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A Timeframe of Ice and Fire: Two Books, Too Many Upcoming Conflicts Left To Go


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32 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

I agree that we can't say anything for sure before Winds is published, but I think it's unfair to expect Feast & Dance to outshine Storm. Storm was the big climax at the middle of the story. Feast & Dance were meant to show us the aftermath of that and set the scene for the climax at the end. We can't really tell if they did their job or not without Winds. Comparing them to a hypothetical fan fiction ending isn't a good way to pick them apart.

I personally wouldn't really be satisfied with the story if Dany, Tyrion and Arya are simply rushed to Westeros for a final battle with the Others. I think doing that runs a much higher risk of cementing their story arcs as filler (but who knows, maybe George will do that and it will turn out ok).

I don't accept that Feast and Dance are slow for a reason beyond the author's desire to inject a bunch of new characters and storylines.  The bulk of Brienne's chapters were unnecessary, literally nothing of consequence happens outside of her last 2 chapters...we already know the aftermath of war in Westeros is bad, the bulk of Tyrion's chapters, ditto, not necessary, could have been condensed by 50% with no loss, same with Dany, and while I liked them better, same with Jon and Arya.   I guess I don't see that either book 'set the scene' for much of anything except for Jon and Stannis, Dany could have ended in the same place with half the chapters/words.  Now, my personal preference is that for example I enjoy Vic's chapters but don't find them necessary, same for the Damphair, we certainly didn't need both of them.  I dislike the Dorne story since Doran's plan of no action was unveiled, so I consider all of that filler.  

There is literally no reason organic to the story that we needed all of these new POVs, or that the story should have ground to a halt for two solid books and going into the second decade of waiting for movement.

The bolded is exactly the trap the author has set for himself.  If he goes too fast, he risks not only an abrupt change of pace but in showing that much of the last two books was filler, if he continues the pace he has set in Dance and Feast then he cannot possibly do justice to the new POVs and still end the series in two more books.  So, I feel he has set himself up to fail.  Another meandering book and he can't finish in 7 books, a book that cuts the new POVs too quickly proves the point of his detractors that the last two books were a sidetrip to nowhere.  I"m sure there is some small pinpoint where he could straddle the two outcomes and hit a bullseye...but it's a threading a needle situation and he doesn't seem to me that he's up to it at this point.  I would love to be proven wrong.

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A story needs to take it slow sometimes, or the major events are not going to matter. Sansa, Catelyn and Bran are very slow, arguably boring POVs in the first three books, Dany is arguably boring in the Red Waste and Quarth, and Tyrion has several slow chapters in Clash, but they all contribute to the tempo of the story.

Feast & Dance might have a bit more fluff than usual if Martin felt he had to turn 1.5 books into 2, this remains to be seen, but over 3 rereads I did not feel that the slow chapters there were in any way worse than the slow chapters in the previous books. If you decide beforehand that they are filler and you subconsciously fight against the story, yes, you will dislike them. Again, if you feel like you 100% know what the ending will be, you will subconsciously refuse to acknowledge a story is setting up any future events that don't align with your theories... but that's on you.

Now, kicking off some action in Dorne and the Iron Islands was absolutely mandatory. This is the story of a major conflict that will ultimately engulf all the Seven Kingdoms and powers beyond. You can't leave them on the wayside, or there was no point introducing them in the first place. And they both had very clear hooks since book one, with Theon and the Greyjoy rebellion and Ellia Martell's murder, drilled into our heads numerous times. Aegon as well; George seared this image of a baby's head smashed against a wall so brutally into the reader's mind, that you're going to know who he's supposed to be once he appears as a character. These are not characters and political actors pulled out of George's ass. Like Chekhov's gun, you knew they existed from the start.

Before the story is over, you know that the Greyjoys have to do something big (and they really haven't yet, they lost less than 200 men altogether and their fleet didn't enter play until Feast). You know Dorne is supposed to play its cards eventually - and yes, Doran is a bit boring, but he had to be, you had to believe as a reader why he didn't do anything to challenge Robert and why he didn't do anything during the War of the Five Kings. I think his character justifies the inaction very well, and the Dorne story still manages to come with a few epic moments (I did like Quentin's arc personally).

It's possible that ultimately the Martells and Aegon will serve no other purpose than to start a war with the Tyrells and Lannisters and decimate each other, or to trigger a greyscale plague in the south, but even this is mandatory in order to get these military forces out of the way in preparation for a truly catastrophic invasion of the Others. I believe Euron will play a more important role (he was first mentioned early in Clash, by the way), and Damphair's chapters were already redeemed by the Forsaken preview, so I don't resonate with your dislike. These are the chess pieces on the table. You can't only play the queen.

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I believe That Martin Created Euron for the purpose of we have a tread on South, since will take too much time for The Others leave the north.

My other theory is that Arianne and Aegon plotlines also is created because He don't figure how to take Dany to westeros (Dance With Dragons is suppose to be about her invasion) .

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18 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't accept that Feast and Dance are slow for a reason beyond the author's desire to inject a bunch of new characters and storylines.  The bulk of Brienne's chapters were unnecessary, literally nothing of consequence happens outside of her last 2 chapters...we already know the aftermath of war in Westeros is bad, the bulk of Tyrion's chapters, ditto, not necessary, could have been condensed by 50% with no loss, same with Dany, and while I liked them better, same with Jon and Arya.   I guess I don't see that either book 'set the scene' for much of anything except for Jon and Stannis, Dany could have ended in the same place with half the chapters/words.  Now, my personal preference is that for example I enjoy Vic's chapters but don't find them necessary, same for the Damphair, we certainly didn't need both of them.  I dislike the Dorne story since Doran's plan of no action was unveiled, so I consider all of that filler.  

There is literally no reason organic to the story that we needed all of these new POVs, or that the story should have ground to a halt for two solid books and going into the second decade of waiting for movement.

The bolded is exactly the trap the author has set for himself.  If he goes too fast, he risks not only an abrupt change of pace but in showing that much of the last two books was filler, if he continues the pace he has set in Dance and Feast then he cannot possibly do justice to the new POVs and still end the series in two more books.  So, I feel he has set himself up to fail.  Another meandering book and he can't finish in 7 books, a book that cuts the new POVs too quickly proves the point of his detractors that the last two books were a sidetrip to nowhere.  I"m sure there is some small pinpoint where he could straddle the two outcomes and hit a bullseye...but it's a threading a needle situation and he doesn't seem to me that he's up to it at this point.  I would love to be proven wrong.

 

16 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

A story needs to take it slow sometimes, or the major events are not going to matter. Sansa, Catelyn and Bran are very slow, arguably boring POVs in the first three books, Dany is arguably boring in the Red Waste and Quarth, and Tyrion has several slow chapters in Clash, but they all contribute to the tempo of the story.

Feast & Dance might have a bit more fluff than usual if Martin felt he had to turn 1.5 books into 2, this remains to be seen, but over 3 rereads I did not feel that the slow chapters there were in any way worse than the slow chapters in the previous books. If you decide beforehand that they are filler and you subconsciously fight against the story, yes, you will dislike them. Again, if you feel like you 100% know what the ending will be, you will subconsciously refuse to acknowledge a story is setting up any future events that don't align with your theories... but that's on you.

Now, kicking off some action in Dorne and the Iron Islands was absolutely mandatory. This is the story of a major conflict that will ultimately engulf all the Seven Kingdoms and powers beyond. You can't leave them on the wayside, or there was no point introducing them in the first place. And they both had very clear hooks since book one, with Theon and the Greyjoy rebellion and Ellia Martell's murder, drilled into our heads numerous times. Aegon as well; George seared this image of a baby's head smashed against a wall so brutally into the reader's mind, that you're going to know who he's supposed to be once he appears as a character. These are not characters and political actors pulled out of George's ass. Like Chekhov's gun, you knew they existed from the start.

Before the story is over, you know that the Greyjoys have to do something big (and they really haven't yet, they lost less than 200 men altogether and their fleet didn't enter play until Feast). You know Dorne is supposed to play its cards eventually - and yes, Doran is a bit boring, but he had to be, you had to believe as a reader why he didn't do anything to challenge Robert and why he didn't do anything during the War of the Five Kings. I think his character justifies the inaction very well, and the Dorne story still manages to come with a few epic moments (I did like Quentin's arc personally).

It's possible that ultimately the Martells and Aegon will serve no other purpose than to start a war with the Tyrells and Lannisters and decimate each other, or to trigger a greyscale plague in the south, but even this is mandatory in order to get these military forces out of the way in preparation for a truly catastrophic invasion of the Others. I believe Euron will play a more important role (he was first mentioned early in Clash, by the way), and Damphair's chapters were already redeemed by the Forsaken preview, so I don't resonate with your dislike. These are the chess pieces on the table. You can't only play the queen.

I somehow agree with both of you.
During my reread I really appreciated the world building of the Brienne, Tyrion and especially Dorne chapters, there was just so much to discover it would've been a shame to leave that out completely, and it does adds up to make a truly living world, with real characters that live and fight beyond the epic battles of the Hero, which has always been one of the points of ASOIAF.
But it could - and in some cases should - have been done much more quickly.
And mind you, I liked AFFC and ADWD, but there are parts of it that just don't bring anywhere, like Arya's and Dany's mental wanderings, which don't bring any depth to their respective character arcs and don't even bring tension for a final, important moment as Jon's did.

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I think some of those chapters are meant to mark the passage of time. Arya is meant to spend a lot of time training and Dany has to spend a lot of time away from her dragons. It would be weird if they only appeared at the start and at the end of the book, so they have some chapters in between that are a little more low key. They can still pay off in the future, like when we find out who the Harpy is and what his/her plan was behind the scenes in Mereen.

Also, this is more of a theory, but at least one of Arya's chapters might pay off in Tyrion's storyline if the Sailor's Wife turns out to be Tysha (and it's even more interesting that the Mercy chapter is Tyrion related as well). And all the descriptions of Braavos will pay off if more of the main characters end up there.

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On 6/9/2017 at 2:54 PM, The Coconut God said:

I think some of those chapters are meant to mark the passage of time. Arya is meant to spend a lot of time training and Dany has to spend a lot of time away from her dragons. It would be weird if they only appeared at the start and at the end of the book, so they have some chapters in between that are a little more low key. They can still pay off in the future, like when we find out who the Harpy is and what his/her plan was behind the scenes in Mereen.

Also, this is more of a theory, but at least one of Arya's chapters might pay off in Tyrion's storyline if the Sailor's Wife turns out to be Tysha (and it's even more interesting that the Mercy chapter is Tyrion related as well). And all the descriptions of Braavos will pay off if more of the main characters end up there.

The descriptions of Braavos? Maybe. Those of the countryside between Pentos and the Rhoyne? Less so. Sure, he wanted to mark the passage of time, and he wanted to allow the characters to have a slow imprinting for some things that will be decisive later on. But he shouldn't have, because this means he used two whole books for world building and now he has no space to actually write up everything in two more. So he either cuts some storyline or writes three (or four?) books. Taking for granted that the first is a dreadful idea for anyone here, I could be ok with the second. The problem is, though, will he ever WANT to write 3 more books?

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26 minutes ago, The Egg said:

The descriptions of Braavos? Maybe. Those of the countryside between Pentos and the Rhoyne? Less so. Sure, he wanted to mark the passage of time, and he wanted to allow the characters to have a slow imprinting for some things that will be decisive later on. But he shouldn't have, because this means he used two whole books for world building and now he has no space to actually write up everything in two more. So he either cuts some storyline or writes three (or four?) books. Taking for granted that the first is a dreadful idea for anyone here, I could be ok with the second. The problem is, though, will he ever WANT to write 3 more books?

There are 6 Tyrion chapters before he is kidnapped by Jorah, 3 with Illyrio and 3 on the Rhoyne, and there are a lot of little plot wheels turning in them. It would be very hard to justify cutting them without feeling like he shoved Aegon down our throats. If you really wanted to take a butcher's cleaver to this arc, you could probably clear out a chapter from it, put the pacing of that reveal would suffer.

The real issue here (and I think George has said this much) is that for the greatest part of Feast and Dance the major PoV characters don't cross paths, so when you follow Tyrion's arc from Pentos to Volantis it's only going to be Tyrion chapters. If you look at Tyrion's imprisonment in Game, that's also 6 chapters, but they are split between him an Cat, so it's going to seem like it only took 3 Tyrion chapters to see him through that arc. The Battle of the Blackwater is also 6 chapters, but there are 3 PoV characters there, so Tyrion only gets 2, etc.

It feels like things are happening at a slower pace because it takes more of the same character's PoVs to complete an arc, but that's really an illusion. In fact, now that I took a better look, things like the Kingsmoot and the Dorne plotline seem really economical when it comes to the number of chapters. Once characters start to gravitate towards each other, things will appear to be moving faster again. The question is if the things set up in Feast and Dance will pay off in a believable way. Hopefully they will.

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I understand your point of view, and I agree on the fact that the most serious issue on the pace is that characters never cross paths, but still I think that's not all the story: of those Illyrio chapters, how many words were used to actually build a world or put some wheels in motion, and how many were just getting us to feel how bored Tyrion was? And when he gets kidnapped, sure a lot of things happen to him... but why should all those things happen? If the point was just carrying him to Dany, there could've been easier paths.
Even more, I think about The Wall and Meereen chapters, and I compare them to KL chapters in AGOT: sure, Jon's arc needs tension as Ned's did in AGOT. Still, that tension builds up much, much more slowly in ADWD, and much less happens in those chapters to build it up. Same with Dany, she needed to face troubles and to have bad advisers, but she never managed to actually solve anything, and her chapters were just a constant whining, either hers or everybody else's. And, what's worse, contrary to Jon's, her chapters didn't go anywhere, as she's still a long time from setting sail to Westeros, while Jon's arc is pretty clear and straightforward from now on. And he doesn't have to invade a whole continent.

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The characters have to go through more than the essential plot points, otherwise it's going to feel very fake. You can't only have four Tyrion chapters, one with Illyrio, one with Aegon, one with Jorah and one as a slave. Each of these small arcs represents a major change of course for the character, you have to take him through the steps: scene setting, tension building and climax. George dedicates three chapters for each arc, which is the minimum it takes for it to feel like it has depth. One or two would be bare bones. Of all his arcs, only the one with lllyrio could take being cut down to two chapters imho, but even then it's not a certainty that it would be better that way.

George could afford to do one chapter per arc with Arya's training for example because every arc was a different lesson; they were all part of the larger arc of her FM training and they all took place in the same location. With Tyrion things were more complicated.

Sure, you can dislike the character's mood during those chapters (it can be annoying, but it is believable; other characters had their annoying moments too in the past, particularly Sansa). You can question some of the new characters these chapters introduce, like Aegon, Moqorro and Penny, but this is where we need to see what part they play in Winds to truly tell if they were a waste of time or not,

As for Jon and Dany, this is where I think George felt the need to convey time the most. Feast and Dance replaced the 5 years gap. They couldn't cover 5 years, obviously, but he still had to give the impression that Dany spends a lot of time in Mereen, that she spends a lot of time without her dragons... and during all that, he had to show the same amount of time passing at the Wall. I think George said that this was a major challenge with the gap: he could skip over 5 years for Dany, Arya and Sansa and show them again with some experience under their belts, but Jon's story had more urgency and he couldn't realistically skip 5 years ahead with him. These numerous chapters are a balancing act of having time pass in Mereen and things happening at the Wall without the Others invading. I don't think it came out half bad (again, if Winds disappoints it will retroactively make these books worse, but this was the case with Game and Clash/Storm as well)

I think it's a mistake to analyze the story in terms of "how fast will Dany get to Westeros". We don't know if she will. We don't know if she needs to; she certainly doesn't from a character perspective - her own arc would be fulfilling if she merely conquers Essos and puts an end to slavery there. We don't know if the Others will be defeated or merely survived, if they will take the North or the entirety of Westeros, if they will threaten Essos at all or if they will even breach the Wall. We don't know if there will be a Dragons vs Others battle or just a commando mission meant to stop the Long Night, or if the Others will lose the lands they take by the end of the series.

Instead of Dany getting to Westeros, I suggested that Jon and Sansa could end up leading refugees into Essos (in successive waves). I think that's a more realistic scenario, considering Jon is running out of minor arcs and Dany still has plenty, and they're supposed to meet in the middle. What else is Jon going to do while Dany unites the Dothraki, pacifies Slaver's Bay, conquers Volantis, travels to Pentos, deals with Euron, and establishes a foothold on Westeros? This way Euron can start out as an antagonist for the Westerosi refugees (and implicitly Jon & Sansa), and Dany only needs to get past Volantis to meet with Jon.

Not saying this is how the story it's going to unfold, but it's at least one scenario where Dany doesn't need to catapult herself to Westeros to bring characters together and move the story along.

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I've said before there are options for Dany to stay in Westeros, and I even like those possibilities... but that's not what George said, neither in his interviews nor in the books! What's the point in the whole Meereenes Knot if she's not using that darn Vic's fleet to set sail to Westeros? What's the point in Tyrion going through all that?
I get your point, and I'm not saying you're wrong. I actually liked both AFFC and ADWD (the former more on second read, the latter more on first read, and neither as much as AGOT and ASOS, but still I liked them), and I'd never be able to write something so massive, so I'm not complaining with George.

What I'm saying, about Tyrion for example, is was all this really necessary? I get that not many chapters could've been cut, but was it necessary to follow every single part of his journey? We never follow Jorah's journey to the Rhoyne... how did he end up there? And was it necessary to have him set sail for somewhere else, and be captured by pirates, and be sold to the slavers and then to the Second Sons?, only to be able to be on the WRONG side of the war in Meereen? I agree you can't have him just "go there", but having him go through all that and finally happening out of pure luck exactly where he wanted to be as soon as he heard of the dragon queen is even a bigger plot armor than just having him make a simple, uneventful trip. And Vic's and Quentyn's trips, were they necessary? I can't see that.
Finally, Dany's journey had to be like that, there had to be a lot of Meereen chapters to see her rule... but they should've spanned a much longer time, at least seeing hints of her growing tired of the city and thinking of Westeros, because she's just behind anyone else in her storyline, if she has to have a big part in the finale.

The point that I'm trying to make here is just that the decision he made of not having a 5 year gap made his life much easier for AFFC, which was then written quite fast, but incredibly hard for ADWD and TWOW. He hadn't planned to actually write all those journeys, only the outcomes, and so the whole story had to slow down. Them, of course, it's his saga and he can do whatever he wants with it, but that's my idea

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I'm not sure if Vic's fleet is large enough to transport all her troops... Nor do I think that he's going to wait for her to return to Mereen; he's eventually going to do what the Ironborn do, steal a dragon or two and retreat back to sea.

I may be totally wrong with this, but I just can't see what would motivate Dany to immediately sail to Westeros after the Battle of Fire, especially if she learns to control Drogon and unites the khalasars. It's a given that the Ghiscari are fucked and the Dothraki will give up enslaving people under Dany. This only leaves a handful of city-states in Essos that still use slaves: Qarth, Volantis, Qohor, Norvos and the Quarrelsome Sisters.

It's pretty heavily hinted that Dany will deal with Volantis, and we can easily expect at least one of the cities - let's say Qarth - to fold like a lawnchair and accept Dany's terms, and one city to be conquered in between chapters - probably Qohor, since readers have the least investment there and we know the least about it, not to mentioned it's closest to the Dothraki, and, given its history, it would be poetic for them to take it.

Without slowing the story at all, we're down to Norvos, where incidentally Quentin's mother is located, and the QS, Lys, Tyrosh and Myr, which are right across Westeros, So I don't think it would be that much of a stretch for Dany to take this route rather than simply sailing immediately with Vic's fleet or the Volantene armada. And the situation with the QS can change by the time she gets there to the point that they're no longer part of the slavery plot. Given their location, they could: a. be taken by or ally with Euron & Cersei, b. serve as the location of Aegon's retreat, if he is pushed out of Westeros by Cersei or the Others, or c. fall to the Others as they spill from Westeros into the Disputed Lands over the frozen Stepstones (highly hypothetical, assuming the theory that Westeros falls to the Others in WInds is correct)... Or they could simply accept Dany's terms as well and let her move on to Westeros, if they're the last slaver cities standing and her forces are truly intimidating. That works too.

 

With Tyrion's chapters, I am forced to fall back to the same argument: we need to see if the characters introduced there are relevant. Are Aegon, Moqorro, Penny, the Widow of the Waterfront and the R'hllor priesthood in Volantis going to play meaningful parts? If yes, George didn't take much more time than he needed to establish them, and we might get rewarded on rereads. If not, the chapters will be worse. Same with Victarion (I think Quentin already played a decent role in the story; his chapters may or may not have set up more than that - we'll see if his death has more consequences for Dany or if the Tattered's Prince's desire for Pentos will lead to anything).

As far as Tyrion ending up with the Second Sons, it is at least a way for him to prove himself. Dany accepting him if he simply showed up at her door like in the show would have been hard to swallow. He's also a PoV on the Ghiscari side for the Battle of Fire, so there's that technical advantage as well...

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I agree with what you said, but here's where the point is:

10 hours ago, The Coconut God said:

With Tyrion's chapters, I am forced to fall back to the same argument: we need to see if the characters introduced there are relevant. Are Aegon, Moqorro, Penny, the Widow of the Waterfront and the R'hllor priesthood in Volantis going to play meaningful parts? If yes, George didn't take much more time than he needed to establish them, and we might get rewarded on rereads. If not, the chapters will be worse. Same with Victarion (I think Quentin already played a decent role in the story; his chapters may or may not have set up more than that - we'll see if his death has more consequences for Dany or if the Tattered's Prince's desire for Pentos will lead to anything).

Will they? And even more importantly, did George know that they'll be important, when he first wrote about them?
Because my impression is that he develops the story as he's writing it, so he doesn't know who'll have a proper arc in the story and who won't until they happen to be at the right place in the right moment, or he finds out he needs them. For example, we know the first chapters of AGOT were written with "the Evil Jamie" in mind, and as far as we know all the first book and some of the second might have been written with that objective in mind, until he made a U-turn to make him such an awesome character. The Hound might've been under the same treatment, as there's literally no hint at his personality in the first book, while hints at other people's arc have always been all over the place for the major characters (e.g. R+L=J, but also Dany, Arya, Ned, Cat, Tyrion and Sansa had their "character themes" well set from the start and lots of foreshadowing can often be found, in rereads). Not to mention that of the countless characters that have been nominated during the course of the first few books, only few of them have had a part in the story so far, and I'm quite confident some of it was not completely anticipated by George as well.

So, of course, some of these character that have been introduced might have their destinies well set in George's mind. Aegon, for sure. And I can see the Widow, Penny and Moqorro play a bigger role. But at the same time, I can also see their role being fulfilled by someone who doesn't need 3 or 4 chapters of introduction as the last two have had. And I can't see ALL of what we've seen being already set in George's mind when he wrote the books. After all, if he had all so clear in his mind there'd be no knots for him and we'd have already the whole story right now.

But I'm glad he doesn't know the story, because otherwise we wouldn't have had amazing characters like Jamie and the Hound

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On Invalid Date at 6:13 AM, The Egg said:

I've said before there are options for Dany to stay in Westeros, and I even like those possibilities... but that's not what George said, neither in his interviews nor in the books! 

.....

Them, of course, it's his saga and he can do whatever he wants with it, but that's my idea

 

6 hours ago, The Egg said:

I agree with what you said, but here's where the point is:

Will they? And even more importantly, did George know that they'll be important, when he first wrote about them?
Because my impression is that he develops the story as he's writing it, so he doesn't know who'll have a proper arc in the story and who won't until they happen to be at the right place in the right moment, or he finds out he needs them. 

.... And I can't see ALL of what we've seen being already set in George's mind when he wrote the books. After all, if he had all so clear in his mind there'd be no knots for him and we'd have already the whole story right now.

But I'm glad he doesn't know the story...

 

I say, if the narrative is fluid, then the narrative is fluid. I find it inconsistent to say Danny must travel to Westeros to firefight White Walkers just because that's how George saw the story 20 years ago. The story has grown, the author has grown (not a fat joke), and the story may pivot irrevocably from his original flow chart.

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17 hours ago, shadows and dust said:

 

 

I say, if the narrative is fluid, then the narrative is fluid. I find it inconsistent to say Danny must travel to Westeros to firefight White Walkers just because that's how George saw the story 20 years ago. The story has grown, the author has grown (not a fat joke), and the story may pivot irrevocably from his original flow chart.

Sure. But the narrative of the main characters (those who've been main since the beginning at least) has never been fluid. Arya has been thought as a future Faceless Woman, and so she is. Sansa has been set to play the Game in the courts, and so she is. Bran was supposed to learn from the Three Eyed Raven, and so he is. Jon was supposed to be the leader of the fight against the WW, and that's where he's heading, Tyrion has spent his all arc unifying different storylines, and he'll go back doing so as soon as he gets to Dany. So why should we think Dany's fate would be different? Why would she be the only main not to follow her projected arc?
Then again, I said before I'd be perfectly ok with such a development, as long as it makes sense plotwise. I just said I don't believe HER storyline will be too fluid. That's what causes the knots after all: having well fixed arcs in a story that's developing over two decades.

And I repeat: this is not an accusation of any kind, it's just my opinion of George's writing method. Which, of course, could be absolutely wrong as I never even met him and only base myself on his writing and interviews, but I believe it's not much of a stretch given what we know.

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On 6/15/2017 at 0:46 PM, The Egg said:

Will they? And even more importantly, did George know that they'll be important, when he first wrote about them?

The previous books have given us no reason to doubt that. George is a very deliberate writer. His characters are consistent, his world feels real, and on re-reads you always get the impression that he knew what was going to happen several volumes in advance (this includes a very obvious hook for Euron as early as Clash). It may take a lot of time for a gardener to grow and tend his plants, and he can't predict exactly how many leaves and flowers will spring up, but you can be sure he knows what sort of seeds he put in the ground.

Overall Feast and Dance are consistent with and flow naturally from the rest of the story. There is no reason to dis them. They are simply the start of a new arc which has yet to reach its climax. Instead of judging the set-up based on an imagined conclusion, try to ask yourself what other conclusions could be reached from the set-up. I find that to be more satisfying. In a way I understand where you're coming from - in the end it might be better to have low expectations and be pleasantly surprised than the other way around. But if you invest too much in having low expectations, that can sour your experience too.

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18 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

Instead of judging the set-up based on an imagined conclusion, try to ask yourself what other conclusions could be reached from the set-up. I find that to be more satisfying. In a way I understand where you're coming from - in the end it might be better to have low expectations and be pleasantly surprised than the other way around. But if you invest too much in having low expectations, that can sour your experience too.

I must've had some problems in making myself understood, sorry: I never, not even for a moment, thought TWOW will be a disappointment!
The only thing I'm having low expectation on is a release date, because he had said he planned to finish it by Halloween 2014, but I'm not contesting the books that have been here so far nor that the next ones will be worth reading.

What I was doing was primarily trying to find what could arise from the books we have, but I guess the conversation has been carried away in these 10 pages, so I also thought at what the reason why we're left wondering is...

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I try to keep the release date issue out of my mind. There can be any number of reasons why it's taking so long (if it really is that long to begin with), but whatever it is we can't help it...

Personally I think the main problem is that it's simply difficult to write such a complex story along. The deeper you go, the more things you have to double-check and keep track of. But the fact that George seems adamant about maintaining his standards is encouraging.

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50 minutes ago, The Coconut God said:

I try to keep the release date issue out of my mind. There can be any number of reasons why it's taking so long (if it really is that long to begin with), but whatever it is we can't help it...

Personally I think the main problem is that it's simply difficult to write such a complex story along. The deeper you go, the more things you have to double-check and keep track of. But the fact that George seems adamant about maintaining his standards is encouraging.

Please. Where do you get the impression that he is adamant about standards? I get the feel of a spoiled kid taking forever to get dressed to spite his mother for saying "let's go, we're late."

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I think there is only a handful of reasons, which all boil down to one reason, as to why at mid June 2017 there has been no word from the author on progress since Jan. 2016. but that's me.

And he is the one who made the story more complex in the last two books.  Now, not only does he have to resolve the stories of the main characters but he has to deal with the Martells and the Greyjoys, and with giving those stories enough depth and life to have made them worth including [which I say they were not worth it], as well as move Arya and Dany to Westeros, which I'm sorry, there is just no way at all she stays in Essos.  It's possible, vaguely possible, she could go back to Essos at the end, but she will absolutely go to Westeros, fight with Aegon and then fight the others.  

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1 hour ago, Ninerings said:

Please. Where do you get the impression that he is adamant about standards? I get the feel of a spoiled kid taking forever to get dressed to spite his mother for saying "let's go, we're late."

From his writing and his interviews. I'm sorry, but it's you who comes off as spoiled because you want the books "now, now, now".

Look, if the next books are as good as the first and the series maintains its cult status, it's not going to matter 50 years from now that he took 3 years or 6 or 10 to finish each novel. And if they're bad people will realize the time they had discussing or reading about wild theories on these forums was the best thing about the saga, so they won't regret it lasted as much as it did.

And even if Winds ends up being the last one published, if it is to be good it has to be the book that escalates all the major conflicts from the final arc. Once Winds is released we will have a much better understanding of what the climax is supposed to be about for every major character arc.

 

@Cas Stark The Martells and Greyjoys were waiting to be introduced since at least the second book, if not the fist. If they weren't going to play a part in the grander story, he could have just as easily made Westeros "The Five Kingdoms". You can challenge the execution all you want, but it's naive to think they were never going to play important parts (much more important than what Theon and Balon did in Clash).

As for Arya and Dany going to Westeros, it remains to be seen. Doubtful they'll do it without proper build-up and motivation. As far as Arya is concerned, the show makes it very doubtful that she has anything to do in Westeros. Season 7 leaks spoilers below:

Spoiler

On the show they are giving Arya Lady Stoneheart's role, so we know she's not going to do that in the books. She reunites with Nymeria only to part ways again, so we know the direwolf isn't going to be important for Arya's story in the book. What's left? Killing Littlefinger? Do you really think Arya will go to Westeros just to act as Littlefinger's executioner for Sansa? That's not a character arc, it's fan service. Sansa could have asked a nameless extra or a CGI dog to execute Littlefinger for her.

So what reason would Arya have to return to Westeros in the books? Especially to a North overrun by Others?

 

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