A Timeframe of Ice and Fire: Two Books, Too Many Upcoming Conflicts Left To Go

[T and A]

6 hours ago, The Egg said:

Honestly, do you really think GRRM knows how the story ends? I mean, he started writing A Game of Thrones with Jaime as The Very Bad Guy (we know this from the "plot" he gave himself, sure, but he's exactly that character at the beginning of AGOT, so he might very well have changed his mind while he was already quite far with writing) and we end up with him being the savior of King's Landing and one of the wisest people in Westeros just three or four years later. So how can you be sure that the ending he thought of in 2011 is the same he's thinking of now and the same he'll get to at the end of A Dream of Spring?
Sure, HBO has kept contact with him as far as they could and they still do, and for sure they asked as many details as possible, but... it's a TV series, and they didn't even know at the beginning if they were going to have two seasons, let alone get to the end of seven books. Actually, until the fourth season, they always renewed the series one year after the other, halfway through the previous one, so how to deal with the story was totally D&D business, so I don't think HBO really cared about the story ending. As you said, they knew they would've to make major changes to adapt the story, and that applies to the first five books already, without taking into consideration any not yet published book, so even if they end up differently (and again, when they signed the contract they didn't know if they were going to reach the end) I don't HBO could care less, especially now that the show will end years before the books, and so the comparison will only be possible half a decade later. And for sure they have no right nor possibility to force Martin to stick to the show ending if he wants to change it in the books.

I pray to the lord of light that GRRM knows where the story ends by now. If not, we are screwed.

I tried to explain myself, and maybe I did not made that clear enough. If not, I apologize. What I mean is, that Benioff and Wise (I meant them when I was referring to HBO) know exactly where the story will go, and how it will end. They know the overall plot, or the general storyline, if you will. But of course, since the books are not done yet, they don't know the exact path between two given points, not to mention the dialogs. So they will have to fill these paths by themself. But they know where the path has to lead.

And of course I take it for granted that GRRM does not change the plot completely in the meantime. And for the sake of us readers, I hope he does not. Otherwise, the only solution that we are gonna see to this beautifull story will be the Show Version. And that would be tragic, although I love the show. But he has actually said in many Interviews, that he knows the endgame of the main POV's, although not that of all the minor characters. And at this point, you just have to believe him. If not, well then, every discussion is obsolete I am afraid.

[rotting sea cow]

On 2/6/2017 at 2:31 PM, The Egg said:

Honestly, do you really think GRRM knows how the story ends? I mean, he started writing A Game of Thrones with Jaime as The Very Bad Guy

I'm pretty sure that at the time he wrote ACOK, he knew the whole direction of the plot, even if he didn't know all the steps.

Anyway. It just came to my mind that it is still possible that GRRM finishes the series in two more books. I've argued the opposite in other threads, so let's me explain and you are free to disagree. 

Next book is called "The Winds of Winter". OK winter is here at the end of ADWD, but we are far away from seeing the Wall falling. First we need to see many cliffhanging plots from Feast&Dance resolved. This can consume half of the book easily, if not more (3/4?), then the characters start to align their positions (Dany starts marching west, Arya is back in Westeros, Aegon is in power, etc. ), other conflicts arise but they became moot once the Wall fall towards the end of the book, possibly in the epilogue.

The following book is named "A Dream of Spring", supposedly the final book. Notice, a dream of spring. Again a dream. After resolving some plots left from TWOW, e.g. Dany vs Aegon vs Euron, etc. It will be mostly the fight for the survival of humanity. A cold apocalypse, spiced with a shitload of other problems. But we won't see the end of it. We will be given enough information to understand that humanity will prevail, but not exactly how. We will be also given enough information so we can guess what will happen to Westeros afterwards. Basically a relatively open end and so we will have some fun discussions here or elsewhere.

I think this is achievable if there are some jumps in the timeline, if a good number of PoVs die, if characters reach the end of their development and certain thematic (either existential, politic, philosophical, cultural, etc) are streamlined. The last is what I'd fear the most.

@Lord Varys, @Free Northman Reborn I'd like to read your opinions

 

[Lord Varys]

I don't want such an ending, so I hope is not going to go down that path. However, if there is going to be another book after ADoS I'd hope he is going to call in 'The Song of Ice and Fire' at least if it is final volume with the grand finale. The war against the Others most likely will be the Song of Ice and Fire.

I'm also not sure about the death of many POVs. I could see Selmy, Connington, Victarion, Aeron, Theon or Asha to die in somewhere down the road but I don't see secondary characters like Davos, Samwell, Jaime, Cersei, Brienne, Arianne, and Melisandre as character that will die soon. Many or even all of them could live until the grand finale (or even survive it), not to mention the main characters (Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Bran, Arya, Sansa). The chances that the number of POVs are going to be reduced soon is not very likely in my opinion.

[Whitering]

Brienne could die at any time, she's in a very high risk area; for her to be immune to the vagaries of adventure would be plot armor of the highest caliber.

Cersei will die at some point, though perhaps not in the next book, besides prophecy she continues to make enemy after enemy, and while we can "hope" she has recovered from her alcoholism after her period of incarceration she was in the process of making herself unattractive; her greatest asset as LF noted.

Theon being burned by Stannis wouldn't be outside the realm of reason at this point.

Asha will be in and around the Battle of Ice, if she were to be captured by Ramsay, if he wins, she would be roasted over an open flame or just outright fed to his dogs.

The others I can agree with, their situations being less precarious. Val could kill Mel though, but Mel has much to do. I don't think any other Wildling would at this point, but it seems clear to me that Val is a priestess or some such and has special status.

Still, I think one or two from your list of unlikelies will die in the next book or early book 7.

[rotting sea cow]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't want such an ending, so I hope is not going to go down that path. However, if there is going to be another book after ADoS I'd hope he is going to call in 'The Song of Ice and Fire' at least if it is final volume with the grand finale. The war against the Others most likely will be the Song of Ice and Fire.

The idea came to my mind after reading that ASOIAF is not LOTR, rather the opposite. Under this scenario, GRRM may have left us with Frodo scaling Mount Doom and Aragorn preparing for battle. It may also be that I'm giving hope to myself

So, what I'm proposing is that ADoS will be mostly the battle against the Others, with humanity seemingly losing it, until the final chapters where we know the tide will turn.

Another book, written from someone's perspective years after the main conflict, would be a nice addition.

My main fear under this scenario, is that, contrary to ADWD, TWOW and ADOS will be more focused in the resolution of the main plot, skipping many steps (maybe too many) like Dany's march of conquest through Essos, Aegon's governance of the realm. etc and also skipping additional thematics.

 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm also not sure about the death of many POVs. I could see Selmy, Connington, Victarion, Aeron, Theon or Asha to die in somewhere down the road but I don't see secondary characters like Davos, Samwell, Jaime, Cersei, Brienne, Arianne, and Melisandre as character that will die soon. Many or even all of them could live until the grand finale (or even survive it), not to mention the main characters (Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Bran, Arya, Sansa). The chances that the number of POVs are going to be reduced soon is not very likely in my opinion.

Victarion and Aeron have a few chapters left, same with Areo. Barristan may die soon. JonCon needs to stick a bit longer, but probably not beyond the end of twow. Theon may die at the tree in the next chapter, but I've the feeling he will be important in bringing down Euron. Asha will probably stick to the end (or not).

I don't think Mel will have many chapters, maybe just another one, so she won't use much narrative space.

 

[The Egg]

On 2/6/2017 at 7:47 PM, T and A said:

I pray to the lord of light that GRRM knows where the story ends by now. If not, we are screwed.

I tried to explain myself, and maybe I did not made that clear enough. If not, I apologize. What I mean is, that Benioff and Wise (I meant them when I was referring to HBO) know exactly where the story will go, and how it will end. They know the overall plot, or the general storyline, if you will. But of course, since the books are not done yet, they don't know the exact path between two given points, not to mention the dialogs. So they will have to fill these paths by themself. But they know where the path has to lead.

And of course I take it for granted that GRRM does not change the plot completely in the meantime. And for the sake of us readers, I hope he does not. Otherwise, the only solution that we are gonna see to this beautifull story will be the Show Version. And that would be tragic, although I love the show. But he has actually said in many Interviews, that he knows the endgame of the main POV's, although not that of all the minor characters. And at this point, you just have to believe him. If not, well then, every discussion is obsolete I am afraid.

I don't know if that's what's happening, but I'm just saying we can't be sure 2011 prospected ending is going to be 2025 actual ending. In more than a decade so much can happen, and although I'm sure he thinks he knows the ending, I'm not sure that will be the ending.

I don't hope for one or the other. I only hope he can make two awesome books. And I accept that he might not know what he says.

14 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I'm pretty sure that at the time he wrote ACOK, he knew the whole direction of the plot, even if he didn't know all the steps.

Anyway. It just came to my mind that it is still possible that GRRM finishes the series in two more books. I've argued the opposite in other threads, so let's me explain and you are free to disagree. 

Next book is called "The Winds of Winter". OK winter is here at the end of ADWD, but we are far away from seeing the Wall falling. First we need to see many cliffhanging plots from Feast&Dance resolved. This can consume half of the book easily, if not more (3/4?), then the characters start to align their positions (Dany starts marching west, Arya is back in Westeros, Aegon is in power, etc. ), other conflicts arise but they became moot once the Wall fall towards the end of the book, possibly in the epilogue.

The following book is named "A Dream of Spring", supposedly the final book. Notice, a dream of spring. Again a dream. After resolving some plots left from TWOW, e.g. Dany vs Aegon vs Euron, etc. It will be mostly the fight for the survival of humanity. A cold apocalypse, spiced with a shitload of other problems. But we won't see the end of it. We will be given enough information to understand that humanity will prevail, but not exactly how. We will be also given enough information so we can guess what will happen to Westeros afterwards. Basically a relatively open end and so we will have some fun discussions here or elsewhere.

I think this is achievable if there are some jumps in the timeline, if a good number of PoVs die, if characters reach the end of their development and certain thematic (either existential, politic, philosophical, cultural, etc) are streamlined. The last is what I'd fear the most.

@Lord Varys, @Free Northman Reborn I'd like to read your opinions

 

Honestly the name "A Dream of Spring" has always made me think the ending will be just after the peak of winter, when the battle for humanity is won (because had it been lost, there'd be nobody to dream of spring) but with everyone still well frozen and starving. I can definitely see a humanity that wins the battle against the others after unifying Westeros for the fight (sweet), but after the fight they're so worn out, so out of food and strength and wood to burn that thousands more will die without seeing the end of the winter, and the book ends with a main characters dreaming of a warm spring while they freeze to death (bitter).

Theories aside, I don't think we'll see spring at all. We might see a small sign of it, like the first sunrise after months of arctic night, but A Dream of Spring means we'll never make it to it.

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, Whitering said:

Brienne could die at any time, she's in a very high risk area; for her to be immune to the vagaries of adventure would be plot armor of the highest caliber.

Sure, she could. But I think there are hints she has a role to play in the fight against the Others. That doesn't work if she does not live to play such a role.

10 hours ago, Whitering said:

Cersei will die at some point, though perhaps not in the next book, besides prophecy she continues to make enemy after enemy, and while we can "hope" she has recovered from her alcoholism after her period of incarceration she was in the process of making herself unattractive; her greatest asset as LF noted.

Cersei seems to be set up to play some important role in the next section of the story. She could die before the Others strike, but she could also survive the entire fight and pull off some sort of Saruman-like move at the very end of the story. The same could go for Littlefinger as an opponent. I certainly don't expect her to die soon since both Tommen and Myrcella are still alive and there is a pretty good chance she is going to do some stuff even after they are dead.

10 hours ago, Whitering said:

Theon being burned by Stannis wouldn't be outside the realm of reason at this point.

It has become unlikely since George mentioned quite some time ago that he was recently working on another Theon chapters, indicating that there is at least a Theon 2. But we should expect that the weirwood tree situation in Stannis' camp would have been resolved in Asha 1. We won't get two Theon chapters in a row, George would like switch back and forth between POVs at the same location as he did in AGoT to keep things interesting.

10 hours ago, Whitering said:

Asha will be in and around the Battle of Ice, if she were to be captured by Ramsay, if he wins, she would be roasted over an open flame or just outright fed to his dogs.

It is not likely that the Boltons are going to win - but even if they did, Asha could still get away. But I'm agreeing with you that we don't need two Greyjoy POVs at the same place. If Asha and Theon both remain with Stannis (or together) then one of them could very well die.

10 hours ago, Whitering said:

The others I can agree with, their situations being less precarious. Val could kill Mel though, but Mel has much to do. I don't think any other Wildling would at this point, but it seems clear to me that Val is a priestess or some such and has special status.

It is much more likely that Melisandre would burn or kill Val than it is the other way around. Mel can foresee dangers to herself. Nothing suggests Val can do the same thing. And Mel has clearly become a very important character now that she has a POV. There is a reason for that, and it wasn't to give us one chapter from her POV that could have worked also from Jon's POV.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

The idea came to my mind after reading that ASOIAF is not LOTR, rather the opposite. Under this scenario, GRRM may have left us with Frodo scaling Mount Doom and Aragorn preparing for battle. It may also be that I'm giving hope to myself

So, what I'm proposing is that ADoS will be mostly the battle against the Others, with humanity seemingly losing it, until the final chapters where we know the tide will turn.

Another book, written from someone's perspective years after the main conflict, would be a nice addition.

My main fear under this scenario, is that, contrary to ADWD, TWOW and ADOS will be more focused in the resolution of the main plot, skipping many steps (maybe too many) like Dany's march of conquest through Essos, Aegon's governance of the realm. etc and also skipping additional thematics.

I don't see an ending of that sort. There has to be quite a few hundred pages to wrap everything up, to give us at least a feeling for closure. The action didn't really begin on page one, so George has to take his time ending this story. Man, I found AGoT boring as hell for the most part of the first book because I wanted to read fantasy, not medieval politics.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Victarion and Aeron have a few chapters left, same with Areo.

Vic could die in battle. Aeron could survive. If he does, he is not likely to die soon. No idea where Areo's story is going but since George has made it clear that he is still there I doubt he'll die at High Hermitage.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Barristan may die soon.

He could die. He is old, and lives around a plague that is very infectious. But I expect him to at least stick around long enough to tell stuff to Tyrion.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

JonCon needs to stick a bit longer, but probably not beyond the end of twow.

Yeah, but with Arianne there we don't need him for the fight against the Others or even the clash between Aegon and Daenerys. In fact, his influence could very well prevent a Second Dance so he most likely has to go eventually.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Theon may die at the tree in the next chapter, but I've the feeling he will be important in bringing down Euron.

He won't be sacrificed. At least not early on in the next book. See above.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

I don't think Mel will have many chapters, maybe just another one, so she won't use much narrative space

Then there was no point in introducing her as a POV at all. She might not survive the series or the fall of the Wall but she should become very important in the next book.

[rotting sea cow]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't see an ending of that sort. There has to be quite a few hundred pages to wrap everything up, to give us at least a feeling for closure. The action didn't really begin on page one, so George has to take his time ending this story. Man, I found AGoT boring as hell for the most part of the first book because I wanted to read fantasy, not medieval politics.

I mean, I'm not sure that it's possible to "simplify" the story that much to make an end in two more books. I've argued the opposite in other threads. I think, however, that is possible that GRRM leaves some threads open (or many of them), subject to interpretation instead of giving us the complete "packaged" picture. He has explicitly criticized this in regards of LOTR, where "everything" is available to the reader. So, I could see the end of the story in the middle of winter, leaving us with enough information to fill the dots.

What I fear, however, is not that. I'd really hate that he hastens to make an end to the hanging plots and thematics in order to finish the series. So, whilst I now think it's possible to have only two more books, I see it also as a very risky road, specially after the richness of ADWD, which could make the last two books comparatively unsatisfying.

Now, looking to the released chapters. GRRM is taking a lot of time in describing some particular events. Five chapters in Meeren, two chapters in Arianne's march, etc. I know, they are ADWD leftover chapters, but I'd prefer them that way instead of an fake speed up.

 

[Lord Varys]

21 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

I mean, I'm not sure that it's possible to "simplify" the story that much to make an end in two more books. I've argued the opposite in other threads. I think, however, that is possible that GRRM leaves some threads open (or many of them), subject to interpretation instead of giving us the complete "packaged" picture. He has explicitly criticized this in regards of LOTR, where "everything" is available to the reader. So, I could see the end of the story in the middle of winter, leaving us with enough information to fill the dots.

That would still mean there is no proper ending. This story is not just about the Others (in fact, we are still waiting that it actually is about the Others) and thus we cannot expect it to end after Dark Lord has been destroyed. George may end the overall without some 'and they lived happily ever after' ending but he cannot close the story with some sort of nasty cliffhanger. That wouldn't be an ending at all.

And if you write a novel or a series of novels and introduce a lot of subplots and myseries your are honor-bound to resolve them all. Anything else would be either cheating or bad writing.

21 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

What I fear, however, is not that. I'd really hate that he hastens to make an end to the hanging plots and thematics in order to finish the series. So, whilst I now think it's possible to have only two more books, I see it also as a very risky road, specially after the richness of ADWD, which could make the last two books comparatively unsatisfying.

That is not going to happen. He cannot see the end as of yet and he is certainly not rushing towards it. If that had been the case he would have scrapped the entire Dorne, Euron, and Aegon plots while writing AFfC/ADwD and would have had the Others attack the Wall back then.

21 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Now, looking to the released chapters. GRRM is taking a lot of time in describing some particular events. Five chapters in Meeren, two chapters in Arianne's march, etc. I know, they are ADWD leftover chapters, but I'd prefer them that way instead of an fake speed up.

Indeed. And while the battle at Storm's End was supposed to happen offscreen back when the Arianne chapters were supposed to be in ADwD George has already stated that he has written another Connington chapter covering that. The story still grows in the telling, and it is good that it does.

The plots George has been introducing in the last two books actually look way too promising to see him rush to the ending. 

[Whitering]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Then there was no point in introducing her as a POV at all. She might not survive the series or the fall of the Wall but she should become very important in the next book.

I disagree that we didn't need a chapter, it clarified her character, and that was one of the biggest mysteries about her person that was unlikely to be cleared up by the many characters that outright distrust her. She believes what she is doing is right, she is truly a priestess of R'hllor, she guesses at answers and she manipulates people in a variety of ways. What I agree with is we likely don't need another chapter, but she is the only PoV at the Wall right now.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Whitering said:

I disagree that we didn't need a chapter, it clarified her character, and that was one of the biggest mysteries about her person that was unlikely to be cleared up by the many characters that outright distrust her. She believes what she is doing is right, she is truly a priestess of R'hllor, she guesses at answers and she manipulates people in a variety of ways. What I agree with is we likely don't need another chapter, but she is the only PoV at the Wall right now.

Well, nobody in the books actually seemed to believe Mel was a fraud or not believing in what she's preaching. That a lot of readers thought she had another agenda is separate from that and actually no reason to give a chapter. I agree that it was nice to get her POV. But what I meant about that chapter is that the events depicted therein could easily enough have been shown from Jon's POV. She could have told Jon about her visions. We could have gotten Jon's thoughts when he realized Rattleshirt was Mance, and so on.

One would assume that a Melisandre chapter would have given us more insight into her past and abilities.

[Whitering]

Revealing her true self to Jon would have been way out of character for her, for the sake of the plot, the thing most of us hate about many other writers.

We did get insight into some of her abilities, she uses powders mostly for show, to make things flashy, but the actual power comes from her, she's stronger at the wall, she doesn't eat or sleep, she doesn't get cold and actually melts the Wall. This led me to postulate that she was a better maintained version of Beric, guessing that the actual high level priests go through a dying and rebirth ceremony that would very nicely mirror the Ironborn, because Moqorro survives for ten days at sea floating on a piece of wood, any human would die after two or three days. That's what cemented them in my mind. Elio thinks they are something else, other than Bericed, but I don't see how or why the story would require that.

All of that clarification from her chapter, and her explaining all of that to Jon would have made me put the book down lol

[rotting sea cow]

3 hours ago, Whitering said:

We did get insight into some of her abilities, she uses powders mostly for show, to make things flashy, but the actual power comes from her, she's stronger at the wall, she doesn't eat or sleep, she doesn't get cold and actually melts the Wall. This led me to postulate that she was a better maintained version of Beric, guessing that the actual high level priests go through a dying and rebirth ceremony that would very nicely mirror the Ironborn, because Moqorro survives for ten days at sea floating on a piece of wood, any human would die after two or three days. That's what cemented them in my mind. Elio thinks they are something else, other than Bericed, but I don't see how or why the story would require that.

This is an interesting take on Melisandre. It also fits that her memories about her origin are somewhat blurred.

[Lord Varys]

On 10.2.2017 at 7:56 PM, Whitering said:

Revealing her true self to Jon would have been way out of character for her, for the sake of the plot, the thing most of us hate about many other writers.

We did get insight into some of her abilities, she uses powders mostly for show, to make things flashy, but the actual power comes from her, she's stronger at the wall, she doesn't eat or sleep, she doesn't get cold and actually melts the Wall.

We actually knew all that before. Mel was using her powders back in ASoS, Mel was always unnaturally hot. And she still drinks and sleeps, though, although not that much. The idea that she isn't really 'completely human' isn't a new idea nor was a chapter necessary to reveal that.

On 10.2.2017 at 7:56 PM, Whitering said:

This led me to postulate that she was a better maintained version of Beric, guessing that the actual high level priests go through a dying and rebirth ceremony that would very nicely mirror the Ironborn, because Moqorro survives for ten days at sea floating on a piece of wood, any human would die after two or three days. That's what cemented them in my mind. Elio thinks they are something else, other than Bericed, but I don't see how or why the story would require that.

When Mel remembers her past as the enslaved girl Melony she seems to remember some sort of pain deep with in her, pain associated to the magical fire within her. I'm more inclined that she was forced to drink down some magical liquid fire potion or go through some other fire magic ritual rather than actually being killed and resurrected. Thoros has no special high level red priest knowledge, yet he still can resurrect Beric Dondarrion repeatedly.

On 10.2.2017 at 7:56 PM, Whitering said:

All of that clarification from her chapter, and her explaining all of that to Jon would have made me put the book down lol

There were some little gems in the chapter, like her admitting that she was fucking Stannis on a regular basis or that she actually cared for Davos and Devan up to a point. But the chapter was completely devoid of the revelations one could expect in a Melisandre chapter, not to mention that the events happening in there (the finding of the eyeless skulls and the Mance business) could have been much more effectively told from Jon's POV.

[BalerionTheCat]

I expect Aegon will gain quickly as much of Westeros as he could get. This would include KL. It could even be done with a few chapters and without much POV time (like in Arianne's chapters). I believe the death of Tommen will accelerate the disintegration of the Lannister - Tyrell alliance. I expect Tommen will die very soon in TWoW. Myrcella should be queen for some time. But I don't believe she, and maybe Cersei, will still be alive by the end of TWoW.

I don't think Daenerys can solve much in Slaver Bay, and slavery in general. Maybe her return will be forced by Moqorro and Victarion. Because they will be controlling her dragons and taking them to Westeros. But I believe, by some way, a stop by Volantis will happen. This is a strong place of the Red Priests. With a lot of slaves expecting her. And she could gain more ships and armies there. I don't think Daenerys will return to Westeros before the very end of TWoW. Maybe at the end.

[Whitering]

On 2/12/2017 at 1:49 PM, Lord Varys said:

When Mel remembers her past as the enslaved girl Melony she seems to remember some sort of pain deep with in her, pain associated to the magical fire within her. I'm more inclined that she was forced to drink down some magical liquid fire potion or go through some other fire magic ritual rather than actually being killed and resurrected. Thoros has no special high level red priest knowledge, yet he still can resurrect Beric Dondarrion repeatedly.

 

Beric knowing the burial rituals is in line with his being a priest. Moqorro and Mel obviously being something other than human brings a line of questions that leads to my theory, which is only a theory at this point. If you say that about Mel, then how do you explain Moqorro?

[aFeastForDragons]

Season 7's premier date just got announced and that feature completely new plots, stories and spoilers galore. The show revealing the next parts of the story has buried any chance of the next book coming out at this stage. 

[hwyl]

I have pretty much given up all hope. The story got tragically out of control, separate plotlines just multiplied like rabbits and now there is no way of tidying things up to a satisfactory ending within reasonable time and number of volumes. Echoes of Tolkien here: Leaf by Niggle, but Martin has a whole bloody forest to paint. But it was an amazingly great start.

[SuperMario]

We'll get TWOW sometime after the 8th and final season of the show, but that will be the last book we will see. He's stuck or lost interest. Wild Cards, the Hugos and Football dominate his focus. 

Additionally, there is too much to fit into just two more books, and he gardened way too much with the last two books that I fear it will only get worse with Winds onward. And because of that, the only end we'll see to this series will be on TV.

[shadows and dust]

21 hours ago, SuperMario said:

Additionally, there is too much to fit into just two more books, and he gardened way too much with the last two books that I fear it will only get worse with Winds onward.

There's too much if Danny returns to Westeros. If (f)Aegon has usurped her in GRRM's end-game as the 7K ruler it could still end in 2 books.

Winds - Clear up the North (humans), Whittle IT claimants down to Aegon vs Euron, Danny realizes Westeros is not her home.

Spring - Clear up the North (others), Aegon wins the IT, Danny breaks Volantis, is Queen of a slave-free Slaver's Bay. (dragons' bay?)