The Tower of Joy Discussion

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

2 hours ago, RedPriest said:

If he's such a Romantic, why would he create a romance which can only be described in the third person, is in the past of the series, and has an indirect effect on the series, if any at all?

He's created numerous romances throughout the story, the whole story is littered with love stories. He's openly talked about what a romantic he is, Many of the romances in the books happen off screen, some are experienced first hand by the reader through POV's some are witnessed and conveyed via POV's who are there, others we hear about through gossip, some are historical and others contemporary. 

Some shape the direction of the story, some give character development, motivations, and context to other characters actions.  This story is dripping with romance. And R&L are just one of many romantic pairings whose actions effect the story. 

[purple-eyes]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

He's created numerous romances throughout the story, the whole story is littered with love stories. He's openly talked about what a romantic he is, Many of the romances in the books happen off screen, some are experienced first hand by the reader through POV's some are witnessed and conveyed via POV's who are there, others we hear about through gossip, some are historical and others contemporary. 

Some shape the direction of the story, some give character development, motivations, and context to other characters actions.  This story is dripping with romance. And R&L are just one of many romantic pairings whose actions effect the story. 

actually on top of my head I can not think about any real romantic mutual love pairs in the book except two R and L s. 

rhaegar and lyanna

renly and loras. 

[house of dayne]

40 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

actually on top of my head I can not think about any real romantic mutual love pairs in the book except two R and L s. 

rhaegar and lyanna

renly and loras. 

Tyrion and penny....awwww

[Jon Snow Nothing]

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

No, you have taken your own assumptions and supposition and woven a tableaux of nonsense into the story.  And are using your own flawed "logic" to discredit what we actually do have evidence for.  I ask you again, what evidence do you have for your theory? Because I see non. 

Well, I tried to give up but you being so agressive made me agressive too

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

?????

Weirwoods Eyes, you shouldn't reply ot me inside a quote. I can't answer you this way, have to select everything, copy and paste to answer you.

There is a big difference between being lumbered with a man whom you are not in love with, who you know will cheat on you and becoming the second wife of a man whom you are in love with. And I truly believe there is no other reason to include polygamy in a story unless it will serve a purpose.  IMO Rhaegar & Lyanna got married.

Imo Rhaegar and Lyanna got married, yes, but there is no sign that she had contact with Rhaegar after the tourney. Her brothers would not leave her in the South near Rhaegar, after the tourney. Like I wrote, they fell in love after the rescue and got married. Maybe before, or maybe after Jon was conceived. And the marriage was legal becase Aerys gave them the legitimacy, and a royal pardon. This is what Hightower brought Rhaegar and made it possible to convince Rhaegar to leave pregnant Lyanna to try to save the Targaryen dinasty.

They spent a brief period of time together at the Tourney, and that is enough for me. Have you never fallen head over heels for someone who you hardly know? A holliday romance is the perfect example. You meet, there is a heady atmosphere, you get caught up in it all and decide you are in love. I still remember  a boy from church camp when I was 13, he was called Nathan and so handsome. In Westeros they have ravens, and so after the Tourney they can stay in touch, and after Aegon's birth and Elia's no longer being able to provide children, Rhaegar forms a plan. 

Where is it written that they spent time together at the Tourney? They only met and talked briefly, and we are supposing things that are not in the text. They are all THEORIES. What part of that you can not understand? There is not such a thing as love at first sight and not contact at all after that for one year and running away like two stupid people without planning. Rhaegar was MARRIED. If he wanted Lyanna so much, wouldn't he try to get a divorce first? Or ask Aerys to marry again? Running away after his first wife has given him a son? It. makes. no. sense.

Simple explanation, it is easier to take Lyanna away from her guards on the rd than it is in a castle where a High lord is able to assert his authority, send ravens to your father, delay your leave. etc. Surprising a half dozen knights on the road makes it a lot easier. Seriously, who'se going to wave a sword in the crown princes face? faced with Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent and four other knights, with their swords out. Would you risk it coming to blows? The penalty for striking the royal blood is to loose your hand.  The swords are there to give the Winterfell guards the ability to save face. No one was seriously ever going to cross swords in this encounter. Lyanna simply spurs her horse on, joins the group waving swords about, you know the one with the crown prince at it's head. And the Winterfell guard exchange some words with him, he makes vague threats about the fact they have them outclassed by a mile. Then everyone rides off in opposite directions. When the guard arrive at Riverrun they inform Brandon that Lyanna has been taken by the prince and he looses his shit, rides for KL and the rest is history. 

It does not make any sense to me, sorry. There were risks going on taking Lyanna at swordpoint. They could be easily followed.

This way Lyanna has to make her way, alone, through the entire length practically of the country, all the while with her fathers men searching for her, word is put out and every hedge knight and farm hand between Winterfell and the Neck is looking for her, she can ride fast & isn't useless with a sword, but that Journey would take months. Alone, unguarded, with every man in the realm searching for you. It isn't impossible that she would make it far enough to get passage to Dragonstone. But she then has to then persuade a ships captain to give her passage. Or Rhaegar and she arrange via raven before hand to meet somewhere else and she has to make her way to say the ToJ direct. Alone. And he just hopes that she manages to get there. And that either he gets there first or she is safe on her own until he arrives. It isn't very chivalrous is it,or safe for that matter.

You didn't pay attention when GRRM tells us what Lyanna is capable of, and if indeed she was the KoTLT - it is not in text, remember we are here talking about theories, she is indeed very capable from escaping RIVERRUN. Not Winterfell. She was already in the South again, so why escape with Rhaegar like this if theycan scheme other ways for her to run away with him, giving them more time?

But Rhaegar can travel freely throughout the realm, And Brandons wedding gives Lyanna the opportunity to travel as far as the RL's legitimately, with an armed guard under her fathers banner, and so she is safe from attack by bandits & opportunist predators who would abuse a young woman alone on the rd, and there is no chance of anyone forcing her back to Wf on the journey, as her dad knows she is headed south for her brothers nuptials. All Rhaegar has to do is meet her at the agreed place, he was probably laying in wait for a week or more at the agreed place just waiting for her party to get there, then he rides onto the rd in front of her party, tells her guard to hand her over, and they are off, she is now under his protection and she has got away safely without risk to her life through travelling alone.  

Again, it makes no sense, she can escape her guards easily at night, they can escape easily together, why would they choose the more complicated and risky way?

Err, not sure what you mean by this.  The idea of there being a romance between the two is more plausible when we take into account the fact the author is a self confessed romantic. And yeah Jon being conceived kinda hints at a love affair. So you admit this, but deny that the theory of them being in love is plausible even though the text points to it an dthe author tells us he's a big fan of traditional romance motifs in literature. 

Jon and Ygritte's story is the reason I think Rhaegar and Lyanna followed that path. Ygritte was supposed to be a man. TKoTLT was supposed to be a man. Jon is taken by surprise, but he doesn't fall in love immediately. They get together because of circunstances, and after time has passed and they know each other more and more, they fall in love. Thinking "oh she's cute" "oh, he's so handsome" does not equal love at first sight. Being a romantic mean he believes in true love, and true love needs time.

are you one of these people who think they didn't fall in love until after they were at the ToJ? When you go down this route you ignore all the in text nods to romance that the author gives us pre the ToJ, and you ignore the authors own words that he is a romantic, you also ignore all the heavy nods to traditional romance literature, to folk tales and mythology which the author has littered throughout not only R+L's story but the novels as a whole. 

Why? Why are you so desperate for there not to be a love story here?

Have you read what I wrote? I agree they were in love when Jon was conceived, but not when they disappeared together... Geez. What love stories have you been reading? Vampire love at first sight "mine", "she is mine" stories? I am not ignoring the authors words, but I see no reason to believe in a very fragile and nonsensical theory because he said he was romantic... so what? And rescueing a girl from a mad man, risking his life, putting his friends, who were KG, in a very risky position, this shows the beginning of a romance. Just like when Jon does not kill Ygritte.

I'm not invested in their story in the way some are (in either direction) I am simply assessing the story as a whole and concluding the likely plot from the standpoint of someone who has a decent grasp on literary techniques, real world history, and a healthy interest in folklore & mythology. Everything points to a love story for these two. A messy, tragic, elopement gone wrong.

Really? Maybe you should study a little more and read more too.

"If Lyanna had not been crowned QoLaB I would even accept a theory, not based on books, that she might have stayed in the South and thus kissed Rhaegar once or twice.  I am sure, though, her brothers took her home after "all the smiles died"; away from the Prince as much as they could, and this also made it plausible why Brandon thinks she was kidnapped." ---- me

This is not relevant, we have no text to tell us what did or did not happen after she was crowned QoL&B beyond Brandon being angry, and Robert feigning dismissiveness over the deed.  

We have no text to tell us that Lyanna had any contact with Rhaegar after or before being crowned. As I wrote before, we are writing here about theories. If a girl is considered a Queen of Love and Beauty by a married Prince, who happens to be a Crown Prince, and a Targaryen, a family who are not only allowed to marry sister to brother (R, V and D father and mother were siblings), but to practice polygamy, what do you think this family would do? Leave her behind in the South? Do you really think they would like Lyanna to be a second wife to Rhaegar, or worse? To be a mistress? Of course, if we use common sense, she was sent back to Winterfell and stayed there.

I think I answered this already.  There is no hint Lyanna had a bad temper, only that she was wilfull and liked to take part in sword practice and riding at tilts. We have hints she was romantic in her crying at Rhaegars songs. And in a way Arya & Sansa represent both sides to Lyanna. So we can use the two girls as a guide to Lyanna's personality to an extent. The wolf blood in her was what led her to follow her heart and go to marry Rhaegar against her fathers will, as he'd already arranged a match.  They had no reason to think she would not be able to provide children. In the absence of evidence to the contrary you assume that you are fertile. 

You misunderstood me. Not even Brandon had a bad temper. They were impulsive. When Ned tells Arya she reminds him of Lyanna, Arya is so surprised. She does not know her aunt liked to fight and rode a horse like a champion. We have these two facts in text, do not forget it. Bran saw Lyanna and Benjen playing to fight with swords and Lyanna wins, lol. And everyone knows she is "half horse". All women were touched by Rhaegar's songs. This means she is a girl, probably already smitten by Rhaegar, but not completely in love as to run away a year after they briefly met!

"They fell in love after the fake abduction/elopement, after the rescuing." --- me

And I ask you yet again where is your evidence? You have yet to provide a single quote which even vaguely hints at this. Instead constantly asking me to defend my stance. 

What evidence? I already told you it was not possible for two intelligent people to fall completely in love in mere minutes and plan to run away without further contact. There are people here who think Lyanna is stupid, and Rhaegar a bit crazy. I just ignore what they write from now on. But I want to know how these two could have fallen in love before the "event" (abducting/raping/elopement, whatever). They need to at least kiss, talk about things they like and so on. Lyanna and Rhaegar would be risking everything in this elopement. Sorry, I disagree they were in love. As I wrote, unless in book 6 there is evidence that Lyanna stayed in the South and could see Rhaegar secretly and frequently (the love theory), or if we are told Rhaegar had the visit from a sorcerer or witch, a seer, that told him to kidnap her (the rape theory), then, no, that should be a better explanation for the "event".

No, you have taken your own assumptions and supposition and woven a tableaux of nonsense into the story.  And are using your own flawed "logic" to discredit what we actually do have evidence for.  I ask you again, what evidence do you have for your theory? Because I see non. 

You can call my logic a flawed "logic", but in my opinion everything on the books points to this. I have not read TWOIAF but I read some parts and the KoTLT was mentioned on the book, and Aerys madness about not finding who the person was was mentioned too. So, very relevant. Also, GRRM tells us that Aerys is paranoid about Lords wanting to depose him. The North, according to Robert Baratheon in the very beginning of the books, equals almost all the other six Kingdoms together. We are told that Lord Rickard had "southern ambitions" and that marrying his daughter to the Baratheon heir and his son to a Tully might have made Aerys a bit more than suspicious. We know what Aerys thought of the tourney, and all Stark kids were there. We know Aerys told Rhaegar to find out who this man was, and Rhaegar said he could not find him, only a shield. We know Lyanna was escorted to go to her brother's marriage in Riverrun, and we know that what people saw was king's people fighting the men who were protecting her and then the said king's son running away with her, along with two KG. We know that a third KG, not connected by friendship with Rhaegar, found him and convinced him to leave Lyanna behind and fight for the Targaryens. We know this third KG did not return to King's Landing! And this was the Lord Commander! We know Rhaegar was Crown Prince but that Aerys was not fond of him at all, and would never forgive a treason. We know Lyanna died with black rose petals inside her hand - this is not in Ned dreams, but he actually remembers this. We know Rhaegar, months before the "event" thought his son was TPTWP. Dany's vision was a product of hallucination so we are not sure what Rhaegar told Elia and later we find out that 3 heads of Dragon in the prophecy did not meant three siblings. We know how Aerys killed the Lord of Winterfell and his heir, and that he demanded Ned and Bob heads after. We know GRRM loves to put red herrings everywhere, so even if something is in the text, we have to be careful to consider this as truth.

So there, you believe in love at first sight, romantic Lyanna falling head over heels with obsessed Rhaegar. I believe in fierce and brave Lyanna, a girl nonetheless, who migh fall in love with a man, but not at first sight. I believe in a dutiful Rhaegar who would only risk his reputation and the lives of his family if something very important was about to happen and that he didn't have much time to think what should be done. There is love in the theory I embrace. True love, not mere infatuation.

 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

20 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

actually on top of my head I can not think about any real romantic mutual love pairs in the book except two R and L s. 

rhaegar and lyanna

renly and loras. 

Well in that case you have missed an awful lot in these books. There are a lot of romances. I advice you check out the archived re thinking romance threads in the re read section. 

Romance isn't confined to emotionally healthy mature relationships. Especially not when we are discussing literature. You yourself mentioned Romeo & Juliet earlier and I'm not likening the two to R&L exactly. But you do realise that this story, one which is universally recognised as a romance and possibly the most famous romantic tragedy of our history. Is the tale of two teenagers who fall in love at a ball. That is one night. He spies her from across the room and forgets Rosaline and declares he loves Juliet. By the reasoning of yourself and of jon snow nothing. This can not possibly have happened and the idea of them agreeing to be married after just one night and then going on to die for that love is absurd. Yet it is a world renowned romantic tragedy, celebrated for hundreds of years and indeed pre dates Shakespeare's written version of it. And there are numerous other stories with similar themes, the point being that what you call love and what others call love may not align, and what is called love in literature frequently seems unlikely. The idea of love at first sight is a cliche for a reason, precisely because it is such a commonly used theme in romances.

Now note I am not claiming love at first sight in R&L. I am using the clues in the text. Her crying at his song, and being embarrassed at being caught doing so (evidence-drenching Benjen in her wine) Her playing TKOTLT and Rhaegar being sent to discover the mystery Knights identity (this gives us reason for him to be aware of her defence of Howland, her skills, her personality etc.) The motif of the shield hanging in the tree is evocative of the various folktales which involve an animal, transformed into a beautiful woman spied by a man usually whilst bathing, but in all cases naked, her skin hanging in a tree near by. GRRM uses this folktale to inspire Maidenpool and the song which accompanies this story too. So we have evidence Lyanna and Rhaegar had opportunity to meet, and reason to admire one another. And we have a romantic motif used in this story.

Then Rhaegar wins the Tourney and places the Crown of Love & Beauty in her lap. The imagary is two fold here, he is literally declaring that she is queen of love & beauty to him. Choosing her over his actual wife. and he places the crown of blue roses in her lap, which symbolises the child to come, whom he places in her womb. This is reiterated later through Dany's vision of the blue rose smelling sweet growing in a chink in the wall. just in case we were not already sure this child is Jon Snow. 

All of this so far is in line with traditional love stories, where time in a play, or pages in a book are sparse and the author utilises heavy symbolism to convey falling in love. If we put symbolism aside Rhaegar & Lyanna would have had practically a few short hours to get to know one another, when he found her as TKOTLT. Couple this with genuine attraction and desire which can indeed hit you like a brick wall on occasions. And you have the answer to why he crowned her. 

Jorah & Lynesse are as an aside a good example of the author again utilising the idea of falling in love very rapidly without really knowing the other person leading to a marriage. But in this version they do not live happily ever after indeed the shine wears off and misery sets in.  

So no not love at first sight as such, more love at first meeting, and heavy use of literary themes to convey this. After the Tourney both went their own ways, and probably ( I assume this because we have no evidence to suggest otherwise) Rhaegar did not think he would go on to plan an elopement with this girl. And Lyanna had feelings too but did not think for one minute anything could ever come of it. But several months later Elia is declared no longer able to provide children & Rhaegar sets out to meet Lyanna on the Rd to Riverrun. Obviously he can't have just gone out one day hoping to come across her. They must have communicated. Raven being the only way and so a plan must have been discussed.

 I'd suggest as the most sensible option, that after Elia's second birth, Rhaegar thought long and hard about the Prophesy and concluded he must take a second wife to provide the vital third child. And settled on asking Lyanna because he had indeed been enchanted by her beauty, her spirit and her personality. At which points Ravens flew and an agreement was made. But there is not direct evidence for this. It is only a conclusion I come to based on what is practical. I mean he can't text her. 

Another good example of historical "love at first sight" is the story of how Elizabeth Woodville & Edward IV came to be married. The story goes that after Edward was crowned Elizabeth took her two young sons and waited behind an oak tree to gain audience with the King, whom she knew would be riding that way. In order to beg for charity, as she was widowed due to her husband having fought against his forces. And his family were refusing to support them. She it is said was so beautiful and he was so intrigued by her that he fell in love right there and then, but she refused to become his mistress, instead insisting that if he wanted her he must marry her. And so he did. In a secret ceremony at her family home on May day.    

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

18 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

snip

I really think we've gone beyond all productive discussion now. 

I have laid out my thoughts on their relationship, I have discussed the various reasons for these thoughts and used quotes, historical similarities, literary traditions and examples of mythology and folk tale, as well as discussing the author and his thoughts on the topic.

And all you come back with is that you don't think it was this way. You offer no viable alternative and no in text evidence to support your ideas. Aerys being mad is not enough to pin an entire theory on. you would need some quotes to show evidence that he had a specific vendetta against the Starks before the events of KL and Brandon. You would need evidence that he did discover who TKOTLT was and that he wished to punish Lyanna for her actions specifically. 

You are reasoning about these characters as if they were real life living people and not characters in a book, whose actions serve the narrative.  Yes GRRM does flesh his characters out and make them far more believable than many authors have done. But he also uses traditional story telling techniques and knows and understands themes and motifs for setting a certain type of tale up.

There is no way that you can convince me without evidence to back it up that Aerys was after Lyanna. You can't deny they loved each other. Because it is right there in the evidence, Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna, and Ned not thinking bad thoughts about Rhaegar.  So you construct a scenario in which they have reason to run off together and then fall in love. Because you won't accept love is or can be anything outside of your own strict parameters. Which ignores hundreds of years of story telling history. 

[RedPriest]

I think I should point out, that in terms of ASolaF itself, there really isn't any direct evidence of the romantic picture you're painting. It's basically just the QoLaB, and their mutual disappearance, which lead people to their own conclusions

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Well in that case you have missed an awful lot in these books. There are a lot of romances. I advice you check out the archived re thinking romance threads in the re read section. 

Romance isn't confined to emotionally healthy mature relationships. Especially not when we are discussing literature. You yourself mentioned Romeo & Juliet earlier and I'm not likening the two to R&L exactly. But you do realise that this story, one which is universally recognised as a romance and possibly the most famous romantic tragedy of our history. Is the tale of two teenagers who fall in love at a ball. That is one night. He spies her from across the room and forgets Rosaline and declares he loves Juliet. By the reasoning of yourself and of jon snow nothing. This can not possibly have happened and the idea of them agreeing to be married after just one night and then going on to die for that love is absurd. Yet it is a world renowned romantic tragedy, celebrated for hundreds of years and indeed pre dates Shakespeare's written version of it. And there are numerous other stories with similar themes, the point being that what you call love and what others call love may not align, and what is called love in literature frequently seems unlikely. The idea of love at first sight is a cliche for a reason, precisely because it is such a commonly used theme in romances.

Now note I am not claiming love at first sight in R&L. I am using the clues in the text. Her crying at his song, and being embarrassed at being caught doing so (evidence-drenching Benjen in her wine) Her playing TKOTLT and Rhaegar being sent to discover the mystery Knights identity (this gives us reason for him to be aware of her defence of Howland, her skills, her personality etc.) The motif of the shield hanging in the tree is evocative of the various folktales which involve an animal, transformed into a beautiful woman spied by a man usually whilst bathing, but in all cases naked, her skin hanging in a tree near by. GRRM uses this folktale to inspire Maidenpool and the song which accompanies this story too. So we have evidence Lyanna and Rhaegar had opportunity to meet, and reason to admire one another. And we have a romantic motif used in this story.

Then Rhaegar wins the Tourney and places the Crown of Love & Beauty in her lap. The imagary is two fold here, he is literally declaring that she is queen of love & beauty to him. Choosing her over his actual wife. and he places the crown of blue roses in her lap, which symbolises the child to come, whom he places in her womb. This is reiterated later through Dany's vision of the blue rose smelling sweet growing in a chink in the wall. just in case we were not already sure this child is Jon Snow. 

All of this so far is in line with traditional love stories, where time in a play, or pages in a book are sparse and the author utilises heavy symbolism to convey falling in love. If we put symbolism aside Rhaegar & Lyanna would have had practically a few short hours to get to know one another, when he found her as TKOTLT. Couple this with genuine attraction and desire which can indeed hit you like a brick wall on occasions. And you have the answer to why he crowned her. 

Jorah & Lynesse are as an aside a good example of the author again utilising the idea of falling in love very rapidly without really knowing the other person leading to a marriage. But in this version they do not live happily ever after indeed the shine wears off and misery sets in.  

So no not love at first sight as such, more love at first meeting, and heavy use of literary themes to convey this. After the Tourney both went their own ways, and probably ( I assume this because we have no evidence to suggest otherwise) Rhaegar did not think he would go on to plan an elopement with this girl. And Lyanna had feelings too but did not think for one minute anything could ever come of it. But several months later Elia is declared no longer able to provide children & Rhaegar sets out to meet Lyanna on the Rd to Riverrun. Obviously he can't have just gone out one day hoping to come across her. They must have communicated. Raven being the only way and so a plan must have been discussed.

 I'd suggest as the most sensible option, that after Elia's second birth, Rhaegar thought long and hard about the Prophesy and concluded he must take a second wife to provide the vital third child. And settled on asking Lyanna because he had indeed been enchanted by her beauty, her spirit and her personality. At which points Ravens flew and an agreement was made. But there is not direct evidence for this. It is only a conclusion I come to based on what is practical. I mean he can't text her. 

Another good example of historical "love at first sight" is the story of how Elizabeth Woodville & Edward IV came to be married. The story goes that after Edward was crowned Elizabeth took her two young sons and waited behind an oak tree to gain audience with the King, whom she knew would be riding that way. In order to beg for charity, as she was widowed due to her husband having fought against his forces. And his family were refusing to support them. She it is said was so beautiful and he was so intrigued by her that he fell in love right there and then, but she refused to become his mistress, instead insisting that if he wanted her he must marry her. And so he did. In a secret ceremony at her family home on May day.    

I just want to remind you that Lyanna played as KOLT in the end of one day. Then the same night at the dinner, Aerys declared that she is enemy and encouraged all his knights to defeat her. then the next day, she did not show up and then rhaegar was sent to find her. 

so unless lyanna still wore her armor and dressed as knight and ran around at the next day morning after she knew aerys' anger (quite unlikely), then your "woman bathe and naked and hanged skin stuff" cliche are not fit for this story. 

all rhaegar can do is to investigate: find those three knights, figure out about three boys and howland, found howland, knew about lyanna (or lyanna jumped out when rhaegar wanted to send howland to his daddy), then helped lyanna to hide. this is not that romantic I guess. 

And the reason of their overwhelming love is because it is a forbidden love: both cheated on their spouse/fiancee. that is why they are so exciting that they had to run away. 

[OuttaOldtown]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

You are reasoning about these characters as if they were real life living people and not characters in a book, whose actions serve the narrative.  Yes GRRM does flesh his characters out and make them far more believable than many authors have done. But he also uses traditional story telling techniques and knows and understands themes and motifs for setting a certain type of tale up.

Alas! Someone who gets it...

[teej6]

4 hours ago, RedPriest said:

I think I should point out, that in terms of ASolaF itself, there really isn't any direct evidence of the romantic picture you're painting. It's basically just the QoLaB, and their mutual disappearance, which lead people to their own conclusions

You really should read the books more thoroughly. There are several hints and observations from characters (other than Robert Baratheon) that indicate Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love. Barriston thinks that Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it. Then there's Dany's vision of Rhaegar dying with a woman's name on his lips. Any guesses who's name that could be.

[OuttaOldtown]

4 minutes ago, teej6 said:

You really should read the books more thoroughly. There are several hints and observations from characters (other than Robert Baratheon) that indicate Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love. Barriston thinks that Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it. Then there's Dany's vision of Rhaegar dying with a woman's name on his lips. Any guesses who's name that could be.

Just because we learn that there was a love between them (which I don't doubt there was) doesn't automatically mean it was the primary reason they ran off together..

[teej6]

On August 11, 2016 at 0:44 PM, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Lyanna is the girl who didn't want to marry a man who already has a bastard, and already had the sense to know that he would never be faithful to any wife. Do you really think it's possible that she ran away with a married Prince with two children?

Lyanna didn't want to marry Robert because she thought (perhaps rightly) that Robert couldn't keep to one bed. Never is it indicated that Rhaegar was a womanizer. In fact Ned and Barristan's thoughts indicate quite the opposite. Rhaegar was dutiful to Elia up until he met Lyanna and fell in love with her. So Lyanna fell in love with a married man and her thoughts about Robert does not preclude this from happening. 

As to the rest of your post, I really can't decipher what you're trying to argue. As for people remembering Rhaegar abducting Lyanna, one could argue that Rhaegar made it look like an abduction to protect Lyanna's and the Starks' honour. Rhaegar decided to take the shame upon himself. Seems like a very noble thing to do and from several characters' thoughts about Rhaegar, he was noble and honorable. 

[teej6]

7 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Just because we learn that there was a love between them (which I don't doubt there was) doesn't automatically mean it was the primary reason they ran off together..

What little we know of the character of Lyanna, I highly doubt that she's going to fall in love with the person who abducted her. If there was no love between the two, I don't see any logical reason for Lyanna to go willingly with Rhaegar. 

[OuttaOldtown]

Just now, teej6 said:

What little we know of the character of Lyanna, I highly doubt that she's going to fall in love with the person who abducted her. If there was no love between the two, I don't see any logical reason for Lyanna to go willingly with Rhaegar. 

I get that, I'm saying she went willingly  with him and love resulted, but I'm not so certain that it was initially due to love. I believe George is a more intricate writer than that..

[teej6]

1 minute ago, OuttaOldtown said:

I get that, I'm saying she went willingly  with him and love resulted, but I'm not so certain that it was initially due to love. I believe George is a more intricate writer than that..

Again, no logical reason for her to go with him if not for love. It's either Rhaegar abducted her or she went with him willingly because they fell in love. It's not Rhaegar's business to rescue her from a loveless marriage as some have argued up thread. And makes no sense for Lyanna to run off with Rhaegar simply for the reason that she didn't want to marry Robert.  

[OuttaOldtown]

4 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Again, no logical reason for her to go with him if not for love. It's either Rhaegar abducted her or she went with him willingly because they fell in love. It's not Rhaegar's business to rescue her from a loveless marriage as some have argued up thread. And makes no sense for Lyanna to run off with Rhaegar simply for the reason that she didn't want to marry Robert.  

I disagree, and so do many others. I'm leaving my mind open to other reasons based upon the symbolism of ice and fire & the presence of a yet to be fully revealed prophecy, the clues are there. Selmy also hardly knew Rhaegar and didn't know Lyanna at all, the rumor mill of Westeros isn't always the truth, and I believe that is his only source..

[teej6]

5 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

I disagree, and so do many others. I'm leaving my mind open to other reasons based upon the symbolism of ice and fire & the presence of a yet to be fully revealed prophecy, the clues are there. Selmy also hardly knew Rhaegar and didn't know Lyanna at all, the rumor mill of Westeros isn't always the truth, and I believe that is his only source..

I don't see why people find the need to defend their arguments with such blanket statements. As to your argument about "the presence of a yet to be fully revealed prophesy," it was Rhaegar who was obsessed with prophesy, there is no indication that Lyanna believed in or was even aware of any. The posters who subscribe to the prophesy angle also argue that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. Although I myself don't subscribe to it, I can see that as a possibility. But you state that Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar. Such a scenario IMO is not possible unless Lyanna was in love with him. Lyanna wasn't going to go with a man she hardly knew because of some prophesy he believed in. So in your scenario, Rhaegar befriends Lyanna and convinces her to run off with him because of some prophesy he believed in?  

[OuttaOldtown]

2 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I don't see why people find the need to defend their arguments with such blanket statements. As to your argument about "the presence of a yet to be fully revealed prophesy," it was Rhaegar who was obsessed with prophesy, there is no indication that Lyanna believed in or was even aware of any. The posters who subscribe to the prophesy angle also argue that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. Although I myself don't subscribe to it, I can see that as a possibility. But you state that Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar. Such a scenario IMO is not possible unless Lyanna was in love with him. Lyanna wasn't going to go with a man she hardly knew because of some prophesy he believed in. So in your scenario, Rhaegar befriends Lyanna and convinces her to run off with him because of some prophesy he believed in?  

There's also virtually no information about Lyanna, Ned's POVs give us the most but relatively little considering he knew her all her life. You're also totally dismissing the presence of Howland Reed as part of the story and his time at the Isle of the Face, you're also dismissing how similar the events were to Bael the Bard, my experience in reading is these stories within the story are crucial. Your thinking is too absolutist for my taste, you assume far too much, who is to say what Rhaegar knew everything before the tourney? Why is it so unbelievable that perhaps he was piecing the puzzle together for most of his life? You wanna make it all about love, be my guest, I think there's far more to their story..

[teej6]

1 hour ago, OuttaOldtown said:

There's also virtually no information about Lyanna, Ned's POVs give us the most but relatively little considering he knew her all her life. You're also totally dismissing the presence of Howland Reed as part of the story and his time at the Isle of the Face, you're also dismissing how similar the events were to Bael the Bard, my experience in reading is these stories within the story are crucial. Your thinking is too absolutist for my taste, you assume far too much, who is to say what Rhaegar knew everything before the tourney? Why is it so unbelievable that perhaps he was piecing the puzzle together for most of his life? You wanna make it all about love, be my guest, I think there's far more to their story..

I'm not dismissing the theory that Rhaegar believed in prophesy and thought Lyanna was part of that prophesy and therefore abducted her to fufill said prophesy. What I am dismissing is your argument that Lyanna willingly went with Rhaegar (a stranger to her, who she had no feelings for) in order to fulfill some prophesy he believed in as we have no evidence or hints that she or any of her family believed in any kind of prophesy. We are told that Rickard Stark had Southron ambitions, no mention of any prophesy. 

[Jon Snow Nothing]

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I really think we've gone beyond all productive discussion now. 

I have laid out my thoughts on their relationship, I have discussed the various reasons for these thoughts and used quotes, historical similarities, literary traditions and examples of mythology and folk tale, as well as discussing the author and his thoughts on the topic.

And all you come back with is that you don't think it was this way. You offer no viable alternative and no in text evidence to support your ideas. Aerys being mad is not enough to pin an entire theory on. you would need some quotes to show evidence that he had a specific vendetta against the Starks before the events of KL and Brandon. You would need evidence that he did discover who TKOTLT was and that he wished to punish Lyanna for her actions specifically. 

You are reasoning about these characters as if they were real life living people and not characters in a book, whose actions serve the narrative.  Yes GRRM does flesh his characters out and make them far more believable than many authors have done. But he also uses traditional story telling techniques and knows and understands themes and motifs for setting a certain type of tale up.

There is no way that you can convince me without evidence to back it up that Aerys was after Lyanna. You can't deny they loved each other. Because it is right there in the evidence, Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna, and Ned not thinking bad thoughts about Rhaegar.  So you construct a scenario in which they have reason to run off together and then fall in love. Because you won't accept love is or can be anything outside of your own strict parameters. Which ignores hundreds of years of story telling history. 

I accepted your thoughts, but you have to admit that is very unlikely that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a relationship before the "event".

Let's use common sense: girl is given blue roses in the form of a crown by the Prince, who is married but is also a Targaryen. I don't need to explain how Targaryens used to think about marriage. And that at this time they are still marrying sister to brother. I doubt the Faith of the Seven approves this.

Said girl is from the North and is betrothed to the cousin of said Prince, Robert Baratheon. All the Stark children, all male except Lyanna, are there and Ned said that "all smiles dies" when the girl received the crown.

What would you do about this? Get the girl and run to the North as soon as possible. Also, remember it would not be easy for Rhaegar to go with his identity concealed, to the North. And we don't know when the year of the false Spring have finished.

Around nine months later, the Prince has a son with his wife, and calls him TPTWP - and notice that I am not quoting Dany's vision here because it is not reliable, as all the visions she had, but Maester Aemon's words.

So when the baby is three months old the Prince decides to run away with the girl because they are deeply in love with each other? Forgive me, but to me, this theory is even more incorrect than the one that says he kidnapped her only to have a third child.

You can not use other people's "story telling" to analyse GRRM narrative.

So there, you believe she was in love with him and ready to throw her life away, and dumb enough to plan a very complicated elopement, and I believe she was rescued at the last minute by him, and then they had to run away, and lately they fell in love with each other. I admit there are signs that they might be attracted to each other. But that is all. So, unless book 6 presents Lyanna near Dragonstone - and it makes no sense since she was coming from Winterfell to Riverrun, unless there is textual proof that she could have had a real relationship with Rhaegar, and means to plan an elopement, I still prefer to believe in the "rescue" theory. I think I have the right to have an opinion and offer my thoughts on this forum.