Sansa: Why not the Dreadfort?

[House_Tony_Stark]

This is just me analyzing the northern story and how it can best be fit into 14 episodes. I think that Sansa was serious when she said "No one can protect me" and we caught a glimpse of this when she wanted to be included in the battle planning despite not being a warrior or a leader. So here is my theory on how she can best grow into power while taking up the least amount of screen time.

In episode one we pick up with Little Finger catching Sansa as she is leaving the King of the North dinner. He plants an idea in her head that she has been robbed of her birthright and she will never be anything more than a sidekick while she is with Jon. Lady Brienne of Tarth also arrives back in the North with news from the Riverlands and Little Finger feeds her a scheme. "Sansa technically you are the last surviving Bolton and your mother had ties to the Tully's.  Why not use all of this to help yourself and your brother?" Then she asks him what he gets out of this and he tells her that he will support her with the Knights of the Vale if she will take his offer to one day sit on the Iron Throne with him.

Little Finger and Sansa then ride for the Dreadfort with Lady Brienne as her personal queens guard and at the gates Little Finger does the talking. "This is Sansa Bolton & sister to the King of the North. We do not want to fight and you men and women are honor bound to fight for her. Then they open up the gates and Sansa rips down the Bolton banners and begins her own house similar to Karstaks who were originally Starks who went to Karhold. She wants everyone to know she is no longer anyone's victim and names herself Sansa DreadStark (lame but cool). Little Finger then leaves her a contingent of knights and rides back for the Vale to discuss all that has happened with the Vale Lords and Sweet Robin. 

Once she has settled in she sends a raven to Jon and informs him that the Riverlands will be critical the North and the Knights of the Vale will assist her soldiers of the Dreadfort in taking it and would like his support. They then ride for Riverrun and along the way gather support from those still loyal to House Tully. After they defeat the Lannister garrison that was left in Riverrun Sansa and Little Finger announce their marriage and proclaim themselves the new River Lords. They will then control much power as he will technically rule the two territories also, Harrenhal and the Fingers and Sansa will have ties to Winterfell & the Dreadfort.

And at this point there is not much that Kings Landing can do because they will have their hands tied trying to fight Danny and Danny will take heavy losses fighting a war with Kings Landing and the Iron Islands. Little Finger then tells Sansa that we will rally all of our forces and strike at whoever comes on top in this conflict once they are weakened and take the Iron throne for ourselves. Then in a swing of events Danny marries Jon, Sansa kills Little Finger in the bedroom, and the seven realms are united again as the White Walkers bring down the wall. The Long Night starts and the series ends there.

 

[Bear Claw]

8 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

So here is my theory on how she can best grow into power while taking up the least amount of screen time.

After hearing all of the negative comments that were made at SDCC this weekend, I have to admit I  like this idea. I certainly don't want to see a war or struggle for power up North. However, I feel that Sansa is a Stark, more so than Jon, actually.  I really liked Ned, and I feel that one of his rightful heirs needs to be in charge of Winterfell (maybe Bran or Arya  if not Sansa). Just my personal feelings, but I want to see a true Stark rule the North. 

[Marada78]

10 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

So here is my theory on how she can best grow into power while taking up the least amount of screen time.

Actually I thought something similar by myself, only I don't feel it is needed to involve dreadfort in this scenario. Next littlefinger scheme is to get rid of Jon and to do that he will try to involve him in the Battle of the two Queens. He will probably try to involve Sansa in this scheme trying to plant the idea of reconquering the riverlands in her mind. Maybe the Vale will go in war to reconquer the Riverland in the name of Sansa and Jon will have the obligation to side with the Vale. And it may seems easy to conquer the riverlands with North+Vale toghether and Lannisters distracted by some Dragons, but the variable here is Euron and where he will decide to battle. I guess an option for him would be also trying to conquer the riverlands. Anyway the plan to have Jon die in battle will fail as he is almost immortal on the battlefield and littlefinger will change his scheme to a Purple Wedding 2.0 where he will probably try to assassinate him during the victory celebrations. But Sansa that until now has played along littlefinger knowing every details and not stopping LF scheme to kill Jon will at the last time invert the cups of wine and Littlefinger will die by his own venom.

[House_Tony_Stark]

3 hours ago, Marada78 said:

Actually I thought something similar by myself, only I don't feel it is needed to involve dreadfort in this scenario. Next littlefinger scheme is to get rid of Jon and to do that he will try to involve him in the Battle of the two Queens. He will probably try to involve Sansa in this scheme trying to plant the idea of reconquering the riverlands in her mind. Maybe the Vale will go in war to reconquer the Riverland in the name of Sansa and Jon will have the obligation to side with the Vale. And it may seems easy to conquer the riverlands with North+Vale toghether and Lannisters distracted by some Dragons, but the variable here is Euron and where he will decide to battle. I guess an option for him would be also trying to conquer the riverlands. Anyway the plan to have Jon die in battle will fail as he is almost immortal on the battlefield and littlefinger will change his scheme to a Purple Wedding 2.0 where he will probably try to assassinate him during the victory celebrations. But Sansa that until now has played along littlefinger knowing every details and not stopping LF scheme to kill Jon will at the last time invert the cups of wine and Littlefinger will die by his own venom.

I only like the Dreadfort scenario because it ties up the North story. Sansa gets that, Wildlings get last Hearth, and Karhold is forgiven then you can focus on rebuilding the northern defenses as Jons story. 

I think Little Finger would need a legitimate reason to send forces to the Riverlands and officially open war on the Lannisters. The DF would be a quick way for Sansa to get her own army.

[Rubicante]

I hope Jon's first order of business as King in the North is to execute Sansa on the grounds of being a whiny, stupid know it all.  She did agree to marry Ramsay after all.

[Knight's King]

I think Harald Karstark's head will decorate Winterfell. The Stark way is the old way. He will spare the rest of the family and Alys or a version of her will marry a wildling. I hope it won't be Tormund because I love the interaction between him and Brienne. Also I really want to see a House Giantsbane. xd! House Umber was complicit in the death of Rickon and I can't see Jon forgiving that. I could see him letting any living relatives live as smallfolk or exile them to the South.

The Dreadfort and Last Hearth will hopefully go to House Seaworth and the newly formed House Giantsbane. The leftover of Bolton/Umber men could go to Bear Island to help replenish House Mormont's troops or send them to Castle Black and let Edd deal with them. The Wall always needs "good" men. The wildlings could easily serve Jon or Tormund,  Davos would be pretty lenient (because of his "low birth" origins) and House Karstark wouldn't have much of a choice. Or they might form the mountain tribes like from the books.

Sansa will be important. She knows how to play the game and is only getting better. She has a knowledge of Littlefinger and King's Landing and can advise Jon on politics. Even Podrick Payne can help in this regard with his vast knowledge of Southern houses thanks to Tyrion. She can't be blamed for marrying Ramsay, she didn't have much of a choice.

[TheLastLibrarian]

19 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

So here is my theory on how she can best grow into power while taking up the least amount of screen time.

So, all this imagination is just a dream for sansa taking the least amount of screen time and not taking the time of the favourite character?  there is nothing more in story about the Dreadfort, Dreadfort is dead when the boltons are dead, the next seasons are all about KL and the north, the north is not her story, she will LF and she will go to King's landing and become the queen 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

There's no way it's happening.  Sansa is a central character and she'll be interacting with other central characters.  Not exiled for the rest of the series to the home of her rapist-abuser and his turncloak father, which we've never even seen on screen and which there is no need to ever see or even talk about again, other than to say it's as dead and gone as Bolton. Sansa and Jon BOTH want the Bolton name destroyed and forgotten forever.  Having Sansa rule as "Lady Bolton" is utterly ridiculous.  Sansa, for her part, would rather die, and Jon would make no such demand on her under any circumstances because he's not an asshole who would force that upon his family.

I also know you're very, very concerned about the small folk denizens of the Dreadfort and their apparent undying loyalty to the Boltons.  But I think this is a pretty ridiculous concern in the grand scheme.  For one, Ramsey has certainly had his pick of murder / torture / rape victims among them.  I bet there are a lot of them that are pretty damn happy he's been taken out.  Secondly there is what Jorah Mormont said in the books "It is no matter to them (smallfolk) if the high lords play their game, as long as they are left in peace".  Yes, they will be upset about the deaths of their sons who were drafted in to the service of the boltons - but they will be as angry at the Boltons as at the Starks.  

If the Starks judge it necessary to destroy the Dreadfort to put an end to any thought of a return of some Bolton 3rd cousin, they can put the smallfolk up somewhere pleasant to live out their days, or help them move the closest major city, town, or castle.  I honestly don't think it will be an issue.  There is certainly need of them to continue to grow their harvest and prepare for winter.  Alternatively, allow them to live out their remaining days at the Dreadfort if they wish, though that place has no lord nor will it ever again.  Or, give it to someone and start a new house.  House Giantsbane if such a thing happens seems more likely to be at Last Hearth (assuming Umbers are extinct which we don't know), but it could be the Dreadfort.  

[Lord Lannister]

Yeah I'm sure any rape victim would love to be sent off to their abuser's home where they tortured people as a family legacy.

[House_Tony_Stark]

11 hours ago, Rubicante said:

I hope Jon's first order of business as King in the North is to execute Sansa on the grounds of being a whiny, stupid know it all.  She did agree to marry Ramsay after all.

I would prefer this also but Sansa has end game raid boss drop plot armor lol.

[House_Tony_Stark]

10 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Yeah I'm sure any rape victim would love to be sent off to their abuser's home where they tortured people as a family legacy.

Umm....Winterfell was his home also and where all this happened to her at. I'm not sure how the Dreadfort is any worse lol, and the purpose of going would be to take his legacy and turn it into hers.

[House_Tony_Stark]

10 hours ago, Knight's King said:

I think Harald Karstark's head will decorate Winterfell. The Stark way is the old way. He will spare the rest of the family and Alys or a version of her will marry a wildling. I hope it won't be Tormund because I love the interaction between him and Brienne. Also I really want to see a House Giantsbane. xd! House Umber was complicit in the death of Rickon and I can't see Jon forgiving that. I could see him letting any living relatives live as smallfolk or exile them to the South.

The Dreadfort and Last Hearth will hopefully go to House Seaworth and the newly formed House Giantsbane. The leftover of Bolton/Umber men could go to Bear Island to help replenish House Mormont's troops or send them to Castle Black and let Edd deal with them. The Wall always needs "good" men. The wildlings could easily serve Jon or Tormund,  Davos would be pretty lenient (because of his "low birth" origins) and House Karstark wouldn't have much of a choice. Or they might form the mountain tribes like from the books.

Sansa will be important. She knows how to play the game and is only getting better. She has a knowledge of Littlefinger and King's Landing and can advise Jon on politics. Even Podrick Payne can help in this regard with his vast knowledge of Southern houses thanks to Tyrion. She can't be blamed for marrying Ramsay, she didn't have much of a choice.

See I don't know that this would be a great idea and is the basis of why I would send Sansa. Ramsey was able to amass an army of 5000 so assuming half of those were his own men you have 2500 men. So that means there are most likely also 2500 women at the Dreadfort and probably at least 1000 old men & children. Bear Island could only muster 70 men so it would probably be dangerous to send a bunch of men who are not loyal there and outnumber them.

And I think Davos would rather stay in Winterfell, he is not a Northern man and does not have an heir. If something were to happen to him it's a recipe for chaos. Last Hearth I say should be where the WIldlings go because they are familiar with the area. It's been the place where they have raided for years. And it would isolate them from most of the North who don't exactly like them anyway.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

26 minutes ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

See I don't know that this would be a great idea and is the basis of why I would send Sansa. Ramsey was able to amass an army of 5000 so assuming half of those were his own men you have 2500 men. So that means there are most likely also 2500 women at the Dreadfort and probably at least 1000 old men & children. Bear Island could only muster 70 men so it would probably be dangerous to send a bunch of men who are not loyal there and outnumber them.

No, it doesn't mean that at all.  Even if you're correct that there are 2500 Bolton soldiers (which we don't know), those aren't people that actually live at the Dreadfort.  That would be literally impossible.  There are probably no more than a hundred - maybe two at a stretch - who'd actually live in such a castle.  

Soldiers in the Bolton army are levied from the lands overseen by the Boltons, and from their allies levies.  In the case of larger houses like Bolton, in many cases these lands would not even be directly managed from the Dreadfort, but rather by some minor knight/lord/keep/mayor.  These minor knights/lords can stay right where they are, under new management - whether that be a previously existing prominent house, or a newly installed ones.  And the people themselves live in the same villages they and and their ancestors have lived in for centuries.  That won't change either.  

Again the smallfolk usually don't care - and sometimes don't even know - who the heck it is they are supposed to have "fealty" to.  They just know that once in awhile some asshole in armor tells them to grab their rakes or hoes and what armor they can find, throws a sword or a bow at their feet, and tells orders them to march somewhere.  If those who have lost loved ones blame anyone, you bet it will be Lord Bolton or his underling that conscripted their boys, not whoever he was fighting.  

If you want more info about what being a peasant in a war is like, Septon Meribald's conversation with Brienne from the books is instructive (don't worry it's not a spoiler). 

http://genius.com/George-r-r-martin-a-feast-for-crows-brienne-v-broken-men-speech-annotated

 

 

[House_Tony_Stark]

12 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

No, it doesn't mean that at all.  Even if you're correct that there are 2500 Bolton soldiers (which we don't know), those aren't people that actually live at the Dreadfort.  That would be literally impossible.  There are probably no more than a hundred - maybe two at a stretch - who'd actually live in such a castle.  

Soldiers in the Bolton army are levied from the lands overseen by the Boltons, and from their allies levies.  In the case of larger houses like Bolton, in many cases these lands would not even be directly managed from the Dreadfort, but rather by some minor knight/lord/keep/mayor.  These minor knights/lords can stay right where they are, under new management - whether that be a previously existing prominent house, or a newly installed ones.  And the people themselves live in the same villages they and and their ancestors have lived in for centuries.  That won't change either.  

Again the smallfolk usually don't care - and sometimes don't even know - who the heck it is they are supposed to have "fealty" to.  They just know that once in awhile some asshole in armor tells them to grab their rakes or hoes and what armor they can find, throws a sword or a bow at their feet, and tells orders them to march somewhere.  If those who have lost loved ones blame anyone, you bet it will be Lord Bolton or his underling that conscripted their boys, not whoever he was fighting.  

If you want more info about what being a peasant in a war is like, Septon Meribald's conversation with Brienne from the books is instructive (don't worry it's not a spoiler). 

http://genius.com/George-r-r-martin-a-feast-for-crows-brienne-v-broken-men-speech-annotated

 

 

Wrong.

Ramsey explicitly stated on the show that his Army was 5000 in the battle of Winterfell. The only supporters that he had were the Umbers and Karstarks. So just thinking logically here.........at least half of the army of 5000 would be his men correct? And to be a human being you have to have two parents. So multiply 2500 by two and you have 5000 parents alone.....even if you say half of them are dead that's still 2500 elderly. And this is not including children, so it's safe to say the Dreadfort must have a pretty high population. If Winterfell had any soldiers at all also remember that they just fought a war and lost all their soldiers. Then the Iron Borne sacked the city and killed any defenders that were there.

And I'll provide a source for this next statement.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dreadfort

" Centuries ago, the Boltons rose up against King Harlon Stark, the Dreadfort held out for two years under siege before the Boltons surrendered.^[3] "

You can't last two years under siege unless you have a very high population because you would not be able to stop a big army from getting in........And a century is 100 years, that quote says CENTURIES meaning it's been more than 200 years since that happened. If you had 1000 people leaving in the Dreadfort 200 years ago and each of them had two children on average every 40 years it explains the population.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

1 hour ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

Wrong.

Ramsey explicitly stated on the show that his Army was 5000 in the battle of Winterfell. The only supporters that he had were the Umbers and Karstarks. So just thinking logically here.........at least half of the army of 5000 would be his men correct? And to be a human being you have to have two parents. So multiply 2500 by two and you have 5000 parents alone.....even if you say half of them are dead that's still 2500 elderly. And this is not including children, so it's safe to say the Dreadfort must have a pretty high population. If Winterfell had any soldiers at all also remember that they just fought a war and lost all their soldiers. Then the Iron Borne sacked the city and killed any defenders that were there.

And I'll provide a source for this next statement.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dreadfort

" Centuries ago, the Boltons rose up against King Harlon Stark, the Dreadfort held out for two years under siege before the Boltons surrendered.^[3] "

You can't last two years under siege unless you have a very high population because you would not be able to stop a big army from getting in........And a century is 100 years, that quote says CENTURIES meaning it's been more than 200 years since that happened. If you had 1000 people leaving in the Dreadfort 200 years ago and each of them had two children on average every 40 years it explains the population.

None of that has anything to do with what I wrote.

People don't live in castles for the most part - just the servants, with some traders who come and go.  People live in, and farm, the surrounding lands.  Where in the world do you think the food is coming from to feed these people if they all live IN the Dreadfort?  They don't freaking commute from the Castle to farm on the daily.  They live in their villages and cottages.  Most of the army are peasant farmers.  Among the cavalry and commanders a few live in the castle (like Winterfell's Master at Arms) but most live in keeps away from the castle. 

During a siege, people often hide in castles so yes, the population will be a little higher.  But usually it's just the soldiers - the women and noncombatants are left in their villages to fend for themselves.  Having too many people in the castle will make it much harder to withstand a siege (since you'll run out of food) so is very counter productive.  

 

[MoreOrLess]

I can potentially see the future of the defeated northern houses as a plot point for early next season but I suspect it won't be a massive one and as has been said Sansa seems too important a character to be side-lined like that, especially as she has links to so many people further to the south.

My guess would be that the plan will be for Sansa to marry Robin and cement the alliance between the North and the Vale, perhaps LF, circumstance or maybe Sansa herself throws a screw in the works and whether the marriage happens or not she gets more drawn into the south conflict acting as a bit of a bridge between the different parts of the story.

[Lord Lannister]

4 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

Umm....Winterfell was his home also and where all this happened to her at. I'm not sure how the Dreadfort is any worse lol, and the purpose of going would be to take his legacy and turn it into hers.

Umm.... the Dreadfort is the home of the Bolton legacy. You wouldn't be able to walk down a hall without seeing a flayed man carved somewhere. You'd have entire rooms that were designed to torture people. You'd have people there who were raised to think such behavior is normal. The name itself it telling. The legacy even more so.

So as funny as it may be(lol?) to you, yes there's a huge difference between Sansa living at Winterfell, her home, and being sent off to the Dreadfort to be Lady Bolton, her rapist's home and left alone in the memories of not only her victimization, but Theon's and countless others going back for generations.

[Knight's King]

An army of 5000 is able bodied men who can lift a spear at least. Women, elderly and children don't count in military statistics. And I seriously doubt Ramsay would leave 1000 soldiers at the Dreadfort when he knew that Jon wanted Winterfell back and they could stand a  two year siege. I never said to outnumber Mormonts men just replenish and why would men still be loyal to a dead house? I'm sure most of the truly loyal died on the battlefield. Remember Maester Walkon he was terrified of Ramsey and if the rest of the smallfolk felt that way too then would support Jon as well.

No Sansa stays at Winterfell. If Jon dies she needs to be there to carry on the Stark legacy as warden of the North at least. Davos could stay at Winterfell too but still hold the Dreadfort in title. There is still plenty of time for to marry a northern lady and plant his seed. Consolidating the North is crucial to preparing for The Night King. He needs all of the northern houses behind. Having a House Giantsbane and Seaworth would be great for Jon because they are both fiercely loyal to him.

[House_Tony_Stark]

On 7/27/2016 at 3:01 PM, Knight's King said:

An army of 5000 is able bodied men who can lift a spear at least. Women, elderly and children don't count in military statistics. And I seriously doubt Ramsay would leave 1000 soldiers at the Dreadfort when he knew that Jon wanted Winterfell back and they could stand a  two year siege. I never said to outnumber Mormonts men just replenish and why would men still be loyal to a dead house? I'm sure most of the truly loyal died on the battlefield. Remember Maester Walkon he was terrified of Ramsey and if the rest of the smallfolk felt that way too then would support Jon as well.

No Sansa stays at Winterfell. If Jon dies she needs to be there to carry on the Stark legacy as warden of the North at least. Davos could stay at Winterfell too but still hold the Dreadfort in title. There is still plenty of time for to marry a northern lady and plant his seed. Consolidating the North is crucial to preparing for The Night King. He needs all of the northern houses behind. Having a House Giantsbane and Seaworth would be great for Jon because they are both fiercely loyal to him.

I didn't say they did, I was replying to someone saying they should raze (destroy) the castle. If you have 5000 or half as man soldiers in your army then that means they came from two parents. And if any of those 5000 people have kids that means you have a lot of people who are affiliated with the Dreadfort.

Let's say 40 of those 70 soldiers died and you send 30 dreadfort men to Bear Island. Half of your fighting force are now men who were just a few weeks/months ago your enemy. Imagine how one of the widows would feel to see the men who killed their husbands walking around town. And why would they remain loyal to a dead house? The same reason there have been bandits all throughout history, self preservation. Right now the Bolton Castellan per lore still holds the Dreadfort and we don't know if there were any cousins left there.

And Davos could not do that because he would have to first solidify the situation in the Dreadfort. He can't be in two places at once, he would need to either be there trying to hope someone does stab him in his sleep. Or with Jon knowing he can really make a difference among a friend. Just my opinion, but if it's not Sansa there is no one to retake the Dreadfort because Jon does not have the resources to fight another war currently.

Like you said consolidating the North is crucial for preparing to fight the others. Sansa being a Bolton is the best way to get a castle into the fold without bloodshed.

[Knight's King]

Ramsay said he had 5000 men. He is also a known liar. He admits this to Theon. We don't know how many men he has left after the battle of the bastards or how many soldiers are at the Dreadfort. I think the truly loyal men to Ramsay not House Bolton are dead on the Battlefield. I don't know why men loyal to Roose Bolton wouldn't submit to the King in the North. To turn brigand when the whole North could easily swat you down seems very unlikely especially if they desire they're "self preservation". Roose Bolton, Ramsay, Walda and Locke are all dead. There aren't any cousins on either ASoFaI or GoT so it's safe to say no. Maester Wolkan is the closest shown character and he was terrified of him. It's also safe to say the smallfolk have no love for Ramsay either. Because he murdered Roose, Walda, their newborn son and many young women who were daughters or sisters of the smallfolk at the Dreadfort.

You're right Davos needs to stay by his side but that's not the point I've been making over and over. House Seaworth needs to be an established house in the North not for the Others but for the future. He should be given the Dreadfort and a northern wife to create a house loyal to him in the FUTURE!!! Remember House Umber and Karstark would be practically gone and they were the Starks most loyal bannerman with the largest military force. He needs to replace them with new loyal houses. Maybe not right now but at least after the war with the others. If I were Jon I would have Davos get an heir. 

Your making the assumption that Ramsay left a large force at the Dreadfort. I completely disagree. I know Ramsay, he likes to toy with his enemies and completely squash their chances at victory in the cruelest manner. He isn't stupid but extremely cocky because he had twice the men Jon had and probably doesn't expect much of a fight from Wildlings. Since the Dreadfort can withstand a large siege I think the maximum amount of soldiers he would leave behind is 300. And I seriously doubt he left even that many. I don't believe Sansa or anybody else for that matter, thinks of her as Bolton. Why would they open their gates for the sister of the King in the North especially without Ramsay? They would if Jon pardoned them and he would because he needs every sword he can get for the wars to come. Not to mention the whole surrounding North would be unified so why would they want stay trapped and loyal to a dead house. I also believe Jon would leave Sansa at Winterfell with Brienne and not take her to treat. 

We aren't debating facts or statistics, we're debating what we think Ramsay, Jon, Sansa and the remaining Bolton soldiers and smallfolk would do. I believe Ramsay to be smart and cruel but cockiness is his downfall. Remember when Theon and Sansa ran away Roose said "you played your games and you lost them". I believe Jon to be fair and just when dealing with his enemies especially when he knows a hard war is coming. I believe the remaining men and smallfolk would do what is in their best interest which is surrender. Also I can't see any of them having love for a man who murdered their liege-Lord, his wife and baby and have been terrorizing/murdering the townsfolk. It's like when Grey Worm and Tyrion are talking about the masters. GW says "you trust the masters" and Tyrion replies "No but I trust their self interest". But alas the only people who would really know are D&D and George R. R. Martin  that is until season seven.