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The Tower of Joy Discussion


RedPriest

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15 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

.Please, you should be less agressive when confronting other people's theories and beliefs.

You know, we might never find out the truth because the author might never write about it. So why be so angry like this over fictional characters?

Purple-eyes, chillax. We'll probably find out all about this in TWOW, so there's no need to be so harsh. What did you mean when you said you thought Aegon might not be Rhaegar and Elia's baby?

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2 hours ago, RedPriest said:

Purple-eyes, chillax. We'll probably find out all about this in TWOW, so there's no need to be so harsh. What did you mean when you said you thought Aegon might not be Rhaegar and Elia's baby?

Well, I am Jon Snow Nothing, not purple-eyes. Purple-eyes was talking to me as if I was an idiot who didn't read the book and did not have the right to believe in any theory that might get her upset.

I think Ashara Dayne is Aegon's mother. Yes, I know, too many baby swaps already in this story. I have some reasons to believe in this but this is a theory that might need more facts and more dedication. Let me only say that it was too convenient that Aegon is not only very Targaryen, and not a bit Dornish, and the fact that he is male. And that poor Elia was bedridden for six months after her first child yet she was able to deliver a healthy baby not long after.

That's it, I don't think it's a very strong theory, but I think there is a reason other than making Ashara as probable mother to Jon, to mention her pregnancy, and mention her at Harrenhal (Meera's story), and the color of her eyes, so many times. Selmy being in love with her.

It's funny how Selmy sounds so sure she had a stillborn "girl" and Winterfell people believe Ned would take her "son" from her, and that she died because she got depressed.

Sorry, I am sure you did not expect such a weak answer to your question.

 

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Howland Reed is mysterious and out of the picture because he knows too much, and GRRM isn't ready for what he knows to come out. That's literally all it is. It makes sense in-story too: Howland knows a big secret and stays off the grid to make sure he's never in a position to risk giving it away. The big secret probably isn't Jon, that was revealed far too early in the HBO series, so it's something else. It could be something to do with HR, Rhaegar, the prelude to Robert's Rebellion, or something totally unrelated. My own opinion is that this has something which places the blame for the war on somebody other than the Targaryens. Maybe Tywin Lannister. It's not that likely, but it'd be nice to put the blame for pretty much everything that happens in ASoIaF on him

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21 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Well, I am Jon Snow Nothing, not purple-eyes. Purple-eyes was talking to me as if I was an idiot who didn't read the book and did not have the right to believe in any theory that might get her upset.

I think Ashara Dayne is Aegon's mother. Yes, I know, too many baby swaps already in this story. I have some reasons to believe in this but this is a theory that might need more facts and more dedication. Let me only say that it was too convenient that Aegon is not only very Targaryen, and not a bit Dornish, and the fact that he is male. And that poor Elia was bedridden for six months after her first child yet she was able to deliver a healthy baby not long after.

That's it, I don't think it's a very strong theory, but I think there is a reason other than making Ashara as probable mother to Jon, to mention her pregnancy, and mention her at Harrenhal (Meera's story), and the color of her eyes, so many times. Selmy being in love with her.

It's funny how Selmy sounds so sure she had a stillborn "girl" and Winterfell people believe Ned would take her "son" from her, and that she died because she got depressed.

Sorry, I am sure you did not expect such a weak answer to your question.

 

Ashara's child would be the same age as Elia's Aegon, but Tyrion thinks fAegon younger than is claimed. Hinting that this boy is too young to be Aegon VI and thus also too young to be Ashara's child. Secondly Barristan has good reason to know the sex of Ashara's baby, he was at court, where all her previous companions and friends were (who are likely to be sent word of her delivery.)he has access to their inner sanctum as a KG and he has an invested reason is finding out what news was sent due to his feelings for her. Now might false news have been sent? of course it might, but there is no indication in story that this was the case, and all those who consider Jon a candidate for Ashara's child were not at court and have no reason to have sought out news of her delivery. 

Also Jon is too young to be Ashara's child, as we know she fell pregnant at the Harrenhall Tourney. Which we now know took place in the first quarter of 281. And Jon was born at the end of the rebellion, which happened more than a year later. People who think Jon might be Ashara's son only do so because they don't have enough information regarding her pregnancy, when it occurred, and/or Jon's age.

This is all left loose because of the secret of Jon's heritage, not because of fAegon.

Who has a perfectly plausible, text supported, and narrative compatible back story of his own. 

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2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Ashara's child would be the same age as Elia's Aegon, but Tyrion thinks fAegon younger than is claimed. Hinting that this boy is too young to be Aegon VI and thus also too young to be Ashara's child. Secondly Barristan has good reason to know the sex of Ashara's baby, he was at court, where all her previous companions and friends were (who are likely to be sent word of her delivery.)he has access to their inner sanctum as a KG and he has an invested reason is finding out what news was sent due to his feelings for her. Now might false news have been sent? of course it might, but there is no indication in story that this was the case, and all those who consider Jon a candidate for Ashara's child were not at court and have no reason to have sought out news of her delivery. 

Also Jon is too young to be Ashara's child, as we know she fell pregnant at the Harrenhall Tourney. Which we now know took place in the first quarter of 281. And Jon was born at the end of the rebellion, which happened more than a year later. People who think Jon might be Ashara's son only do so because they don't have enough information regarding her pregnancy, when it occurred, and/or Jon's age.

This is all left loose because of the secret of Jon's heritage, not because of fAegon.

Who has a perfectly plausible, text supported, and narrative compatible back story of his own. 

just be curious, did we get any new information recently about HH tourney so that we know now it took place in Jan, Feb or March?

Or you just conclude this from the World book?

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1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

just be curious, did we get any new information recently about HH tourney so that we know now it took place in Jan, Feb or March?

Or you just conclude this from the World book?

All that winter the crannogman stayed on the isle, but when the spring broke he heard the wide world calling and knew the time had come to leave. His skin boat was just where he’d left it, so he said his farewells and paddled off toward shore. He rowed and rowed, and finally saw the distant towers of a castle rising beside the lake. The towers reached ever higher as he neared shore, until he realized that this must be the greatest castle in all the world.”

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From the world book, if you sit down and piece together the information given about When elia gave birth and the tourney and when Rhaegar went after Lyanna it has to have been in the first quarter of the year. 

I'd dig it out and quote it, but my books are packed, still awaiting a completion date.. Actually we are off to sign and exchange contracts tomorrow. But are not moving for a couple of weeks. because of the chain.  I'm not sure if I can piece it together from A Search of Ice & Fire as I'm not sure what words to search for in order to pull up the paragraphs needed. 

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OMG I don't believe it (Full Victor Meldrew voice for that) I just worked it all out and found the quotes from a search of ice and fire and every thing and the internet ate my reply!!!

 

Basically the Tourney had to take place in months 3-5 of 281 in order for the time line of Elia's pregnancies and the revelation of when Rhaegar went to find Lyanna to work. So not strictly speaking first quarter, but the last month of the first quarter or the first two months of the second. My own reasoning had settled on month 3 of 281 as most likely of those options though I admit it could have been later and Elia's pregnancy was simply not showing or known of at the tourney.  But from the time line and known events Elia was only available in month 3 of 281 to be not expecting or be bed ridden from her previous birth. 

Firstly their betrothal is announced in 279, and they wed in 280, Rhaenys is born later in the same year, placing her birth at the earliest in month 9 of 280, add on 6 months bed rest and we are taken to month 3 of 281. Rhaegar sets out to find Lyanna at the turn of the new year in 282 ie month 1 week 1 of 282. And the quote which is important is this one:

Quote

 As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

Meaning Aegon was born in 281 and not 282 As previously thought, so given the tight time line between their marriage, Rhaenys's birth, that 6 month bed rest period and birthing Aegon within the year of 281 and month 3 through 5 of 281 is the only point Elia can both travel after Rhaenys's birth and not be or publicly be known to be with child; and so the Tourney must have happened in this window.

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On 7/29/2016 at 0:49 PM, Dorian Martell said:

Well, there is always the search function in the forum to see if someone has postes somethiogn about that previously............:laugh::laugh::laugh:
OK who am I kidding. Nobody searches here. Purple-Eyes sums up the salient points here.

well done sir. Concise and to the point 

Or... or you know... Look up, that works too. :blink:

Also highlighting this weeks AFOIAF General book discussion; "There are no Lemon trees in Braavos", "Dany and Jon are Twins", "Stannis is the Mannis Vs. 2076", "Where in the world is Gendry San Diego?", "Sansa Magical Dragon Queen Sorceress or Magical Dragon Empress Sorceress?", "Val is Jon's true super special Queens Consort and Dany has nothing to do with anything... NOTHING!!!", and "Dany is a Red Herring that has nothing to do with the story. (Same author as the previous one)"  Preston Jacobs will release a new video titled "Oops."

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3 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said:

All that winter the crannogman stayed on the isle, but when the spring broke he heard the wide world calling and knew the time had come to leave. His skin boat was just where he’d left it, so he said his farewells and paddled off toward shore. He rowed and rowed, and finally saw the distant towers of a castle rising beside the lake. The towers reached ever higher as he neared shore, until he realized that this must be the greatest castle in all the world.”

Ok, you know that, in this universe, the term of spring does not necessarily mean jan, feb and mar, right? 

spring (or another season) can happen in any time of the year and it can last several years as well. 

so far there is absolutely no proof that tourney happened in jan, feb or Mar. in fact, there is some sort of proof that tourney happened close to the end of the year 281, which give us two options: 1. rhaegar publicly shamed his heavily pregnant wife in order to woo Lyanna, 2. Elia delivered Aegon before she attended tourney with Rhaegar.  

 

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4 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Ok, you know that, in this universe, the term of spring does not necessarily mean jan, feb and mar, right? 

spring (or another season) can happen in any time of the year and it can last several years as well. 

so far there is absolutely no proof that tourney happened in jan, feb or Mar. in fact, there is some sort of proof that tourney happened close to the end of the year 281, which give us two options: 1. rhaegar publicly shamed his heavily pregnant wife in order to woo Lyanna, 2. Elia delivered Aegon before she attended tourney with Rhaegar.  

 

Months as we know them are totally irrelevant, they're based on Roman Gods. I don't feel 'spring broke' suggests he arrived at HH at the end of the year. I also don't think it proves or disproves much of anything..

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12 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Months as we know them are totally irrelevant, they're based on Roman Gods. I don't feel 'spring broke' suggests he arrived at HH at the end of the year. I also don't think it proves or disproves much of anything..

Exactly. There aren't any months, as far as i can see in ASolaF. There are only seasons, and years, which gives rise to the question, if they even have 365/6 days in their calendar, or how they decide how long their years are for that matter. I think we can all safely say that the tourney was in spring, but that's all.

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20 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Months as we know them are totally irrelevant, they're based on Roman Gods. I don't feel 'spring broke' suggests he arrived at HH at the end of the year. I also don't think it proves or disproves much of anything..

according to GRRM, month is similar to our month in this universe. so a year has 12 calendar months. but the seasons are messed up except it stillfollows the same order of spring to winter. a spring can start at any time and last any time. like a summer (the long summer in the GOT book) can be 10 years 2 months xxx days. 

"spring broke" can happen at any month of the year. and yes, it can happen in july, or sept or Dec. 

i think you are mixing our spring with their spring, they are two different things. 

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9 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

according to GRRM, month is similar to our month in this universe. so a year has 12 calendar months. but the seasons are messed up except it stillfollows the same order of spring to winter. a spring can start at any time and last any time. like a summer (the long summer in the GOT book) can be 10 years 2 months xxx days. 

"spring broke" can happen at any month of the year. and yes, it can happen in july, or sept or Dec. 

i think you are mixing our spring with their spring, they are two different things. 

But nothing can be proven, all we have is that it was spring. I highly doubt GRRM would place importance on this while never referencing anything as to it being at 'years end' or anything to this affect in regards to the time of the tourney..

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On 08/08/2016 at 7:58 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Ashara's child would be the same age as Elia's Aegon, but Tyrion thinks fAegon younger than is claimed. Hinting that this boy is too young to be Aegon VI and thus also too young to be Ashara's child. Secondly Barristan has good reason to know the sex of Ashara's baby, he was at court, where all her previous companions and friends were (who are likely to be sent word of her delivery.)he has access to their inner sanctum as a KG and he has an invested reason is finding out what news was sent due to his feelings for her. Now might false news have been sent? of course it might, but there is no indication in story that this was the case, and all those who consider Jon a candidate for Ashara's child were not at court and have no reason to have sought out news of her delivery. 

Also Jon is too young to be Ashara's child, as we know she fell pregnant at the Harrenhall Tourney. Which we now know took place in the first quarter of 281. And Jon was born at the end of the rebellion, which happened more than a year later. People who think Jon might be Ashara's son only do so because they don't have enough information regarding her pregnancy, when it occurred, and/or Jon's age.

This is all left loose because of the secret of Jon's heritage, not because of fAegon.

Who has a perfectly plausible, text supported, and narrative compatible back story of his own. 

Yes, I also think that this information about Aegon, Tyrion thinking he is too young, is very important. But at the same time, why would Gregor Clegane smash the baby's head? So it was only a coincidence and Varys and Illyrio (who sound a lot like Valyria when their names are together) had the idea after the boy was murdered in such a brutal way? I think Clegane knew the boy was not a Targaryen. Something about Elia always breastfeeding her babies makes me wonder how many people would know how Aegon looked like. Tywin knew a lot of things about Elia, this I am very sure. I am also very sure he told the Mountain to kill her. The way he said "she was nothing", made me think she was indeed very important.

Was Ashara in court when giving birth? Elia was not.

I don't believe Jon is Ashara's child but I think GRRM likes to put Wylla and Ashara everywhere as red herring, but something about them might bring some truth about so many mysteries.

I agree with the last sentence but I don't believe very much in this theory. It is not that it does not make sense, but to me it is far too complicated and, well, I have a feeling Aegon is really Aegon. When you read the first book there are many hints about all the events of the five books. Even that the North equals all the other six kingdoms together - so my theory of Aerys being paranoid and wanting to kill all Starks makes sense. He introduced Aegon too late, yes, but the fact that his head was smashed always had me thinking "why?" Why would a man kill a baby like this, it's so easy to kill a baby, and a baby who should be recognized as "dragonspawn"?

So very convenient to Varys and his friend, right? Something to think about...

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Yes, I also think that this information about Aegon, Tyrion thinking he is too young, is very important. But at the same time, why would Gregor Clegane smash the baby's head? So it was only a coincidence and Varys and Illyrio (who sound a lot like Valyria when their names are together) had the idea after the boy was murdered in such a brutal way? I think Clegane knew the boy was not a Targaryen. Something about Elia always breastfeeding her babies makes me wonder how many people would know how Aegon looked like. Tywin knew a lot of things about Elia, this I am very sure. I am also very sure he told the Mountain to kill her. The way he said "she was nothing", made me think she was indeed very important.

Was Ashara in court when giving birth? Elia was not.

I don't believe Jon is Ashara's child but I think GRRM likes to put Wylla and Ashara everywhere as red herring, but something about them might bring some truth about so many mysteries.

I agree with the last sentence but I don't believe very much in this theory. It is not that it does not make sense, but to me it is far too complicated and, well, I have a feeling Aegon is really Aegon. When you read the first book there are many hints about all the events of the five books. Even that the North equals all the other six kingdoms together - so my theory of Aerys being paranoid and wanting to kill all Starks makes sense. He introduced Aegon too late, yes, but the fact that his head was smashed always had me thinking "why?" Why would a man kill a baby like this, it's so easy to kill a baby, and a baby who should be recognized as "dragonspawn"?

So very convenient to Varys and his friend, right? Something to think about...

 

 

I think indeed it is deliberate that Gregor smashed Aegon's head in, It was deliberate on the authors behalf because he always intended upon introducing this story line, that Varys spirited the boy away and we meet him later on. Or should I say that Varys introduces a boy whom he proclaims as Aegon. The author needs a way to make it believable that the infant killed in KL could be mistaken for Aegon IF Varys tells the truth. This introduces doubt about what we have been told and allows for just enough speculation on the readers behalf to question the story of Aegon being murdered. 

Err Breastfeeding doesn't mean no one else ever see's the baby, I know they feed a lot, but they aren't permenantly plastered to your breast. lol. The imagary of Elia breastfeeding her baby is implanted in order to give the reader a certain sense of horror at the murders, Elia as the Madonna, Elia nurturing her infant son, and the brutality of what is done to them is juxtaposed directly with this image. It is the same reason Rhaenys is dragged out from under her fathers bed clutching her kitten. It is an abhorrent thought, a child, seeking her daddy's protection, but he isn't there, and clutching to her pet for comfort, just before being horrifically and painfully murdered. We envisage the screams as he drags her by the legs kicking all the time out from under the bed,and the cat  yowling and scratching in her hands as she inevitably grips it tighter. Before..... The knife.  The image of Elia nursing her son, is serene and beautiful, and marks her out as motherly, nurturing, innocent, and vulnerable - she has her breast bared, her delicate nature is conjured up in the image of her screaming as Clegane enters her chambers,and holding him closer, offering the security of her body, before he is ripped from her arms and brutally destroyed. And she is then raped with her sons brains all over the hands of his killer as he violates her. 

Yes I am quite sure he ordered the killings. 

What do you mean, something about them might bring some truth about so many mysteries? 

Lots of people think fAegon is real, but to me and lots of others, the evidence is overwhelming, and as complicated as the theory is, it all adds up, it makes sense, and it fits with the narrative, solves a lot of problems regarding character motivations, and answers questions about Varys and Illyrio. Crucially fo rme, there is actual text in the books which supports the theory. 

What purpose does fAegon being real serve? if fAegon is real who is Varys and why are he and Illyrio supporting the boy? Why would the GC support a true born Targaryen? Who is the cloth dragon, the mummers dragon, what lies will dany slay? What is the point in all that complicated back story with the Blackfyres, the carefully laid clues and the history between the two factions? 

What has the size of the North got to do with fAegon and if he is real or not?  

What text do you have to support the theory that Aerys was hell bent on irradiating house Stark? - Prior to Brandon's arrival in KL. 

He introduced fAegon at the point in the story which he was always intended to be introduced. This sub-plot isn't some after thought, it is carefully woven throughout the entire series and the novella's too if the Brightfyre theory is correct. 

This is in fact a documented baby killing method: It appears in the Bible, Psalms 137 7-9. It was documented during the colonisation of  south America that the Spaniards "Took babies from their mothers breasts, grabbing them by the feet and smashing their heads against rocks." The Khmer Rouge dashed babies heads in against trees during the killing fields. In Auschwitz Guards are documented as having snatched infants from their mothers arms and smashed their heads in against various things, Iron, concrete, into pavements, buildings etc. 

It isn't some weird an unusual method of baby killing, and incidentally it allows for the author to introduce a character later on who can be passed off as Aegon, due to his smashed in skull. Also note, Pycelle who was the royal Physician during the Infant Aegon's life time and certainly the man who would have examined him whilst they were in the Red Keep, to monitor his growth, to treat any sniffles etc.Was just killed by Varys.  If anyone knew how to recognise the child from his body alone who was alive up until ADWD it was him. Why has Varys killed Pycelle? What threat does the old Maester really pose? 

 

                                                                               

 

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1 hour ago, OuttaOldtown said:

But nothing can be proven, all we have is that it was spring. I highly doubt GRRM would place importance on this while never referencing anything as to it being at 'years end' or anything to this affect in regards to the time of the tourney..

he did throw some light on it. 

I guess you need to read or reread the world book (chapter: year of false spring). 

you will see that false spring lasted only less than two months. and after this two-month false spring, winter returned at the end of the year. 

this will place the tourney in the second half of the year. at least july or august. 

and yes, rhaegar publicly shamed his wife when his wife was heavily pregnant with his Promised Prince. 

 

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4 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

he did throw some light on it. 

I guess you need to read or reread the world book (chapter: year of false spring). 

you will see that false spring lasted only less than two months. and after this two-month false spring, winter returned at the end of the year. 

this will place the tourney in the second half of the year. at least july or august. 

 

I'm not talking about the timing of the false spring, I'm referring to Meera's telling of tKatLT which he left the Isle of the Faces when spring broke. Since we don't know exactly how long the return of winter lasted its not clear what time of year any of this occurred, and I'm not sure it matters since most of the events we question are equally unclear..

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1 minute ago, OuttaOldtown said:

I'm not talking about the timing of the false spring, I'm referring to Meera's telling of tKatLT which he left the Isle of the Faces when spring broke. Since we don't know exactly how long the return of winter lasted its not clear what time of year any of this occurred, and I'm not sure it matters since most of the events we question are equally unclear..

the timeline of course matters. 

at least it raises the level of Rhaegar's irrespinsibility and cold-bloodedness to a new height. 

what type of shitty husband would publicly flirt with another young woman in front of thousands of people when his wife is heavily pregnant and right there? 

 

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I think it is very dangerous in terms of supposition to assume Elia was pregnant, as I have already demonstrated the only point in the year she would have been not pregnant or on bed rest was month 3, and she could be expecting but it not be a known thing during the 4th and 5th months. But after that it would be known she was pregnant. Now If we assume as you are doing purple eyes that Elia was heavily pregnant because of the vague wording in that paragraph of the world book. Then why has it never been mentioned that she was with child at the Tourney? why would she be able to travel during the last trimester? medieval women spent mush of the last trimester confined in their chambers, abed attended only by their handmaids. But Elia was supposedly at a tourney in the riverlands? err, I doubt it. And that is before we account for the fact her previous pregnancy was precarious and left her bed ridden for 6 months. and the chances of her taking the risk of travelling in a wheelhouse to a tourney whilst close to the end of her second pregnancy is ludicrous.  I know you really dislike Rhaegar, and the idea of adding this huge insult to the already ugly crime of running off with another woman must be tempting. But it really is a stretch. The wording is ambiguous and flowery, and it is too vague to call it imo. 

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