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The Tower of Joy Discussion


RedPriest

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6 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

the timeline of course matters. 

at least it raises the level of Rhaegar's irrespinsibility and cold-bloodedness to a new height. 

what type of shitty husband would publicly flirt with another young woman in front of thousands of people when his wife is heavily pregnant and right there? 

 

My opinion is timelines are massively over-analyzed by the fan base especially when it comes to major keys to the story which occurred prior to the start of AGoT. Not saying they don't matter, but it's fiction, clues in the wording are way more important than many technicalities.. 

And as I've said many times to you, Ned doesn't reflect your very harsh opinion, he lost family members in this ordeal and would have every reason to think poorly of Rhaegar yet he doesn't. I will wait until the mystery is revealed to pass judgement..

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9 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think it is very dangerous in terms of supposition to assume Elia was pregnant, as I have already demonstrated the only point in the year she would have been not pregnant or on bed rest was month 3, and she could be expecting but it not be a known thing during the 4th and 5th months. But after that it would be known she was pregnant. Now If we assume as you are doing purple eyes that Elia was heavily pregnant because of the vague wording in that paragraph of the world book. Then why has it never been mentioned that she was with child at the Tourney? why would she be able to travel during the last trimester? medieval women spent mush of the last trimester confined in their chambers, abed attended only by their handmaids. But Elia was supposedly at a tourney in the riverlands? err, I doubt it. And that is before we account for the fact her previous pregnancy was precarious and left her bed ridden for 6 months. and the chances of her taking the risk of travelling in a wheelhouse to a tourney whilst close to the end of her second pregnancy is ludicrous.  I know you really dislike Rhaegar, and the idea of adding this huge insult to the already ugly crime of running off with another woman must be tempting. But it really is a stretch. The wording is ambiguous and flowery, and it is too vague to call it imo. 

ha, if you do not believe Elia can travel with a baby in her belly to the tourney, then right in 281, the same year of tourney, Elia somehow travelled in the Kingswood too and was attacked by brotherhood and somebody stole a kiss from her. then Arthur led an army and killed them. This happened right before the tourney and of course after her six-month bed rest. 

the point is, GRRM knew his timeline is a mess. So he did not want to talk too much about those characters which can show the timeline. 

did they mention little princess rhaenys at the tourney? no, not at all. where was she? 

And I highly doubt GRRM even remembered those timeline events about Elia. She is not very important, so maybe he just forgot those things about her. He did not do much calculation on her, that is why he kept things vague. 

aegon was born in the end of 281. Rhaenys was born in the end of 280. Elia had a half year bed rest. which means she immediately got pregnant after she can leave the bed. then she traelled to Kingswood, then arthur cleaned the brotherhood which can be a few months, then Jaime met Cersei and waited for around one month to get the news that he should show up in the tourney, then she travelled to Tourney. so of course Elia is at least in midterm pregnancy at the tourney. 

 

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10 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

My opinion is timelines are massively over-analyzed by the fan base especially when it comes to major keys to the story which occurred prior to the start of AGoT. Not saying they don't matter, but it's fiction, clues in the wording are way more important than many technicalities.. 

And as I've said many times to you, Ned doesn't reflect your very harsh opinion, he lost family members in this ordeal and would have every reason to think poorly of Rhaegar yet he doesn't. I will wait until the mystery is revealed to pass judgement..

of course he did not think poorly of rhaegar. that is his beloved sister's true love. 

Ned loved lyanna with his whole heart. if he were Rhaegar, Ned would absolutely abandon Cat for Lyanna too. of course he would not blame Rhaegar. he knew too well how attractive his sister is. every man would be willing to die for Lyanna, right? 

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29 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

of course he did not think poorly of rhaegar. that is his beloved sister's true love. 

Ned loved lyanna with his whole heart. if he were Rhaegar, Ned would absolutely abandon Cat for Lyanna too. of course he would not blame Rhaegar. he knew too well how attractive his sister is. every man would be willing to die for Lyanna, right? 

When does Ned's inner monologue state he was her true love? I must need a reread cause I thought Ashara, Cersei, Cat and Lynesse were the ravishing beauties of their time, and Lyanna was a kitchen drag even compared to Elia. You'd think such an awful man that Rhaegar was, not to mention handsome as can be, would be dropping his seed in every piece of ass he could find? 

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5 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

When does Ned's inner monologue state he was her true love? I must need a reread cause I thought Ashara, Cersei, Cat and Lynesse were the ravishingly beauties of their time, and Lyanna was a kitchen drag even compared to Elia. You'd think such an awful man that Rhaegar was, not to mention handsome as can be, would be dropping his seed in every piece of ass he could find? 

well, maybe rhaegar was really into wild and unmanageable northern young girl. you are not rhaegar, you do not know his taste. 

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2 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

well, maybe rhaegar was really into wild and unmanageable northern young girl. you are not rhaegar, you do not know his taste. 

You mean like Duncan Targaryen with Jenny? Like the song, you know, with flowers in her hair..

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38 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

ha, if you do not believe Elia can travel with a baby in her belly to the tourney, then right in 281, the same year of tourney, Elia somehow travelled in the Kingswood too and was attacked by brotherhood and somebody stole a kiss from her. then Arthur led an army and killed them. This happened right before the tourney and of course after her six-month bed rest. 

the point is, GRRM knew his timeline is a mess. So he did not want to talk too much about those characters which can show the timeline. 

did they mention little princess rhaenys at the tourney? no, not at all. where was she? 

And I highly doubt GRRM even remembered those timeline events about Elia. She is not very important, so maybe he just forgot those things about her. He did not do much calculation on her, that is why he kept things vague. 

aegon was born in the end of 281. Rhaenys was born in the end of 280. Elia had a half year bed rest. which means she immediately got pregnant after she can leave the bed. then she traelled to Kingswood, then arthur cleaned the brotherhood which can be a few months, then Jaime met Cersei and waited for around one month to get the news that he should show up in the tourney, then she travelled to Tourney. so of course Elia is at least in midterm pregnancy at the tourney. 

 

I think you are allowing your own preferences to dictate what you think of the timeline.  I am pretty dispassionate about Rhaegar and Lyanna and Elia. And what you are proposing is just too unlikely. 

Now as I said my books are packed, but this is from the Wiki. 

 

Quote

Around 280 AC/281 AC, Gerold was shot through the hand by Ulmer, an outlaw of the Kingswood Brotherhood, who went on to steal a kiss and some jewels from Princess Elia Martell of Dorne.[8]

Arround 280/281. That's pretty vague, when was she travelling through the Kingswood? is the book more specific? The only quote I can pull from search of ice and fire doesn't specify a year at all? 

Quote

Aye. I will." Ulmer, stooped and grey-bearded and loose of skin and limb, stepped to the mark and pulled an arrow from the quiver at his waist. In his youth he had been an outlaw, a member of the infamous Kingswood Brotherhood. He claimed he'd once put an arrow through the hand of the White Bull of the Kingsguard to steal a kiss from the lips of a Dornish princess. He had stolen her jewels too, and a chest of golden dragons, but it was the kiss he liked to boast of in his cups.

By this information, Elia may have been travelling either before her first pregnancy, perhaps on the way to be wed? Of course coming from Dorne she may well have come through the Kingswood. Or perhaps just whilst visiting another castle? She certainly wasn't confined to KL prior to the rebellion. If they were wed in early 280, it could have happened prior to that, or just after,  there doesn't seem to be anything in the text to indicate when she met the Kingswood Brotherhood. Your events can easily be slotted into the timeline I have worked out. at the start of 280 they are married, she is kissed by Ulmer on her way to the wedding, or shortly after whilst out and about, she falls pregnant within the first month of her marriage and she can still be kissed by Ulmer between now and the time of her confinement on Dragonstone, Ser Arthur and Jaime deal with the outlaws, Cersei calls Jaime to KL, shags him, implores him to attend the Tourney, which we know was announced late in 280, this happens whilst Elia is on bed rest, in month 3 of 281 the Tourney takes place and Elia is able to attend. Rhaenys is with some maid or septa and wouldn't be expected to attend the Tourney events. She may even have been left on Dragonstone.  Elia falls pregnant again and Aegon is born at the end of 281, Rhaegar sets out to find Lyanna in the new yr. 

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Elia betrothed in 279 to Rhaegar.

In 280 Princess Elia was under Escort of the KG when she was attacked in the Kingswood, more than likely on the way to her wedding.

Princess Elia was still married in 280. Does not say what time of the year it was.

Rhaenys Targaryen is born in 280.

For 6 Months if Elia was bed ridden after the birth.

If they married early in the year there is no problem with the Timeline.

In late to 280 as the year came to a close the Tourney of HH is announced.

Now Rhaenys is no problem. But the false spring lasted only 2 Turns of the moon. The Tourney only lasted for 7 Days. But it said as the year came to an end winter returned. Which means the Tourney was late in the year because the False Spring only lasted 2 Turns of the moon. After that it said winter returned. Last day of the year it began to snow in KL and it snowed for a Fortnight. For a moons turn Aerys had fires burned but Rhaegar was already gone by then and not with his wife or young son Aegon. It says with the coming of the New Year Rhaegar had taken to the road.

Elia was super pregnant. You are essentially talking about a 3 Month Window. Elia is about 5-6 Months pregnant at HH. It was a false spring and a 7 month gap before winter returned? It says it lasted 2 turns and winter returned and it began to snow on the last day of the year. This points to the end of the year not the beginning. You would think Spring in Spring but it's a false spring. That's the info I am getting from the world book.

I agree Elia was probably on her way to the wedding when she was attacked in the KW. But the time of HH seems to be in the fall. Which gives plenty of time for her to recover from Rhaenys and lines up well with the announcement of the wedding in 279. It gives plenty of time for her to recover and get pregnant again but it does point to her being pregnant. 

She did not have to ride a horse to HH, she could of taken a carriage, like Cersei. It's not that far from KL. Though a bit odd that Rhaegar had her travel. Though if Rhaegar was normal none of this would of happened.

Aegon would die about 14 months later as he was 14 Months old when he died according to Martin and was also born late in 281. Rhaegar left before the turn of the New Year and we know he held Aegon.

But she had to be pregnant, and Aegon was probably conceived in March. Martins timeline in the Worldbook matches his statements from the past and easily fit in the Window. 

 

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33 minutes ago, Ser Creighton said:

Elia betrothed in 279 to Rhaegar.

In 280 Princess Elia was under Escort of the KG when she was attacked in the Kingswood, more than likely on the way to her wedding.

Princess Elia was still married in 280. Does not say what time of the year it was.

Rhaenys Targaryen is born in 280.

For 6 Months if Elia was bed ridden after the birth.

If they married early in the year there is no problem with the Timeline.

In late to 280 as the year came to a close the Tourney of HH is announced.

Now Rhaenys is no problem. But the false spring lasted only 2 Turns of the moon. The Tourney only lasted for 7 Days. But it said as the year came to an end winter returned. Which means the Tourney was late in the year because the False Spring only lasted 2 Turns of the moon. After that it said winter returned. Last day of the year it began to snow in KL and it snowed for a Fortnight. For a moons turn Aerys had fires burned but Rhaegar was already gone by then and not with his wife or young son Aegon. It says with the coming of the New Year Rhaegar had taken to the road.

Elia was super pregnant. You are essentially talking about a 3 Month Window. Elia is about 5-6 Months pregnant at HH. It was a false spring and a 7 month gap before winter returned? It says it lasted 2 turns and winter returned and it began to snow on the last day of the year. This points to the end of the year not the beginning. You would think Spring in Spring but it's a false spring. That's the info I am getting from the world book.

I agree Elia was probably on her way to the wedding when she was attacked in the KW. But the time of HH seems to be in the fall. Which gives plenty of time for her to recover from Rhaenys and lines up well with the announcement of the wedding in 279. It gives plenty of time for her to recover and get pregnant again but it does point to her being pregnant. 

She did not have to ride a horse to HH, she could of taken a carriage, like Cersei. It's not that far from KL. Though a bit odd that Rhaegar had her travel. Though if Rhaegar was normal none of this would of happened.

Aegon would die about 14 months later as he was 14 Months old when he died according to Martin and was also born late in 281. Rhaegar left before the turn of the New Year and we know he held Aegon.

But she had to be pregnant, and Aegon was probably conceived in March. Martins timeline in the Worldbook matches his statements from the past and easily fit in the Window. 

 

Second this. 

Elia is definately heavily pregnant if GRRM followed his own words on timeframe. 

Of course he could just ignore these stuff, for example, that six-month bed rest. He could say, joncon hated Elia so he just exaggerated. 

and why nobody mentioned her pregnancy? 

Either GRRM forgot or felt it is not important enough to mention. 

By the way, Rhaegar and Lyanna need to have a beautiful and pure love story, it would not be good for their public images if readers know that it is a super pregnant wife who was shamed due to their love affair. That made Rhaegar become a giant jerk, no matter it is an arranged marriage or not. 

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28 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

By the way, Rhaegar and Lyanna need to have a beautiful and pure love story, it would not be good for their public images if readers know that it is a super pregnant wife who was shamed due to their love affair. That made Rhaegar become a giant jerk, no matter it is an arranged marriage or not. 

Dany's REAL vision of Rhaegar and Elia in HotU:

 

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38 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Why should they? What would something like that change and who would actually care?

Elia was clearly as upset as the overly emotional fan base..

The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” "Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. 

 

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7 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Elia was clearly as upset as the overly emotional fan base..

The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” "Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. 

 

I failed to see your point. You mean this can prove that Elia is OK with what her husband did at the tourney? 

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3 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

that is true. nobody cares. GRRM does not care either. 

That's hardly the truth since he had decided to include it from the beginning unlike the dragons.

10 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Elia was clearly as upset as the overly emotional fan base..

The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” "Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. 

 

And the woman you are quoting was Elia so?

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I still think the wording is too vague on that quote from the world book to place the Tourney late in 281. Elia travelling to a Tourney after the 3'rd month of  a pregnancy would be extremely hard to believe. Especially towards the end of a pregnancy. With her history. And given the tradition of confinement for medieval noble women, Royalty having usually spent even longer shut away than most.  The idea of her trundling hundreds of miles in a Wheelhouse whilst heavily pregnant to attend a Tourney is ludicrous. 

Quote

The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.

I've underlined the bit about the False spring lasting only two turns, as you can all see it is very clearly a sentence on it's own. there is a full stop before the Maester goes on to say that as the year drew to a close, winter returned with a vengeance. meaning the two things are separate. Spring lasted two turns, this does not mean that they all went to bed one night to green fields and buds on the trees but awoke to a freezing cold frosty morning. We are told it did not snow until the last day of the year. There would be a period between the two turns of the year where it was springlike, and then onset autumnal conditions, and the steady return of Winter.

It says as the year closed winter returned. Which implies that as the latter quarter of the year set in it became steadily more winter like, culminating on the last day when the snow started to fall in KL. This wording does not rule out the Tourney taking place in the more sensible time of say month 3/4/5 of the year at all. In fact I think that still makes most sense. If it happened in month 3 and spring lasted month 3 and 4, then we have months 5/6/7/8 for autumnal conditions and as the year draws to a close the return of winter. With the snows arriving as far south as KL by the close of the year. 

This allows for all known aspects of Elia's timeline to function perfectly fine and it doesn't require the reader to believe that she went to a Tourney whilst heavily pregnant- something which simply would not be the done thing.  For her health as much as for what is usual in these situations. 

 

I really don't give a damn about Rhaegar's reputation or keeping Lyannna and his love affair good and lovely, I also don't give a crap about if Elia was hurt or not by the events. I'm just interested in the timeline, and how events fit into that because I am so sick of people claiming that there was some mass simultaneous pregnancy bug going round and that everyone played pass the parcel with their babies. Because it turns the entire book series into a bloody farce!

 

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yup. Jon is uncertain enough, but we have Ashara Dayne, and Elia, and Lyanna, which is just pure stupidity. The tourney at Harrenhal was designed purely by GRRM for TKoTLT, and Rhaegar crowning Lyanna. I don't really think that a timeline of Elia's pregnancy really has a point, and I don't think it will pop up again in ASolaF, so it's time to move on.

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The point was that Ashara fell pregnant at the Tourney, and ascertaining the month the Tourney took place tells us when her child was born. The best way to ascertain the month of the Tourney is to map Elia's pregnancies. Because there is no mention of or hint that she was expecting Aegon at the Tourney, nor would it be at all in line with normal historical practice during a pregnancy, let alone a royal one. Nor does it align with the way Elia has been depicted in world, the notion she would be travelling in such condition, given her history of ill health, and difficulty in birthing is absurd. So if Ashara fell pregnant at the tourney and it took place in month 3/4 or 5 of 281, Ashara's child was also born at the end of 281 or start of 282. Meaning s/he is too old to be passed off as Jon or Danaerys.  And that fAegon is too young to be that child, given he is likely younger than Tyrion is told he is, as he observes, and as his behaviour demonstrates. (The boy is a petulant brat and not as mature as his given age would suggest he ought to be.) 

All of that aside. Even without placing Elia's conception of Aegon and the approximate date of the Tourney. We know the Tourney took place too early for Ashara to be Jon's mother. As Jon was not conceived until several months into 282, as in order to be so close in age to Robb as to be questioned by Cat, he has to have been conceived at the time of her and Eddards marriage. Which can not occur until well after the Tourney, as we know.

So even if her child was born in 282 and the Tourney took place in say month 10 of 281 with Elia fit to burst with child. (LMAO) Ashara would have given birth in month 7 or there about's of 282.

And Jon was not born until later in that year. Because we know roughly when he was conceived (same time as Robb.) Danaerys can not be her child either because we know she was born 8/9 months after Jon, and in order to be believed to be Rhaella's daughter conceived just prior to the sack on KL. Meaning Ashara must have been pregnant for a lot longer than 40 weeks. and not have given birth at all before her "death" because otherwise whoever supposedly sneaked her baby onto Dragonstone and passed her off as Rhaella's was trying to pass a toddler off as a new born. I think even an 8 yr old boy could tell the difference.  

Now that leaves fAegon as Ashara's child, but as we know he is probably younger than Tyrion has been told, and even if he were 18 That again puts us as needing Ashara & Elia to be pregnant simultaneously and thus shifts the Tourney date back to my suggested date of month 3/4 of 281. in order for her child to be born around the same time as Aegon, whom we now know was born towards the end of 281. It also requires Ashara to be willing to put her son at risk by passing him off as Aegon Targaryen. And begs the question, where was this boy in the interim period between his birth and Ashara's supposed suicide? Was he kept hidden in Starfall? word was put out she had a daughter who was born sleeping. Where & why did they hide this boy?

And I think the final option is that Ashara's son was the supposed "Pisswater" Prince and that she agreed to swap kids with Elia for security reasons, and that it is his death that caused her suicide. Again it means the two women's pregnancies were simultaneous, fair enough.I think they were very close indeed. BUT It means that she lied about her child's sex, and the still birth in order to enact a baby swap under circumstances which were at the time of the two children's births completely unforeseeable. And it still doesn't account for Tyrion thinking the boy is younger than he has been told, or the readers ability to perceive this is true because he behaves in a way more befitting a 15 yr old than a 18 yr old. 

Basically all this pass the baby party game nonsense is farcical and serves no purpose.  Elia had Aegon late in 281, Ashara gave birth at either the same time or early in 282, Lyanna had Jon at the ToJ roughly 9 months after Eddard & Catelyn's wedding, so that places his birth in 283 and Dany was born about 8/9 months after that.   non of these kids can be passed of as each others respective mothers babies as apart from possibly Ashara & Elia's but that suggestion runs into problems of it's own and doesn't account for the fact the boy we meet is likely too young to be either woman's son. 

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19 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

What do you mean, something about them might bring some truth about so many mysteries? 

What has the size of the North got to do with fAegon and if he is real or not?  

What text do you have to support the theory that Aerys was hell bent on irradiating house Stark? - Prior to Brandon's arrival in KL.                 

 

Sorry, I mixed the theories.

First, I think yes, I think Lannisters know more than they think in their POV. This is a feeling I have.

The size of North being the same as almost all the other six kingdoms together is mentioned in the first chapters of the first book.

This combined with the tourney of Harrenhal, the "southrun ambitions" of Rickard Stark are enough for me to believe in the theory, more appropriate to this thread, that indeed Aerys was very much paranoid about the Starks. Even when Brandon and Rickard are dead he demands the heads of Rob Baratheon and Eddard Stark. Remember it is in this moment that the Rebellion starts. With Jon Arryn, and not followed by all the other Houses...

Let's say that Aerys just needed a small excuse to smash his "enemies". All the Starks are in Harrenhal (the place the King thinks that Rhaegar chose to make a pact with all Lords to depose him). The fact that he was mad with TKoTLT, seems totally strange, but he might have his suspicions that one of the Stark boys was the mysterious knight.

If I follow your logic of offering Elia breastfeeding her babies as offering horror, and all mothers hold their babies in a situation like that, breastfeeding or not, I can offer my trail of thoughts thinking that yes, Lyanna being TKoTLT offers the great opportunity to catch her as bait to eliminate the Starks. We know what mad Aerys* did to Brandon and Rickard. If only Brandon was not so impulsive, things might have been different. Remember Ned tells Arya that her temper is what he calls "wolf blood" and that it was this kind of temper that lead to Brandon and Lyanna early deaths.

We know Brandon impusive action took him to early death, so what about Lyanna?

So, on topic, since I don't have enough thoughts on Aegon being fake or not, as I wrote, I think it's quite possible but I just don't buy it. On topic: Starks have half the Kingdom under their power. The Lord of Winterfell decided to marry his son to a Tully and his daugther to a Baratheon. Aerys is mad - not just mad but very very cruel, just think about what he did to Serala. He went to Harrenhal to find out what conspiracy they were planning about him. It might have been there that he knew about Lord Rickard "ambitions".

So, before Brandon's marriage, he discovers Lyanna was the mysterious knight. Under this pretext he orders some of his men to catch Lyanna, being cautious he does not involve any KG as he knows some of them are his, now hated son, Rhaegar, pals. After that Rhaegar finds out what was happening and rescues Lyanna. This would explain why he exposed himself, why Lyanna was taken at swordpoint, why the two KG followed him. And this makes perfect sense to what Ned told Arya, that the "wolf blood" in Lyanna - defending Howland Reed, wanting to be strong and know how to fight, etc, put her in a dangerous position.

Among all theories in GoT there are some that I just can't believe can be true without turning GRRM into a bad writer. I just can't believe a man like Rhaegar would be stupid enought to kidnap a 15 year old to have a third child. To believe in a prophecy, even being "obsessed" with it, and we know he has other things in mind not only "prophecies", is something. To kidnap and rape a girl, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, is another thing totally different. I know many people thought the same thing, so then another theory submerged: that Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love. What? How? So Rhaegar fell in love immediately after seeing her? Because she was brave and beautiful? And one year later, three months after his son is born, they suddenly decide on running away together... So he takes her at swordpoint for "all Westeros to see"? Lol. No, sorry, I just can't believe in this. First I can't think of any scenario where Lyanna and Rhaegar might fall in love and plan to run away. Second, when you run away you normally do this in secret, right? So when someone discovers, it is too late.

Sorry to write so much. So, can someone explain to me Rhaegar's action towards Lyanna? Even if he was getting mad like his father, and wanted Ice to light his Fire, how he could be certain Lyanna would give him children? Why take her at swordpoint and not later, secretly? His father was mad and cruel, but only once he was stupid, when he let the Lannisters enter King's Landing. I know a lot of people hate Rhaegar, and maybe this is the reason they don't think it thoroughly. If it has to make sense, Rhaegar taking Lyanna at swordpoint, risking his life and reputation, could only mean he was rescuing her from his father.

 

*please, anyone knows of a theory that claims that Aerys' madness was increased greatly by Lady Serala of Myr, maybe with help, after her cruel murder, from Varys? I would love to read something about that...

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7 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

I failed to see your point. You mean this can prove that Elia is OK with what her husband did at the tourney? 

Ok with it? Who knows, but it's yet another example of characters in the story not reflection your extremely poor view of him. The only one is Robert, and I find him to be unreliable as he was the spurned one.. 

I think we've agreed to disagree on this several times, one more time I guess..

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