The Tower of Joy Discussion

[Clegane'sPup]

3 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Purple eyes are hungry eyes.

 

"I feel the magic between you and I" Rhaegar to Lyanna (presumably)

Auck, dude/dudette you presume much <chuckle>. Nose in the air, and an eye roll.

[HK-47]

Observation: This thread easily misreads as The Tower of Joy Division.

[RedPriest]

The kidnapping/diversion of Lyanna and Rhaegar, seems to have been a bit convenient. I mean, the rebellion would  probably haven't happened, and even if it did, Rhaegar who was loved by the smallfolk, and the lords might well have been crowned king, as opposed to the Targaryens being driven out of Westeros. The event dishonoured Rhaegar, and started the rebellion. Two birds with one stone, for any enemy of the Targaryens 

[Jon Snow Nothing]

This is what I think about the whole Rhaegar and Lyanna situation:

• Did Rhaegar kidnap Lyanna or did she go of her own will?

Neither. Rhaegar saved her from Aerys. Aerys wanted to use her like he used Brandon, under the pretext that she was TKoTLT and had commited treason.

• Did Rhaegar kidnap her at all? 

See above.

• how did she get there?

After a time, I don't believe they stayed there all the time, but rather went from place to place. When she was already too big with Jon inside her belly, they settled on the ToJ.

• What was the promise Lyanna made Ned?

To never reveal who Jon's father was and to protect him from any harm. Remember that Ned had seen what happened to the daughet of Elia and Rhaegar and their supposed son.

• How did Ned know where to go?

Ashara Dayne. She never thought her brother would defend Lyanna and baby that way, she might have known something here and there but not the whole story.

Howland Reed knew something.

• Why was nearly half the Kingsguard guarding it?

Because they believed Jon was the new King, neither accepting Robert as King or Viserys. They may have know something we as readers don't know.

• What happened at the ToJ?

A battle?

• Why was she there in the first place?

Because she needed a place away from Aerys and the Rebels to have her baby in peace.

• What implication does this have on the story?

It seems few people know that Jon is the son of R and L...

• What did Lyanna die of?

From childbirth, just like Joanna Lannister and Rhaella Targaryen ^_~

[RedPriest]

One of the reasons the Jon theory hasn't actually been fully conformed, is that there doesn't really seem to be a point in keeping the thing secret. The problem is, he's in the Night's Watch, which revokes all titles and rights. Also, he would still be a bastard, and wouldn't find it easy to prove that. The bit about R rescuing L from A is interesting, and you have a point.

[purple-eyes]

2 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

This is what I think about the whole Rhaegar and Lyanna situation:

• Did Rhaegar kidnap Lyanna or did she go of her own will?

Neither. Rhaegar saved her from Aerys. Aerys wanted to use her like he used Brandon, under the pretext that she was TKoTLT and had commited treason.

• Did Rhaegar kidnap her at all? 

See above.

• how did she get there?

After a time, I don't believe they stayed there all the time, but rather went from place to place. When she was already too big with Jon inside her belly, they settled on the ToJ.

• What was the promise Lyanna made Ned?

To never reveal who Jon's father was and to protect him from any harm. Remember that Ned had seen what happened to the daughet of Elia and Rhaegar and their supposed son.

• How did Ned know where to go?

Ashara Dayne. She never thought her brother would defend Lyanna and baby that way, she might have known something here and there but not the whole story.

• Why was nearly half the Kingsguard guarding it?

Because they believed Jon was the new King, neither accepting Robert as King or Viserys. They may have know something we as readers don't know.

• What happened at the ToJ?

A battle?

• Why was she there in the first place?

Because she needed a place away from Aerys and the Rebels to have her baby in peace.

• What implication does this have on the story?

It seems few people know that Jon is the son of R and L...

• What did Lyanna die of?

From childbirth, just like Joanna Lannister and Rhaella Targaryen ^_~

that rhaegar "rescuing" lyanna does not make much sense. you think all people are just too stupid to distinguish a rescue and a kidnapping? and why would they keep silent towards Stark if rhaegar is simply doing a rescue? it only makes the plots over-complicated. 

[RedPriest]

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

that rhaegar "rescuing" lyanna does not make much sense. you think all people are just too stupid to distinguish a rescue and a kidnapping? and why would they keep silent towards Stark if rhaegar is simply doing a rescue? it only makes the plots over-complicated. 

eh, well it's not like we're strangers to over-complicated stuff. Both theories have problems with them.The kidnapping theory;

•  Vague circumstances around kidnapping
• Rhaegar an obvious scapegoat (if you were planning to kidnap somebody, would you drw attention to yourself and the persn you were planning to kidnap?)
• Why would Rhaegar go to the obvious risk of transporting her across the country, when he could kept her in the Red Keep
• Very erratic thing to do, even for a Tagaryen, especially when he had a wife and kids already

And as for the rescuing story;

• He brought her to the ToJ, because it was his only stronghold.
• He got to the KG, and gave them orders before his father could
• On the other hand, it does seem a bit odd that he wouldn't at least inform the Starks
• He never explained his actions or rebelled against his father, pretty much getting killed for him

I personally don't think it's as simple as R kidnapping L, or rescuing her, but you guys are entitled to your opinions. What do you think?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think it was an elopement, And that post Roberts Rebellion and Robert being crowned as King, it was dressed up as a Kidnap. Because Robert simply could not stomach the truth. 

If we look at the evidence it seems that a few people actually speak of them (R&L) in a way which does not frame her as a victim.  We are told in TWOIAF that on the turn of the year Rhaegar set out with a half dozen of his closest companions. Which tells us this was a personal matter. It happens not long after Elia is declared unable to birth more children. And the Maester who has written the text of TWOIAF words it like this. That the prince "fell upon" Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Which very much sounds like a heinous crime of kidnap and supports the rape narrative Robert Baratheon favours.  And given the source here is biased due to being written specifically for Robert and his kin. We can assume that wording was chosen exactly for that reason. 

But we then have Barristan Selmy who was with Rhaegar on his journey from KL to the Trident telling Dany that Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna. Barristan was in a position to discuss with the Prince his and Lyanna's relationship And he has no real reason to lie to Dany regarding their relationship. He isn't simply sucking up to her, as he shows us he is quite prepared to tell her the negative things as well as the good when he says he will tell her her of the truth about her father Aerys one day, the bad and the good. He also tells her - Rhaegar most of all when he is saying about her ancestors whom he views as the Good.  Which given that Barristan is pretty traditional when it comes to chivalry seems somewhat odd IF the prince did in fact kidnap and rape Lyanna. And he more than anyone else living had the time and opportunity to talk with Rhaegar about their relationship. 

And then we have Danaerys herself. 

Quote

Side by side the queen's procession and Hizdahr zo Loraq's made their slow way across Meereen, until finally the Temple of the Graces loomed up before them, its golden domes flashing in the sun. How beautiful, the queen tried to tell herself, but inside her was some foolish little girl who could not help but look about for Daario. If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly. Even if her captain was mad enough to attempt it, the Brazen Beasts would cut him down before he got within a hundred yards of her.

Here we have Dany making the procession to the Temple of the Green Grace for her wedding to Hizdahr, a political match which she feels no passion for. And what she fantasises about is her lover, the man whom she does desire. She looks for Daario in the crowd and tells herself that IF he loved her he would carry her off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl. 

This gives away the story Dany was told by Darry & Viserys. Which is likely the Targaryen version of events. Where can this version have come from? Well Darry was at KL, and brother to one of the KG. He was master at arms and taught Rhaegar himself. And he and Rhaella only left KL after the Trident was lost, meaning he too had opportunity to talk with Rhaegar upon his return to KL. So we must assume Dany's version of Rhaegar Carrying his Northern Girl off at swords point, a story evoked in her by the imminence of being wed to a man whom she does not want, comes from Willem Darry, and Viserys who though a child at the time, surely was visited by his elder brother before Rhaegar left for the Trident? Who at 8 years old would be old enough to remember his big brother telling him where he had been and what he had done. So the story Dany has been given comes from two people who would likely have directly been told from Rhaegar himself, and her story seems to drip with romance and passion. A lover rescuing his beloved from an unwanted marriage, carrying her off at sword point. Why Swordpoint? well, it gives the allusion of the maiden being innocent in the elopement. Or does she mean maybe by At Swordpoint - the threat to her guards/companions to allow the girl to go with him. unhindered & unfollowed. 

Then we have the vision of Rhaegar dying with Lyanna's name upon his lips. Seems like love not the power games of rape. 

And finally we have the traditional method of elopement. That a pair of lovers who were forbidden to marry or who dared not even ask their respective families for permission, would elope, and stay hidden until a pregnancy was undeniably visible. This ensured that no one could say that the marriage could be set aside, because of non consummation. It left both families in the awkward position of having to either accept the marriage or condemn their children to shame, dishonour and bastardy for their grandchild.  We also have this in the world history with Jhaehaerys and Shaera, who thought it easier to seem forgiveness than permission. And in Rhaenyra and Daemon who married in haste somewhere her father could not put a stop to it (on dragonstone) and did so knowing he would not have given his blessing, and their son Aegon was born within the same year.  

The fact Rhaegar and Lyanna hid away hints at an elopement in this traditional sense, one which was very much real world historically accurate. Hell it's the reason gretna green exists!  I think the reason they stayed hidden so long was simply due to the outbreak of war, and had things not gone that way they would have reappeared as soon as her bump was visible and announced their marriage.  

And I think Barristan is how Ned found her not Ashara. We have no reason to think Ashara knew where they were or could even somehow contact Ned in Kl and tell him where to find her. But Barristan was at the Trident with Rhaegar, a man whom he had known since he was born. Whom the prince would have trusted, and who it is completely feasible that he would confide the whereabouts of Lyanna to. 

[Jon Snow Nothing]

8 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

that rhaegar "rescuing" lyanna does not make much sense. you think all people are just too stupid to distinguish a rescue and a kidnapping? and why would they keep silent towards Stark if rhaegar is simply doing a rescue? it only makes the plots over-complicated. 

I think some people are very very stupid yes, lol, especially people in Westeros. The Rhaegar + Lyanna love affair does not make any sense because they lived quite apart from each other and R+E had just had a baby, and the "Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna" is just ridiculous.

Please tell me WHY would Rhaegar kidnap Lyanna when his PTWP is still 3 months old? Lyanna was not going to get married, it was her brother. Why Lyanna? If he was suddenly mad as his father, because only a mad man would do that, he could choose any other woman. And he was not mad, we know that from Jaime's thoughts and some other people thinking or talking about Rhaegar. Also, I doubt Hightower would defend a mad man's child on the TOJ - I will not even mention the rest of the KG because they were close friends to Rhae, so please, let me understand the sense in this theory.

Please tell me HOW would they fall in love and run away together and why did he took her off at swordpoint. Lyanna is not a Sansa, she knew how to ride. And after the tourney they did not meet. Also, it would be much much better if she ran away to meet him, from Riverrun. Nothing about this theory makes sense. They could have run away like all the other couples do, secretly.

But imagine this: Aerys hates the Starks already. He fears the North - remember he already has Dorne but the North is "going South" lol, Rickard marrying his son to Cately Tully and his daughter to Robert Baratheon. Aerys is mad. So mad that he ordered people to search for TKoTLT, just because of his paranoia.

Now he finds out who the Knight was. Perfect excuse to order his guards to bring Lyanna to him (secretly) and summon Lord Rickard. It would be the same scenario, only Lyanna in the place of stupid Brandon Stark. She would be accused of treason. The simple rescue was not so simple. Remember Aerys already had no sympathy for Rhaegar and thought his son wanted to depose him (and he was right). Aerys was mad but not dumb. If Rhaegar knows about this whole thing about Lyanna and he knows about TKoTLT - that story has to have a purpose! - he has to act quickly, and in doing so he is now a traitor too.

So this simple rescue explains: why Rhaegar took her off at swordpoint, the time it happened, why they had to run away and disappear from Aerys' sight... Yes, it is not so good as "mad Rhaegar" wants a third child (red herring by GRRM) and it's not so good as "horny Rhaegar and Lyanna" were in love. Especially for people who have a tendency to dislike Rhaegar. I understand. The guy was too good to be true. And wow, he was married. Poor Elia Martell, who was unable to have a child before getting married and I am sure many maesters knew this but Aerys did not want any child from Rhaegar*, he already wanted Viserys as his heir. Listen to Cersei, sometimes she is quite right at the point. Only a mad man would marry his first son to a sickly woman like Elia, a man who must have heirs. So even if you adore Elia Martell and thinks Rhaegar is the ultimate douchebag, try to put yourself in his shoes for a moment. Mad father, a wife that he does not love; said wife being too fragile to give babies to the Prince. Stupid mother who wanted her sickly daughter married to a prince, a daughter who was not fit to be a mother, and mad, mad and bad father who arranged a marriage to his son only for political reasons, not caring about the bride's health. Both Rhaegar and Elia had to obey their parents. Both suffered for this.

And yes, in this theory I embrace Rhaegar is not a saint. Neither is Lyanna. It makes more sense that they fell in love after being together and running away from Aerys. And the whole prophecy about the three heads are there just to make us more confused. Aemon said he could be one of the heads, the prophecy does not mention siblings, and if Rhaegar already had his PTWP (Aegon, who was three months old when his dad disappeared) why would he suddenly kidnap a girl betrothed to his cousin? Because she is "Ice"? Lol. Yes, this makes a lot of sense... not.

*remember how he treated Rhaenys when she was presented to her grandparents ("she smells Dornish").

[Ygrain]

9 hours ago, RedPriest said:

One of the reasons the Jon theory hasn't actually been fully conformed, is that there doesn't really seem to be a point in keeping the thing secret. The problem is, he's in the Night's Watch, which revokes all titles and rights. Also, he would still be a bastard, and wouldn't find it easy to prove that. The bit about R rescuing L from A is interesting, and you have a point.

Ned Stark was harboring the son of his king's most hated enemy for fourteen years, that would have been treason. And NW or not, Jon would still be considered a living threat merely for being who he is. After all, who is to say that Lords wouldn't be willing to turn a blind eye to the NW vows because Jon had no idea about his heritage when he was taking them? Or that he wouldn't slip and father a son who would raise a claim? Stannis also thought that he could rid Jon of the vows and make him Lord of Winterfell.

Given all this, Jon would be assassinated and there would be grave repercussions for the Starks.

 

[Jon Snow Nothing]

5 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Ned Stark was harboring the son of his king's most hated enemy for fourteen years, that would have been treason. And NW or not, Jon would still be considered a living threat merely for being who he is. After all, who is to say that Lords wouldn't be willing to turn a blind eye to the NW vows because Jon had no idea about his heritage when he was taking them? Or that he wouldn't slip and father a son who would raise a claim? Stannis also thought that he could rid Jon of the vows and make him Lord of Winterfell.

Given all this, Jon would be assassinated and there would be grave repercussions for the Starks.

 

I always had the feeling that when Ned is imprisoned, he wanted to send a letter to his nephew, about his heritage. Everything Ned believed in was false. He agreed to send Jon to NW because he thought there was not way back to Targaryen dynasty, but with Cersei and her children, and what she did to Robert, and knowing Jon as he knew, he might have thought the boy deserved to know the truth.

We have to think like this: Ned has to act quickly. He has just saw what happened to Rhaenys and Aegon (and Elia!). He knows who the Lannisters are and what they are capable of. It was treason but he made a promise. This was very important to him and he mentions this a lot, how much his promises costed him.

I wonder what Ned would do if he did not promised Lyanna to keep her son safe.

[RedPriest]

I guess Jon could be one of the heads of dragon; but i think that's as far as it goes; because Dany; would have to die; and even then; because Jon is a bastard you-cant escape this-Ned is an honourable guy; and even if he hadn't promised; i think he still would've taken care of Jon: But away from, the debate about R and L; there was another person in the tower: Who do you think it could have been:

[purple-eyes]

12 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

I think some people are very very stupid yes, lol, especially people in Westeros. The Rhaegar + Lyanna love affair does not make any sense because they lived quite apart from each other and R+E had just had a baby, and the "Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna" is just ridiculous.

Please tell me WHY would Rhaegar kidnap Lyanna when his PTWP is still 3 months old? Lyanna was not going to get married, it was her brother. Why Lyanna? If he was suddenly mad as his father, because only a mad man would do that, he could choose any other woman. And he was not mad, we know that from Jaime's thoughts and some other people thinking or talking about Rhaegar. Also, I doubt Hightower would defend a mad man's child on the TOJ - I will not even mention the rest of the KG because they were close friends to Rhae, so please, let me understand the sense in this theory.

Please tell me HOW would they fall in love and run away together and why did he took her off at swordpoint. Lyanna is not a Sansa, she knew how to ride. And after the tourney they did not meet. Also, it would be much much better if she ran away to meet him, from Riverrun. Nothing about this theory makes sense. They could have run away like all the other couples do, secretly.

But imagine this: Aerys hates the Starks already. He fears the North - remember he already has Dorne but the North is "going South" lol, Rickard marrying his son to Cately Tully and his daughter to Robert Baratheon. Aerys is mad. So mad that he ordered people to search for TKoTLT, just because of his paranoia.

Now he finds out who the Knight was. Perfect excuse to order his guards to bring Lyanna to him (secretly) and summon Lord Rickard. It would be the same scenario, only Lyanna in the place of stupid Brandon Stark. She would be accused of treason. The simple rescue was not so simple. Remember Aerys already had no sympathy for Rhaegar and thought his son wanted to depose him (and he was right). Aerys was mad but not dumb. If Rhaegar knows about this whole thing about Lyanna and he knows about TKoTLT - that story has to have a purpose! - he has to act quickly, and in doing so he is now a traitor too.

So this simple rescue explains: why Rhaegar took her off at swordpoint, the time it happened, why they had to run away and disappear from Aerys' sight... Yes, it is not so good as "mad Rhaegar" wants a third child (red herring by GRRM) and it's not so good as "horny Rhaegar and Lyanna" were in love. Especially for people who have a tendency to dislike Rhaegar. I understand. The guy was too good to be true. And wow, he was married. Poor Elia Martell, who was unable to have a child before getting married and I am sure many maesters knew this but Aerys did not want any child from Rhaegar*, he already wanted Viserys as his heir. Listen to Cersei, sometimes she is quite right at the point. Only a mad man would marry his first son to a sickly woman like Elia, a man who must have heirs. So even if you adore Elia Martell and thinks Rhaegar is the ultimate douchebag, try to put yourself in his shoes for a moment. Mad father, a wife that he does not love; said wife being too fragile to give babies to the Prince. Stupid mother who wanted her sickly daughter married to a prince, a daughter who was not fit to be a mother, and mad, mad and bad father who arranged a marriage to his son only for political reasons, not caring about the bride's health. Both Rhaegar and Elia had to obey their parents. Both suffered for this.

And yes, in this theory I embrace Rhaegar is not a saint. Neither is Lyanna. It makes more sense that they fell in love after being together and running away from Aerys. And the whole prophecy about the three heads are there just to make us more confused. Aemon said he could be one of the heads, the prophecy does not mention siblings, and if Rhaegar already had his PTWP (Aegon, who was three months old when his dad disappeared) why would he suddenly kidnap a girl betrothed to his cousin? Because she is "Ice"? Lol. Yes, this makes a lot of sense... not.

*remember how he treated Rhaenys when she was presented to her grandparents ("she smells Dornish").

a sickly woman who you diagnosed as "barren and too fragile to have children" even before marriage delivered two healthy children and survived.

a strong and young lyanna who you seem to favor died at first childbirth.

plus, who told you a sickly woman should be just treated as useless trash for marriage? isn't this a little bit too harsh?

by your logic all IVF clinics should be closed because a barren woman should just be abandoned.

and who can guarantee he or she would be heathy and strong forever?

and how did you decide Elia is not fit to be a mother?

really, you are the only person I have ever met on this forum who made these bold and unfair judgements, good for you!

and trust me , I have met a lot of people on this forum, with my over 6000 posts as proof.

[RedPriest]

By all accounts, the relationship between elia and rhaegar at the time of their death was healthy, and rhaegar was fond of elia, but not necessarily on love with her, just so you know. Purple-eyes, try and calm down a bit-everyone's entitled to their opinions, and this is just a book series after all.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

11 hours ago, RedPriest said:

 there was another person in the tower: Who do you think it could have been:

Well personally I think Gerold Dayne was there as squire. But aside from him, I'd hazard a guess at a few servants, a cook, perhaps a groom to care for the horses. 

[Jon Snow Nothing]

11 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

a sickly woman who you diagnosed as "barren and too fragile to have children" even before marriage delivered two healthy children and survived.

a strong and young lyanna who you seem to favor died at first childbirth.

plus, who told you a sickly woman should be just treated as useless trash for marriage? isn't this a little bit too harsh?

by your logic all IVF clinics should be closed because a barren woman should just be abandoned.

and who can guarantee he or she would be heathy and strong forever?

and how did you decide Elia is not fit to be a mother?

really, you are the only person I have ever met on this forum who made these bold and unfair judgements, good for you!

and trust me , I have met a lot of people on this forum, with my over 6000 posts as proof.

She was bedridden for SIX MONTHS after the first child and almost died from the second (that I think has died and was replaced by Ashara's boy).

Lyanna was never abducted or ran away according to this theory, remember? Also another point in favor of the theory is that Lyanna is only 15 when the "abduction and rape" or "love affair happening from nowhere" occurred. If Rhaegar wanted a third child he would have waited or chosen some other Northern girl.

She was not useless, she was a Princess of Dorne, but not fit for the Prince who must have heirs, it was mean to have them get married, from both her mother and his father.

She was not abandoned according to my theory, why can't you follow the logic of the theory instead of mixing your prejudiced thoughts? If Rhaegar saved Lyanna he did not intend to abandon his wife, he may have tried to get them too, we never know...

Elia is always mentioned as very fragile, flat chest, by that time a woman with a "flat chest" and no hips (not Elia's case, at least I haven't read that, but could be also) is not fit for having children. Some men in Westeros would not need an heir, but remember that Lisa Tully got married to Jon Arryn because she has proved to be fertile. This matter was very important especially when you consider Rhaegar's heirs would, in theory, be Aerys' heirs. Aerys was already planning to "educate" Viserys because he was young and more like his father, and he was paranoid about Rhaegar already.

You have met a lot of people on this forum, right, you mean you have tried to impose your ideas on them no matter what. We are just discussing the ToJ meaning and I gave my opinion. Of course you got nervous because you know I might be right...

 

[RedPriest]

I doubt that rhaegar would have shown Lyanna his favour in such an open way, and with a son already,he has no need to want any more heirs. There isn't any proof that Rhaegar was mad, or was going mad around the time of is death. So why does he crown Lyanna, and then disappear along with her? As far as I can find out, he hadn't seen her before the tourney,so it's a bit odd that he would deliberately slight his wife, and confuse the Starks. And if he wasn't mad, i doubt he would've drawn attention to the pair of them, just before vanishing with her. There were certainly other interests in this issue other than Rhaegar and Lyanna, and they seem to be playing an indirect part in this.

[purple-eyes]

On August 3, 2016 at 6:00 AM, Jon Snow Nothing said:

She was bedridden for SIX MONTHS after the first child and almost died from the second (that I think has died and was replaced by Ashara's boy).

Lyanna was never abducted or ran away according to this theory, remember? Also another point in favor of the theory is that Lyanna is only 15 when the "abduction and rape" or "love affair happening from nowhere" occurred. If Rhaegar wanted a third child he would have waited or chosen some other Northern girl.

She was not useless, she was a Princess of Dorne, but not fit for the Prince who must have heirs, it was mean to have them get married, from both her mother and his father.

She was not abandoned according to my theory, why can't you follow the logic of the theory instead of mixing your prejudiced thoughts? If Rhaegar saved Lyanna he did not intend to abandon his wife, he may have tried to get them too, we never know...

Elia is always mentioned as very fragile, flat chest, by that time a woman with a "flat chest" and no hips (not Elia's case, at least I haven't read that, but could be also) is not fit for having children. Some men in Westeros would not need an heir, but remember that Lisa Tully got married to Jon Arryn because she has proved to be fertile. This matter was very important especially when you consider Rhaegar's heirs would, in theory, be Aerys' heirs. Aerys was already planning to "educate" Viserys because he was young and more like his father, and he was paranoid about Rhaegar already.

You have met a lot of people on this forum, right, you mean you have tried to impose your ideas on them no matter what. We are just discussing the ToJ meaning and I gave my opinion. Of course you got nervous because you know I might be right...

 

Have you even read the book? and why are you so prejudiced over flat-chested and weak women? 

You kept saying Elia is flat-chested and weak and is not fit to have children, blablabla, but the fact is, she gave birth to two healthy children in only two years after marriage and she still survived and seems fine until her jerk husband screwed everything. almost a contrast,  a strong and young lyanna died immediately after first birth. 

and no, i am very sure you are not right. there is no such thing called"rhaegar disappeared with lyanna because aerys was hunting her and rhaegar rescued her but this somehow was recognized by people as he kidnapped her" . 

 

[Jon Snow Nothing]

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

Have you even read the book? and why are you so prejudiced over flat-chested and weak women? 

You kept saying Elia is flat-chested and weak and is not fit to have children, blablabla, but the fact is, she gave birth to two healthy children in only two years after marriage and she still survived and seems fine until her jerk husband screwed everything. almost a contrast,  a strong and young lyanna died immediately after first birth. 

and no, i am very sure you are not right. there is no such thing called"rhaegar disappeared with lyanna because aerys was hunting her and rhaegar rescued her but this somehow was recognized by people as he kidnapped her" . 

 

Wow, how old are you?

Of course I read the book. And maybe you need to read them again. It's subtle but it's there.

Tywin Lannister rejected her for Jaime, and remember Joanna was very close to Elia's mother, she knew the girl almost did not survive birth. A Princess of Dorne rejected by a Lannister. Why? Only because Cersei was going to marry Rhaegar in her father's mind? And in the end Aerys took away his heir by accepting him as a Kingsguard, the irony.

Catelyn is concerned if Robb's wife has good hips.

Lisa got married to Jon Arryn, despite not being a virgin anymore, because she proved to be fertile. Kevan Lannister thinks about Elia and Lyanna and he knows that Cersei would give Rhaegar the heirs he needed. Poor Elia is just a victim of her mother's ambition. She was never in love with Rhaegar, she only did her duty, putting her life on risk.

What you do not seem to understand is that I have an opinion about the facts presented on the book. I have the right to have an opinion. Nobody can say for sure what Rhaegar's actions were, and what purpose he had (and why the two KG who were his best friends followed him).

You believe they ran away. I believe that if they wanted to run away together Rhaegar would not need to take her at swordpoint and with KG by his side.

Some people believe that she was kidnapped. Even to kidnap a girl he didn't need to get her at swordpoint. Those theories, to me, make no sense, especially as you read more about who Rhaegar Targaryen was. And that he did mentioned to Aemon that Aegon was TPTWP. Even if the, imho, senseless theory of "third head" is right, GRRM needs to explain why would Rhaegar kidnap a 15 year old to have this "third head" and why before Brandon's marriage, and not wait until L + Robert marriage. And remember the heads needed not to be siblings.

So, again, I believe that Rhaegar did not need a third child, at least not when his supposed son was only three months old. I believe that Rhaegar did not fall in love with Lyanna at first sight, and that Lyanna was not stupid to run away with a married Prince. I also believe Aegon is not Elia and Rhaegar's child, but this is another story, another theory...

Please, you should be less agressive when confronting other people's theories and beliefs.

You know, we might never find out the truth because the author might never write about it. So why be so angry like this over fictional characters?

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

<snip>

Agree to disagree. And move on. Else kick back, drink a couple of margaritas and laugh. There have been at least 6000 posts like that.