A Timeframe of Ice and Fire: Two Books, Too Many Upcoming Conflicts Left To Go

[Cas Stark]

29 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

But consulting on 5 different scripts and storylines with multiple meetings for every one of them equals a lot of time.

Yes, consulting takes a lot of time and energy, especially if he has to travel anywhere.  I mean, he wasn't going to write anything for the world book either.....but he ended up writing thousands of words...and logically speaking...it took up a lot of time.

[SuperMario]

Yep. Just read his own words from his blog post:

"Yes, I am involved, and have been for months. I had my first meeting with HBO about the possibility of a successor show back in August, when I pitched them two possible series."

"I've actually been working with all four of the writers. Every one of the four has visited me here in Santa Fe, some of them more than once, and we've spent days together discussing their ideas, the history of Westeros and the world beyond, and sundry details found only in The World of Ice & Fire and The Lands of Ice & Fire... when we weren't drinking margaritas and eating chile rellenos and visiting Meow Wolf. They are all amazing talents, and I am excited to be working with them. In between visits, I've been in touch with them by phone, text, and email, and I expect there will be a lot more back-and-forth as we move forward."

Reading that, he is heavily involved and has been for almost a year. And it sounds like it is consuming a lot of his time. And people wonder why Winds updates have been stagnant for more than a year?

[unitron]

 

I could see it taking another 5 books after ADWD to fully do justice to all of the storylines, and the prophecies to be fulfilled, and the mysteries to be revealed.

 

But GRRM getting them all written before one or both of us kicks the bucket?   That seems a lot less likely.

 

I mean, as of the latest notablog he's still writing Winds.  Still writing.  Not proofreading and going over it with his editors and getting it in shape for publication, but still writing it.

 

 

[Byfort of Corfe]

On Invalid Date at 2:43 PM, SuperMario said:

We'll get TWOW sometime after the 8th and final season of the show, but that will be the last book we will see. He's stuck or lost interest. Wild Cards, the Hugos and Football dominate his focus. 

Additionally, there is too much to fit into just two more books, and he gardened way too much with the last two books that I fear it will only get worse with Winds onward. And because of that, the only end we'll see to this series will be on TV.

I agree in large part with this.  Many of the released chapters so far show that, while the show is moving towards the stories conclusion by starting to bring storylines together, ASOIAF is still moving them apart.  For example if Littlefinger and Alayne/Sansa are going to play major parts in the conclusion they have to get out of the Vale and this whole storyline of politics in the Vale.  We have the whole coming War with the others to deal with.  But the books seem to have Dany dealing with the Slavers (and really, how realistic is it that she can "end" slavery?) but at some point Mysa has to leave her children if she intends on ruling in Westeros.  He has to settle Tyrion and Sansa's marital status otherwise this whole Sansa/Alayne story arc will just be a waste of ink.  And there's the whole is Aegon fake or not to settle as well.

I think that GRRM has realized that with his current story arcs and his level of detail in his writing that he isn't 2 books from the conclusion, he is more like 3 or 4.  Now the series has, especially in S6, moved these arcs along in some cases not very elegantly, but they have set the major characters in place to drive for the conclusion.  Short of having yet another Wedding Massacre (which I don't think that GRRM particularly wants to do) you're going to need a lot of ink to get from where we are to the end.  And in many ways I think it's the writer's equivalent to being painted into a corner.  I think the GRRM really wants to move on to other projects, I think that he is sick and tired of Euron and Victarion and Cersei and the High Sparrow and Jon and Sansa and Tyrion and Jaime and Sand Snakes and all the rest.  He wants to write about Dunc and Egg and other things.  And I can understand that.  And if GRRM were to announce tomorrow, "hey, sorry but I'm done" I would be okay with that.  Of course I can feel for people who don't have HBO but short of scrapping most of the storylines that we are pretty sure are in TWOW I really don't see Book 7 before 2025 and I'm not sure that it ends with Book 7. IIRC GRRM had originally intended that ASOIAF would be a 3 or 4 book series, his publishers wanted 7.  And I think that some of the elements added to the story in Books 4&5 have brought GRRM to this point. 

 

[weirwoodface]

5 hours ago, SuperMario said:

But consulting on 5 different scripts and storylines with multiple meetings for every one of them equals a lot of time.

Maybe -- now this might be too much to hope -- maybe TWOW is complete and in the can, but publication will not be announced until the finale of S7 of the show is finished airing.

A girl can dream, I guess...

[SuperMario]

9 minutes ago, weirwoodface said:

Maybe -- now this might be too much to hope -- maybe TWOW is complete and in the can, but publication will not be announced until the finale of S7 of the show is finished airing.

A girl can dream, I guess...

I like your optimism and maybe something will be announced after season 7 is done. However, if the book was finished, I think his publishers would want it announced and out there. Every delay, especially after more of the plot gets revealed via the show is money lost to them. And George has said in the past that when he’s finished, he will announce it and not coincide it with any other event or date. When it’s done it will be done, as he has stated.

[aFeastForDragons]

Didn't George also say he wasn't taking on anymore projects so he could concentrate fully on Winds………yeah he stuck to that plan.

[The Egg]

 

21 hours ago, aFeastForDragons said:

http://grrm.livejournal.com/536859.html

 

Well this just killed any chance of TWOW coming out this year. 2018 would be a stretch too. 

I honestly lost any hope to actually read it while he's alive. And I even lost interest in reading it, so I'll stick with the show and that's fine, he said those are two version of the same story, equally canon in their own universes, so I can have my own headcanon as it pleases myself.

 

19 hours ago, SuperMario said:

But consulting on 5 different scripts and storylines with multiple meetings for every one of them equals a lot of time.

An awful lot...

18 hours ago, SuperMario said:

Yep. Just read his own words from his blog post:

"Yes, I am involved, and have been for months. I had my first meeting with HBO about the possibility of a successor show back in August, when I pitched them two possible series."

"I've actually been working with all four of the writers. Every one of the four has visited me here in Santa Fe, some of them more than once, and we've spent days together discussing their ideas, the history of Westeros and the world beyond, and sundry details found only in The World of Ice & Fire and The Lands of Ice & Fire... when we weren't drinking margaritas and eating chile rellenos and visiting Meow Wolf. They are all amazing talents, and I am excited to be working with them. In between visits, I've been in touch with them by phone, text, and email, and I expect there will be a lot more back-and-forth as we move forward."

Reading that, he is heavily involved and has been for almost a year. And it sounds like it is consuming a lot of his time. And people wonder why Winds updates have been stagnant for more than a year?

...indeed.
And he didn't say the fifth writer is himself, which would put an end to every dream of a writing spring for TWOW, of course.

13 hours ago, weirwoodface said:

Maybe -- now this might be too much to hope -- maybe TWOW is complete and in the can, but publication will not be announced until the finale of S7 of the show is finished airing.

A girl can dream, I guess...

If he had stuck to the plan, starting to work on the prequels would mean he was already done with TWOW in August. There's just no way this is true, unfortunately...

 

The only positive thing I can get from this is that he wasn't writing TWOW anyway. I mean, we all knew that, he got tired of it. At least we'll have something to get high on while we wait for it, and maybe the renewed enthusiasm in Westeros might even make him work harder on TWOW.
So yeah, I'm ok with the guy writing whatever the fuck he wants, let him be happy and he'll write fast. He couldn't write slower, after all.

[Cas Stark]

On 7/25/2016 at 3:57 AM, Ser Ronan Storm said:

This is kind of a general predictions/discussion thread, but I'm more interested in how the factions in Westeros are able to accommodate so many chaotic events that are on the horizon, and which factions are able to realistically participate/impact the plot moving forward. We have Littlefinger's cryptic reference to the War of Three Queens. We have GRRM's promise of a Dance with Dragons 2.0 (which will presumably feature Dany vs. Aegon). We have Dany's inevitable, slow-as-a-crippled-snail invasion of Westeros (and she isn't even near a fleet right now). We have King Euron posed to be the biggest threat to Dany, and he is currently raiding/conquering the Reach. Presumably, we only have one book in which to contain all of this before Sweet Long Night of Death carries everyone kicking and screaming into that good night. Is it realistic that GRRM could include all of these conflicts in one volume? I suppose it really comes down to when the Others breach the Wall and just how quickly they are able to move south (if they even make it that far before Jon/Dany/Dragons/HOT PIE!/Bran stops them.

Assuming we can decipher what the conflicts will be, and who will feature prominently in them, can we chart the military action throughout Westeros during the next book or two? Currently only the Vale and Dorne have intact armies. Tyrell forces are split, Stormlands are split/spent, Lannisters are spent, though Westerlands may yield up a decent number of refreshments. I just want to see if we can guess the order in which all of these conflicts will occur, and how. Dany still seems to be a long way from Westeros, yet King Euron is close. Might he and Aegon war before Dany's ships even appear on the horizon? Will both survive to cause trouble for Dany? How can Cersei and the Tyrells hope to successfully deal with each other/High Sparrow/HOT PIE!/Aegon/Euron? It is hinted that Euron will definitely sit the Iron Throne, but how quickly? He is the Party Crasher That Was Promised. Will the North get a chance to participate in this hot Southern action, or will they be too busy trying to save life itself? Have fun discussing.

Based on the sample chapters and the things GRRM has said, no, I don't think he can wind the story down in 2 more books.  It will take 3 at least, and even that depends on how much he resolves in Winds, when it finally comes out.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

On 17.05.2017 at 11:02 AM, The Egg said:

And he didn't say the fifth writer is himself, which would put an end to every dream of a writing spring for TWOW, of course.

 

He did actually say that it isn't him:

"He's a really terrific addition, however, a great guy and a fine writer, and aside from me and maybe Elio and Linda, I don't know anyone who knows and loves Westeros as well as he does."
 

[The Egg]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

He did actually say that it isn't him:

"He's a really terrific addition, however, a great guy and a fine writer, and aside from me and maybe Elio and Linda, I don't know anyone who knows and loves Westeros as well as he does."
 

You're right. Oh, well, I wasn't expecting him to be, but there's no end to how many things he manages to put between himself and TWOW after all...

[Ninerings]

Ugh. I read and read this site; the debates, the crackpots, the Heresy, etc. Because I love the story. NOT the author. Not Wild Cards, not whatever stuff he has in the pipes. 

This guy got rich and famous not from some novella in the 70's, but ASOIF. This is what made it to HBO and what made a what - quarter? - of the world population fall in love with the story. 

The way he takes a snide attitude about people wanting more of what put him where he is is insulting in my opinion. The HBO show has basically taken a dump on his stories, but he is putting them ahead of the ONE THING that put him where he is. 

And I am sure there will be legions who say things like "he doesn't owe you anything", or "he isn't your bitch", etc. and the mods on here will throw themselves on a grenade before someone DARE say something bad about the mighty "GRRM". But I don't apologize. The man needs to either say he isn't doing it anymore, or put on his big boy pants and finish the job. People are so quick to kiss his ass and quote "respect", but watching time and time again different projects take the forefront -or even BE RELEASED- over the next chapter in the series that is what made the man his fortune and be able to hobnob with whoever is a slap in the face no matter how you slice it. 

[The Bear Who Knocks]

On 5/18/2017 at 8:11 PM, Ninerings said:

Ugh. I read and read this site; the debates, the crackpots, the Heresy, etc. Because I love the story. NOT the author. Not Wild Cards, not whatever stuff he has in the pipes. 

This guy got rich and famous not from some novella in the 70's, but ASOIF. This is what made it to HBO and what made a what - quarter? - of the world population fall in love with the story. 

The way he takes a snide attitude about people wanting more of what put him where he is is insulting in my opinion. The HBO show has basically taken a dump on his stories, but he is putting them ahead of the ONE THING that put him where he is. 

And I am sure there will be legions who say things like "he doesn't owe you anything", or "he isn't your bitch", etc. and the mods on here will throw themselves on a grenade before someone DARE say something bad about the mighty "GRRM". But I don't apologize. The man needs to either say he isn't doing it anymore, or put on his big boy pants and finish the job. People are so quick to kiss his ass and quote "respect", but watching time and time again different projects take the forefront -or even BE RELEASED- over the next chapter in the series that is what made the man his fortune and be able to hobnob with whoever is a slap in the face no matter how you slice it. 

Yeah its beyond a joke at this point over six years later and all we have to show for book 6 are chapters that got pushed out of adwd because they wouldn't fit posing as the next book's chapters.

[aFeastForDragons]

^And they could have been chapters that were penned as far back as AFFC's release. Its clear the man has very little interest to get the next book out. 

[Cas Stark]

I haven't done it in a long time, but my recollection is that some of the chapters....the only one that comes to mind is the Theon chapter....were written a LONG time ago, when GRRM was moving the story along fairly quickly....and then some seemed written later....like the Dorne chapters...where not much happens.  I do think though that all of them were written at the earliest circa Dance's publication.

[Rodx]

I know that Martin said that don't want but,I think maybe is better split the book in two depending on the situation ...

 

 

[SuperMario]

On Invalid Date at 1:57 PM, Cas Stark said:

I haven't done it in a long time, but my recollection is that some of the chapters....the only one that comes to mind is the Theon chapter....were written a LONG time ago, when GRRM was moving the story along fairly quickly....and then some seemed written later....like the Dorne chapters...where not much happens.  I do think though that all of them were written at the earliest circa Dance's publication.

Yep. Pretty crazy to think that Theon chapter could have been written maybe 15 years ago, and it still isn't in a published book.

[Ser Gareth]

On Invalid Date at 2:47 PM, aFeastForDragons said:

^And they could have been chapters that were penned as far back as AFFC's release. Its clear the man has very little interest to get the next book out. 

When the show started to reveal major spoilers for the books I was certain then we wouldn't see TWOW until a couple of years after the show had finished.

My logic behind this was pretty simple.

• GRRM has had much of his story spoiled.  He is a self proclaimed gardener (although the amount of foreshadowing in the books would contradict this statement) and I think he'll change a lot of his original ideas to ensure they aren't the same as the TV.
• Even though he has told D&D what the ending is, I think he'll change it.  But he wants to see what the TV show does first, to ensure its different.
• The supporting evidence for the above was his barely concealed anguish when the spoilers were happening, including him coming up with that great idea they couldn't do in the TV show.  So he'll try and force more and more new stuff into the books to compensate for the spoilers.

My personal belief is that we'll never see the end of the book series.  I am not even convinced we'll even get TWOW.  If I am right about the above then I think 2019/20 is the earliest we'll get it.

The fact is GRRM can write fast.  He proved that between ACOK and ASOS.  But he has clearly written himself into a complete mess with all the characters.  I genuinely believed him when he talked about that Meerenese Knot and I thought once that was blown away we'd be racing towards the end game and the writing pace would be the same as ACOK to ASOS.  That clearly hasn't happened and there are way too many loose ends to tie up in just two remaining books.

 

[The Egg]

I still believe the time gap in AFFC and the Meereenese Knot in ADWD were the problem with his pace.

The real problem is that to solve them he made the plot so slow and complicated that he now has more "knots" to solve that at the beginning of those books. I won't list them again, we all know what those problems are, but think back to the end of ASOS for a moment: you won't find an unfinished plot, you won't find anything for which you knew the direction but not how to get there, with the only exception of Dany and her wicked idea to rule Meereen. Now, after the plot has become so complicated, he'll never be able to speed up again until he finally cuts all the knots he made in the plot!
When the final event will be set into motion, then his writing MIGHT be fast. But until then, he probably doesn't know WHAT to write in the first place.

[Pwyll41]

My logic behind this was pretty simple.

• GRRM has had much of his story spoiled.  He is a self proclaimed gardener (although the amount of foreshadowing in the books would contradict this statement) and I think he'll change a lot of his original ideas to ensure they aren't the same as the TV.
• Even though he has told D&D what the ending is, I think he'll change it.  But he wants to see what the TV show does first, to ensure its different.
• The supporting evidence for the above was his barely concealed anguish when the spoilers were happening, including him coming up with that great idea they couldn't do in the TV show.  So he'll try and force more and more new stuff into the books to compensate for the spoilers.

This is the unabashed truth.  He's lost interest in his money maker. 

So take a leap of faith, learn from previous experience (Robert Jordan comes to mind) and let the 'Mysterious 5th Writer' (who loves Westeros as much as GRRM) finish the story.

That way GRRM can 'consult' and guide the storyline to its conclusion.

OTHERWISE IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!