The Walking Dead Season 7 (Comic Spoilers) What? Was the joke that bad?

[Nictarion]

2 hours ago, Relic said:

It's time to admit that season 2 was the best season of this show. 

It's definitely my favorite.

[TrackerNeil]

On 10/26/2016 at 9:41 PM, Commodore said:

torture porn in the sense that all they do is find ways to crank up the awfulness and bleakness and contriving terrible moral choices for the characters to make ("I know, let's make him decide whether or not to chop his son's arm off! What an agonizing decision! It will be so tense!")

and since they can't think of an organic way to create these scenarios, they have a wackjob villain who just stages them for fun

I just caught up on the series--I won't pay for that show but I received it as a gift--and I think this is right. Negan is a ridiculous villain in the mold of Ramsay Snow. Boring as well. Yet I think @Castel is also correct that Negan's model is totally plausible; anyone who voted for Trump knows just how attractive a projection of strength can be, particularly in such an uncertain situation. If you work for the Saviors, your job is simple: do what Negan wants. You'll eat, you'll sleep safely, and you'll have a community, of a sort. You'll be required to occasionally participate in or even commit acts of atrocity, but it's an atrocious world, isn't it?

I suspect that lots of Negan's people hate him and would love to see him meet the business end of a knife, but making that happen isn't easy. If Negan catches you fomenting dissent you're dead, and horrifically so. Besides, it seems to me that for a rebellion to succeed you need a credible alternative, and we have no idea if there is anyone the Saviors would regard as a worthy successor. Even if you did unseat Negan, what then happens to the Saviors? The surrounding communities hate them like fire, and would be pleased to pick them off one by one as they struggle to figure out the post-Negan world.

Also, I have to say that I find myself unable to sympathize with Rick to any great extent, although I feel sorry for those who have followed him. Like Negan, Rick Grimes considers violence a go-to solution for many problems, and even though he lacks Negan's sadistic streak, the two men share a need to dominate others through force. Leaving that aside, Rick just makes bad decisions. The decision to attack the observatory was just unwise. Rick didn't know anything about the people he was planning to kill. How many were there? What kind of weapons did they possess? Did they have allies? He just decided that, since his group was good at killing, they'd trade their murder-skills for food. That's not too far from what the Saviors do, right?

[red snow]

12 hours ago, Nictarion said:

It's definitely my favorite.

it lost a lot of its spark when Shane exited. He seemed to be a good example of pragmatic insanity without actually enjoying it. I liked the balance between him and rational rick. They seem to have tried it again with Rick and Morgan but Morgan is irrationally calm.

1 hour ago, TrackerNeil said:

I just caught up on the series--I won't pay for that show but I received it as a gift--and I think this is right. Negan is a ridiculous villain in the mold of Ramsay Snow. Boring as well. Yet I think @Castel is also correct that Negan's model is totally plausible; anyone who voted for Trump knows just how attractive an projection of strength can be, particularly in such an uncertain situation. If you work for the Saviors, your job is simple: do what Negan wants. You'll eat, you'll sleep safely, and you'll have a community, of a sort. You'll be required to occasionally participate in or even commit acts of atrocity, but it's an atrocious world, isn't it?

 

It's plausible but only if everyone in his club are cattle. I'd imagine his social circle tends to cause fellow sociopaths to rise to the top and it would be inevitable that they'd want to rise to the top too. So unless Negan has a a good way of weeding these ones out (which he may well have given the fact he's constantly challenging everyone) someone will take him down. I think Dwight is too savvy/scared to dare attack Negan but would do so if he thought it was safe to.

I also doubt most Trump supporters would be voting for him again if Trump decided their wife was now his. I'd hope so anyhow but who knows? That's where Negan becomes too OTT for me. I can see people enjoying the security his bullying of other communities brings but no one is safe with him as their leader and almost everyone has an issue with people messing with their family. It may be the case in the show that the scenario with Dwight is more of a punishment but in the comics Negan has his pick of women. If i recall correctly Dwight was scarred/tried to leave because Negan selected his wife and not the other way around. Maybe TV Negan isn't as bad in which case his powerbase is somewhat more stable.

[Castel]

1 hour ago, red snow said:

it lost a lot of its spark when Shane exited. He seemed to be a good example of pragmatic insanity without actually enjoying it. I liked the balance between him and rational rick. They seem to have tried it again with Rick and Morgan but Morgan is irrationally calm.

It's plausible but only if everyone in his club are cattle. I'd imagine his social circle tends to cause fellow sociopaths to rise to the top and it would be inevitable that they'd want to rise to the top too. So unless Negan has a a good way of weeding these ones out (which he may well have given the fact he's constantly challenging everyone) someone will take him down. I think Dwight is too savvy/scared to dare attack Negan but would do so if he thought it was safe to.

I also doubt most Trump supporters would be voting for him again if Trump decided their wife was now his. I'd hope so anyhow but who knows? That's where Negan becomes too OTT for me. I can see people enjoying the security his bullying of other communities brings but no one is safe with him as their leader and almost everyone has an issue with people messing with their family. It may be the case in the show that the scenario with Dwight is more of a punishment but in the comics Negan has his pick of women. If i recall correctly Dwight was scarred/tried to leave because Negan selected his wife and not the other way around. Maybe TV Negan isn't as bad in which case his powerbase is somewhat more stable.

It's worth noting that that is not what happens with Dwight.

Dwight's sister-in-law is offered the chance to be his bride in exchange for medicine, Dwight steals the medicine and runs away and she dies, then he comes back and, to prevent Negan from killing Dwight (after he agreed to not kill his wife) she chose to stay with him. And after coming back Dwight becomes one of his best earners.

In the comics Dwight's wife presumably picks Negan (it's implied that she's a mercenary and disloyal figure) then goes back to Dwight, and then Negan scars him (and another guy) because you can theoretically (but maybe not, cause of the implication) leave Negan even after marriage but you can't sleep around on him. Of course, there goes all the good stuff(and presumably things like free medicine) you get.

I mean, rape is rape (no matter how people argue online that Negan's rules prevent this because he's so against violent sexual assault)but Negan didn't waltz in and just take Dwight's wife. It wasn't an arbitrary thing.

 

I think, when it comes down to it, there're plenty of people who already join shitty things like gangs and militias and groups of hooligans without the world ending or without being sociopaths (sociopaths are a scapegoat. People in general are capable of incredible inhumanity, bad things don't all come from 5% of the population).If people will hurt each other for a football match they'll do it for Negan.

If Negan is offering you what he offered Dwight and the fucking world ended and you see everyone on the points system living horribly..considering how travel itself  (especially alone)is a threat to your life and Negan was slowly gaining hold of all the neighboring communities...

The cult of personality and The Rules help too. In the comics he's a brutal fuck but most every time he hurts someone in his group it involves the rules iirc.

And lol, season 2 was great. Member meaningless filler like the well zombie? Member Lori being dumb every other episode ? I member.

 

[TrackerNeil]

49 minutes ago, Castel said:

I think, when it comes down to it, there're plenty of people who already join shitty things like gangs and militias and groups of hooligans without the world ending or without being sociopaths (sociopaths are a scapegoat. People in general are capable of incredible inhumanity, bad things don't all come from 5% of the population).If people will hurt each other for a football match they'll do it for Negan.

Yup. And there are people who likely consider themselves incapable of cruelty who are indeed quite capable when properly induced. A zombie apocalypse likely brings out both the very best and the very worst in folks.

[Dr. Pepper]

I'm not sure what's so surprising about the Saviors following Negan.  He's been wildly successful at keeping a large group safe and fed.  Sure, he's bullying the other groups into providing goods for them in exchange for something, and the trade terms are most favorable to Negan's group, but it's the zombie apocalypse and they just aren't in the place of being able to facilitate fair trade deals. That's enough to inspire loyalty.  

We see Negan be unbearably cruel to our crew, but we've also seen our crew kill dozens of the Saviors, some of the in their sleep.  Negan couldn't stay leader if he let Rick's crew off light.  There is little surprise for why Negan's followers are ok with what he does to Rick's followers.  To the Saviors, it's clear that if they don't squash Rick and co. in some way then THEY will soon be squashed.  And hey, at least Negan leaves most of the people alive, unlike Rick who tends to leave behind nothing but dead bodies.  

I do agree that Negan is boring, though.  The show is just boring.  They need to figure out how to improve the formula.  

[red snow]

1 hour ago, Castel said:

It's worth noting that that is not what happens with Dwight.

Dwight's sister-in-law is offered the chance to be his bride in exchange for medicine, Dwight steals the medicine and runs away and she dies, then he comes back and, to prevent Negan from killing Dwight (after he agreed to not kill his wife) she chose to stay with him. And after coming back Dwight becomes one of his best earners.

In the comics Dwight's wife presumably picks Negan (it's implied that she's a mercenary and disloyal figure) then goes back to Dwight, and then Negan scars him (and another guy) because you can theoretically (but maybe not, cause of the implication) leave Negan even after marriage but you can't sleep around on him. Of course, there goes all the good stuff(and presumably things like free medicine) you get.

 

And lol, season 2 was great. Member meaningless filler like the well zombie? Member Lori being dumb every other episode ? I member.

 

I probably am mismembering. The part you bolded was in reference to the comic. I didn't think she had a great deal of choice there either - it was just Negan's warped sense of convincing himself he's not a rapist. I was under the impression in the show that Dwight's "wife" was now Negan's? And that she had little choice besides a shitty one to agree.

As for season 2 - it just highlights how the show has been incredibly consistent over the years

[Castel]

36 minutes ago, red snow said:

I probably am mismembering. The part you bolded was in reference to the comic. I didn't think she had a great deal of choice there either - it was just Negan's warped sense of convincing himself he's not a rapist. I was under the impression in the show that Dwight's "wife" was now Negan's? And that she had little choice besides a shitty one to agree.

As for season 2 - it just highlights how the show has been incredibly consistent over the years

Yes.He was going to kill Dwight for stealing the medicine and she offered to have sex with him to avoid that. Now, that's rape, but that's different from Negan just showing up and yoinking someone's wife. Dwight did steal the medicine and run off. (this didn't happen in the comics).

Easy to see why people didn't rise in solidarity with Dwight.

[red snow]

16 minutes ago, Castel said:

Yes.He was going to kill Dwight for stealing the medicine and she offered to have sex with him to avoid that. Now, that's rape, but that's different from Negan just showing up and yoinking someone's wife. Dwight did steal the medicine and run off. (this didn't happen in the comics).

Easy to see why people didn't rise in solidarity with Dwight.

That fits and certainly shows how Dwight is in no position to do anything. Even if he did snap and kill Negan there's a good chance the rest of them would kill him anyhow.

 

[TrackerNeil]

23 minutes ago, Castel said:

Yes.He was going to kill Dwight for stealing the medicine and she offered to have sex with him to avoid that. Now, that's rape, but that's different from Negan just showing up and yoinking someone's wife. Dwight did steal the medicine and run off. (this didn't happen in the comics).

Easy to see why people didn't rise in solidarity with Dwight.

Getting people to rise in solidarity with anything is hard, and when that thing is a scary guy like Negan it is nearly impossible. If I'm a rank-and-file Savior, I'd want to know what going up against the most frightening person I know gets me. Security? I have that now. Moral satisfaction? Please. 

I imagine Negan commands no true loyalty, and if he were to stumble his followers might set upon him like a pack of velociraptors, but for now what the guy is doing is working. 

[Castel]

1 hour ago, TrackerNeil said:

Getting people to rise in solidarity with anything is hard, and when that thing is a scary guy like Negan it is nearly impossible. If I'm a rank-and-file Savior, I'd want to know what going up against the most frightening person I know gets me. Security? I have that now. Moral satisfaction? Please. 

I imagine Negan commands no true loyalty, and if he were to stumble his followers might set upon him like a pack of velociraptors, but for now what the guy is doing is working. 

Point is that Dwight isn't a sign of arbitrary behavior. If Negan just walked in and was raping people's wives randomly or bashing people's heads in then the argument that someone would have just whacked Negan or he has little to offer to counterbalance his behavior has more force. That's not what happened. What happened was Dwight (and Rick)  broke the rules so people may not see his plight as something generalizable to themselves, especially the ones better off.

 

[TrackerNeil]

20 minutes ago, Castel said:

Point is that Dwight isn't a sign of arbitrary behavior. If Negan just walked in and was raping people's wives randomly or bashing people's heads in then the argument that someone would have just whacked Negan or he has little to offer to counterbalance his behavior has more force. That's not what happened. What happened was Dwight (and Rick)  broke the rules so people may not see his plight as something generalizable to themselves, especially the ones better off.

Agreed. What Negan did to Dwight wasn't wantonly malicious; it was malicious, but definitely not wanton.

Why did Negan spare Rick? (Other than TWD doesn't want to fire Andrew Lincoln.) Wouldn't you think that the last person you want in charge of Alexandria is a guy who himself likes violent approaches to problems?

[Dr. Pepper]

What would be the point of killing Rick?  It shows Negan is both benevolent and just.  He ruthlessly punishes but also shows mercy.  Further, Rick's people have shown they will follow him into anything, including murdering a bunch of unknowns in their sleep.  If Negan can break Rick, maybe they'll just meekly continue to follow him into doing what Negan wants.  

[Castel]

He gives his reasoning in the comics as not wanting to make Rick a martyr. I suspect he enjoys dominating formidable people

In the show it's like he read Machiavelli and wants to do the opposite of what he suggested when it comes to injuring people. This is a guy who's comfortable arming a guy he mutilated and cuckolds constantly. In his mind, I guess if you can make a productive Savior out of Dwight you can bring anyone to heel. And he doesn't seem to be wrong, since Dwight has kinda drunk the koolaid at this point anyway.

[red snow]

5 hours ago, TrackerNeil said:

Agreed. What Negan did to Dwight wasn't wantonly malicious; it was malicious, but definitely not wanton.

Why did Negan spare Rick? (Other than TWD doesn't want to fire Andrew Lincoln.) Wouldn't you think that the last person you want in charge of Alexandria is a guy who himself likes violent approaches to problems?

It's mainly plot armour.

5 hours ago, Castel said:

He gives his reasoning in the comics as not wanting to make Rick a martyr. I suspect he enjoys dominating formidable people

In the show it's like he read Machiavelli and wants to do the opposite of what he suggested when it comes to injuring people. This is a guy who's comfortable arming a guy he mutilated and cuckolds constantly. In his mind, I guess if you can make a productive Savior out of Dwight you can bring anyone to heel. And he doesn't seem to be wrong, since Dwight has kinda drunk the koolaid at this point anyway.

I think this plays a big part in the TV show.

The odd thing is that in the comics Rick was far less of a threat than he was in the TV show. I might be forgeting the comics but I'm pretty sure he just stood up against a raiding party in the comics. In the show he's a far more dangerous threat but Castel has described how Negan may be overconfident based on his own track record.

I think what will be tricky with the show is (assuming they loosely follow the comics) they turn Negan into someone who admires and may even accept Rick's way of doing things is better. It's a hard pill to swallow in the comics but the TV show has upped the stakes in a way thay it feels they'll have to go further to reach the same point. Because there has been no evidence from Rick to make Negan respect him. Daryll and Carl are closer to that with Negan at the moment.

[briantw]

7 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

What would be the point of killing Rick?  It shows Negan is both benevolent and just.  He ruthlessly punishes but also shows mercy.  Further, Rick's people have shown they will follow him into anything, including murdering a bunch of unknowns in their sleep.  If Negan can break Rick, maybe they'll just meekly continue to follow him into doing what Negan wants.  

Yup.  If he can make Rick bend the knee, he can assume the people following him will do so as well, or at least most of them.  If you kill Rick, someone else steps up to lead who might not fall into line, especially after what happened to the former leader.  Further, killing others for Rick's actions takes advantage of one of Rick's biggest weaknesses in a zombie apocalypse...that he cares too much about his people.

[TrackerNeil]

9 hours ago, Castel said:

He gives his reasoning in the comics as not wanting to make Rick a martyr. I suspect he enjoys dominating formidable people

In the show it's like he read Machiavelli and wants to do the opposite of what he suggested when it comes to injuring people. This is a guy who's comfortable arming a guy he mutilated and cuckolds constantly. In his mind, I guess if you can make a productive Savior out of Dwight you can bring anyone to heel. And he doesn't seem to be wrong, since Dwight has kinda drunk the koolaid at this point anyway.

I don't know...I'd have said Rick's biggest weakness is that he's an overconfident, emotionally unstable man who relies far too heavily on violence to solve his problems. 

[Pecan]

It seems to me that Coral could have just shot Negan and the rest of the saviors would have been fine with it. 

[Pecan]

Also, here's a question for you guys. Even though a lot of us don't especially like Negan or this whole arc of the story, I think most would agree that JDM is pretty compelling in his portrayal.  With that in mind, why in the hell isn't Jeffrey Dean Morgan a bigger TV/Movie Star than he is? I mean, he's had a pretty solid career, don't get me wrong. But, his screen presence is really electric. It's just my opinion, but I think he should be bigger than he is.

[Commodore]

did we need an extra half hour of Negan preening

the writers way overestimate his charisma