Ygrain

R+L=J v.162

661 posts in this topic

@Lord Varys

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I daresay it would be rather difficult for the details to work themselves out in your scenario.

I don't agree at all. I think this idea could work rather simply. You might see it too, if unnecessary assumptions weren't the staple of your arguments.

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The point here being is that George seems to put a lot of focus on this Lyanna-Rhaegar thing as a love story because it is supposed to be an interesting story in itself. Not because it is connected to Jon Snow.

But it is inexorably connected to Jon Snow, and all his character entails. Which includes possibly being the PtwP.

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You are still insinuating that the 'love part' of the relationship was eventually overtaken by the prophecy part of it - which might not even have existed on Lyanna's side of the equation. I think this cheapens the entire story.

Nope.

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Still, pointing out some possibility isn't an argument. It is also possible Lyanna cut off her hair while she was with Rhaegar or that she only went barefoot for some reason. Mentioning such possibilities isn't an argument in favor of those possibilities.

My possibility was in response to your speculative claim about Lyanna's agency. Tit for tat.

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I beg your pardon? There are sons who have been named after their fathers in this series. Daemon II Blackfyre, for instance.

The basis for your argument is that it's happened before in Westerosi history. Brilliant. Anything indicating it happened in this particular case?

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Do you not want to understand? Lyanna having a child with Rhaegar does not equal her wanting that child to have a Targaryen name or being raised or connected to House Targaryen aside from his own father. Aerys II killed her father and brother (and might even have killed her child by Rhaegar, depending on the political circumstances).

Do you not want to understand? Lyanna having a child with Rhaegar makes that baby Targaryen by blood, if not by title. What I am suggesting is fact. What you are suggesting is speculation. And the fact that Jon would be a Targaryen by blood, if not by title, constitutes the motive for giving the baby a Targaryen name.

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That isn't the issue. The issue is why the hell would she choose the names of people she is not associated with. Some Aegons or Aemons of the past don't matter to her. The only Targaryen she had a personal connection with was named Rhaegar.

Yes, she had a personal connection with Rhaegar. Which gives Lyanna motive to follow his wishes. Perhaps he wished the baby to be named Aemon. Or, Lyanna knew that Rhaegar wished his son and heir to bear the name Aegon.

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She certainly would have been able to do that. I just don't think she would have. Because she would, as a character, lack the agency to do so.

How so?

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Why the hell would Lyanna have wanted to name her child after the Dragonknight? What has the Dragonknight to do with her son? What has the Dragonknight to do with anything in this debate? Surely you agree that Rhaegar would have chosen the name Aemon to honor his great-granduncle rather than the Dragonknight.

It's not necessarily an issue of naming Jon after the Dragonknight. But knowing that Aemon is a famous, and traditional, Targaryen name, and that Lyanna would have been familiar with it. If Jon was specifically named after someone, I agree that it's more likely Rhaegar deciding to honor Maester Aemon. But I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Lyanna chose a Targaryen name that she was familiar with. The Dragonknight was quite the hero.

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I'll try it again. An action is only rationally justified if you do it for the right reasons - understandable and rationally justifiable - reasons. Basing your decisions on translated prophecies you barely understand or can correctly interpret is not rational. Not even in a world like Westeros where visions and prophecies are actually a thing. Just read what Archmaester Marwyn - a man who has studied magic and prophecy in Martinworld a great deal - thinks about prophecies and their worth as a guiding principle for your actions.

Rhaegar was only right if only Jon Snow could fulfill the prophecy. Only then. If it just happens that Jon Snow does fulfill the prophecy but the chance remains that some other dude could have done it as well - because the prophecy just refers to deeds and actions anyone (or anyone with a drop of Targaryen blood - there are many such people) - then he was not right because there was no need to create some special child with Lyanna Stark.

You do understand I hope.

I understand, I just don't agree with you at all. And I'm going to leave it at that, so I don't have to read anymore of your philosophizing.

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Why are you even asking for the fulfillment of a prophecy to not be straightforward? Especially the prophecy about the dragons has been understood (and effectively fulfilled) quite literally by a Targaryen. That is a fact. People believed at least since the days of Aerys I that a prophecy foretold the literal return of the Targaryen dragons at one point. 

I'm not asking for it, I just have a hunch that it might not be. I'm also aware of the possibility that my hunch is wrong. Or that there is another option. That the characters are going to fulfill these prophecies in their own ways. Dany more literally, and Jon more figuratively. As far as the prophecy about the literal return of dragons, I've always felt like that might be akin to my third option. Where it would be fulfilled both with literal dragons, and with Targaryens.

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But we know her character. Spending a few months with Rhaegar is not going to change her character, the core of her being.

You're assuming that your extrapolation of her character is correct. Have fun with that.

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