Is Westeros a more desirable place to rule than Essos ?

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

I'm not too clued up in how much of Essos Dany has managed to free and have hold of, but from the first few seasons it looks like she has overthrown a lot of big cities and areas of Essos, She feels Westeros is her birth right and feels the need to take back what she believes is hers and i suppose avenge her father.

But with the life she has built in Essos, and the love she has from the people, would Ruling Essos and eveyone being free under her rule not be a more rewarding and better life for her ?

 

She will lose countless more of the people she freed trying to take westeros than she would taking the remainder of Essos, if she remains in Essos she would rule an undiveded land were you can already see the slaves from each city merging together into one. there would be no uprising as they were all slaves and see her as a saviour.

In westeros there will always be a divide, people will try to over throw her or scheme against her...

And she is more Essos than a westeros having grown up most of her life there.

 

[Future Null Infinity]

Westeros is the ancestral kingdom of her fathers, it's normal that she think about Westeros and not Essos

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

24 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

Westeros is the ancestral kingdom of her fathers, it's normal that she think about Westeros and not Essos

i totally agree as that being the main reason for longing to return, but if it had been myself in her place after the years spent in Essos seeing the people look up to her and want her to rule and that all the people she has set free living in harmony together... Westeros would just seem less inviting.

Even if she gets the throne, the country will still be divided some who want her on the throne, some who don't... and there would still be plotting,scheming and plans to over throw her.

Would a whole land populated by purely ex-slaves whom she set free give her that many sleepless nights ? they see her as a god.

 

 I mean she is really cleaning Essos of all masters and nobles, and leaving it with the slaves populating the lands if she continued she could take the whole of Essos with less of a challenge than Westeros, let the peopl live in peace and give each of the Cities to her trusted advisors/generals.

 

Didn't the Targs originate from Essos long before their reign of Westeros ?

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

Dany managed to conquer 3 cities in a bay, she hasn't even touched half of Esso even and if she had tried to just expand her rule in Esso without getting further support from the likes of the Greyjoys, Tyrells(Redwynes let's be honest Olenna isn't an actual Tyrell) and Dorne she probably would of struggled even with 3 dragons. You got cities even bigger than the ones in slavers bay like Volantis, Lorath, Myr, Tyrosh, Pentos, Qohor, Norvos, and even Lys that she hasn't even touched and she probably won't since she has her eyes on Westeros now. She was never gonna eliminate slavery completely in Esso and if she had tried she probably either would of died or many on her side would of died. Conquering a Westeros already weak and ravaged by war where she also has support of houses there vs trying to conquer the other free cities who have not been a part of the conflicts in Westeros and who are at full military strength would of taken her years. 

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

38 minutes ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

Dany managed to conquer 3 cities in a bay, she hasn't even touched half of Esso even and if she had tried to just expand her rule in Esso without getting further support from the likes of the Greyjoys, Tyrells(Redwynes let's be honest Olenna isn't an actual Tyrell) and Dorne she probably would of struggled even with 3 dragons. You got cities even bigger than the ones in slavers bay like Volantis, Lorath, Myr, Tyrosh, Pentos, Qohor, Norvos, and even Lys that she hasn't even touched and she probably won't since she has her eyes on Westeros now. She was never gonna eliminate slavery completely in Esso and if she had tried she probably either would of died or many on her side would of died. Conquering a Westeros already weak and ravaged by war where she also has support of houses there vs trying to conquer the other free cities who have not been a part of the conflicts in Westeros and who are at full military strength would of taken her years. 

But her tactics up till now has been letting the slave folk take the cities from within, and I imagine the ratio of slaver to master will be the same throughout, she can take cities without even needing to use the force of her army. One by one they have fell from within, why would it be impossible for her to continue doing this till she has taken enough cities that others surrender when outnumbered.

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

32 minutes ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

But her tactics up till now has been letting the slave folk take the cities from within, and I imagine the ratio of slaver to master will be the same throughout, she can take cities without even needing to use the force of her army. One by one they have fell from within, why would it be impossible for her to continue doing this till she has taken enough cities that others surrender when outnumbered.

Dany was able to use this strategy on 3 cities who had never faced her before and that did not know of her infiltration strategy. They went against her with blind confidence. The other cities wouldn't make that same mistake after seeing what she has done in Slaver's Bay.

After a few cities have fell this way, I think the other cities are intelligent enough to figure out her strategy and would plan accordingly. I think if most of the other cities knew Dany was coming they'd ban together (Volantis was already helping fund the Sons of the Harpy, probably out of fear that'd Dany would try and liberate them next since they are the closest free city to Slaver's Bay that also has slavery) I think if the others like Pentos, Myr, Lys and Tyrosh knew she was coming they'd form a coalition and probably beat her, granted many would die.

One of the many reasons Westeros doesn't have slaves but doesn't try to liberate the Free Cities in Esso is because it'd be pointless. After winning (which would take even longer since Westeros doesn't have dragons anymore they'd have to win by levy strength alone and the Westerosi would be going into foreign lands where they could easily be ambushed by the armies of the free cities since the people from the Free Cities know the land better, it'd essentially be a Game of Thrones version of Vietnam) and after thousands/millions had died and the war was over, slavers would just over take the cities once again with no Westerosi armies there to keep them in line since most of the levies would go back home. Same thing happened to Dany in Slaver's Bay, once she left Astapor and Yunkai to go to Meereen the cities were overthrown and Slavery was re implemented again because her and her dragons weren't there to enforce the law.

The Targaryens had a similar problem back when they conquered Westeros, Dorne. Granted Slavery wasn't involved at all. Everytime The Targaryens would leave somebody to govern Dorne and head back north (Usually a Tyrell), the Dornish would imprison (and kill them) and become independent again. The Dornish actually managed to kill Rhaenys (Aegon the Conqueror's younger sister-wife) and her dragon Meraxas during this whole centuries long debacle with The Targaryens. The Targaryens never even actually conquered Dorne, they brought Dorne into the realm through marriage. Daenerys may have dragons, but that doesn't mean she'll be able to end slavery with that alone. Dragons aren't invincible.

Not saying it'd be impossible, but trying to keep all of Esso under an anti-slavery rule would be a difficult task even after she has conquered all the cities.

I also have to agree with Infinity, she has also been a Westerosi at her heart, and she has always considered Westeros her true home so it makes much more sense that she'd try to reclaim the Throne for her house.

[Future Null Infinity]

2 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

Didn't the Targs originate from Essos long before their reign of Westeros ?

you are right here, maybe Daenerys feels that she belongs in Westeros and that she have more ties with Westeros, personally I never felt  Daenerys as an essosi, I always felt that she's a westerosi to the heart

[Drogonthedread]

First of all I pity those who want to rule...and ruling is very difficult and harder in any place  ...its a duty one will always find a way fail to one way or another..you can't keep everyone happy..

16 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

I'm not too clued up in how much of Essos Dany has managed to free and have hold of, but from the first few seasons it looks like she has overthrown a lot of big cities and areas of Essos, She feels Westeros is her birth right and feels the need to take back what she believes is hers and i suppose avenge her father.

But with the life she has built in Essos, and the love she has from the people, would Ruling Essos and eveyone being free under her rule not be a more rewarding and better life for her ?

 

She will lose countless more of the people she freed trying to take westeros than she would taking the remainder of Essos, if she remains in Essos she would rule an undiveded land were you can already see the slaves from each city merging together into one. there would be no uprising as they were all slaves and see her as a saviour.

In westeros there will always be a divide, people will try to over throw her or scheme against her...

And she is more Essos than a westeros having grown up most of her life there.

 

I disagrer she is westerosi who lived in essos..but not essosi..

She speaks the common tongue worships seven gods and maintain westerosi culture..

10 hours ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

Dany was able to use this strategy on 3 cities who had never faced her before and that did not know of her infiltration strategy. They went against her with blind confidence. The other cities wouldn't make that same mistake after seeing what she has done in Slaver's Bay.

After a few cities have fell this way, I think the other cities are intelligent enough to figure out her strategy and would plan accordingly. I think if most of the other cities knew Dany was coming they'd ban together (Volantis was already helping fund the Sons of the Harpy, probably out of fear that'd Dany would try and liberate them next since they are the closest free city to Slaver's Bay that also has slavery) I think if the others like Pentos, Myr, Lys and Tyrosh knew she was coming they'd form a coalition and probably beat her, granted many would die.

One of the many reasons Westeros doesn't have slaves but doesn't try to liberate the Free Cities in Esso is because it'd be pointless. After winning (which would take even longer since Westeros doesn't have dragons anymore they'd have to win by levy strength alone and the Westerosi would be going into foreign lands where they could easily be ambushed by the armies of the free cities since the people from the Free Cities know the land better, it'd essentially be a Game of Thrones version of Vietnam) and after thousands/millions had died and the war was over, slavers would just over take the cities once again with no Westerosi armies there to keep them in line since most of the levies would go back home. Same thing happened to Dany in Slaver's Bay, once she left Astapor and Yunkai to go to Meereen the cities were overthrown and Slavery was re implemented again because her and her dragons weren't there to enforce the law.

The Targaryens had a similar problem back when they conquered Westeros, Dorne. Granted Slavery wasn't involved at all. Everytime The Targaryens would leave somebody to govern Dorne and head back north (Usually a Tyrell), the Dornish would imprison (and kill them) and become independent again. The Dornish actually managed to kill Rhaenys (Aegon the Conqueror's younger sister-wife) and her dragon Meraxas during this whole centuries long debacle with The Targaryens. The Targaryens never even actually conquered Dorne, they brought Dorne into the realm through marriage. Daenerys may have dragons, but that doesn't mean she'll be able to end slavery with that alone. Dragons aren't invincible.

Not saying it'd be impossible, but trying to keep all of Esso under an anti-slavery rule would be a difficult task even after she has conquered all the cities.

I also have to agree with Infinity, she has also been a Westerosi at her heart, and she has always considered Westeros her true home so it makes much more sense that she'd try to reclaim the Throne for her house.

You have to remember that 3 cities are the place where the slaves are actually made ...and by stopping the slavery there she ends the slave making and trade..

Volantis is also defeated ..

The cities like pentos won't stand a chance against  dany's forces and they are not prepared to an war as well...they will be massacared as well...thats why illyrio and magisters offer gifts to dothraki to not attack them..

One of the major factors in slave trade is dothraki who sells slaves to the masters..

And dothraki is now on dany side which means she has also stopped the major factor in slave trading ...

[Drogonthedread]

Its not really about dany's desire to rule westeros or essos..

She sees it as her duty as last targaryen to take back westeros for her ancestors..

She constantly looks for house with red door and believes she will find that in westeros..all she wants to do is go back to home..

But when she sees slavers bay she thinks its her duty as a queen to protect those who can't protect themselves ..and does the duty..she doesn't need to stay there forever..

She provided the spark that needed for the revolution and in her name other slave cities will also revoly and slowly slavery will be gone...but the ruling will be done by the people belonging to that part of lands and natives..

[A spoon of knife and fork]

15 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

But her tactics up till now has been letting the slave folk take the cities from within, and I imagine the ratio of slaver to master will be the same throughout, she can take cities without even needing to use the force of her army. One by one they have fell from within, why would it be impossible for her to continue doing this till she has taken enough cities that others surrender when outnumbered.

So one thing that's not totally clear from the show but which is true and I think you can see it from some subtle hints is that most of Essos is not like Slavers Bay and Volantis.  Think about Braavos - did you see any slaves there?  No because there aren't any.  It's in Essos and an anti - slave city already.  And while many of the other free cities like Qarth, Lys, Qohor, etc allow some slavery, most people in these cities are free, not slave.  

So when you ask why doesn't Dany just conquer all of Essos you're asking her to conquer cities of free men.  There won't be a popular uprising when only 10% of the population are enslaved.  And Braavos is not going to want to be conquered, nor does Dany have any moral reason to do so.

I do suspect that Braavos would see The Bay of Dragons as obvious allies, though the great distance between them might be problematic.  

Its probable that Volantis already has had a major slave uprising due to what happened in Mereen this season.  We know they sent a huge fleet and army to besiege the city - and their allies in SB are utterly defeated.  

Also like drogonthedread pointed out, most Dothraki soldiers (the primary source of untrained slaves to Slavers Bay) have left Essos now, and Slavers Bay is no longer producing trained slaves to sell to the cities in the west of Essos.  Many wealthy in these cities who might have bought a slave may now choose to employ a free servant as the cost of slaves is going to become relatively expensive since supply is down so much.  And with a free man you don't have the other costs of slaves to deal with (like feeding and housing them, and worrying they will slit your throat when you're asleep).  

Also if I'm a slave owner/trader in a western Essosian city I'm going to be pretty nervous about the proximity of a certain dragon queen.  She's occupied for the moment but that's a pretty narrow sea there.  I might find a new occupation.

I think slavery is close to being extinguished in Essos.  

[Drogonthedread]

1 hour ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

So one thing that's not totally clear from the show but which is true and I think you can see it from some subtle hints is that most of Essos is not like Slavers Bay and Volantis.  Think about Braavos - did you see any slaves there?  No because there aren't any.  It's in Essos and an anti - slave city already.  And while many of the other free cities like Qarth, Lys, Qohor, etc allow some slavery, most people in these cities are free, not slave.  

So when you ask why doesn't Dany just conquer all of Essos you're asking her to conquer cities of free men.  There won't be a popular uprising when only 10% of the population are enslaved.  And Braavos is not going to want to be conquered, nor does Dany have any moral reason to do so.

I do suspect that Braavos would see The Bay of Dragons as obvious allies, though the great distance between them might be problematic.  

Its probable that Volantis already has had a major slave uprising due to what happened in Mereen this season.  We know they sent a huge fleet and army to besiege the city - and their allies in SB are utterly defeated.  

Also like drogonthedread pointed out, most Dothraki soldiers (the primary source of untrained slaves to Slavers Bay) have left Essos now, and Slavers Bay is no longer producing trained slaves to sell to the cities in the west of Essos.  Many wealthy in these cities who might have bought a slave may now choose to employ a free servant as the cost of slaves is going to become relatively expensive since supply is down so much.  And with a free man you don't have the other costs of slaves to deal with (like feeding and housing them, and worrying they will slit your throat when you're asleep).  

Also if I'm a slave owner/trader in a western Essosian city I'm going to be pretty nervous about the proximity of a certain dragon queen.  She's occupied for the moment but that's a pretty narrow sea there.  I might find a new occupation.

I think slavery is close to being extinguished in Essos.  

Exactly ...its going to take sometime but it will eventually come to an end soon since the powers of ghiscari and volantis has been taken away by dany..show didn't show much of this but we have to assume this as like most of things in show .

And we know that dany has made armies like mother's men and such so the power base will strongly be on the side of freed men 

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

Glad you cleared that up,i must have missed it in the show or it wasn't so obvious I took it all or most cities were full of slaves but I agree if there i cities with free folk living i would see no point in dany trying to conquer a city that doesn't want to be conquered.

[Lady Noble]

I always found Essos more appealing than Westeros. Not the cities she's in exactly, but Volantis, Shadow Land, Quath, etc. They just seem more magical whereas Westeros seems well... Westernized. The cities she's in, however, have NO appeal to me.

[House_Tony_Stark]

I think Danny is rushing into battle and not actually building a viable amount of support.

I would gather intelligence first and find out about the situation in the North, Vale, Riverlands, and Iron Islands. First I would say Marry Jon Snow and promise that you will support him against the White Walkers when the time comes. Conquer the Riverlands which should have very little resistance and make that my base of operations and supply center. Conquer the Iron Islands to gain control of the sea's and cut off Kings Landing from naval reinforcements. Then launch a three way assault on Casterly Rock (by water, from the Riverlands, and from the reach. Then I would make Tyrion the Lord of Casterly Rock, and then set my eyes on the Stormlands and place someone as the new ruler of Storms End.

By this point in time I would have a large amount of support from most of the continent before assaulting Kings Landing and they would probably just dispose of Cercei and surrender the throne. Then it would be time to rally my forces and begin fortifications in the North.

I think Danny is going to get more of a fight than she is expecting if she just sails straight to Kings Landing.

[MoreOrLess]

Admittedly we haven't seen a great deal of them but the overall impression I get is that the slave culture in the free cities isn't as extreme as it is in slavers bay and so less ripe for revolution.