also, could you provide me a quote saying that Aegon married Visenya first? I thought he married both at the same time...

I seem to recall something about Visenya so miffed that she didn't attend the ceremony but as I don't have TWOIAF, I may be wrong.

4 hours ago, Rippounet said:

I find that hard to believe, there have been tons of people talking about that on this forum.

I find myself under no obligation to read every single thread, sorry. Perhaps you could enlighten me. But if those theories claim that Dany must marry twice to have the other two dragon heads, it kinda supports that Rhaegar might have thought the same.

4 hours ago, Rippounet said:

And where is the textual support to say Rhaegar married Lyanna? The whole "KG guard the legitimate heir" refrain? That has so many holes I can't be bothered to list them all... Again.

Of course not. We are repeatedly told that if one wants to bed a woman, he should marry her (ironically, one of such occasions is Craster telling Jon), and that it is a great dishonour to impregnate a woman with a bastard,

Spoiler

even the TWOW Sansa chapter repeats this.

Yet, the honourable Rhaegar did that to the woman he loved? He, who had a family precedent of polygamy and shared certain characteristics with the very ancestor who decided for this unusual move, and this very move stood behind the whole "dragon has three heads" thing that Rhaegar was trying to emulate?

Look, I'm not saying this equals to an irrefutable proof, but such things are not accidental in writing and hence I perceive Rhaegar going for an unusual solution as very likely.

4 hours ago, Rippounet said:

But the point is, we have the books and an SSM shoying how unlikely polygamy was.

And what is the author's point of introducing a concept, only to refute it later? And should the author state that polygamy was perfectly alright when it plays a role in the central mystery? Note also that you yourself state "unlikely", not "totally impossible". GRRM could have said plain and straight, "polygamy is a no go these days", couldn't he? Why leave a door open for an unlikely option, unless he is going to use it?

BTW, if we didn't have the AGOT prologue, how likely would the return of the Others be, if all we had to go by would be Old Nan's tales?

 

[Lord Varys]

20 hours ago, lojzelote said:

He may have, he may have not. We don't even know if or why he modeled his family after V/A/R. It's even possible that VAR modeled themselves after the same prophecy of three great dragon heads or whatever, but either way it doesn't necessarily mean that Rhaegar's take was that his children have to be exactly like VAR.

Rhaegar didn't model his family after VAR. Had he done that he would have named his eldest child Visenya, not Rhaenys.

I actually believe Rhaegar might have thought Viserys was the third head of the dragon, not his daughter Rhaenys, because it seems somewhat that if nobody ever thought the promised prince could be female people should have thought the two other dragon heads should or could be female.

Perhaps Aegon and his sister-wives thought as much - there are some subtle clues that they might have thought Aegon might have been the promised prince (Dragonstone, the place of Aegon's birth, is pretty described as the place of smoke and salt in TWoIaF, and in addition George himself gives us in Gyldayn's account of the Conquest the origin of the Targaryen banner which was made by the Targaryens themselves - and could very well include a veiled reference to the prophecy considering that it depicts one dragon with three heads rather than three dragons) - but there is no hint that Rhaegar and the Targaryens of his time knew about that.

20 hours ago, lojzelote said:

The Unworthy's Great Bastards had been princes and princesses in all but name. Had Daeron died childress during their father's reign and had Daemon been still legitimized, there's almost no way that the throne wouldn't have automatically passed to him upon the Unworthy's death.

That is irrelevant. As far as we know Daemon and his half-siblings never were styled 'prince(ss)' and thus they never were princes. That they had a claim to the Iron Throne doesn't change that. Steffon and Robert Baratheon were never princes, either, yet they still had pretty good claims to the Iron Throne, coming immediately after Aerys II's own line.

If Rhaegar were focused on the 'born prince' aspect of the prophecy it would make little sense for him to work with a legitimized bastard.

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People tend to see it differently when it's them who falls in love. Regardless, Rhaegar might have been her first (serious) love, and she might not have had much of a comparison before that.

To me she seems rather like a free spirit who didn't care much for societal norms. I mean, she is supposed to be a sort of precursor to Arya. I don't think Arya would lose much sleep over being regarded negatively by stupid according according to their stupid rules, even if she got to be brought up as a noblewoman.

Considering that Lyanna agreed to marry Robert Baratheon I'm inclined to believe she knew what her duty as the daughter of noble house was. Arya doesn't seem to be willing to grasp that, but Arya is much younger in the series than Lyanna was when she met Rhaegar.

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I don't believe Ned would have risked Robert's wrath either way.

But even if had been sure that Robert wouldn't take it on on the kid, it still would had been a kindness not share the news with the world. As Rhaegar and Lyanna's (rape)child, Jon would have lived with terrible stigma.

Robert's wrath over what, exactly? The man knew that Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar and believed the man raped her countless times. Surely the idea of a bastard being born from that union wouldn't have been impossible or unimaginable for Robert.

This is the main reason why I believe it will turn out that Rhaegar and Lyanna married openly after her abduction (say, at Maidenpool, or some other place where Rhaegar had friends). Robert would then have believed that Rhaegar forced Lyanna to marry him which would explain why he calls them having sex 'rape'. It only makes sense that Ned would feel the need to hide Lyanna's child if he thought Robert would believe such a child might have a rather strong claim to the Iron Throne. Rhaegar's children by Elia were nothing to Robert, but Rhaegar's child by Lyanna would have been Lyanna's child and Ned's nephew, too. It is not likely that he would have wanted such a child dead, or condoned the murder of such a child in his name.

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Summerhal wasn't significant only ex post. We know that Ghost made a prediction about the birth of a dragon there. Of course, after the Tragedy Targaryens might have believed it was a load of bull, but Rhaegar might have realized that in prophetic dreams dragons stand for human Targaryens. In which case it would mean that the dragon was... himself. And if his birth was significant enough that a witch would have had prophetic dreams about him... could he not be the dragon?

You don't have to go through great mental gymnastics to get to the point

You are wrong there. The Ghost just made a prophecy that the promised prince would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. There was no prophecy about a dragon being born at Summerhall. Aegon V invited the people closest to him to celebrate the birth of his first great-grandson at Summerhall, but that had nothing to do with prophecy - more with the fact that Rhaella's pregnancy was nearly over.

10 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Of course. But even if Lyanna didn't take Rhaegar's beliefs seriously she definitely would have listened. This is a girl who cried over a mere song by Rhaegar when she met him. She's not just the headstrong character some describe.

Oh, come on, that's not an argument. I have wept after listening to a beautiful melancholic song, too. But that doesn't mean I'm going to buy crap about prophecy, destiny, and astrology coming from that singer, even (s)he has unnatural purple eyes and artificial platinum blond hair.

I'm not Lyanna, of course, but making the point that she was moved to tears by a song sung by him and concluding from that she must have also listened to (or liked) his talk about prophecy doesn't make any sense.

10 hours ago, Rippounet said:

I think I always read this as meaning that Ned remained by the bed long after Lyanna had expired, grieving. The idea that Ned arrived just in time for her final moments stretches my suspension of disbelief.

On what grounds, exactly? That's as possible as the idea that they hung out there for hours and hours. After all, we have no idea what exactly killed Lyanna nor when exactly her dying process began.

10 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Not everything is clearly written in the books. There are many ways to have the readers guess.

Well, you are putting forth a theory. If that's theory is true you should give us a way how George could confirm it for us. Important plot points like this are likely going to be confirmed beyond the shadow of a doubt.

10 hours ago, Rippounet said:

I completely agree.

Rhaenys and Visenya were Valyrians (with a Valyrian culture), were not betrothed to anyone else, and needed to keep their bloodline pure.
Also, could you provide me a quote saying that Aegon married Visenya first? I thought he married both at the same time...

That's what's implied by the fact that Aegon married both his sisters rather than only Visenya. However, we don't know when that happened only that it happened some time before the Conquest. Aegon was already married 

10 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Mind you, a bit of research has shown me that repudiating a barren wife seems impossible in Westeros, so there's that...

Kings can set aside wives for that, presumably, as Aerys I's council urges him to set aside his cousin-wife in favor of a woman the king would like to sleep with. Yet Aerys I flat out dismissed such a suggestion.

Prince Maegor's rationale for his second marriage (according to the more detailed 'The Sons of the Dragon') was that his first wife, Ceryse Hightower, was barren, and he now took a new wife in Alys Harroway to finally have children of his own. From his point of view that was not exactly bigamy but rather divorce and remarriage. Ceryse never shared board and bed with Maegor again, returning permanently to Oldtown shortly after Maegor went into exile. Due to the fact that Ceryse was a Hightower and the niece of the High Septon it was impossible to consider an annulment through the Faith yet from the point of view of Maegor and Visenya Maegor most certainly was no longer married to this woman.

The case of Rhaegar is entirely different. Elia may have been barren after the birth of Aegon but she gave Rhaegar two healthy children. There was no dynastic need for him to take another wife to have even more children (there wasn't any such reason for Maegor, either, considering that Aenys I had five healthy children yet he desperately wanted heirs of his own).

[lojzelote]

19 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Bran is not supposed to be a PTWP, though.

And? He's the new Last Greenseer. He's much more related to the old gods stuff than a guy from a Valyrian prophecy.

For that matter, how do we know that Rhaegar did not believe that it was Aegon? There is no true proof of that. All that he says to Elia is: "There must be one more."

I meant the ban on incest.

I don't get your line of thought here. What about the old gods and ban on incest?

That certainlyy does, but I am talking not about the narrative but of an inside-the-world character's perception.

Yeah, but to drive this point home, it is better for GRRM to let Jon be a bastard, not a secret prince in hiding.

Did you even read what I wrote? The Wildlings get a lot of bashing, practically anything they do. And then comes this guy who has basically painted a target on his back, with his shamefully high number of wives, and no-one says a word even though the situation is asking for a negative comment

This guys is RAPING HIS OWN DAUGHTERS. It pales in comparison.

Unlike Rhaegar, he was in no position to try, though.

How was he not? The war was won. He could have afforded a controversy. Rhaegar not so much.

Because they have for three hundred years?

That means that if the Targaryens want to revive a BS old custom which has the potential to make everything even more complicated and which goes against religious sensibilities of the people of the Seven Kingdoms they will put up a loud protest.

I'm talking about Daemon proposin for Rhaenyra after they were caught in flagranti.

See above - the Rhaenyra scenario, not Laena.

I'm not sure what are we even arguing about then? Daemon obviously believed he can't marry Rhaenyra while he's married to Rhea, nor was he able to set aside his wife without his kingly brother's permission. That is exactly what I have been arguing for from the start?

Assuming and impending apocalypse, succession squabble or public outcry might seem a minor trouble, though.

Yeah, except if his children or grandchildren kill each other before the apolycapse even arrives, the Realm is still fucked. In fact, it is fucked even more, because it is weakened by a civil war.

The next time Rhaegar tries to save the world, he should at least attempt to ensure that ten thousands of his subjects don't needlessly die in the process.

You're forgetting Lyanna - dubious as the second marriage might be, Jon's legitimization doesn't change a thing about her being a concubine.

If she chose to go with Rhaegar and shame his lawful wife with her presence, then it was her problem. The fact is she should have made peace with idea she'll get called names. Anne Boleyn was considered a concubine by many her entire time as Queen of England marriage or no marriage. In fact she was worse than a concubine, she was a concubine who had the gall to pretend she's the king's wife.

Because she would still be paired with a low commoner, and since Duncan would almost certainly prefer Jenny the way Aegon preferred Rhaenys (or more), it would still be one hell of a trouble.

As long as his Queen pops out a son or two and is shown all the respect she's entitled to as Queen...

See above - politics, or preventing apocalypse? 

Well, seeing as Westeros know finds itself fucked due to wrong politics, I would say politics. If the Realm is considerably weakened due your wrong political decisions, you're not doing the saving of the world right. I mean, we don't honestly believe that the fate of the entire world is dependant upon the existence of three people, right? I'm sure the Westerosi would find another way to save themselves in the end, even without Dany's dragons etc... but the country would kinda have to be in a better state than it is. Not totally exhausted due to bad decision-making of its rulers.

That would be another trope breaking, I guess. The hidden prince always proves his claim, Jon may not.

I think he would keep it secret intentionally, but that's beside the point.

 

[lojzelote]

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, that wasn't the point there. I was more trying to point out that while Rhaegar looked much better than Aerys in the public we have no good reason to believe he would have been a good ruler had he have taken the crown.

I agree that Rhaegar should have known that his actions would have dire consequences.

Which is the reason why I think he didn't do it.

It isn't just the Starks. It is Lord Robert Baratheon, too. Lord Rickard had his southron ambitions so he might have found the idea of his daughter being the mistress of the Prince of Dragonstone to be not such a bad idea (but I actually doubt that considering Brandon and Ned's behavior at Harrenhal) but Rhaegar still dishonored his daughter by abducting her and made it impossible for them to keep the marriage contract with Robert. Rickard would have looked very bad had he actually accepted this whole thing. He would have been the laughingstock of the Realm and Robert may have demanded satisfaction for the humiliation (challenging him to a duel or something of that sort).

Well, as long as it would have been obvious that Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly, he had the case to be angry with the Starks for raising the girl they promised him the wrong way. Sure, he would still loathe Rhaegar as well, but would a marriage change anything about any of it? Lyanna would still have made a fool of him.

I think there is a reason why we never read anything about a Stark daughter being somebody's mistress, nor is there any hint that the Bracken and Blackwood mistresses of Aegon IV were betrothed to some important lord when Aegon took them. And Lord Lothston who allowed Aegon to fuck his wife (and later his legal daughter) is still known as 'the Pander'. Lord Rickard most definitely is not likely to have done something that would earn such a moniker.

We've read precious little about mistresses. It seems that in Westeros morals are considerably less loose than in our history, or at least kings don't take virtue of noblewomen all that often. Still, it happens sometimes.

I don't think that the Starks would have been thrilled, but they wouldn't rebel (or at least Rickard or Ned wouldn't) and they would come around eventually.

More later.

 

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

Which is the reason why I think he didn't do it.

Well, he was a moron in any case. Regardless whether he married Lyanna or not abducting her definitely causes a war, and there is no hint he did anything to try to stop it.

Since we know what Lord Lyonel did when his daughter was humiliated the way she was it is pretty obvious that Robert would have rebelled in any case as soon as he had the chance. The man loved Lyanna. Lord Lyonel only loved his daughter (and was a good friend of Aegon V). If the honor of the house is at stake friendship doesn't matter.

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Well, as long as it would have been obvious that Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly, he had the case to be angry with the Starks for raising the girl they promised him the wrong way. Sure, he would still loathe Rhaegar as well, but would a marriage change anything about any of it? Lyanna would still have made a fool of him.

The thing is that Lyanna's feelings don't matter. She has been promised to Robert which means she is hers. She can tell all day that she loves Rhaegar and wants to be his mistress - that's not going to change that she has to marry Robert.

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We've read precious little about mistresses. It seems that in Westeros morals are considerably less loose than in our history, or at least kings don't take virtue of noblewomen all that often. Still, it happens sometimes.

There are actually quite some mistresses in the story - Aerys II had plenty, Aegon IV, too (both before and while he was king), Prince Daemon and Prince Aemond had mistresses as well, as did Aegon the Elder before he was king (and presumably thereafter as well, although that king of thing would have ended at Rook's Rest).

Yet it is also clear that none of those mistresses were from high nobility. There are no Lannister, Arryn, Stark, or Tyrell mistresses to kings known. That is an important fact.

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I don't think that the Starks would have been thrilled, but they wouldn't rebel (or at least Rickard or Ned wouldn't) and they would come around eventually

That is not very likely. Harrenhal makes it clear that, Targaryen prince or not, you better keep your hands off a Stark girl unless you are her betrothed.

[lojzelote]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaegar didn't model his family after VAR. Had he done that he would have named his eldest child Visenya, not Rhaenys.

Would he? I doubt that Rhaenys' descendants were enamored of Visenya's memory.

I actually believe Rhaegar might have thought Viserys was the third head of the dragon, not his daughter Rhaenys, because it seems somewhat that if nobody ever thought the promised prince could be female people should have thought the two other dragon heads should or could be female.

Well, if it's the case, then it's a pity he didn't live to see Dany in action.

Perhaps Aegon and his sister-wives thought as much - there are some subtle clues that they might have thought Aegon might have been the promised prince (Dragonstone, the place of Aegon's birth, is pretty described as the place of smoke and salt in TWoIaF, and in addition George himself gives us in Gyldayn's account of the Conquest the origin of the Targaryen banner which was made by the Targaryens themselves - and could very well include a veiled reference to the prophecy considering that it depicts one dragon with three heads rather than three dragons) - but there is no hint that Rhaegar and the Targaryens of his time knew about that.

That is irrelevant. As far as we know Daemon and his half-siblings never were styled 'prince(ss)' and thus they never were princes. That they had a claim to the Iron Throne doesn't change that. Steffon and Robert Baratheon were never princes, either, yet they still had pretty good claims to the Iron Throne, coming immediately after Aerys II's own line.

If Rhaegar were focused on the 'born prince' aspect of the prophecy it would make little sense for him to work with a legitimized bastard.

That's only a technicality. Anyway, wasn't the original word in High Valyrian "dragon"?

Daemon Blackfyre has been referred to a a black dragon many times over.

But if you want to give it more substance, then it should be also about other qualities. In AGoT Dany says that Viserys isn't a dragon, but only a shadow of a snake. Was she doubting his kingship or Targaryen heritage? No, but she found him unworthy of the title based on his terrible personality and lack of abilities.

The same goes for Rhaegar aka the Last Dragon; he wasn't the last Targaryen in Westeros nor was he born the last, but he was the last one in whom people of Westeros saw any promise.

 

Considering that Lyanna agreed to marry Robert Baratheon I'm inclined to believe she knew what her duty as the daughter of noble house was. Arya doesn't seem to be willing to grasp that, but Arya is much younger in the series than Lyanna was when she met Rhaegar.

Maybe. But I'd find it a mind-staggering hypocrisy on her part. (But then, I think she was hypocritical anyway, soo...)

Robert's wrath over what, exactly? The man knew that Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar and believed the man raped her countless times. Surely the idea of a bastard being born from that union wouldn't have been impossible or unimaginable for Robert.

Either over being dragonspawn that killed Lyanna or over being the proof of Lyanna making him a cuckold. Depends on what he knows in such a scenario.

This is the main reason why I believe it will turn out that Rhaegar and Lyanna married openly after her abduction (say, at Maidenpool, or some other place where Rhaegar had friends). Robert would then have believed that Rhaegar forced Lyanna to marry him which would explain why he calls them having sex 'rape'. It only makes sense that Ned would feel the need to hide Lyanna's child if he thought Robert would believe such a child might have a rather strong claim to the Iron Throne. Rhaegar's children by Elia were nothing to Robert, but Rhaegar's child by Lyanna would have been Lyanna's child and Ned's nephew, too. It is not likely that he would have wanted such a child dead, or condoned the murder of such a child in his name.

Let's agree to disagree. I just see it differently.

I believe there is a small chance Robert might have spared Jon's life, but I wouldn't have taken the risk were I Ned.

Anyway, Jon's the one most better off that his heritage is a secret, so I like to think that Ned had done it for him as well (though he should have also come up with some convincing lie about a purty farmgirl, so his ignorance wouldn't gnaw at him.).

You are wrong there. The Ghost just made a prophecy that the promised prince would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. There was no prophecy about a dragon being born at Summerhall. Aegon V invited the people closest to him to celebrate the birth of his first great-grandson at Summerhall, but that had nothing to do with prophecy - more with the fact that Rhaella's pregnancy was nearly over.

That's strange. I seem to remember reading about it. Well, searching the net, it appears to be a common theory.

If you're interested there's a video on the subject (I stopped it near the relevant passage). These are my thoughts exactly as to what had happened. Ghost had informed Aegon she had dreamt of a dragon born at Summerhall, and Aegon had taken it  as a sign that an attempt to hatch dragons at that place would be a success. But they had made the same mistake as Daemon II Blackfyre; it hadn't been a literal dragon, it had been a Targaryen, who would later fittingly receive the moniker the Last Dragon.

 

[lojzelote]

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, he was a moron in any case. Regardless whether he married Lyanna or not abducting her definitely causes a war, and there is no hint he did anything to try to stop it.

Since we know what Lord Lyonel did when his daughter was humiliated the way she was it is pretty obvious that Robert would have rebelled in any case as soon as he had the chance. The man loved Lyanna. Lord Lyonel only loved his daughter (and was a good friend of Aegon V). If the honor of the house is at stake friendship doesn't matter.

The thing is that Lyanna's feelings don't matter. She has been promised to Robert which means she is hers. She can tell all day that she loves Rhaegar and wants to be his mistress - that's not going to change that she has to marry Robert.

There are actually quite some mistresses in the story - Aerys II had plenty, Aegon IV, too (both before and while he was king), Prince Daemon and Prince Aemond had mistresses as well, as did Aegon the Elder before he was king (and presumably thereafter as well, although that king of thing would have ended at Rook's Rest).

Yet it is also clear that none of those mistresses were from high nobility. There are no Lannister, Arryn, Stark, or Tyrell mistresses to kings known. That is an important fact.

That is not very likely. Harrenhal makes it clear that, Targaryen prince or not, you better keep your hands off a Stark girl unless you are her betrothed.

Let's just say that I don't believe that Lyanna Stark's virtue was important enough to anybody in Westeros (except Brandon and perhaps Robert - he didn't actually do anything when it became known Rhaegar absconded with Lyanna, did he?) to start a war.

But what I am ultimately arguing for is that having her as mistress might cause turmoil, but a lesser turmoil than taking a second wife would have.

[AdesteFideles]

5 hours ago, lojzelote said:

But what I am ultimately arguing for is that having her as mistress might cause turmoil, but a lesser turmoil than taking a second wife would have.

If Raegar was triumphant at the Trident, and Robert was the one to have died, he would have returned to King's Landing the princely hero. He would have carried the day, vanquished the upstart traitors and saved the kingdom. If, after all that, he had then announced that he had also gotten himself another son on his brand new 2nd wife, I'm thinking that he might have pulled it off.

I'm sure there would have been fall-out over it, but considering how popular he was already, I think he was willing to risk it if the stakes were as high as he believed.

 

[Ygrain]

8 hours ago, lojzelote said:

Bran is not supposed to be a PTWP, though.

And? He's the new Last Greenseer. He's much more related to the old gods stuff than a guy from a Valyrian prophecy.

For that matter, how do we know that Rhaegar did not believe that it was Aegon? There is no true proof of that. All that he says to Elia is: "There must be one more."

That Valyrian prophecy was further confirmed by GoHH. Not purely Valyrian business here, apparently.

8 hours ago, lojzelote said:

I meant the ban on incest.

I don't get your line of thought here. What about the old gods and ban on incest?

You claimed that old gods didn't care about human affairs. Apparently, they do, to some extent, or else the perception of incest as a sin wouldn't exist among the old gods' followers.

8 hours ago, lojzelote said:

That certainlyy does, but I am talking not about the narrative but of an inside-the-world character's perception.

Yeah, but to drive this point home, it is better for GRRM to let Jon be a bastard, not a secret prince in hiding.

Now you're talking about your personal preferences, which GRRM is not bound to follow, and it shifts the debate from what Rhaegar would have done to what you would have done as an author.

8 hours ago, lojzelote said:

Did you even read what I wrote? The Wildlings get a lot of bashing, practically anything they do. And then comes this guy who has basically painted a target on his back, with his shamefully high number of wives, and no-one says a word even though the situation is asking for a negative comment

This guys is RAPING HIS OWN DAUGHTERS. It pales in comparison.

In case you missed this in the previous posts, this is not about Craster but Ygon Oldfather. You seem to be arguing something that you don't know much about.

This is beyond ridiculous.

They have been offending people's religious sensibilities for three hundred years already. I really don't follow the logic

8 hours ago, lojzelote said:

 Daemon obviously believed he can't marry Rhaenyra while he's married to Rhea

Then why does he ask for Rhaenyra's hand?

8 hours ago, lojzelote said:

 nor was he able to set aside his wife without his kingly brother's permission. 

And how is this an argument against polygamy?

8 hours ago, lojzelote said:

See above - politics, or preventing apocalypse? 

Well, seeing as Westeros know finds itself fucked due to wrong politics, I would say politics. If the Realm is considerably weakened due your wrong political decisions, you're not doing the saving of the world right. I mean, we don't honestly believe that the fate of the entire world is dependant upon the existence of three people, right? I'm sure the Westerosi would find another way to save themselves in the end, even without Dany's dragons etc... but the country would kinda have to be in a better state than it is. Not totally exhausted due to bad decision-making of its rulers.

And who cares what you or I believe? You seem unable to get into the head of a person living at those hypothetical circumstances and do what he perceives to be his duty

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, AdesteFideles said:

If Raegar was triumphant at the Trident, and Robert was the one to have died, he would have returned to King's Landing the princely hero. He would have carried the day, vanquished the upstart traitors and saved the kingdom. If, after all that, he had then announced that he had also gotten himself another son on his brand new 2nd wife, I'm thinking that he might have pulled it off.

I'm sure there would have been fall-out over it, but considering how popular he was already, I think he was willing to risk it if the stakes were as high as he believed.

 

I did not get your point. Rhaegar may be popular at one point, but after he ran off with Robert's bride and disappeared for one year and left the whole country in bloody war, will he still popular? 

Even as you said, he killed an innocent Robert and declared Lyanna as his glorious second queen, you think people will happily hold him as new king? I think a second war will start sooner or later against him. 

Even Aegon IV did not kill Merry Meg's husband. 

 

 

[The Wolves]

On 8/17/2016 at 7:16 PM, purple-eyes said:

what order did he give to jaime?

i left my wife and children in your hands? 

this is not an order. 

if it is order, it should be " i asked you to protect them". 

rhaegar just carelessly left all his royal family to jaime, including parents, brother, wife and children. he did not order anything and he can not order KG either when his dad is around.  

 

 

[Bael's Bastard]

All it takes for Rhaegar to marry Lyanna while he is still married to Elia is for him to have a proper ceremony and consummation with Lyanna according to the ways of some gods or another. Nothing in the books undermines this.

[AdesteFideles]

13 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

I did not get your point. Rhaegar may be popular at one point, but after he ran off with Robert's bride and disappeared for one year and left the whole country in bloody war, will he still popular? 

Even as you said, he killed an innocent Robert and declared Lyanna as his glorious second queen, you think people will happily hold him as new king? I think a second war will start sooner or later against him. 

Even Aegon IV did not kill Merry Meg's husband. 

 

 

Sure, individuals could have held a grudge against Rhaegar, but the masses wouldn't. Aerys might have been mad, but it doesn't mean he was stupid. The people of King's Landing knew what was in store for them if the city fell and Rhaegar would have been the one given credit for avoiding that fate. Along with all the Lords that had just fought aside him, and the small folk of King's Landing with him, would Aerys have brought him to task over having two wives?

Also, if he had come back the hero and instigated his "changes", who is left to oppose him in anything? 

If he had called a great council after deposing his father can you realistically say that Rhaegar would not have been chosen as King?

Also, with everyone defeated and bending the knee, who is left for this "second war"?

[SFDanny]

14 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

All it takes for Rhaegar to marry Lyanna while he is still married to Elia is for him to have a proper ceremony and consummation with Lyanna according to the ways of some gods or another. Nothing in the books undermines this.

Let's see, he has already performed the most important part of the wilding ritual, and for the ceremony for the old gods they just need a godswood tree, and if Rhaegar knows the Valyrian rites he has his loyal Kingsguard to help him do those. That leaves finding a sympathetic or drunken septon to say a few words on their long journey to Dorne. None of which seems insurmountable. This isn't the difficult part of the plan.

Getting Dad to go along, or setting dear old dad aside is the real problem, and as I recall Rhaegar was working on that when he died. But then we all know Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't live long lives in matrimonial bliss. Doesn't mean they weren't trying.

[Lord Varys]

On 11.11.2016 at 4:17 PM, lojzelote said:

Would he? I doubt that Rhaenys' descendants were enamored of Visenya's memory.

They weren't. The only Targaryen male ever named after Visenya seems to have been the first Prince Viserys, Aenys I's second son. Jaehaerys I's daughter Viserra and his grandson Viserys I both seem to be named after the first Viserys, Jaehaerys I's elder brother, who was cruelly killed by Maegor the Cruel.

The only Targaryen girl ever named after Visenya was a stillborn monstrosity. Sort of a statement in itself.

But if you think Rhaegar tried to model his children after the Conqueror and his sisters he should have named his eldest daughter Visenya. That he did not is a pretty big hint that he had no such intentions, even more so considering that his idea that his unborn son might be the promised prince was caused by the comet that was seen in the night of Aegon's conception, some time after the birth and naming of the Princess Rhaenys.

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That's only a technicality. Anyway, wasn't the original word in High Valyrian "dragon"?

Sure, but Rhaegar wouldn't necessarily have known or cared about that (depending whether he read a translation or the High Valyrian original). The important part about the three-headed dragon as a symbol relating to prophecy is the fact that it is one dragon with three heads rather than three individual dragons. I think that's actually a clue to the true meaning of the prophecy - it is referring to one dragon with three heads, a Targaryen savior in three forms, a savior trinity that has to work together to finish the mission. That would be Dany, Jon, and Tyrion, in my opinion.

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Daemon Blackfyre has been referred to a a black dragon many times over.

That doesn't make him a prince.

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But if you want to give it more substance, then it should be also about other qualities. In AGoT Dany says that Viserys isn't a dragon, but only a shadow of a snake. Was she doubting his kingship or Targaryen heritage? No, but she found him unworthy of the title based on his terrible personality and lack of abilities.

The same goes for Rhaegar aka the Last Dragon; he wasn't the last Targaryen in Westeros nor was he born the last, but he was the last one in whom people of Westeros saw any promise

That is true. But if we assume that a girl like Rhaenys could have been a dragon head in Rhaegar's mind the idea that some not-so-stable Targaryen like Viserys could have been a dragon head, too, isn't all that far-fetched.

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Either over being dragonspawn that killed Lyanna or over being the proof of Lyanna making him a cuckold. Depends on what he knows in such a scenario.

The thing is that Robert isn't that bad guy Ned thinks he is. Yes, he definitely fears that Robert might kill Jon but I still think he needs a reason for that other than that 'he is Rhaegar's bastard'. Ned thinks Robert might think Cersei's children because she really humiliated him making him a cuckold but he never fears that anybody would harm Robert's many bastards. They are irrelevant aside from, perhaps, Edric Storm.

The idea that Robert would consider killing some bastard child of Lyanna's who is also Ned's nephew is a pretty big stretch. That would not only mark the end of their friendship but could very well mean war all over again, and I'm pretty sure the majority of the lords would not support the king who kills children.

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That's strange. I seem to remember reading about it. Well, searching the net, it appears to be a common theory.

If you're interested there's a video on the subject (I stopped it near the relevant passage). These are my thoughts exactly as to what had happened. Ghost had informed Aegon she had dreamt of a dragon born at Summerhall, and Aegon had taken it  as a sign that an attempt to hatch dragons at that place would be a success. But they had made the same mistake as Daemon II Blackfyre; it hadn't been a literal dragon, it had been a Targaryen, who would later fittingly receive the moniker the Last Dragon

I know the video but the theory is at odds with what we know about the Ghost's prophecy. We know that she made a prophecy to Prince Jaehaerys who then forced his children to marry each other against the will of Aegon V, who wasn't thrilled by that whole thing at all. Aegon V intended to hatch seven dragon eggs at Summerhall but there is no reason that he believed or cared very much about the prophecy of the promised prince. That was Jaehaerys' obsession, and possibly Aemon's as well. Aegon V apparently thought he could pull off whatever the promised prince was supposed to do - bring back the dragons himself.

On 11.11.2016 at 4:40 PM, lojzelote said:

Let's just say that I don't believe that Lyanna Stark's virtue was important enough to anybody in Westeros (except Brandon and perhaps Robert - he didn't actually do anything when it became known Rhaegar absconded with Lyanna, did he?) to start a war.

But what I am ultimately arguing for is that having her as mistress might cause turmoil, but a lesser turmoil than taking a second wife would have.

Unfortunately we don't know anything about Robert's thoughts and deeds at this point. We also don't know how much time passed between the events or when exactly Ned and Robert learned what had transpired outside of the Vale.

[Lord Varys]

On 11.11.2016 at 9:58 PM, AdesteFideles said:

If Raegar was triumphant at the Trident, and Robert was the one to have died, he would have returned to King's Landing the princely hero. He would have carried the day, vanquished the upstart traitors and saved the kingdom. If, after all that, he had then announced that he had also gotten himself another son on his brand new 2nd wife, I'm thinking that he might have pulled it off.

I'm sure there would have been fall-out over it, but considering how popular he was already, I think he was willing to risk it if the stakes were as high as he believed.

That is weird argument considering that Rhaegar might not have known about some rebellion nor about his role in it by the time he impregnated Lyanna. And killing Robert wouldn't have helped Rhaegar with pious lords and the High Septon opposing polygamy. If the rebels hadn't been defeated completely the Starks, Tullys, and Arryns could easily enough have regrouped in such a scenario.

20 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Let's see, he has already performed the most important part of the wilding ritual, and for the ceremony for the old gods they just need a godswood tree, and if Rhaegar knows the Valyrian rites he has his loyal Kingsguard to help him do those. That leaves finding a sympathetic or drunken septon to say a few words on their long journey to Dorne. None of which seems insurmountable. This isn't the difficult part of the plan.

Getting Dad to go along, or setting dear old dad aside is the real problem, and as I recall Rhaegar was working on that when he died. But then we all know Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't live long lives in matrimonial bliss. Doesn't mean they weren't trying.

The problem is more that Rhaegar, Lyanna, his buddies, and some common septon certainly wouldn't have had the power or the means to make Aerys II, the High Septon, the Faith, and the Realm believe that such a secret marriage took place. The most other marriages that are scandalized in the books are marriages nobody wants to have taken place but that are a reality (like Duncan-Jenny, Jaehaerys-Shaera, etc.). A first marriage is much more easier to accept than a second one. Such a thing can be dismissed on the grounds that it was never legal and the second wife just a mistress or a whore, not a lawful wife.

[SFDanny]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is weird argument considering that Rhaegar might not have known about some rebellion nor about his role in it by the time he impregnated Lyanna. And killing Robert wouldn't have helped Rhaegar with pious lords and the High Septon opposing polygamy. If the rebels hadn't been defeated completely the Starks, Tullys, and Arryns could easily enough have regrouped in such a scenario.

Let's be clear, my friend, observing that if Rhaegar is successful at the Trident, and successful at setting his father aside from the throne, would make him much more powerful in imposing his policies on Westeros and enhance his chance of success with getting the seven kingdoms to accept his polygamous marriage is all pretty self evident speculation, but it does not mean he planned it that way all along. I'm much more inclined to believe Rhaegar and Lyanna's plan was to wait until the upset around Lyanna and he running off together dies down, and then come back with the marriage already a fact. I don't think anyone could have said this act would lead Brandon to do what he foolishly did, or for Aerys's to kill Brandon, Rickard, Elbert and the rest, and then demand Robert and Ned's heads.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The problem is more that Rhaegar, Lyanna, his buddies, and some common septon certainly wouldn't have had the power or the means to make Aerys II, the High Septon, the Faith, and the Realm believe that such a secret marriage took place. The most other marriages that are scandalized in the books are marriages nobody wants to have taken place but that are a reality (like Duncan-Jenny, Jaehaerys-Shaera, etc.). A first marriage is much more difficult to accept than a second one. Such a thing can be dismissed on the grounds that it was never legal and the second wife just a mistress or a whore, not a lawful wife.

Again, we are talking about a speculative future in which Rhaegar won at the Trident defeating the rebel armies and either kill or capture the rebel lords, and one in which Rhaegar forces his father from the throne. Under those conditions it is not outrageous to say he not only has the greatest power in Westeros and has the ability to impose his will on this question. I don't claim he would not have some resistance, but I don't think the Faith has the power to stop him by themselves, nor would the more pious lords be in the position to oust him from the throne. Just my read of a future that did not happen.

btw, you do mean a first marriage is much easier to accept than a second one, right?

[purple-eyes]

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Let's be clear, my friend, observing that if Rhaegar is successful at the Trident, and successful at setting his father aside from the throne, would make him much more powerful in imposing his policies on Westeros and enhance his chance of success with getting the seven kingdoms to accept his polygamous marriage is all pretty self evident speculation, but it does not mean he planned it that way all along. I'm much more inclined to believe Rhaegar and Lyanna's plan was to wait until the upset around Lyanna and he running off together dies down, and then come back with the marriage already a fact. I don't think anyone could have said this act would lead Brandon to do what he foolishly did, or for Aerys's to kill Brandon, Rickard, Elbert and the rest, and then demand Robert and Ned's heads.

Again, we are talking about a speculative future in which Rhaegar won at the Trident defeating the rebel armies and either kill or capture the rebel lords, and one in which Rhaegar forces his father from the throne. Under those conditions it is not outrageous to say he not only has the greatest power in Westeros and has the ability to impose his will on this question. I don't claim he would not have some resistance, but I don't think the Faith has the power to stop him by themselves, nor would the more pious lords be in the position to oust him from the throne. Just my read of a future that did not happen.

btw, you do mean a first marriage is much easier to accept than a second one, right?

You are probably more optimistic than Rhaegar himself. 

Rhaegar won. Who lent him most power on Trident among all great houses? Martell. Who lost? Stark. Then Rhaegar declared that Lyanna Stark is his queen right in the face of House Martell? 

Oberyn and Doran would likely rebel and united with Stark-Tully-Arryn-Baratheon. Or Oberyn would poison or murder Rhaegar. They will install baby Aegon as new king. 

House Targaryen was never ever so weak and it is really not a good time for Rhaegar to challenge Faith by practising polygamy first time in 350 years.