So Brienne is a bastard?

[Drekinn]

Since we know Brienne is a descendant of Dunk does that make her a bastard? Dunk never married so he must have had an affair with a woman from Tarth who gave birth to his child but passed it off as her actual husband's child. Does it make the Tarth line obsolete?

[Buried Treasure]

Brienne is not a  bastard because her parents were married. Whether the Tarth line is illegitmate is unclear;do we know Dunk was never married? I thought we knew only that he was in the Kingsguard, but that does not mean he never married between the novellas and him joining. 

In any case, Brienne being a descendant of an unmarried Dunk would not  ecessarily mean that a Tarth lord was cuckolded. Dunk could have had an acknowledged bastard child born andraised on Tarth who later married into House Tarth.

[Ebrose]

We do not know whether Dunk married or not. We only know that he is not married at the end of TMK and at some point in his future he will become a KG. In the middle, lots of things can happen. He might get married with a noble woman and getting widowed, for all we know.

But regardless of what happens, Brienne is not a bastard as long as she is a legitimate daughter. Might his father be a legitimised bastard? Yes, it is possible. But that does not make her a bastard in any sense.

For the record, remember she is called Brienne OF TARTH, and not Brienne TARTH, which may hint towards an issue about the nobility of the ruling family in the island. Or maybe not. I guess we will find out.

[Nyrhex]

If Dunk pulled a Cersei and tried to pass off his child as another's and if it gets found out somehow, then it would be very problematic. 

Brienne is not a bastard herself, but her father, or his father at most, is. Assuming the family has a legal branch left, they would try and press thier claim (or the lord of Storm's End or the king would try and remove the usurpers from Tarth). Brinne would be a decendent of a bastard, and have no right to the name Tarth, or a claim or pretty much anything since even the armor she wears technically belongs to house Tarth. At most she gets to keep the sword because Jaime gave it to her.

But like Daeron II being the son of the Dragonknight according to the Blackfyres, or Joffrey and Myrcella and Tommen being Jaime's according to Stannis, it would just end up being a word against word, and swords would settle the matter, because there is no DNA testing in Westeros. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

Dunk is a mute point with regards to Brienne being a bastard.  Bastard status does not pass on through generations.

[HoodedCrow]

Baratheon kids included, it would extremely difficult to prove if a cuckolding had taken place, and those children are not illegitimate for the purposes of inheriting. Only if the father is completely separated from the mother in space and timing could you prove non parenthood. It's only been recent that DNA is a slam dunk.

[Nyrhex]

49 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Dunk is a mute point with regards to Brienne being a bastard.  Bastard status does not pass on through generations.

Assuming that her father or grandfather were dunk's sons rather than Tarths, Brienne is not a Tarth herself. There is some indication that a bastard's child is looked down upon as well, and suffers from the stigma of bastards, but it is not clear if there are any legal implications aside of that. It is very much not a mute point regarding Brienne because as of now she is the heir to the house of Tarth, and if it is revealed and there is some proof that Dunk passed off his bastard at some point as a legit Tarth, a branch of the family would challenge her father's calim and the law would be very much on thier side. Brienne and her father would lose everything. Aside of her sword.

It's actually interesting if this is not an option that the books are hinting at, considering that for the daughter and heir of a Stormlord, Brinne has been running around pledging her sword all over the place as if she is a hedge knight without a family or a place to call home. She does not actually show any sign of ever returning to Tarth. 

[Pain killer Jane]

Brienne is not a bastard. More than likely Brienne is probably the great granddaughter of Dunk and Rohanne Webber. She had a sexual relationship with Dunk but she married Ser Eustace Osgrey. More than likely, Lady Rohanne was pregnant but passed it off as Ser Eustace's child. This child especially if it was a girl would have probably married into House Tarth. 

If this is the case, this child is the older sister of Tytos Lannister and therefore the aunt of Tywin Lannister. Therefore Brienne, Jaime and Cersei are second cousins. 

[BalerionTheCat]

Do we know who is Selwyn's wife? Or his mother? If the Lord of Tarth or his father had married a daughter of Dunk, it would not make a bastard of Brienne.

[Jaak]

Look at the timeline.

Duncan the Tall is born in 192; 17 year old virgin in 209 and 20 and still a virgin in 212. Right?

And first attested as Kingsguard in 233, then 41 years old.

Brienne is born around 280.

If, say, Duncan and Tanselle married and had a daughter before 220, and Tanselle left Duncan a widower free to join Kingsguard before 233, then Duncan and Tanselle´s child could easily have been Brienne´s great-grandparent.

Incidentally: Kingsguard are expressly forbidden to be married during service (Fireball sent his wife to Silent Sisters in advance). Or "father" children. What is the position on Kingsguard with minor trueborn children?

[Macgregor of the North]

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Do we know who is Selwyn's wife? Or his mother? If the Lord of Tarth or his father had married a daughter of Dunk, it would not make a bastard of Brienne.

There is a very decent theory that Dunk marries and has a child with one of Eggs sisters, or just has a bastard with her. 

This (possible) daughter of their union could go on to be Selwyn Tarths mother.

This could go on to explain the 'recent' Tarth Targ connection and explain Brienne descending from Dunk at the same time.

Correct though, this would not make a bastard of Brienne. 

[Michael Mertyns]

8 hours ago, Jaak said:

Incidentally: Kingsguard are expressly forbidden to be married during service (Fireball sent his wife to Silent Sisters in advance). Or "father" children. What is the position on Kingsguard with minor trueborn children?

Incidentally, the way it's described sounds very similar to the vows of the NW. We know the NW allows people who were married and had children as long as they leave them behind in service. If Dunk had a child before joining the KG he would not be fathering children while he was in office.

[Macgregor of the North]

8 minutes ago, Michael Mertyns said:

Incidentally, the way it's described sounds very similar to the vows of the NW. We know the NW allows people who were married and had children as long as they leave them behind in service. If Dunk had a child before joining the KG he would not be fathering children while he was in office.

But there are brothers of the NW who have fathered children after saying the vows. If the situation arose while Dunk was in office there is the possibility he could father a child for sure. KG members have had women before. 

We first know of Dunk being KG in 236AC. It's probably likely though he was admitted by Egg in 233AC when he ascended the throne.

Lets try a quick angle here. 

Dunk meets Nan during Dagon Greyjoy reaving campaign in the North. They have a connection. Share a kiss at the heart tree. 

233AC- Dunk goes to the wall with Aemon and BR. He then stops by WF to check on the people he helped years back. Nan is there. Old feelings arise. They do the deed this time instead of just a kiss. Leaves Nan with child. This line produces Hodor one day. 

Just an example sure, but the possibilities are there.

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

23 hours ago, Nyrhex said:

Assuming that her father or grandfather were dunk's sons rather than Tarths, Brienne is not a Tarth herself. There is some indication that a bastard's child is looked down upon as well, and suffers from the stigma of bastards, but it is not clear if there are any legal implications aside of that. It is very much not a mute point regarding Brienne because as of now she is the heir to the house of Tarth, and if it is revealed and there is some proof that Dunk passed off his bastard at some point as a legit Tarth, a branch of the family would challenge her father's calim and the law would be very much on thier side. Brienne and her father would lose everything. Aside of her sword.

It's actually interesting if this is not an option that the books are hinting at, considering that for the daughter and heir of a Stormlord, Brinne has been running around pledging her sword all over the place as if she is a hedge knight without a family or a place to call home. She does not actually show any sign of ever returning to Tarth. 

In terms of succession it might not be a mute point, but to her being a bastard it is.  She was born of wed parents, at least as far as we know and Dunk does not change that.

[Hot Capicola]

On 7/24/2016 at 2:21 PM, Nyrhex said:

Assuming that her father or grandfather were dunk's sons rather than Tarths, Brienne is not a Tarth herself. There is some indication that a bastard's child is looked down upon as well, and suffers from the stigma of bastards, but it is not clear if there are any legal implications aside of that. It is very much not a mute point regarding Brienne because as of now she is the heir to the house of Tarth, and if it is revealed and there is some proof that Dunk passed off his bastard at some point as a legit Tarth, a branch of the family would challenge her father's calim and the law would be very much on thier side. Brienne and her father would lose everything. Aside of her sword.

It's actually interesting if this is not an option that the books are hinting at, considering that for the daughter and heir of a Stormlord, Brinne has been running around pledging her sword all over the place as if she is a hedge knight without a family or a place to call home. She does not actually show any sign of ever returning to Tarth. 

Why is it assumed that Duncan's kids were boy?  What if he had a bastard daughter who legally married the Lord of Tarth?

[Jaak]

8 minutes ago, Hot Capicola said:

Why is it assumed that Duncan's kids were boy?  What if he had a bastard daughter who legally married the Lord of Tarth?

Or a trueborn daughter who was quite acceptable match for a third or fourth son of a poor lord, being not much better than a household knight.

[Nyrhex]

9 hours ago, Hot Capicola said:

Why is it assumed that Duncan's kids were boy?  What if he had a bastard daughter who legally married the Lord of Tarth?

Sure, it's been raised as a plausible scenario. But I'm talking about the scenario where Dunk passes his own bastard as someone else's kid, and how that would relate to Brienne. I

[Jaak]

45 minutes ago, Nyrhex said:

Sure, it's been raised as a plausible scenario. But I'm talking about the scenario where Dunk passes his own bastard as someone else's kid, and how that would relate to Brienne.

But if he did, why would Duncan leave his mementoes in the household of the child who officially had nothing to do with him?

Also: Selwyn is 54. So roughly correct age for one of Brienne's grandparents to be Duncan's child.

[Nyrhex]

Just now, Jaak said:

But if he did, why would Duncan leave his mementoes in the household of the child who officially had nothing to do with him?

Also: Selwyn is 54. So roughly correct age for one of Brienne's grandparents to be Duncan's child.

I don't know, maybe he was at some point in service to house Tarth, and did Mrs. Tarth during that time. His shield staying in the armory can mean anything. Again, it can just as well be his daughter before he took the white and it's all legit. I was talking about a scenario where he passed off a bastard and what that means regarding Brienne.

[Icefire92]

On 7/24/2016 at 1:22 PM, Pain killer Jane said:

Brienne is not a bastard. More than likely Brienne is probably the great granddaughter of Dunk and Rohanne Webber. She had a sexual relationship with Dunk but she married Ser Eustace Osgrey. More than likely, Lady Rohanne was pregnant but passed it off as Ser Eustace's child. This child especially if it was a girl would have probably married into House Tarth. 

If this is the case, this child is the older sister of Tytos Lannister and therefore the aunt of Tywin Lannister. Therefore Brienne, Jaime and Cersei are second cousins. 

Ugh...no wonder Jaime likes her. I thought he was getting over that whole relatives-only thing.