Jon Snow's potential love interests.

[The Fattest Leech]

51 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

GRRM explained an interesting point about resurrection and the effects of the last thought/mission/intention a person has:

"My characters who come back from death are worse for wear. In some ways, they’re not even the same characters anymore. The body may be moving, but some aspect of the spirit is changed or transformed, and they’ve lost something. One of the characters who has come back repeatedly from death is Beric Dondarrion, The Lightning Lord. Each time he’s revived he loses a little more of himself. He was sent on a mission before his first death. He was sent on a mission to do something, and it’s like, that’s what he’s clinging to. He’s forgetting other things, he’s forgetting who he is, or where he lived. He’s forgotten the woman who he was once supposed to marry. Bits of his humanity are lost every time he comes back from death; he remembers that mission. His flesh is falling away from him, but this one thing, this purpose that he had is part of what’s animating him and bringing him back to death. I think you see echoes of that with some of the other characters who have come back from death."

 

Not only did Jon make plans to rescue his sister, after trying and failing with Mance, but he also thinks of her before he dies.

If grrm does go with a Stark match, Arya has been his constant throughout. Jon's last thought before dying was GRRM's favourite line in the books, something Jon told Arya the last time they were together, something linked with Needle. 

You realize that this is about Lady Stoneheart, whom GRRM think is incredibly important to the story and that is why he wrote her in. In the quote you provided, GRRM even describes the flesh falling away from him. Hmmm, that sounds like another Cat we know.

There is no proof that Jon is Ned-dead, and actually plenty of book evidence that Jon is severely wounded and may not require a full dead-to-life rezzing like Berric and Catelyn.

Jon's last thought, his last word even, when the mutiny happened was "Ghost", like Robb and Greywind. So there is a high chance that Jon did warg into Ghost before life slipped from him and in doing so, his body went limp and face down... just like Bran describes his own body doing when he wargs Summer or Hodor... in the same book.

Jon's death and LSH/Berric's are not the same, or for the same reason. Not all death and rezzing is the same, or literal.

[a black swan]

41 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Apparently, where I've been, is hanging out in the wrong bathroom. All this time I've been using the men's room.

Sorry, I didn't mean to single you out specifically as ignoring anyone, but what I find amusing is that you think you've provided any text to support Jon/Arya. I haven't seen any on this thread, but I will check out the link you've provided later tonight when I have more time. 

LOL My mistake. 

I hope you enjoy the thread Ice Turtle started. 

 

[a black swan]

11 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You realize that this is about Lady Stoneheart

No. I'm pretty sure GRRM isn't either. He literally names the person he is speaking about. Yet somehow, you just see what you want. LS! It's about LS! The only important character that has been or will ever be resurrected. Lets not focus on the whole answer people!   

"My characters who come back from death are worse for wear."

"One of the characters who has come back repeatedly from death is Beric Dondarrion, The Lightning Lord." The rest of what I quoted follows. But who cares? LS. 

Quote

There is no proof that Jon is Ned-dead, and actually plenty of book evidence that Jon is severely wounded and may not require a full dead-to-life rezzing like Berric and Catelyn.

Yep. We'll see when Winds comes out. 

Jon's last thought, his last word even, when the mutiny happened was "Ghost", like Robb and Greywind.

Yes. I am aware of Ghost carrying his conscious/spirit/whatever before he actually dies.

Ghost wasn't his last thought. I mean, nice try. 

"Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold…" (Jon, A Dance with Dragons)

And there is no possibility his body dies from his wounds after he wargs Ghost? Gets resurrected, with some help from Bran or Mel or whoever. I mean, it's all speculation.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, DutchArya said:

No. I'm pretty sure GRRM isn't either. He literally names the person he is speaking about. Yet somehow, you just see what you want. LS! It's about LS! The only important character that has been or will ever be resurrected. Lets not focus on the whole answer people!   

"My characters who come back from death are worse for wear."

"One of the characters who has come back repeatedly from death is Beric Dondarrion, The Lightning Lord." The rest of what I quoted follows. But who cares? LS. 

Yep. We'll see when Winds comes out. 

Yes. I am aware of Ghost carrying his conscious/spirit/whatever before he actually dies.

Ghost wasn't his last thought. I mean, nice try. 

"Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold…" (Jon, A Dance with Dragons)

And there is no possibility his body dies from his wounds after he wargs Ghost? Gets resurrected, with some help from Bran or Mel or whoever. I mean, it's all speculation.

 

You were talking about resurrection and you used that quote, which I know references Berric, but THIS type of foreshadowing is for Stoneheart, not Jon because Jon's situation is different. Berric and LSH are linked because of the BWB situation. Berric is not linked to Jon at all. Apples to oranges.

I think it's you who seems to think this all revolves around a Jon/Arya love twist, and it doesn't and mostly because the author says so. So why is no one arguing that fact that the outline says Tyrion was supposed to be with Arya? How is ok to drop that part, and not the Jon/Arya part? Could it be perpetual wishful thinking?

Jon should come back more wolfish, like Ghost, because the last thing he most likely does is warg into Ghost. Why do I think this??? Because the book text has given us that foreshadowing capability with Greywind and Summer.

Stick them with the pointy end is a life lesson Jon teaches to Arya for how to stab someone, and it was a joke between them because it is obvious. What just happened to Jon??? Yes, he was stabbed, therefore, he is thinking back to his own lesson. Kinda bitter without any sweet and really frickin' sad.

Nice try. I never said no possibility, did I? Please don't put words in my mouth.

However, what we see from the book text provided as foreshadowing is what can happen in that situation. Varamyr and Bran give us these clues as well as thinking back to Raynald Westerling releasing Greywind during a mutiny. There is a good chance that Jon's body does not go dead-dead, but people think it is because it is limp while he wargs Ghost (as Bran taught us), and his body is healed enough for his spirit to to return, or until he is done talking with tree-Bran. Varamyr also tells us that he enters the trees when he is doing his warg-flipping thing. There is a good chance that Jon goes into the trees and has contact with Bran and learns a lot of useful information. And boy is Jon lucky that there are currently healing woods witches at the ready to help him with this. The boy is killed, the man is born. As I have pointed out in other threads, not all stab wounds are lethal, even in medieval days.

[kissdbyfire]

10 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

Your view is yours, if there are no credence in romantic undertone between Jon & Arya, then there won't be a lot of us thinking of it.  But there are...

And I wonder when did Aegon flick a switch and start looking at Rhaenys more as a lover than a sister?... let alone a lover he wants to marry in spite of his betrothal to his older sister, Visenya.

Your point makes zero sense. The Targs is a completely different situation, they're into incest, it's a tradition. Little Targ toddlers are told they're going to marry a sibling, so they have always looked at their siblings with, at the very least, the knowledge that it is a possibility. 

Also, regarding so many readers seeing these "clues", I think it's the other way about. It's not that there are clues that only a few picked up on, but rather that these few who did are wrong and seeing things that aren't there. In my opinion. 

[Winter's Cold]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You were talking about resurrection and you used that quote, which I know references Berric, but THIS type of foreshadowing is for Stoneheart, not Jon because Jon's situation is different. Berric and LSH are linked because of the BWB situation. Berric is not linked to Jon at all. Apples to oranges.

Jon dies of his wounds in his last chapter. He will definitely be resurrected somehow probably by Melisandre. Therefore, Jon is similar to LSH and Beric in that he dies and is subsequently resurrected. Thus, that quote likewise applies to Jon as well.

Quote

I think it's you who seems to think this all revolves around a Jon/Arya love twist, and it doesn't and mostly because the author says so. So why is no one arguing that fact that the outline says Tyrion was supposed to be with Arya? How is ok to drop that part, and not the Jon/Arya part? Could it be perpetual wishful thinking?

In the outline, Tyrion loved Arya but Arya did not love Tyrion. They were never supposed to be together.

Quote

Jon should come back more wolfish, like Ghost, because the last thing he most likely does is warg into Ghost. Why do I think this??? Because the book text has given us that foreshadowing capability with Greywind and Summer.

Stick them with the pointy end is a life lesson Jon teaches to Arya for how to stab someone, and it was a joke between them because it is obvious. What just happened to Jon??? Yes, he was stabbed, therefore, he is thinking back to his own lesson. Kinda bitter without any sweet and really frickin' sad.

Before his stabbing, he was marshaling the Night's Watch to rescue Arya and defeat Ramsay. In that light, his last thoughts post-stabbing indicate that he's still thinking about Arya as she was the main motivation for his actions. The line "stick them with the pointy end" comes from his last meeting with Arya before he left Winterfell to join the Night's Watch. I agree that it's bitter and sad but that's primarily because he believes that he'll never get to see his beloved sister Arya again.

 

[Bear Claw]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

Also, regarding so many readers seeing these "clues", I think it's the other way about. It's not that there are clues that only a few picked up on, but rather that these few who did are wrong and seeing things that aren't there. In my opinion. 

Yes, reading the books it never dawned on me that Ayra (less so Sansa) could ever turn out to be a romantic interest for Jon. It was only after the outline that I looked back to see if there were any "clues". It is not like Ygritte, and Val who are very clearly presented as romantic interests. Those are just obvious. However, who knows? The thing is these books have so much depth. There have been other examples of foreshadowing that have been so subtle that I did miss it.  I also found Jon's response to Ygritte's question about bedding his sister as somewhat telling. His response should have been "No". That was a yes or  no question. It was a question about incest which obviously people have strong feelings about. If he grew up believing it was wrong and taboo, why doesn't he say no ? In this situation, it is not what he says that is suspect, but what he doesn't say. Maybe it means nothing, but his answer (lack of ) leaves room for doubt. 

[The Fattest Leech]

On 7/28/2016 at 11:10 PM, Winter's Cold said:

Jon dies of his wounds in his last chapter. He will definitely be resurrected somehow probably by Melisandre. Therefore, Jon is similar to LSH and Beric in that he dies and is subsequently resurrected. Thus, that quote likewise applies to Jon as well.

In the outline, Tyrion loved Arya but Arya did not love Tyrion. They were never supposed to be together.

Before his stabbing, he was marshaling the Night's Watch to rescue Arya and defeat Ramsay. In that light, his last thoughts post-stabbing indicate that he's still thinking about Arya as she was the main motivation for his actions. The line "stick them with the pointy end" comes from his last meeting with Arya before he left Winterfell to join the Night's Watch. I agree that it's bitter and sad but that's primarily because he believes that he'll never get to see his beloved sister Arya again.

 

1. Open for debate and plenty of proof either way. The power of the old gods will help Jon. Not R'hllor. 

2. Read the chapter again. It starts with Ghost acting slightly aggrissive and out of sorts, just like before the wight attacked Mormont. Something was going to happen even without Jon's declaration to go south. This happens before the PL is read by Jon. Both Marsh and Wick act super strange during the mutiny, crying and hands up to say "not me". 

3. Jon put his direwolf away who would have protected him from harm. As Jon is reading the PL he also thinks of his other family members. Yes, he is obviously closer to Arya because they were both outcasts and she is like Lyanna. 

and yeah, super sad. 

[CaliWolf]

I really don't get the whole Jon/Arya relationship thing. Reading the books you obviously get the sense they love each other more than they love their other siblings. But that doesn't mean they love each other any more than a typical brother-sister relationship. Arya never really liked Sansa that much, and Jon obviously didn't because Sansa was a total bitch towards him. This all played a role in Sansa losing Lady too, which I view as symbolic of her kind dying in a sense. Plus Jon Knows Robb is dead, and he believes Bran and Rickon are dead. So Arya is the last remaining family he has. Of course he's going to cling to the memories of her, and want to do everything in his power to save her, its his little sister! 

As far as Jon's death is concerned, I definitely believe a part of him/his soul will die upon his resurrection. It would be bad writing if he is just revived with absolutely no change to his character. I think that either he will become more focused on a centralized objective and not concerned with anything else (like Lady Stoneheart or Beric are. His objective would be defeating the Others) or Ghost will need to die to save him (Ghost being the part of his soul that dies) in some type of magic similar to Mirri Maz Duur performed. I think that he is definitely Azor Ahai who wields Lightbringer (LC of the Nights Watch), and that ultimately he will die in the end as the last hero. So I really don't think he will have another love interest. 

[Arya Targaryen]

1 hour ago, CaliWolf said:

But that doesn't mean they love each other any more than a typical brother-sister relationship.

Forget about any possible future romantic feelings - I know it upsets lots of people. But the Jon/Arya love is everything but typical brother/sister relationship. Jon/Robb or Jon/Bran is a typical sibling relationship: the first one with the rivalry, but also deep love and trust in each other. The latter is a big borther/little brother thing, where Jon looks after Bran, teaches him, cares about his feelings, etc.

But Jon/Arya is different on so many levels. The one thing that stood out for me, is the way they finish each other's sentences. This is not a sibling thing - they are soul mates. They don't just know each other well, to know what the other might think or want or do - they do think the same way. I dare say, they love each other more than any other pair of siblings in-story. And that doesn't mean the rest don't have any sibling love - it's just that whatever is between Jon and Arya, it's much more than just a regular sibling relationship. And it definitely will have a meaning, whatever it might be.

It may not become romantic. Right now, if I could put money on Jon/Arya not happening, I would. That doesn't mean that I refuse to see the possibility in it - after reading the first book (right after I saw Season 1, during which I realized R+L=J), my first thought was that Jon and Arya should become a pair (knowing they are only cousins), and it's still my ideal ship for them. But I mostly gave up hope that it will really happen. 

[Chib]

I ship Jon/Robb  lollll ok Robb please come back as a corpse... 

Just kidding

But honestly I think Jon/any of his sisters (or cousins) is creepy. 

[CaliWolf]

1 minute ago, Arya Targaryen said:

Forget about any possible future romantic feelings - I know it upsets lots of people. But the Jon/Arya love is everything but typical brother/sister relationship. Jon/Robb or Jon/Bran is a typical sibling relationship: the first one with the rivalry, but also deep love and trust in each other. The latter is a big borther/little brother thing, where Jon looks after Bran, teaches him, cares about his feelings, etc.

But Jon/Arya is different on so many levels. The one thing that stood out for me, is the way they finish each other's sentences. This is not a sibling thing - they are soul mates. They don't just know each other well, to know what the other might think or want or do - they do think the same way. I dare say, they love each other more than any other pair of siblings in-story. And that doesn't mean the rest don't have any sibling love - it's just that whatever is between Jon and Arya, it's much more than just a regular sibling relationship. And it definitely will have a meaning, whatever it might be.

I disagree. I think Jon/Arya have a normal older brother- little sister relationship. And by normal I basically am meaning non sexual fantasy type relationship. Obviously their relationship is a very good one in that they know each other extremely well, they trust each other, they protect each other, etc. That is what siblings do though. IDK if you have any sibling but I do and I can tell you right now that when it comes to sisters most brothers are very protected. And most siblings that are inseparable have the same relationship qualities these two have. The fact they think the same way is why they are close. I think if anything that is further trying to show R+L=J because Arya is described as being very much like Lyanna, and Lyanna being Jon's mother is another reason they are so close. Arya will follow Jon anywhere ( just like Nymeria was following Ghost, who was the clear Alpha). There is absolutely no sexual interpretation on Jon's end. At all. It's arguable that Arya has a bit of a crush on Jon, but that's about it. They are just best friends who have a bit of a father-daughter aspect to their sibling relationship. I think you see that type of relationship all the time in siblings in the real world.

[Arya Targaryen]

2 hours ago, CaliWolf said:

 Arya will follow Jon anywhere ( just like Nymeria was following Ghost, who was the clear Alpha). There is absolutely no sexual interpretation on Jon's end. 

Of course there is no sexual interpretation on Jon's end, not yet, anyway. Arya was 9, when he last saw her. But by the time they next meet, Arya will be a woman grown (at least, flowered), and quite possibly around the age Lyanna was when Rhaegar fell in love with her at Harrenhal (13 - she is around 12 now, at the end of ADWD). I agree, that on Jon's part it might be some unconscious affection towards Arya because Arya is so much like his mother. But it can be, that Jon actually inherited his taste in women from his real father 

And just because you brought up Ghost and Nymeria: Yes, Ghost is the Alpha male of the wolf pack. Nymeria will follow him, definitely. But Nymeria also is an Alpha female - you do know, what the Alpha male and female do in a wolfpack, right?

[the conquering bastard 25]

On 7/26/2016 at 8:47 AM, TheDemonicStark said:

Giving how many shippers there are for Jon Snow, I have been thinking about who Jon Snow could end up with by the end, as we all know he will return, and R+L=J will be confirmed. So, I've complied a list of possible love interests for him.

Sansa Stark: Unlikely. Neither has interacted with the other throughout the whole book series once. They barely even are in the same chapter together at all.

Arya Stark: Might have been the original end game pairing, but even less likely then Sansa x Jon. Jon was raised with Arya, and regards her as his little sister. They share a close brother sister relationship, and I would prefer if it doesn't blossom into romance. Seriously, family love is what they feel for one another. Arya hasn't even had her first period as well, for Christ sake's! I don't want another Ceresi x Jamie relationship, even if they are just cousins.

Daenerys Targaryen: Neither one knows the other exists. Jon has heard the rumours of dragons, and that is about it. Plus, he wouldn't be comfortable marrying his aunt. He was raised in the North, where that is frowned on.

Margaery Tyrell: She's the widow of Joffrey. Seriously, why would he marry Joffrey's widow?

Elia Sand: I had this idea because it actually seems rather symbolic. Jon marrying the niece of the woman his father left for his mother, who is also the namesake of his bride. I liked the idea for a while, but dismissed. Again, neither knows about the other. 

Jeyne Westerling: Hmm....the former Queen of the North. Not sure at all, really. She might not survive long enough, for all we know.

So, given that I have exhausted all the popular ships, and with Ygritte never coming back, we have two potential love interests left.

Val: Defiantly a strong possibility. He is attracted to her, and she does respect him as well. This does stand a chance of happening. Provided Val survives until Jon returns, of course. No one is safe from the GRRM Reaper, people.

Jeyne Poole: I think this one could happen because if Jeyne does arrive at the Wall and Jon returns from the dead, she'll see him as a protector, and probably fall madly in love with him. We have a heavily traumatised girl who has been trained as a whore by Littlefinger, married to Ramsay Bolton, was forced to pretend to be someone she is not, and then the person she thought would protect turns out to be dead, only to come back to life? Yeah, she'll see him as the hero from one of the stories she grew up hearing about, of brave heroes saving a damsal in distress from her evil husband. Of course she'll be head over heels in love with him! The only question is, what will Jon do? He thought about sending Arya to Bravoos, but once he learns it was Jeyne Poole the whole time, well, that option goes out the window. No one would take care of a steward's daughter, let alone one who has been trained as a whore. There isn't really anywhere he can send her that is safe. The Wall is going to be a battlefield once the Others attack, and there are plenty of people who would take advantage of her, or even rape her. So, he may end up taking her with him to protect her. He would feel he has a duty to her. Whether or not he does marry her is up to debate, I admit. He might do it before Ramsay dies, because Jeyne's marriage to the Bastard of Bolton is technically false, as Ramsay is supposed to be married to Arya Stark, not Jeyne Poole. If he does marry her, it would probably be out of pity and because he feels compelled to do so. This would also put him in such an awkward position once R+L=J is confirmed, as he would be unable to marry the highborn daughters of certain great houses, and these great houses would not exactly except Jeyne Poole as their queen for obvious reasons. Trust GRRM to subvert the "common girl becomes queen" trope. One potential clue for this relationship is that Jeyne is the fArya, and we all know what the final shipping was going to be.

Tell me what you think.

here's one that know one every thinks about but I think makes for an intrersting plot twist. 

Myranda Royce. Would shore up his political need in the Vale, comes with the support of the various Lord Declarnent houses, has Stark blood. IS in need of a strong husband and as we have seen she's jealous of Sansa and her engagement to Harry the heir. Would be interesting to see Myranda betrothed to Jon and Sansa green with envy.

[The Dew]

"Once you go Wildling you never come back" - Apart from Ygritte, Val is a keeper and Lord Crow seems to like her a lot in many different ways. "A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her". I believe Jon really likes Val.

[BeeStark]

I'm all about shipping Jon with Arya, but the finishing each others sentences bit is something I do with my sister, brother, cousins, and friends often. So that as one of the reason why they are "meant" to be is a little weak.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, BeeStark said:

I'm all about shipping Jon with Arya, but the finishing each others sentences bit is something I do with my sister, brother, cousins, and friends often. So that as one of the reason why they are "meant" to be is a little weak.

This. And he does the same with Gendry (and then she recalls doing it with Jon). So if that means Jon is her love interest, it could also mean the contrary, that Gendry is. (or else that he is only friends with both).

[Winter's Cold]

2 hours ago, BeeStark said:

I'm all about shipping Jon with Arya, but the finishing each others sentences bit is something I do with my sister, brother, cousins, and friends often. So that as one of the reason why they are "meant" to be is a little weak.

True, it's definitely not exclusive to lovers. But it does show that the connection between Jon and Arya is much stronger than the one between Jon and Sansa. Thus, it is a reason that Arya is better suited to be one of Jon's love interests than Sansa.

[TheDemonicStark]

35 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

True, it's definitely not exclusive to lovers. But it does show that the connection between Jon and Arya is much stronger than the one between Jon and Sansa. Thus, it is a reason that Arya is better suited to be one of Jon's love interests than Sansa.

She is a child! She hasn't had her period yet at all!

[IceFire125]

25 minutes ago, TheDemonicStark said:

She is a child! She hasn't had her period yet at all!

When she does flowered... "he can't call me little sister anymore" will have even more of a profound meaning.