Sybell Westerling – What was the “arrangement”?

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

It’s been bugging me since I first read Feast, what exactly was the arrangement between Sybell and Tywin? Part of it was obviously to ensure Jeyne didn’t get pregnant, but did it go further than that? There are some theories that Sybell set Jeyne up as a honey trap to tempt Rob and therefore break up the Stark-Frey alliance, but how would Sybell be able to manoeuvre events in such a way?

I thought that the Spicers may have been in on the Red Wedding, but it’s clear from Sybell’s conversation with Jaime that she was completely unaware of that plan. That conversation is where it’s hinted that she had an arrangement with Tywin, for which she was very richly rewarded, but it’s not really made clear what exactly her role was.

Am I missing something obvious?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

49 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

but how would Sybell be able to manoeuvre events in such a way?

Love potion. She used in in order Robb being with Jeyne, that way there would be no Frey marriage but turmoil. Then she would make sure that there wouldn't be a Stark heir. For that her brother became the Lord of Castamere, lords and heirs for her daughters and Tywin

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said that Raynald should have joy of him, if all went as we hoped.

So maybe marrying Joy Hill with her son, but Tywin already promised that she will marrry one of Walder's natural sons.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

56 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Love potion. She used in in order Robb being with Jeyne, that way there would be no Frey marriage but turmoil. Then she would make sure that there wouldn't be a Stark heir. For that her brother became the Lord of Castamere, lords and heirs for her daughters and Tywin

Does that suggest that Tywin was behind the whole thing from the beginning? How much do you think Jeyne was in on it?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Does that suggest that Tywin was behind the whole thing from the beginning? How much do you think Jeyne was in on it?

Yes he was behind everything. As he told Tyrion

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Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens.

 

He had won the war because unlike Robb he is smart, cunning and wicked. No, Jaime wasn't involved after all when all those happen he was a hostage.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Jaime wasn't involved after all when all those happen he was a hostage.

Jeyne not Jaime

[Jon's Queen Consort]

5 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Jeyne not Jaime

 my mistake. I wish that she wasn't, I am not sure tho. However Tywin said 

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Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter, and Robb Stark is his father's son.

so I believe that she knew.

[A wilding]

It is speculation as to exactly when Sybelle and Tywin started communicating. Indeed it is possible that Rolph Spicer was the leading spirit on the Spicer/Westerling side.

I think we can safely assume that Tywin thought he was buying the Robb/Jeyne marriage and the subsequent defection of the Freys, plus we know he was buying Robb having no heir. From Tywin's pov, there was clearly no upside in giving Sybelle any warning of the Red Wedding.

My guess is that Sybelle pushed Jeyne into Robb's bed, thinking that at worst it would make Robb kinder to the Westerlings, and that force majeure excuses could always be made to Tywin. When Robb married Jeyne (possibly unexpectedly) she took advantage, or possibly just felt she had to contact Tywin so as to avoid his wrath.

 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter, and Robb Stark is his father's son.

Yeah, that statement from Tywin stuck with me too. I think it's likely that Jeyne started off betraying Rob, but then fell in love with him, a bit like Roslin Frey.

[A wilding]

3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter, and Robb Stark is his father's son.

 

Jeyne was clearly in love with Robb and clearly did not know her mother was working for his downfall.

Jeyne's mother managed to get a man far substantially higher in rank to marry her. Robb's father was a notoriously honourable man. That is probably Tywin's meaning. It is also possible that Sybelle/Rolph had not told Tywin the full unvarnished truth of what had happened.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, A wilding said:

Jeyne was clearly in love with Robb and clearly did not know her mother was working for his downfall.

Jeyne's mother managed to get a man far substantially higher in rank to marry her. Robb's father was a notoriously honourable man. That is probably Tywin's meaning. It is also possible that Sybelle/Rolph had not told Tywin the full unvarnished truth of what had happened.

I don't think that we are able to use the word *clearly* for something that no PoV character is involved. As I said I wish that it was true.

10 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Yeah, that statement from Tywin stuck with me too. I think it's likely that Jeyne started off betraying Rob, but then fell in love with him, a bit like Roslin Frey.

I could see that. Even if I hope that she didn't knew I tend to believe that she knew and played her role perfectly but then fell in love with  him.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

13 minutes ago, A wilding said:

Jeyne was clearly in love with Robb and clearly did not know her mother was working for his downfall.

I'd say it's anything but clear whether she knew or not. I certainly think she did love Robb but it doesn't necessarily follow that she was completely ignorant of what was going on. To be honest, her knowing nothing to begin with would have been a bit odd. 

[Philokles]

Given that the plot started with an unpredictable arrow wound, I believe Sybell came up with an impromptu plan when Robb was injured. Set Jeyne up as a honey trap with Robb feeling honour bound to marry her. Afterwards Sybell stops her becoming pregnant until the result of the war is clear. Having informed Tywin of what you were doing it is a win-win situation - if the Lannisters win then you will be rewarded, if the Starks win then your daughter is Queen and the drugs can be stopped.

If Jeyne was in on the plan then she would have stopped taking the potion when she genuinely fell in love with Robb.

[sifth]

I never did like this sub plot. It require too much luck to work out, especially since there are no phones in this world.

[Philokles]

The "Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter, and Robb Stark is his father's son" line is a little strange. I'd suggest it either refers to their ambition - Sybell's to carry out this plot in hope of reward and Jeyne's to marry a King despite the risk, or, given the context of Tyrion remarking about the risks the Westerlings were taking (unaware of Sybell's duplicity), that she will escape punishment due to the great help provided by her mother.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

Another query I have is the role of Ralph Spicer in all this. If Sybell was the main mover and shaker behind the plot, then why did Grey Wind have a particular dislike for Ralph rather than her?

[Khal BlackfyreO]

27 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

The "Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter, and Robb Stark is his father's son" line is a little strange. I'd suggest it either refers to their ambition - Sybell's to carry out this plot in hope of reward and Jeyne's to marry a King despite the risk, or, given the context of Tyrion remarking about the risks the Westerlings were taking (unaware of Sybell's duplicity), that she will escape punishment due to the great help provided by her mother.

Tywin was a bit notorious for giving little-to-no value to the lives, intelligence, and honorability of base-born people.  Jeyne's mother was exactly that, and it is totally typical of Tywin to expect.-not know-but expect, the daughter to be the same.  I don´t know if you can read that much into that line, coming from someone who couldn´t stop calling a whore a whore to save his own life. 

[A wilding]

48 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I don't think that we are able to use the word *clearly* for something that no PoV character is involved. As I said I wish that it was true.

 

Well if Jeyne was not in love with Robb then she is an absolutely superb actress, especially given her age. She fooled not only Robb, but, as far as we can tell, everyone around him also.

But the clincher for me is the risk factor from Sybelle's point of view. Assuming that the plan was to work for Robb's downfall, why risk telling Jeyne that? That just makes it harder for Jeyne to pretend, and also she might consciously decide to warn him. After all Robb is presumably Jeyne's first man. Relying on her not to weaken towards him feels rather iffy to me.

I do agree that she might well not have fallen for him until after they went to bed though.

 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I don't believe in the theory that Tywin was in on getting Robb and Jeyne together in the first place.  It would have required either insane prescience (like him telling every major and minor house in the Westerlands that if they happen to have a daughter they should shove him Robb's way if they should happen to have to surrender to him??) or ability/speed of communication that is unrealistic (Tywin finding out Robb was injured and getting a message to Sybill to use a love potion on Robb and Jeyne all within a space of a week or so).  

It's much more likely that Sibyll is a more mundane creature - of the type we see in this series all too often.  She's a scheming climber that did what she could to increase her own power.  When Robb took their castle, she certainly hoped that Jeyne would seduce him.  Either it was a love potion or she just assumed nature would take its course if she made sure they were left alone with Jeyne as his nurse.  Or Jeyne was truly "in on it" but that doesn't seem in character.  So, if Robb's campaign is successful, she has a daughter who is a queen and mother of kings.

At the same time, if Robb's campaign failed, she can still do well. Secretly she tells Tywin about what's happened it and asks for further instruction.  Tywin didn't mind one bit that Sybill got Robb to break his oath to the Freys (and Sybill probably knew this also), what he can't have is a Stark heir for the North to rally around.  So he commands Sybill to secretly give Jeyne moon tea in the guise of a fertility potion.  While Sybill had no clue about the Red Wedding (clearly since some of her sons died), she was always looking for a way to win no matter what the outcome of the war. 

[Khal BlackfyreO]

43 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

Given that the plot started with an unpredictable arrow wound, I believe Sybell came up with an impromptu plan when Robb was injured. Set Jeyne up as a honey trap with Robb feeling honour bound to marry her. Afterwards Sybell stops her becoming pregnant until the result of the war is clear. Having informed Tywin of what you were doing it is a win-win situation - if the Lannisters win then you will be rewarded, if the Starks win then your daughter is Queen and the drugs can be stopped.

If Jeyne was in on the plan then she would have stopped taking the potion when she genuinely fell in love with Robb.

This is the most likely and plausible.  Before Robb gets his arrow wound, there can be no possible plot, its totally dependent on that fact.  How much time passes between that and the two of them actually getting together is not known, but you have to figure it would take at the very least three days to recover from the wound before Robb would be able to do anything, if not longer.  I don´t know how fast ravens can fly, but that is from one coast of Westeros to the other and back and only then, would Jeyne start 'seducing' him?  I don´t know how plausible it is that 'everything' was planned from Kingslanding, and I can´t imagine that Jeyne would be that good at seduction at that age anyway.  But we can only imagine the details of what happened.  How common knowledge was it that Robb was promised to a Frey girl anyway?

[Maxxine]

I refuse to believe that Tywin set this up before Robb met Jeyne and he and Sybelle came up with this great plan before. For this to be true, they would have had to predict that Robb would get hurt, that Jeyne would sleep with him, and Robb would make the stupid decision to marry her. The only thing  they could have planned was that Jeyne would sleep with Robb (and even then they would have to know that Robb would stop at the Crag). Therefore, I believe Sybelle contacted Tywin after the marriage or at the earliest right before it. Tywin and Sybelle having this grand plan before Robb even gets there just doesn't make sense. I also don't think Jeyne was in on it and she truly loved Robb.