What do you think would of happened had Robert been present at the ToJ?

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

This is a very interesting notion. Knowing what we know now from the TV Show (Lyanna being Jon Snow's mother) I'm wondering what Ned would of done if Robert hadn't been injured at the Trident and him and Ned hadn't had a falling out over the Targaryen children being butchered, and he was there at the ToJ as well and he found out about Jon. Would Ned had just let Robert kill his newly born nephew right then and there? Even if Jon was a product of rape (which is pretty doubtful at this point since Lyanna made Ned promise to keep the child safe, which showed she had great passion for the child), Ned would certainly not have any ill will towards the child as he is blameless in the situation, plus Ned is a very honorable man, Robert on the other hand is not. Would Robert have even cared that Lyanna "wanted" the baby? That could of been a potential permanent fallout between Ned and Robert right then and there. Would Ned had killed Robert to protect his nephew? So much great speculation to be had go ham.

[Trump the Builder]

i definitely think Robert would have tried to kill the baby regardless of what Lyanna wanted.  His jealousy and rage would have certainly got the best of him.  I could also see Ned trying to stand up for his sister and the two of them fighting to the death.  My guess is that Robert may have won.

[Future Null Infinity]

^ same opinion, I think that Robert is way skilled fighter than Ned, he would kill Ned if Ned decides to protect the baby and he will kill the baby imediately thinking it's a product of rape and he will never accept the truth about the love between Lyanna and Raeghar

[KingofIce]

If they fought and Ned lost, I highly doubt that Lyanna would want to be with Robert. Additionally that would have caused the family's to call off the marriage anyways. The active lord of the North would probably decided to not be part of the unified Westeros or any part of anything that the  Baratheon's were involved with if that happened.
All that even happening would only be an issue if Robert could beat Dayne without being wounded, hell I doubt he would even survive that battle in general.

[Anton Martell]

I think he's shocked, can't understand what happens and then get mad and kill the babe. Or try to at least. But then what happens? Does he still wishes to be king? Does he takes his life (especially since Lyanna is dead probably due to childbirth)?

 

It would be an interesting alternative world. 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Assuming they both survive the fight, yes, Robert would want to kill the baby.  But Ned would try to stop him, and I don't think Robert could kill Ned to do it.

Once he's calmed down Ned would say he would never let Robert kill the baby.  That he'll take him north and raise him as his own bastard.  I think Robert would rage about it but ultimately he would let him go.  

[Cron]

On 7/25/2016 at 5:46 PM, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

This is a very interesting notion. Knowing what we know now from the TV Show (Lyanna being Jon Snow's mother) I'm wondering what Ned would of done if Robert hadn't been injured at the Trident and him and Ned hadn't had a falling out over the Targaryen children being butchered, and he was there at the ToJ as well and he found out about Jon. Would Ned had just let Robert kill his newly born nephew right then and there? Even if Jon was a product of rape (which is pretty doubtful at this point since Lyanna made Ned promise to keep the child safe, which showed she had great passion for the child), Ned would certainly not have any ill will towards the child as he is blameless in the situation, plus Ned is a very honorable man, Robert on the other hand is not. Would Robert have even cared that Lyanna "wanted" the baby? That could of been a potential permanent fallout between Ned and Robert right then and there. Would Ned had killed Robert to protect his nephew? So much great speculation to be had go ham.

Interesting question.

I'm inclined to believe Robert would not have harmed Jon, cuz Robert loved Lyanna so much, and I don't think Robert would harm Lyanna's child, but I don't think we can say for sure.   Still, it seems crystal clear to me that Robert truly and deeply loved Lyanna.  I don't think he would have harmed Jon, especially if Ned was there and had even a few minutes to talk him out of it.

[MoreOrLess]

4 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Assuming they both survive the fight, yes, Robert would want to kill the baby.  But Ned would try to stop him, and I don't think Robert could kill Ned to do it.

Once he's calmed down Ned would say he would never let Robert kill the baby.  That he'll take him north and raise him as his own bastard.  I think Robert would rage about it but ultimately he would let him go.  

Ironically you could argue if Robert had known of Jon's background and let him live the end result would have been pretty similar, Ned promises to have Jon join the NW's so that even if his background is revealed he's out of the picture politically plus of course he's unlikely to have children.

[Not a kneeler]

If Robert saw Lyanna die in childbirth, he would have killed Jon - no question. He wouldn't have cared whether Lyanna had gone with Rhaegar willingly or not.  He and Ned might have fought, but maybe not. Undoubtedly, the break between Ned and Robert would have been permanent and Ned would never have become Hand of the king.

Ned kept Jon's parentage secret for a reason. He knew Robert's quick flashpoint and hot-headed nature boded ill for any Targaryen, especially Jon. Remember that it was common for people to blame the child for the death of the mother who died giving birth to him. Thank goodness Robert wasn't there.

[Lord Lannister]

Robert dies from frog spear to the neck.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

1 - Yes, Robert survives the fight... only Dayne is a match against him and even he is at a disadvantage against a guy with better genetics and the same skill with a weapon superior to a sword, the 3 kg die again, but much faster

2 - who knows, emotions run high and fast, he could kill ned howland and jon or he could curse the skies and leave with a promise that managed to keep the boy away from his eyes and throne, i believe the second, but to each his own

[Myself656]

My hunch is that if Robert were at the Tower of Joy, he would have been the first to die as Dayne and the other two Kingsguard focused on the usurper who killed Prince Rhaegar and stood by while his wife and other children were murdered. Perhaps this means more of Ned's companions than Howland Reed also survive the fight because of the focus on finishing off Robert or maybe its otherwise the same.

But with the new king dead there's now a power vacuum because Robert hasn't secured his position as king. While Stannis would technically be his heir, would anyone else responsible for putting Robert on the throne back that play over Lord Arryn or Ned Stark who actually led the rebellion? Would Tywin see this as the ideal moment to pull a power play and put himself on the throne?

Here's a wild take on that; with Robert dead there is no reason to hide Jon's identity. Robert's claim to the throne was based on Targ blood, so instead of installing a new line, Ned reveals Jon as the true King (only surviving son of Rhaegar) and raises him at Winterfell in preparation for the role while Jon Arryn serves as Hand/Regent until Jon comes of age.

With Robert dead, the kill order on Viserys and Dany would have never been in effect and they could have been raised at Dragonstone as uncle and aunt of the king. They do not grow up with dreams of reclaiming the throne for their family because Jon Targaryen is already king. Dany isn't forced into marriage with Khal Drogo and so no dragon eggs are hatched.

Ned and Cat never have strife over Jon being brought to Winterfell and so grows up in a much kinder environment.

Tywin would of course still scheme to advance his house. Cersei would most likely be married off to someone else; but with Ned, Jon Arryn and Stannis already married that narrows things down considerably. Perhaps Edmure Tully would have been forced into marriage earlier as part of cementing an alliance. Renly Baratheon is another alternative as next in line to the Stormlands (with Stannis' difficulties making that unlikely to change) and Cersei might not even mind that one too much as he'd have no real interest in her and, presuming Jaime could get out of his Kingsguard duties (something he'd be more eager to do without Cersei in King's Landing) there might still even be a Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen with a different presumptive Baratheon father.

You'd also still have the Martell's plotting revenge on the Lannisters, Varys perhaps trying to pull a fAegon scheme (particularly if that is an actual Blackfyre scheme) and almost certainly Littlefinger plotting with Lyssa to murder Jon Arryn and foment chaos.

The result of Jon Arryn's death would probably result in King Jon to appoint Ned his Hand and you'd still have Ned, Sansa and Arya come south to King's Landing to claim the throne and re-establish order. However, because Cersei and Jaime would have never gone to Winterfell, their infidelity would never be discovered by Bran and he would not end up a cripple, nor would an assassin be sent to kill him and so THAT would not be something that would touch off a crisis that would get Ned executed and his family put through hell.

Still, I suspect Ned would have not really prepared King Jon for all the corruption and intrigues of the capitol so troubles would arise and he could even end up dead, this time by an assassin's dagger instead of executed as a traitor to knock the new king off balance and force him to rash action.

Another trouble would be in the North where, without Jon at the Wall to learn of Mance's plans and lead the men in defense of the Wall, an army of a hundred thousand Wildlings crushes the Night's Watch and invades an unprepared North.

This I suspect could be a trigger point for a variant devastating war at a time the realm should be preparing for Winter. The Wildlings show no signs of stopping with the North and so the realm must be rallied against them, likely leading to a protracted war in the Riverlands (the devastation of which would likely give rise to some version of the Brotherhood without Banners and the Sparrows). Instead of being slaughtered at the Red Wedding, Robb and Cat might end up killed in a Wildling siege of Winterfell while Bran and Rickon go missing in the attack thanks to Osha and Stannis, as the realm's best military commander is sent North to try and retake Winterfell.

* * * *

Depending on how much you wanted to fudge things you could either end up with something radically different or as an almost funhouse mirror of the actual story with similar results occurring in a different context, but still leading to a similar conclusion.

[goomba]

8 hours ago, Myself656 said:

My hunch is that if Robert were at the Tower of Joy, he would have been the first to die as Dayne and the other two Kingsguard focused on the usurper who killed Prince Rhaegar and stood by while his wife and other children were murdered. Perhaps this means more of Ned's companions than Howland Reed also survive the fight because of the focus on finishing off Robert or maybe its otherwise the same.

Agreed. Arthur was best friends with Rhaegar. He woulda lopped off Roberts head on sight with no words exchanged.

[Myself656]

The potential irony to me is that, if Robert went to the Tower of Joy and got himself killed, things would initially appear more stable... Ned doesn't have to lie to his wife about who Jon is so things are happier at home, Robert doesn't spend through the treasury and put the Kingdom into debt, Viserys and Dany aren't hunted like dogs across the Free Cities, Varys might have a harder time pulling off a fAegon coup with one of Rhaegar's children already king and Littlefinger has a less clear path to enrich himself and foment chaos without Robert's profligate spending and Cersei's incest mucking up the line of succession. Bran doesn't get crippled because Cersei and Jaime never visit Winterfell.

BUT I think in the long term it could end up even worse. No marriage to Khal Drogo means no dragon eggs or funeral pyre to birth them (presuming they're necessary to defeat the Others). No Jon in the Nights Watch means Mormont dies to the wights, no one else has an in to get intel on Mance's plans and the Nightswatch at Castle Black gets wiped out by Mance's army and a hundred thousand Wildlings descend upon the North (with a goal of getting as far south as south goes making them a threat to the Riverlands and even further south unless they're stopped). Without being crippled would Bran's greenseer/skinchanging abilities have manifested and given him a reason to seek out Bloodraven?

Heck, even on a personal scale... without the vileness of Joffrey and Cersei and a bonafide Prince/King being fostered at Winterfell would Sansa ever have the life experiences that would let her grow out of her spoiled princess stage even if she went to King's Landing with Jon and Ned? I ask because I suspect there would still be pressure, likely from Jon Arryn and ironically, Cat, to betroth Sansa to the young King Jon and, unlike Joffrey, Jon would not prove to be near the disappointment compared to the storybook princes and knights (further, Ser Selmey wouldn't be dismissed from service and with Jon Arryn and Ned managing things the Kingsguard would probably be filled with more honorable men in general). Still believing in the storybooks could end up getting her killed if things go south later without the chance to steel herself as a hostage in King's Landing.

By contrast, Arya would likely NOT go on her own soul-crushing journey... but we don't know yet how necessary that journey might be to the endgame of the real story either so that could be a good thing overall. Without Joffrey and Cersei, the butcher's boy wouldn't have been hunted down and she'd both still have Nymeria (and Sansa have Lady) and have never started her vengeance list. For that matter she might never have made the journey to King's Landing in the first place and never gotten started in real combat training. Conversely, if she remained at Winterfell she could end up dead right alongside Robb and Cat if the Wildlings besieged Winterfell (giants would make short work of the gates) or on the run with Bran, Rickon and Osha.

Heck... without the need for support against the crown, Robb would not have needed to send Theon to Pyke so Theon never has the conflicted loyalties and opportunity for betrayal that drops him into Ramsey's clutches.

One big question to ask in all this is, to what degree would 'destiny' play a role in events. How much of what happened in the story happened because it was meant to? Illyrio had the three dragon eggs before he gifted them to Dany for her wedding... might they still have ended up in a position to be hatched when the time was right? Was it even blood magic that restored them or was it the magic returning with the comet that would have allowed them to hatch in any fire because prophecy had need of them?

I don't have an answer to that. If destiny has a course then Robert's going to the Tower of Joy creates a different course for the river of events, but even diverted, that river will still meet the sea eventually and the same characters will reach their same destinies, just in different ways (ex. the hypothetical Wildling siege of Winterfell leading to Robb and Cat being killed, Bran perhaps being crippled and on the run in a manner that leads him up north to Bloodraven's weirwood and Stannis having to march forces north to retake Winterfell).

Or it could take a completely different course. For example, we don't even know the Others motivations for wanting to march south. If they're waking because terms of some long forgotten peace treaty were violated they could be unstoppable without Sam or Bran to reveal the terms that need to be restored -OR- they might never wake up at all because it was something Robert unknowingly did as King that actually broke the peace in the first place.

If the Others don't stir then a direwolf mother might not even need to venture south of the Wall and be killed by a stag so the Stark children never get their direwolves and Mance wouldn't need to gather all the Wildling tribes to march south either so there is no invasion from the north.

You could probably write an entire series of series just off the one change of Robert going to the Tower of Joy and ending up dead.

[RetconKillah]

Going what everyone is saying about the North. With Wildlings ravaging the North and Robb being a good military strategist but short-sighted leader he pisses off Roose Bolton who in turn assassinates Robb and Cat for Mance's mercy/loyalty. The wildlings move south causing Roose to be the, for lack of a better term, warden of the North. Sansa and Theon are captive in Winterfell under Ransay's brutal escapades (to mirror Joffrey and showRamsay). Theon is mutilated by Ramsay and becomes Reek. Arya escapes and starts her list except this list has the Boltons, Mance Rayder, probably a Thenn or two for good measure. Upon her journeys she meets Jacqen who was meant for the wall as a prison but escaped in the chaos, she saves his life and you know the rest...

Also with no Jon at the wall to protect him Sam is killed/raped by his brothers due to his cowardess. Also with no Lannister men looking for Arya Yoren is still around which is always a good thing. Hot Pie reaches the wall and makes sure the watch are all well fed and able to battle the wildlings

I know Ned was sceptical of what was going on beyond the wall, but would he, having a direct line to the king (who would listen to him) let the Night's Watch fall into such decay? Especially if Allister Thorne shows up in King's Landing with a severed hand still moving. I'm sure the watch wouldn't have third born sons from large families serving but it wouldn't be fully neglected.

 

[JonSnow4President]

If they don't have their falling out as posited in the OP, one of the following is true

1) The universe changes so Robert doesn't condone the killing of innocent Targaryen Children.

2) Ned doesn't care about the killing of innocent Targaryen Children.  

Kind of destroys the whole idea of the OP.

[lancerman]

The biggest thing is that it would destabilize the kingdom.

Regardless of what happened to Jon, Ned and Robert would be at odds. If Robert killed Ned, the North would never follow Robert, and I'd have to think Aryn's support would waver for the new King. Robert would be more reliant on the Lannister's than ever and he wouldn't have been able to solidify his support. Robert was only really lacking in Dorne at the end of the War (and a brewing Greyjoy Rebellion). Robert without the North,  Riverlands, likely the Vale, Dorne,

What's that leave him? The Crownlands which are a mess, the Stormlands, the Westerlands (and who knows if they stick with Robert or keep their distance). Maybe he can make peace with the Reach. I don't think he has a way to unify Westeros.

That alliance was huge for Robert's reign.

That's if Jon dies. The second option is Jon lives. You can't pretend he isn't who he is. Especially if Robert wants him dead. So now you have Targaryen loyalists with a rallying point. It splits the kingdom.

Robert's best interest is to suck it up and tell Ned to claim him as a bastard.

 

 

 

[A Ghost of Someone]

I think Robert would not have killed that baby, he would have been stopped by Ned but it would have ended their friendship and maybe the North might have become Independent because of it as well as a break up of Westeros to pre-Targ Kingdoms.