Baratheons are quite unsympathetic really

[BricksAndSparrows]

25 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Sure 300 years ago.

Now I can't argue with that. Times really have changed over the passed 300 years.

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You don't know that. Heck we don't know how he treated her and if she had any freedom and you forget that you are talking about an adult.

And you don't know how Aegon would react.

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Really? There are all over TWOIAF examples of a child to be raised from the people who have killed their parents and use them and grew up loving them? That’s very interesting. Where exactly are there? Can you name any character like that?

There are examples of people making a peace with one another after they killed a member of the other persons family. Yes there are. And when did I say that Robert should "Use" Aegon? If you had a valid argument, you wouldn't need to twist my words.

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Not really I have examples both from real life and from GRRTH

You have examples that are similar, but they don't fit exactly. No more than mine. You think Ned taking Theon hostage is a valid example which you can compare to the murder of two children. Only an idiot would see a comparison between these two things. Yet you're completely lost when I give you an example of Orys and Argella.

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Also I find the fact that you don't answer to my questions quite funny. To quote myself;

Yes! Killing children is wrong.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

11 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

There are examples of people making a peace with one another after they killed a member of the other persons family. Yes there are. And when did I say that Robert should "Use" Aegon? If you had a valid argument, you wouldn't need to twist my words.

Really? Show me an example of a child who was raised by those who killed his family and he was ok with it.

11 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

You think Ned taking Theon hostage is a valid example which you can compare to the murder of two children

Theon was a child too and as I said Aegon and Rhaenys could had been killed after their 16th birthday. Something that you forget.

11 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Yet you're completely lost when I give you an example of Orys and Argella.

I can this example bs because Argella was an adult, as you seem to forget, and we don't know what kind of relationship they had. So, I would trust the example about two children that the example about on children and one adult.

11 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

There are examples of people making a peace with one another after they killed a member of the other persons family. Yes there are. And when did I say that Robert should "Use" Aegon? If you had a valid argument, you wouldn't need to twist my words.

What do you think that a Regent does? Used the power of the child for whatever he wants to do and the child has no right to do anything. 

11 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

And you don't know how Aegon would react.

I have common sense and anyone could tell you that a child would had hated the man who killed his family.

11 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Yes! Killing children is wrong.

Do you believe that Dany has to be punished for what she did to those 12 years old maybe even younger?

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

7 hours ago, The Wolves said:

But he did stand over their dead bodies and dehumanize them and basically was happy that they were dead. Then he put a hit out on a 13-14yr old and her unborn baby. 

No Robert didn't kill any children but his interactions with the Targ children does not put him in any favorable light. 

What he did was responding "i do not see babes, i only see dragonspawn" to Ned... he didn't spit on the corpses or laugh at them... what he does after, like not provoking a war with tywin actually saved more children... even today people justify bombing places when it actually kills children and i don´t see those random folks on trial... speaking isn´t a crime now or in medieval times, jon snow wishes death and ruin to all lannisters (including the kids) and i still find him a good guy

about saving more children, the hit on dany was actually preventing that since more than 1, 10 or 200 children would die if the dothraki invaded with the help of targ loyals, a king has a council and he follows it

mind you, i don´t consider him an angel, just normal... like most of us

 

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

6 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

This is true. We know he did not order the deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys. But he approved of them, and he did order the death of Dany and her baby.

Funny enough, I disagree with the main proposal of this thread. I think he is a character with which you can sympathize; Stannis too.

 

We actually read Jon wishing death to all lannisters (tommen and myrcella included)... i don´t sweat it with him nor Robert, they didn´t do it, nor could they, at least tywin thinks so about Robert

The hit on Dany prevents the death of thousands more children, wich would happen if the dothraki invaded with the support of targ loyalist, by the time they could be dealt with a lot more children than dany would be killed or worse... when you have to decide, then those thousands of kids are at your hands as much as dany, hard being Neddish in this choice imo

agree on the proposal, easy to sympathize and to hate it seems... good writing after all

[The Wolves]

50 minutes ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

What he did was responding "i do not see babes, i only see dragonspawn" to Ned... he didn't spit on the corpses or laugh at them... what he does after, like not provoking a war with tywin actually saved more children... even today people justify bombing places when it actually kills children and i don´t see those random folks on trial... speaking isn´t a crime now or in medieval times, jon snow wishes death and ruin to all lannisters (including the kids) and i still find him a good guy

about saving more children, the hit on dany was actually preventing that since more than 1, 10 or 200 children would die if the dothraki invaded with the help of targ loyals, a king has a council and he follows it

mind you, i don´t consider him an angel, just normal... like most of us

 

What Robert did by not going after Tywin was approve of the innocent murder of children and fail as a king. He stood over two dead innocent children/human beings and did not act like a normal human being but made them less than human by calling them "dragonspawn" then rewarded their murderers. And when I heard that about Robert he became non sympathetic to me and I will never feel sympathy for someone who would okay(which he did by not punishing Tywin, Gregor, and Amory and rewarding Tywin) the rape and murder of innocents because he's a weak piece of shit. 

Please stop using the Starks to compare characters and to put them in a better light. The Jon we know would never stand over any dead Lannister children and say some cruel shit like Robert did. 

And Robert did not care about saving any children if he did he wouldn't have taken the throne anyway. 

[Lion of the West]

4 hours ago, The Wolves said:

What Robert did by not going after Tywin was approve of the innocent murder of children and fail as a king. He stood over two dead innocent children/human beings and did not act like a normal human being but made them less than human by calling them "dragonspawn" then rewarded their murderers. And when I heard that about Robert he became non sympathetic to me and I will never feel sympathy for someone who would okay(which he did by not punishing Tywin, Gregor, and Amory and rewarding Tywin) the rape and murder of innocents because he's a weak piece of shit. 

Please stop using the Starks to compare characters and to put them in a better light. The Jon we know would never stand over any dead Lannister children and say some cruel shit like Robert did. 

And Robert did not care about saving any children if he did he wouldn't have taken the throne anyway. 

Can I take that as a confirmation that you will consider the potential murder of Tommen, Myrcella, the children Freys and Roose's child with Walda as just as bad as the killing of the Targ kids? After all, innocent children are innocent children, right?

[The Wolves]

35 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Can I take that as a confirmation that you will consider the potential murder of Tommen, Myrcella, the children Freys and Roose's child with Walda as just as bad as the killing of the Targ kids? After all, innocent children are innocent children, right?

They are innocent children but unlike the Targ children I just don't give a feck if any innocent Lannister, Frey, or Bolton kid dies ~Kanye shrug~ Targs matter the other ones don't. 

[Lion of the West]

33 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

They are innocent children but unlike the Targ children I just don't give a feck if any innocent Lannister, Frey, or Bolton kid dies ~Kanye shrug~ Targs matter the other ones don't. 

Can I take it as an admission that you are a self-righteous hypocrit? Because I understand that you make a show of morale outrage for lots of things, but when it comes down to it I have noticed that you have no serious morale committment to just about any issue you hold an outrage over. You just seem to hold outrages when it can be used to attack people that you dislike for other reasons.

[Wall Flower]

Personally, I'd prefer that no kids had to die - I even felt a bit bad about Joff when I remembered that he was only 13.

I do agree with the Wolves that Robert's reaction to the little bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon was pretty unpleasant and doesn't do anything to make him sympathetic. At the very least, there should have been some investigation of the murders and punishment of the direct perpetrators, Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch. Instead they were left free to continue their murderous careers in Tywin's service, at great cost to many innocents. Robert's rule showed it's weakness and moral cowardice from the very beginning.

 

[The Wolves]

2 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Can I take it as an admission that you are a self-righteous hypocrit? Because I understand that you make a show of morale outrage for lots of things, but when it comes down to it I have noticed that you have no serious morale committment to just about any issue you hold an outrage over. You just seem to hold outrages when it can be used to attack people that you dislike for other reasons.

If you want, take it however. I don't care. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

55 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

 

Personally, I'd prefer that no kids had to die - I even felt a bit bad about Joff when I remembered that he was only 13.

 

Nah fuck that kid.

 

1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

I do agree with the Wolves that Robert's reaction to the little bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon was pretty unpleasant and doesn't do anything to make him sympathetic. At the very least, there should have been some investigation of the murders and punishment of the direct perpetrators, Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch. Instead they were left free to continue their murderous careers in Tywin's service, at great cost to many innocents. Robert's rule showed it's weakness and moral cowardice from the very beginning.

I don't know. I agree it doesn't show him in the best light, but from a pragmatic perspective Robert played a bit of a blinder here. Ironically, Robert's moral ambiguity and hypocrisy actually makes him a better politician than Ned. Look at Ned's solutions to these issues- he wanted to send Jaime to the Wall for killing the king, and punish the Mountain and Lorch (and possibly Tywin) for the murder of the children. This would have brought the rebels into immediate conflict (potentially war) with the Westerlands over the deaths of people who had to die anyway in order to secure Robert's throne. Robert's solution, to turn a blind eye and do a few ethical somersaults, meant he ended up with a much more stable throne, brought the West into the fold, and at the same time laid the lion's share (pun very much intended) of the blame on the Lannisters for the most famous atrocities of the rebellion.

On the more general issue of Robert's character- Is overlooking and defending the murder of children bad on a moral level? Of course. Is it as bad as actually killing them? Of course not. Robert is quite clearly a contradictory character. Tywin recognises this - Robert knew the kids had to die, but didn't want to do it. Whether he would have ended up doing it, we don't know, because to curry favour Tywin took that decision away from him, and Robert was grateful for that. That's the point. We get a lot of hints about this aspect of Robert in the series. I don't think he's morally opposed to doing brutal things, but he shies away from doing them. Either because he's squeamish, worried about his reputation, or maybe actually has some small part of him that still has honour.   

 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

2 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Can I take it as an admission that you are a self-righteous hypocrit?

Everybody be friends. 

[Protagoras]

20 hours ago, John Doe said:

Aerys broke the oath, not Robert. Besides what should he have done after the babies were killed? Punish the most powerful house remaining in the seven kingdoms? Make baby Dany queen?

What do you mean?

Sorry, misspelling - Bet, not bit. Irl I would put down real money on this. Can you say the same?

[John Doe]

1 hour ago, Protagoras said:

Sorry, misspelling - Bet, not bit. Irl I would put down real money on this. Can you say the same?

Nope.  I'm not100% certain anyone will survive Martin's story. However I don't think the Baratheons are less likely to survive than the Targaryens, Arryns, or the main branches of the Lannisters, Martells and Tyrells. So if I have to make a call I'd say they survive. 

[Lion of the West]

4 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Everybody be friends. 

Yes, I suppose we should.

[Batbob45]

Shireen is truly the only really sympathetic trueborn Baratheon. she not an elitist like her mom. Shireen is legitimately nice to  wildlings,  get along with  bastards and giants. She might even be able to get along with Ghost if she ever met the wolf.

[Valens]

On 19.8.2016 at 2:24 AM, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

We actually read Jon wishing death to all lannisters (tommen and myrcella included)... i don´t sweat it with him nor Robert, they didn´t do it, nor could they, at least tywin thinks so about Robert

The hit on Dany prevents the death of thousands more children, wich would happen if the dothraki invaded with the support of targ loyalist, by the time they could be dealt with a lot more children than dany would be killed or worse... when you have to decide, then those thousands of kids are at your hands as much as dany, hard being Neddish in this choice imo

agree on the proposal, easy to sympathize and to hate it seems... good writing after all

Neither Aerys nor Rhaegar ever killed a Baratheon. On the contrary, Aerys wept when Steffon died. After all, they were related. He even accused Tywin of orchestrating his drowning. Lannisters on the other hand were responsible for the deaths of Ned, Cat and Rob. Well, Cat and Rob were killed by Freys but Jaime did wish them dead when he told Roose "give Rob Stark my regards!"