The Tower of Joy Discussion

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

35 minutes ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Sorry, I mixed the theories.

First, I think yes, I think Lannisters know more than they think in their POV. This is a feeling I have.

The size of North being the same as almost all the other six kingdoms together is mentioned in the first chapters of the first book.

This combined with the tourney of Harrenhal, the "southrun ambitions" of Rickard Stark are enough for me to believe in the theory, more appropriate to this thread, that indeed Aerys was very much paranoid about the Starks. Even when Brandon and Rickard are dead he demands the heads of Rob Baratheon and Eddard Stark. Remember it is in this moment that the Rebellion starts. With Jon Arryn, and not followed by all the other Houses...

So let me get this straight, you think the North being vast is cause for Aerys to want to erradicate House Stark, after he hears that Rickard has ambitious plans to integrate the historically insular North with the rest of the Kingdom by marrying his Heir to a Tully.  And his daughter to the lord of the Stormlands. That simply having a lot of land and wanting to foster better relationships with the South is enough to decide to kill them all. Starting with Lyanna because he found out she played the mystery Knight at a Tourney. What in text evidence is there to support this? any quotes to support that he even discovered Lyanna was TKOLT? What evidence that he was paranoid about the Starks prior to Brandon arriving in KL?  What text supports this idea . What quotes tell us he was suspicious of Rickards wedding plans? 

Let's say that Aerys just needed a small excuse to smash his "enemies". All the Starks are in Harrenhal (the place the King thinks that Rhaegar chose to make a pact with all Lords to depose him). The fact that he was mad with TKoTLT, seems totally strange, but he might have his suspicions that one of the Stark boys was the mysterious knight.

Lets not just suppose anything, Lets look to see if anything in the text suggests something before we assume anything.

If I follow your logic of offering Elia breastfeeding her babies as offering horror, and all mothers hold their babies in a situation like that, breastfeeding or not, I can offer my trail of thoughts thinking that yes, Lyanna being TKoTLT offers the great opportunity to catch her as bait to eliminate the Starks. We know what mad Aerys* did to Brandon and Rickard. If only Brandon was not so impulsive, things might have been different. Remember Ned tells Arya that her temper is what he calls "wolf blood" and that it was this kind of temper that lead to Brandon and Lyanna early deaths.

Yes he is offering horror, he writes a lot of horror, and he is good at it. He is also as I previously pointed out offering symbolism, and conjuring a contrast in the readers mind between innocence and the sanctity of motherhood and the barbarism of the killings. Which is why she is specifically suckling the babe and not just holding it.

But what in the text suggests that was the plan?  We also know what Aerys did to others who he took against. His actions towards Brandon & Rickard do not indicate that prior to this he had anything specific against the Starks. 

He tells Arya Brandon had the Wolf Blood. and he thinks Lyanna had a touch too, that she was beautiful, and wilful and dead before her time. This is a hint towards Lyanna having a hand in her own fate, which goes against the story we've been told, that she was kidnapped. The Wolfs Blood isn't just in his (Brandon's) temper, it is in his passions, his mirth, his risk taking. These things as well as his hot headed temper are what Eddard refers to as the Wolf Blood. Lyanna's wolf Blood is her wilfulness, and he is directly implying Arya is similar in her desire to learn to sword fight. And in her unwillingness to conform to courtly behaviour. This hints at Lyanna also having been unwilling to conform and inclined to defy her father inorder to follow her passions. IE: She went willingly. And indeed that she was capable of performing in the Tourney.  

We know Brandon impusive action took him to early death, so what about Lyanna?

Yes her action in going with Rhaegar led to her early death. 

So, on topic, since I don't have enough thoughts on Aegon being fake or not, as I wrote, I think it's quite possible but I just don't buy it. On topic: Starks have half the Kingdom under their power. The Lord of Winterfell decided to marry his son to a Tully and his daugther to a Baratheon. Aerys is mad - not just mad but very very cruel, just think about what he did to Serala. He went to Harrenhal to find out what conspiracy they were planning about him. It might have been there that he knew about Lord Rickard "ambitions".

Again, what evidence is there in text that Aerys heard of Rickards ambitions, felt they were anything beyond fostering good marriage pacts and that he took against teh North because of this? Because without any text to back up this theory it's nothing more than a suggestion based on your own idea. And nothing to do with the story.

So, before Brandon's marriage, he discovers Lyanna was the mysterious knight. Under this pretext he orders some of his men to catch Lyanna, being cautious he does not involve any KG as he knows some of them are his, now hated son, Rhaegar, pals. After that Rhaegar finds out what was happening and rescues Lyanna. This would explain why he exposed himself, why Lyanna was taken at swordpoint, why the two KG followed him. And this makes perfect sense to what Ned told Arya, that the "wolf blood" in Lyanna - defending Howland Reed, wanting to be strong and know how to fight, etc, put her in a dangerous position.

What evidence?  Read again the story Daenerys tells  us of her brother and his Northern girl, on her route to marry Hizdhar. She looks into the crowd for Daario, wishing he was there. Thinking If he truly loves me he would come and carry me off at sword point as Rhaegar did his Northern girl.  This implies that he loved her already and that was the reason he took her as she travelled to attend a wedding. Also look at how similar Dany's situation is to Lyanna, she is having to marry a man she has no passion for, simply to satisfy politics. This is like an echo within the story. Lyanna was due to wed a man whom she had no love of, for politics (Rickards ambitions) And another who loved her carried her off at sword point before the wedding could take place, and Dany references this on route to her own wedding.   This story is relaying information about the "kidnap" Dany wants Daario to appear and take her away. Suggesting Lyanna too wanted Rhaegar to appear and take her away. At sword point doesn't have to mean that Lyanna was the one at the pointy end. She would not have been travelling alone. The swords may have been pointed at her guard.  The two KG followed because they were loyal to Rhaegar. Ned told Arya that the wolf blood got Lyanna killed, which is because she (Lyanna) defied her father to be with the man she loved, and followed her own will rather than his instruction. 

Among all theories in GoT there are some that I just can't believe can be true without turning GRRM into a bad writer. I just can't believe a man like Rhaegar would be stupid enought to kidnap a 15 year old to have a third child. To believe in a prophecy, even being "obsessed" with it, and we know he has other things in mind not only "prophecies", is something. To kidnap and rape a girl, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, is another thing totally different. I know many people thought the same thing, so then another theory submerged: that Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love. What? How? So Rhaegar fell in love immediately after seeing her? Because she was brave and beautiful? And one year later, three months after his son is born, they suddenly decide on running away together... So he takes her at swordpoint for "all Westeros to see"? Lol. No, sorry, I just can't believe in this. First I can't think of any scenario where Lyanna and Rhaegar might fall in love and plan to run away. Second, when you run away you normally do this in secret, right? So when someone discovers, it is too late.

Sorry to write so much. So, can someone explain to me Rhaegar's action towards Lyanna? Even if he was getting mad like his father, and wanted Ice to light his Fire, how he could be certain Lyanna would give him children? Why take her at swordpoint and not later, secretly? His father was mad and cruel, but only once he was stupid, when he let the Lannisters enter King's Landing. I know a lot of people hate Rhaegar, and maybe this is the reason they don't think it thoroughly. If it has to make sense, Rhaegar taking Lyanna at swordpoint, risking his life and reputation,

On the contrary, what would make GRRM a bad writer would be to pull events out of his arse having set up no in book hints or suggestions to that effect. Lyanna is a young woman in the world this series inhabits, and her age is not to be viewed as it would be in modern day western culture. But this is a world in which prophesy is taken very seriously. Where magic is real and where the fate of the world may well be believed to fall on the shoulders of one man and one woman producing a certain child.   Elopement happened in real life too, and running away together was not something that unusual. The author is a self confessed romantic, he loves romance stories, he has in this scenario borrowed from some pretty famous ones. 

When you live at opposite ends of the country and travelling alone is dangerous, how do you arrange to run away together? Well one way would be to arrange to meet half way, and choose a time when the more vulnerable party (the woman) can be guarded and accompanied. IE: going to her brothers wedding. This way she completes the journey in safety. And her lover can alleviate her of her guard and provide security on route to the planned destination. The usual me this for eloping lovers defying social convention to be together was to run away, get married and then stay hidden until a pregnancy was visible. Thus making it impossible to deny consummation and annul the marriage. GRRM even includes four other secret marriages in book. Ramsey & Donella, which is an abduction and rape just as the official line on Lyanna is. But we find out that  if you want to make a marriage water tight you do it both old gods and new and have folk witness the consummation, Tyrion & Tysha who marry in secret, this time for love, and hide away for a period of time before revealing the marriage. Next we learnt of Rhaenyra & Daemon, who married in secret against her father the kings direct wishes, but he was left feeling unable to absolve the wedding. and lastly Jaehaerys & Shaera, who eloped and wed and when they returned they were vocal about the consummation, leaving Aegon V with little choice but to bless the union.  Basically there is a how to guide in the books themselves as well as hints that they were in love, all written by an author who likes love stories, and romance. The structure of the tale, ie: love at first sight, disguises, heroic acts, defiance, and secrecy are all classic motifs.

could only mean he was rescuing her from his father.

Err no. This is a huge leap.

*please, anyone knows of a theory that claims that Aerys' madness was increased greatly by Lady Serala of Myr, maybe with help, after her cruel murder, from Varys? I would love to read something about that...

 

[RedPriest]

As far as this goes, i don't really believe the love story, but otherwise i agree with the weirwood eyes

[Jon Snow Nothing]

On 10/08/2016 at 10:03 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

On the contrary, what would make GRRM a bad writer would be to pull events out of his arse having set up no in book hints or suggestions to that effect. Lyanna is a young woman in the world this series inhabits, and her age is not to be viewed as it would be in modern day western culture. But this is a world in which prophesy is taken very seriously. Where magic is real and where the fate of the world may well be believed to fall on the shoulders of one man and one woman producing a certain child.   Elopement happened in real life too, and running away together was not something that unusual. The author is a self confessed romantic, he loves romance stories, he has in this scenario borrowed from some pretty famous ones. 

When you live at opposite ends of the country and travelling alone is dangerous, how do you arrange to run away together? Well one way would be to arrange to meet half way, and choose a time when the more vulnerable party (the woman) can be guarded and accompanied. IE: going to her brothers wedding. This way she completes the journey in safety. And her lover can alleviate her of her guard and provide security on route to the planned destination. The usual me this for eloping lovers defying social convention to be together was to run away, get married and then stay hidden until a pregnancy was visible. Thus making it impossible to deny consummation and annul the marriage. GRRM even includes four other secret marriages in book. Ramsey & Donella, which is an abduction and rape just as the official line on Lyanna is. But we find out that  if you want to make a marriage water tight you do it both old gods and new and have folk witness the consummation, Tyrion & Tysha who marry in secret, this time for love, and hide away for a period of time before revealing the marriage. Next we learnt of Rhaenyra & Daemon, who married in secret against her father the kings direct wishes, but he was left feeling unable to absolve the wedding. and lastly Jaehaerys & Shaera, who eloped and wed and when they returned they were vocal about the consummation, leaving Aegon V with little choice but to bless the union.  Basically there is a how to guide in the books themselves as well as hints that they were in love, all written by an author who likes love stories, and romance. The structure of the tale, ie: love at first sight, disguises, heroic acts, defiance, and secrecy are all classic motifs.

Lyanna is the girl who didn't want to marry a man who already has a bastard, and already had the sense to know that he would never be faithful to any wife. Do you really think it's possible that she ran away with a married Prince with two children?

Lyanna lives in the North and the Prince lives in Dragonstone. Please tell me how they could have fell in love and planned to elope? Is Riverrun so very far away from Dragonstone? Why was she taken in the middle of journey? Why at swordpoint making it very likely that Rhaegar could get hurt in the process and maybe even Lyanna?

If they want to run away and stay hidden they should have taken the safe route: elope secretly, so this would give them time to stay away from their persecutors a longer time. Uh, where is Lyanna? Where in seven hells is Prince Rhaegar? But making it look like it was an abduction for "all Westeros to see", lol, I love this kind of expression, sorry, would only give them little time to hide. Rhaegar and Lyanna could have ran away disguised, in the middle of the night, please there are so many other better plans to choose...

GRRM being a romantic doesn't make this theory any more plausible. And yes, there WAS romance. Otherwise Jon would not have been conceived.

But when did they fall in love?

If Lyanna had not been crowned QoLaB I would even accept a theory, not based on books, that she might have stayed in the South and thus kissed Rhaegar once or twice.  I am sure, though, her brothers took her home after "all the smiles died"; away from the Prince as much as they could, and this also made it plausible why Brandon thinks she was kidnapped.

How could they have been suddenly so much in love with each other to run away in this scenario, and so stupid not to run away after she arrived safely at Riverrun? I am sure Lyanna was an intelligent girl. So being The Knight of the Laughing Tree was her doom because after that pantomime Rhaegar discovered the truth and they fell deeply in love? This is why you think her "wolf blood" brought her an early death? Compared to her brother Brandon she might have had only a drop of wolf blood, if that is the case. Oh, Lyanna! So stubborn, wanted to pretend to be a knight and, oh, the horror, because of that temper she had, the Prince fell in love with her and they ran away to have a baby they could not be sure would be really conceived and would really survive.

They fell in love after the fake abduction/elopement, after the rescuing.

Oh, wait! You were not talking about love, but about fulfilling prophecies. So in your theory not only Lyanna fell for Rhaegar as only Sansa would have but she also believed that, even before Elia's child was born, she was "his Ice and he was her Fire"? So before Rhaegar found out that Elia could not have more children, they already have fallen in love with each other and planned the stupid elopement because of a prophecy? A girl from the North? A Prince who had already a wife and had to deal with the increasing madness of his father, the mad King? Oh, no,  they planned all this in three months, after Aegon was born. Yeah...

They say Rhaegar was obsessed with the prophecy, but he was obsessed to find out the truth, not to act on impulse and without a good plan.

So unless you think Lyanna was as naive as Sansa, and a bit dumb too, and Rhaegar was as crazy as his father was, this theory makes no sense.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

But why would Rhaegar personally go, with the three best KG, to rescue Lyanna from his father? He could have sent guards to protect her or alert her to the danger.

[Jon Snow Nothing]

1 minute ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

But why would Rhaegar personally go, with the three best KG, to rescue Lyanna from his father? He could have sent guards to protect her or alert her to the danger.

Two KG, not three. Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent.

The guards were his father's, not his. He found out only too late, and didn't have a plan, only two good friends who were ready to help him. His friends.

And exactly. Would they have planned to run away together with two other men? Is that how elopements happen in romances, really?

Tell me, would you send "some guards" to alert a girl from danger and stay playing your harp knowing exactly what your father was capable to do if they got her, or would you go try to rescue her?

[Little Scribe of Naath]

1 minute ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Two KG, not three. Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent.

The guards were his father's, not his. He found out only too late, and didn't have a plan, only two good friends who were ready to help him. His friends.

And exactly. Would they have planned to run away together with two other men? Is that how elopements happen in romances, really?

Tell me, would you send "some guards" to alert a girl from danger and stay playing your harp knowing exactly what your father was capable to do if they got her, or would you go try to rescue her?

I still don't see why the Prince of Westeros should personally go to rescue Lyanna. Especially when she was a daughter of a Great House herself. She would have had her own men to guard her well enough. A tip - off or a few trusted knights to help her would have been enough.

In fact, if Aerys truly had a plan against the Starks, Rhaegar secretly sending guards to save her makes more sense than personally going himself. That's like flashing a neon sign saying "Dad, I'm on the Starks' side and not yours!"

And the KG of Westeros have a duty to guard the king at his side, first and foremost. There's no reason why they should be sent to guard Lyanna.

[Jon Snow Nothing]

44 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

I still don't see why the Prince of Westeros should personally go to rescue Lyanna. Especially when she was a daughter of a Great House herself. She would have had her own men to guard her well enough. A tip - off or a few trusted knights to help her would have been enough.

In fact, if Aerys truly had a plan against the Starks, Rhaegar secretly sending guards to save her makes more sense than personally going himself. That's like flashing a neon sign saying "Dad, I'm on the Starks' side and not yours!"

And the KG of Westeros have a duty to guard the king at his side, first and foremost. There's no reason why they should be sent to guard Lyanna.

She had her own men, but no one was expecting royal guards to take her away. That's the reason, when Rhaegar disappears with her, that the Stark guard thinks he ran to KL, and told Brandon so. There was maybe no time to explain during the fight. The most important thing was to take away Lyanna to a safe place.

Rhaegar can't secretly send guards if he finds out after those said guards were already going after her.

He was already against his father and his father knew it. There was no other way to rescue her. This is a theory that makes sense but of course we do not have all the facts, I base my belief excluding the other theories.

And yes, after rescuing Lyanna - who the King might have proclaimed a traitor, he himself became a traitor.

The last sentence, I am sorry, I don't understand what you mean? KG were guarding the prince. They were with Rhaegar to help him rescue her. I even think the one who truly rescued her and was the main reason they could escape was Arthur Dayne, hence Ned's admiration for the man.

 

[Dorian Martell]

1 hour ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Lyanna is the girl who didn't want to marry a man who already has a bastard, and already had the sense to know that he would never be faithful to any wife. Do you really think it's possible that she ran away with a married Prince with two children?

So unless you think Lyanna was as naive as Sansa, and a bit dumb too, and Rhaegar was as crazy as his father was, this theory makes no sense.

Yes, she was as naive as Sansa. she never met bob before being bethrothed. when she found out he had a bastard she was weary, especially knowing that she would have to deal with Bastards that could mess with her children's claim to storm's end. Now the prince was a good looking guy, played music really well to the point of giving Lyanna an emotional reaction ( if I need to explain why this is a big deal the discussion is pointless)  and if she was the knight or connected to the knight of the laughing tree, When the King sent Rhaegar to find "him" he very well could have found Lyanna. That is where the love began and making her the QoLaB  was a nod top their meeting. They could have been married. that would explain hte KG at the TOJ.  

Rhaegar was not crazy like his father, but he was far from brutally practical as someone like Tywin. He was never interested in being a warrior until he read it in a book. His whole life was viewed through a prophecy. That is a little off at best.  

[Jon Snow Nothing]

26 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

Yes, she was as naive as Sansa. she never met bob before being bethrothed. when she found out he had a bastard she was weary, especially knowing that she would have to deal with Bastards that could mess with her children's claim to storm's end. Now the prince was a good looking guy, played music really well to the point of giving Lyanna an emotional reaction ( if I need to explain why this is a big deal the discussion is pointless)  and if she was the knight or connected to the knight of the laughing tree, When the King sent Rhaegar to find "him" he very well could have found Lyanna. That is where the love began and making her the QoLaB  was a nod top their meeting. They could have been married. that would explain hte KG at the TOJ.  

Rhaegar was not crazy like his father, but he was far from brutally practical as someone like Tywin. He was never interested in being a warrior until he read it in a book. His whole life was viewed through a prophecy. That is a little off at best.  

I agree that he was very interested in her after finding her to be the mysterious knight. No doubt about that, he even gave her the crown, but I believe it was more to give her the merit of being the real champion of the tourney. Lyanna was already very charmed by him, but remember her reaction after Benjen laughed at her. It was said all women weeped when they heard him sing and play. She was no Sansa, I have to disagree. Being sad because the man she was betrothed to was already fathering bastards is something, telling her older brother that a man like this would never be faithful is another. Something Sansa would never say. Sansa would say that love would change him, like they heard in songs.

Sorry, but comparing Rhaegar with Tywin Lannister is a bit strange. I don't get it. Who said Rhaegar was not practical?

Rhaegar was trying to depose his father who was murdering and torturing people, it was believed the tourney of Harrenhal was indeed a reunion of Lords to try to find a way to get rid of Aerys. So Rhaegar's life was not "viewed through a prophecy", he was very interested in that, as Maester Aemon was too. Was Maester Aemon "a little off"? Was Maester Aemon's life viewed only through a prophecy?

Where in the book it is mentioned that the prophecy needed three siblings? Where in the book is it mentioned that the third head should be made of Ice and Fire? Why Lyanna? And how could he be certain Lyanna would give him children? Did he meet a witch that told him all this? Is that mentioned in the text?

We don't have all the facts. So we have to use common sense to fill the gaps. That's what I am using when I say I believe in the theory that Rhaegar was rescuing Lyanna from Aerys, and that Jon was not planned at all.

Please tell me what do think happened? Do you think Lyanna was blind by love and Rhaegar forgot all about his father torturing and killing people to elope with a girl to have a "third head" that we now know that didn't need to be a sibling to his PTWP?

[Little Scribe of Naath]

1 hour ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

She had her own men, but no one was expecting royal guards to take her away. That's the reason, when Rhaegar disappears with her, that the Stark guard thinks he ran to KL, and told Brandon so. There was maybe no time to explain during the fight. The most important thing was to take away Lyanna to a safe place.

Rhaegar can't secretly send guards if he finds out after those said guards were already going after her.

He was already against his father and his father knew it. There was no other way to rescue her. This is a theory that makes sense but of course we do not have all the facts, I base my belief excluding the other theories.

And yes, after rescuing Lyanna - who the King might have proclaimed a traitor, he himself became a traitor.

The last sentence, I am sorry, I don't understand what you mean? KG were guarding the prince. They were with Rhaegar to help him rescue her. I even think the one who truly rescued her and was the main reason they could escape was Arthur Dayne, hence Ned's admiration for the man.

 

I'm not sure why this is the only theory which makes sense. Specially when there are facts backing up other theories: Rhaegar's interest in Lyanna, Lyanna's potential interest in him, the whole Queen of Love and Beauty incident, Rhaegar's interest in the prophecy throughout his whole life, etc. 

Rhaegar could have easily sent some trusted knights in his employ to protect/alert Lyanna if his only intention was to save her from Aerys. 

And also, why would Aerys be specifically interested only in harming Lyanna? Wouldn't he have a grudge against the Starks as a whole and send an envoy to kill all of them?

You're contradicting yourself a bit here. You say Rhaegar could not have been as irresponsible as to elope with a girl out of love or prophecy in the first place, then you go on to say he suddenly fell in love with her and went off with her during the "rescue"? How does that work?

[OuttaOldtown]

1 minute ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

I'm not sure why this is the only theory which makes sense. Specially when there are facts backing up other theories: Rhaegar's interest in Lyanna, Lyanna's potential interest in him, the whole Queen of Love and Beauty incident, Rhaegar's interest in the prophecy throughout his whole life, etc. 

 

Agree. I think there are theories that don't involve dissecting things which took place before the start of the series but rather clues provided in the text which are less direct, namely from Bran's, Jon's and Ned's POV's. I wouldn't be shocked if the answers lie with whatever Howland learned at the Isle of the Faces, which means Bran could provide us with many of the answers, Meera as well and obviously the hope is Howland himself. For me love was something which seems to have developed, but I highly doubt it was the root cause of them disappearing together with no explanation..

[Little Scribe of Naath]

1 minute ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Agree. I think there are theories that don't involve dissecting things which took place before the start of the series but rather clues provided in the text which are less direct, namely from Bran's, Jon's and Ned's POV's. I wouldn't be shocked if the answers lie with whatever Howland learned at the Isle of the Faces, which means Bran could provide us with many of the answers, Meera as well and obviously the hope is Howland himself. For me love was something which seems to have developed, but I highly doubt it was the root cause of them disappearing together with no explanation..

GRRM's characters are usually multifaceted and complex. We do not have all the facts as to why Rhaegar and Lyanna did what they did, but most clues point us towards both prophecy as well as their mutual attraction playing a role. There can be many factors involved in the whole issue.

As you say, Howland may have played a major role as well. Possibly he learnt something at the Isle of Faces about the coming apocalypse, seeing as how he has sent his kids to take Bran to the three eyed crow. There's just way too many balls in the air to fixate upon only one theory.

[Dorian Martell]

4 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

I agree that he was very interested in her after finding her to be the mysterious knight. No doubt about that, he even gave her the crown, but I believe it was more to give her the merit of being the real champion of the tourney. Lyanna was already very charmed by him, but remember her reaction after Benjen laughed at her. It was said all women weeped when they heard him sing and play. She was no Sansa, I have to disagree. Being sad because the man she was betrothed to was already fathering bastards is something, telling her older brother that a man like this would never be faithful is another. Something Sansa would never say. Sansa would say that love would change him, like they heard in songs.

I never said she was anything like Sansa other than being naive.  I have to disagree about he crown. If he just wanted to give a not to her marital skill, he could have given her a horse, ir a weapon, but he specifically gave her the crown of winter roses and named her the queen of love and beauty.. That is something more that merrit. That is attraction, romance, infatuation or whatever you want to call it. That is why he fathered a child with her.

4 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Sorry, but comparing Rhaegar with Tywin Lannister is a bit strange. I don't get it. Who said Rhaegar was not practical?

 Rhaegar was bookish and impractical ans a person who ordered his life around prophecy. Tywin was ruthless and practical. Rhaegar was impractical to the point of bankrolling hte biggest tourney in history so he could meet with all the major lords and gauge the support he would have for sidelining his dad. Rhaegar thought running off with the daughter of the warden and lord paramount of the north would be easy. He was not practical. Tywin would extenguish a house rather than give it the chance of rebelling again. Practical. 

4 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Rhaegar was trying to depose his father who was murdering and torturing people, it was believed the tourney of Harrenhal was indeed a reunion of Lords to try to find a way to get rid of Aerys. So Rhaegar's life was not "viewed through a prophecy", he was very interested in that, as Maester Aemon was too. Was Maester Aemon "a little off"? Was Maester Aemon's life viewed only through a prophecy?

Rhaegar may have been trying to depose his dad, but judging by his commanding the royal army, he didn't want to depose him, but sideline him and let him remain a figurehead (the changes he spoke to Jamie about) and rather than do it all subtle like, he bankrolled the biggest tourney in history.  Rhaegar's life was only viewed through prophecy. Rhaegar only took up arms after reading a prophhecy.  It was also  the reason for him having children as per Dany's vision. 
Now, you know your example of Aemon is spurious so we don't even need to entertain it.
 

4 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Where in the book it is mentioned that the prophecy needed three siblings? Where in the book is it mentioned that the third head should be made of Ice and Fire? Why Lyanna? And how could he be certain Lyanna would give him children? Did he meet a witch that told him all this? Is that mentioned in the text?

The three siblings was in Dany's vision.  There is nothing in the book that specifically said ice and fire, nor did say there was. I am not sure where you got that. Why Lyanna? We don't know, because he is dead. But It might have something to do with her toughness. She wasn't delicate like Elia, who was told she would probably die if she had another kid. 

4 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

We don't have all the facts. So we have to use common sense to fill the gaps. That's what I am using when I say I believe in the theory that Rhaegar was rescuing Lyanna from Aerys, and that Jon was not planned at all.

The p[roblem with that is that there is no indication that Aerys and Lyanna ever interacted. Ever. comon sense would say she was Kidnapped. A reading of Ned's thoughts contradicts the idea that Rhaegar did harm to his sister. It takes a very large leap to put Aerys in the mix, being that there was no mention of him and Lyanna ever in any book. Please prove me wrong if I am mistaken. 

4 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Please tell me what do think happened? Do you think Lyanna was blind by love and Rhaegar forgot all about his father torturing and killing people to elope with a girl to have a "third head" that we now know that didn't need to be a sibling to his PTWP?

Rhaegar was taken by the kindness Lyanna showed to Howland Reed and her skill in defeating the squires that abused him. I am sure that Rhaegar was looking for a man, but when he found a woman, who was by all accounts the polar opposite of his wife, he became infatuated with her. She was wild and headstrong (wolf's blood) and she was pretty in a strong northern way.  They made plans to meet, and did.  Now, assuming he married her in the northern tradition (and that is a big assumption,)  the worst that he thought would have happened is he would have had to find a suitable betrothal for Bob, but Rickard would be a member of the royal family, elevating the starks. He did not account for Brandon's impulsive streak, and his father's insanity. So when Brandon challenged him to a duel to the death, and then Aerys took him, killed Rickard and then demanded the heads of Ned and Bob, everything went south in a way that couldn't be rectified. Aerys pushes for war, and Rhaegar, being hos father's son, went to war to defend his family and throne. 
Lyanna was quite impulsive, often disobeying her parents by playing with swords.  She was less than excited about marrying a man she had never met, and even after she did, her desire for him did not grow. Bob was fierce and strong, but Rhaegar was sensitive.  
Rhaegar did not forget about his father, but westeros isn't an egalatarian society with laws that are applied to everyone. Rhaegar was prince because his father was king. His wealth, this status, even being part of a prophecy was because of his family.  It is also what makes Aerys' actions so eggregious. Nuking the Hollards and the Darklyns was brutal, but they did a horrible thing. Imprisoning Brandon was just, but killing him and his father was not, and the dishonorable way it was done made it worse, especially to the Lord paramount and his heir. Calling for the death of the next heir was the dealbreaker. 
So it was attraction, prophecy and love, and it went horribly sideways.   

[Allelea]

On 8/10/2016 at 6:08 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

And I think the final option is that Ashara's son was the supposed "Pisswater" Prince and that she agreed to swap kids with Elia for security reasons, and that it is his death that caused her suicide. Again it means the two women's pregnancies were simultaneous, fair enough.I think they were very close indeed. BUT It means that she lied about her child's sex, and the still birth in order to enact a baby swap under circumstances which were at the time of the two children's births completely unforeseeable. And it still doesn't account for Tyrion thinking the boy is younger than he has been told, or the readers ability to perceive this is true because he behaves in a way more befitting a 15 yr old than a 18 yr old. 

Nice laying out different options with some evidence for or against. I want to mention, though, that for Ashara's son to have been passed off as Elia's baby and have his head smashed against the wall, it doesn't require the swapping out of Elia's real baby as fAegon. Elia was very sickly and it was clear she would probably never be able to have another baby after that. If Elia's real baby was stillborn (maybe a stillborn girl), they could have provided Ashara's son, born very near the same time, to become Rheagar's heir since Elia was unlikely to give him one. Then you still have the reason for her suicide but it avoids the problems of fAegon's age or other questions of why they would swap them. 
I haven't 100% eliminated this as a possibility and a few points keep drawing me back to it. I'm not necessarily arguing it's what happened and have kind of given up coming to a fixed conclusion, but for the purposes of this discussion, it is helpful to separate whether we are trying to track Ashara's baby or Elia's baby and not necessarily assume two live children were switched.

[purple-eyes]

I feel that Rhaegar and lyanna are " love at first sight" since GRRM is very romantic. 

Lyanna already fell for Rhaegar's beauty and singing skills when he sang, like Sansa. Then she felt that Rhaegar was so brave and noble to hide her from anger of Aerys so she just fell in deepest love and forgot everything. And Rhaegar fell for her bravery and beauty and honor so he immediately forgot his fragile and boring wife. This is GRRM's only perfect and beautiful dream love story in his dark series. Actually in his main series, all love affairs are one-sided and/or twisted. He kept all his perfect dream for Rhaegar and Lyanna, his Romeo and Juliet. 

[RedPriest]

Honour is the important thing here. Do you think Rhaegar would just desert his wife and children, and Lyanna desert her honour to run away without so much a a by-your-leave note? A love runaway does  not explain anything, and it would turn the prelude to Robert's Rebellion into a second-rate fairytale with a sad ending. I have no idea whether GRRM is a romantic or not, but he'd hardly degrade his own series this way. It doesn't make sense, it has nothing to support it. You can talk about the QoLaB, but it seems a silly, immoral, and stupid thing to do from the point of a love story. By all accounts, he was fond of Elia, and wouldn't have shamed her in that way, unless there was something else in the equation. Why would they run away, without letting anybody know? And why wouldn't he explain his actions, which could have stopped RsR? There is nothing for the love story, but clumsy props, which are an evident coverup by GRRM. 

Oh, and BTW, good work, we've had a really good debate about the events leading up to RsR, this topic, has been a success

[IceFire125]

42 minutes ago, RedPriest said:

Honour is the important thing here. Do you think Rhaegar would just desert his wife and children, and Lyanna desert her honour to run away without so much a a by-your-leave note? A love runaway does  not explain anything, and it would turn the prelude to Robert's Rebellion into a second-rate fairytale with a sad ending. I have no idea whether GRRM is a romantic or not, but he'd hardly degrade his own series this way. It doesn't make sense, it has nothing to support it. You can talk about the QoLaB, but it seems a silly, immoral, and stupid thing to do from the point of a love story. By all accounts, he was fond of Elia, and wouldn't have shamed her in that way, unless there was something else in the equation. Why would they run away, without letting anybody know? And why wouldn't he explain his actions, which could have stopped RsR? There is nothing for the love story, but clumsy props, which are an evident coverup by GRRM. 

Oh, and BTW, good work, we've had a really good debate about the events leading up to RsR, this topic, has been a success

What!??

I'm sorry, if I was GRRM, I would take offense into what you just said, "degrading"?? really??

I suggest you learn more about the author of the series, A Song of Ice and Fire.

NG: Looking back at the space operas you produced early in your career, two related features stand out: intense Romanticism, and melancholy Gothicism. What influences, what artistic and personal considerations, impelled you in these literary directions?

GRRM: I was always intensely Romantic, even when I was too young to understand what that meant. But Romanticism has its dark side, as any Romantic soon discovers... which is where the melancholy comes in, I suppose. I don't know if this is a matter of artistic influences so much as it is of temperament. But there's always been something in a twilight that moves me, and a sunset speaks to me in a way that no sunrise ever has.

http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/nonfiction/intgrrm.htm

So, I disagree with your words describing that GRRM will "degrade" himself as an author with the story he has written thus far, clearly pointing to immense romanticist route between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it.

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, RedPriest said:

Honour is the important thing here. Do you think Rhaegar would just desert his wife and children, and Lyanna desert her honour to run away without so much a a by-your-leave note? A love runaway does  not explain anything, and it would turn the prelude to Robert's Rebellion into a second-rate fairytale with a sad ending. I have no idea whether GRRM is a romantic or not, but he'd hardly degrade his own series this way. It doesn't make sense, it has nothing to support it. You can talk about the QoLaB, but it seems a silly, immoral, and stupid thing to do from the point of a love story. By all accounts, he was fond of Elia, and wouldn't have shamed her in that way, unless there was something else in the equation. Why would they run away, without letting anybody know? And why wouldn't he explain his actions, which could have stopped RsR? There is nothing for the love story, but clumsy props, which are an evident coverup by GRRM. 

Oh, and BTW, good work, we've had a really good debate about the events leading up to RsR, this topic, has been a success

GRRM already answered you: love is the death of honor. That is why their love is so great and overwhelming. They gave up everything for their love! 

If lyanna and rhaegar both are single and available, and they just loved and married without issue, who will say this is a great love story? 

Nobody. It is just a boring story. 

Rhaegar had to have a good wife and children, lyanna had to have a champion-level fiancée, they abandoned all of these for love, then their love also led to the deaths of thousands of innocent people, then only their love can be called great and impressive and classical and whatever. 

You pay 10 bucks for a fast food lunch, or you pay 1000 dollars for a finest lunch in town. 

Which one is more impressive? 

[RedPriest]

If he's such a Romantic, why would he create a romance which can only be described in the third person, is in the past of the series, and has an indirect effect on the series, if any at all?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

16 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Lyanna is the girl who didn't want to marry a man who already has a bastard, and already had the sense to know that he would never be faithful to any wife. Do you really think it's possible that she ran away with a married Prince with two children?

There is a big difference between being lumbered with a man whom you are not in love with, who you know will cheat on you and becoming the second wife of a man whom you are in love with. And I truly believe there is no other reason to include polygamy in a story unless it will serve a purpose.  IMO Rhaegar & Lyanna got married.

Lyanna lives in the North and the Prince lives in Dragonstone. Please tell me how they could have fell in love and planned to elope? Is Riverrun so very far away from Dragonstone? Why was she taken in the middle of journey? Why at swordpoint making it very likely that Rhaegar could get hurt in the process and maybe even Lyanna?

They spent a brief period of time together at the Tourney, and that is enough for me. Have you never fallen head over heels for someone who you hardly know? A holliday romance is the perfect example. You meet, there is a heady atmosphere, you get caught up in it all and decide you are in love. I still remember  a boy from church camp when I was 13, he was called Nathan and so handsome. In Westeros they have ravens, and so after the Tourney they can stay in touch, and after Aegon's birth and Elia's no longer being able to provide children, Rhaegar forms a plan. 

Simple explanation, it is easier to take Lyanna away from her guards on the rd than it is in a castle where a High lord is able to assert his authority, send ravens to your father, delay your leave. etc. Surprising a half dozen knights on the road makes it a lot easier. Seriously, who'se going to wave a sword in the crown princes face? faced with Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent and four other knights, with their swords out. Would you risk it coming to blows? The penalty for striking the royal blood is to loose your hand.  The swords are there to give the Winterfell guards the ability to save face. No one was seriously ever going to cross swords in this encounter. Lyanna simply spurs her horse on, joins the group waving swords about, you know the one with the crown prince at it's head. And the Winterfell guard exchange some words with him, he makes vague threats about the fact they have them outclassed by a mile. Then everyone rides off in opposite directions. When the guard arrive at Riverrun they inform Brandon that Lyanna has been taken by the prince and he looses his shit, rides for KL and the rest is history. 

 

If they want to run away and stay hidden they should have taken the safe route: elope secretly, so this would give them time to stay away from their persecutors a longer time. Uh, where is Lyanna? Where in seven hells is Prince Rhaegar? But making it look like it was an abduction for "all Westeros to see", lol, I love this kind of expression, sorry, would only give them little time to hide. Rhaegar and Lyanna could have ran away disguised, in the middle of the night, please there are so many other better plans to choose...

This way Lyanna has to make her way, alone, through the entire length practically of the country, all the while with her fathers men searching for her, word is put out and every hedge knight and farm hand between Winterfell and the Neck is looking for her, she can ride fast & isn't useless with a sword, but that Journey would take months. Alone, unguarded, with every man in the realm searching for you. It isn't impossible that she would make it far enough to get passage to Dragonstone. But she then has to then persuade a ships captain to give her passage. Or Rhaegar and she arrange via raven before hand to meet somewhere else and she has to make her way to say the ToJ direct. Alone. And he just hopes that she manages to get there. And that either he gets there first or she is safe on her own until he arrives. It isn't very chivalrous is it,or safe for that matter.

But Rhaegar can travel freely throughout the realm, And Brandons wedding gives Lyanna the opportunity to travel as far as the RL's legitimately, with an armed guard under her fathers banner, and so she is safe from attack by bandits & opportunist predators who would abuse a young woman alone on the rd, and there is no chance of anyone forcing her back to Wf on the journey, as her dad knows she is headed south for her brothers nuptials. All Rhaegar has to do is meet her at the agreed place, he was probably laying in wait for a week or more at the agreed place just waiting for her party to get there, then he rides onto the rd in front of her party, tells her guard to hand her over, and they are off, she is now under his protection and she has got away safely without risk to her life through travelling alone.  

GRRM being a romantic doesn't make this theory any more plausible. And yes, there WAS romance. Otherwise Jon would not have been conceived.

Err, not sure what you mean by this.  The idea of there being a romance between the two is more plausible when we take into account the fact the author is a self confessed romantic. And yeah Jon being conceived kinda hints at a love affair. So you admit this, but deny that the theory of them being in love is plausible even though the text points to it an dthe author tells us he's a big fan of traditional romance motifs in literature. 

But when did they fall in love?

Ah, are you one of these people who think they didn't fall in love until after they were at the ToJ? When you go down this route you ignore all the in text nods to romance that the author gives us pre the ToJ, and you ignore the authors own words that he is a romantic, you also ignore all the heavy nods to traditional romance literature, to folk tales and mythology which the author has littered throughout not only R+L's story but the novels as a whole. 

Why? Why are you so desperate for there not to be a love story here?

I'm not invested in their story in the way some are (in either direction) I am simply assessing the story as a whole and concluding the likely plot from the standpoint of someone who has a decent grasp on literary techniques, real world history, and a healthy interest in folklore & mythology. Everything points to a love story for these two. A messy, tragic, elopement gone wrong.

If Lyanna had not been crowned QoLaB I would even accept a theory, not based on books, that she might have stayed in the South and thus kissed Rhaegar once or twice.  I am sure, though, her brothers took her home after "all the smiles died"; away from the Prince as much as they could, and this also made it plausible why Brandon thinks she was kidnapped.

This is not relevant, we have no text to tell us what did or did not happen after she was crowned QoL&B beyond Brandon being angry, and Robert feigning dismissiveness over the deed.  

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How could they have been suddenly so much in love with each other to run away in this scenario, and so stupid not to run away after she arrived safely at Riverrun? I am sure Lyanna was an intelligent girl. So being The Knight of the Laughing Tree was her doom because after that pantomime Rhaegar discovered the truth and they fell deeply in love? This is why you think her "wolf blood" brought her an early death? Compared to her brother Brandon she might have had only a drop of wolf blood, if that is the case. Oh, Lyanna! So stubborn, wanted to pretend to be a knight and, oh, the horror, because of that temper she had, the Prince fell in love with her and they ran away to have a baby they could not be sure would be really conceived and would really survive.

 I think I answered this already.   There is no hint Lyanna had a bad temper, only that she was wilfull and liked to take part in sword practice and riding at tilts. We have hints she was romantic in her crying at Rhaegars songs. And in a way Arya & Sansa represent both sides to Lyanna. So we can use the two girls as a guide to Lyanna's personality to an extent. The wolf blood in her was what led her to follow her heart and go to marry Rhaegar against her fathers will, as he'd already arranged a match.  They had no reason to think she would not be able to provide children. In the absence of evidence to the contrary you assume that you are fertile. 

They fell in love after the fake abduction/elopement, after the rescuing.

And I ask you yet again where is your evidence? You have yet to provide a single quote which even vaguely hints at this. Instead constantly asking me to defend my stance. 

Oh, wait! You were not talking about love, but about fulfilling prophecies. So in your theory not only Lyanna fell for Rhaegar as only Sansa would have but she also believed that, even before Elia's child was born, she was "his Ice and he was her Fire"? So before Rhaegar found out that Elia could not have more children, they already have fallen in love with each other and planned the stupid elopement because of a prophecy? A girl from the North? A Prince who had already a wife and had to deal with the increasing madness of his father, the mad King? Oh, no,  they planned all this in three months, after Aegon was born. Yeah...

I have said nothing of the sort! You are putting words in my mouth here.

They say Rhaegar was obsessed with the prophecy, but he was obsessed to find out the truth, not to act on impulse and without a good plan.

We have no idea as to what aspect of the prophesy he was obsessed with. You are again supposing too much with no evidence. 

So unless you think Lyanna was as naive as Sansa, and a bit dumb too, and Rhaegar was as crazy as his father was, this theory makes no sense.

No, you have taken your own assumptions and supposition and woven a tableaux of nonsense into the story.  And are using your own flawed "logic" to discredit what we actually do have evidence for.  I ask you again, what evidence do you have for your theory? Because I see non.