The Tower of Joy Discussion

[Clegane'sPup]

Probably not an original thought but, Lyanna wouldn’t have been riding around Harrenhal by herself, would she?

What say Benjen & Reed were with her.  They tell Brandon what happened. Brandon tells Benjen to head for home to tell papa. Reed goes back to his swamp.

After Eddard returns to WF with Jon Benjen takes the Black. Benjen did try to kinda talk Jon out of joining of the Watch. Shortly after Ben & Jon get to the Wall Ben is sent ranging and disappears.

Martin had Benjen disappear because Benjen knows the truth about Jon?

Something that bothers me a bit is Reed ending up with Eddard at TOJ. Did he ride with Eddard during the whole campaign?

In CoK c.21 eight year old Bran describes the Reed kids as slight of build, slender as swords and scarcely taller than Bran himself. Bran also says Meera is near Robb’s age.

C.28 She [Meera] was older than Arya, though; almost sixteen, a woman grown. They were both older than Bran, even though his ninth name day had finally come and gone <snip>.

C.55 "Robb was sixteen a few days past... a man grown, and a king. In SoS c. 9 Bran says Meera Reed was sixteen, a woman grown, but she stood no higher than her brother. All the crannogmen were small, she told Bran once when he asked why she wasn't taller.

I am wondering how Reed ended up at the TOJ with Eddard. Did he ride with Eddard the whole campaign?  Seems to me if he did, he was one lucky little crannogman.

The age thing with Robb & Meera does make me question when Howland joined Eddard.They were after all all together in one place before the shite hit the fan. Harrenhal.

 

[Jon Snow Nothing]

7 hours ago, RedPriest said:

I think I should point out, that in terms of ASolaF itself, there really isn't any direct evidence of the romantic picture you're painting. It's basically just the QoLaB, and their mutual disappearance, which lead people to their own conclusions

I agree. We have very few reliable facts to base our opinions on. So it's normal to have different theories, different way of thinking. People who loves to hate Rhaegar thinks he only thought about prophecies and kidnapped or eloped with Lyanna to have a third child. I disagree because I tend to view the whole story as one. Romantic people would obviously believe in love at first sight, and we have to consider that Lyanna being KoLT is also another theory, it's not canon.

So all we have are these two facts: Rhaegar won the Tourney (love some might say, but I bet they let him win) and crowned Lyanna instead of Elia. Maybe he just had a fight with Elia? Maybe they were not even talking to each other at this moment? Maybe he thinks that the girl is really the most beautiful woman there and he must be sincere? We don't know...

And we have the fact that Rhaegar took Lyanna at swordpoint. That is all. We don't even can be sure the two KG were there at that moment. We can be sure that people thought she was taken by force, and that Rhaegar, because he crowned her as QoLaB, fancied her. Robert thinks he raped her over and over. What really happened, I hope one day will be written by the author.

[Jon Snow Nothing]

11 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Probably not an original thought but, Lyanna wouldn’t have been riding around Harrenhal by herself, would she?

What say Benjen & Reed were with her.  They tell Brandon what happened. Brandon tells Benjen to head for home to tell papa. Reed goes back to his swamp.

After Eddard returns to WF with Jon Benjen takes the Black. Benjen did try to kinda talk Jon out of joining of the Watch. Shortly after Ben & Jon get to the Wall Ben is sent ranging and disappears.

Martin had Benjen disappear because Benjen knows the truth about Jon?

Something that bothers me a bit is Reed ending up with Eddard at TOJ. Did he ride with Eddard during the whole campaign?

In CoK c.21 eight year old Bran describes the Reed kids as slight of build, slender as swords and scarcely taller than Bran himself. Bran also says Meera is near Robb’s age.

C.28 She [Meera] was older than Arya, though; almost sixteen, a woman grown. They were both older than Bran, even though his ninth name day had finally come and gone <snip>.

C.55 "Robb was sixteen a few days past... a man grown, and a king. In SoS c. 9 Bran says Meera Reed was sixteen, a woman grown, but she stood no higher than her brother. All the crannogmen were small, she told Bran once when he asked why she wasn't taller.

I am wondering how Reed ended up at the TOJ with Eddard. Did he ride with Eddard the whole campaign?  Seems to me if he did, he was one lucky little crannogman.

The age thing with Robb & Meera does make me question when Howland joined Eddard.They were after all all together in one place before the shite hit the fan. Harrenhal.

 

or maybe it was Reed who found out where Lyanna was and asked to go with Ned?

You mean that shortly after the tourney Reed got married and had Meera? I think Meera is slightly older than Jon, she might be only a bit younger than Aegon.

I think Benjen knows about Jon, yes, and that is why he disappeared. But, at the same time, Stark family has been reduced to Ned, Benjen and baby Robb. So very unlikely that he joined the Watch at such a young age. I bet Benjen might have taken the black after Brandon was born.

[Jon Snow Nothing]

3 hours ago, teej6 said:

You really should read the books more thoroughly. There are several hints and observations from characters (other than Robert Baratheon) that indicate Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love. Barriston thinks that Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it. Then there's Dany's vision of Rhaegar dying with a woman's name on his lips. Any guesses who's name that could be.

I read the book four times but a long time ago. I never said Rhaegar did not love Lyanna. Barristan saw him, and surely talked to him before he went to the battle of the Trident, so he might have noticed something and add one plus one= Rhaegar took Lyanna, and he is happy, therefore he loves her. Dany's vision are not reliable, but I believe it shows us that at that moment, she was the love of his life. Tower of Joy, remember?

All I am saying is that it does not make sense for two people who barely know each other to run away and in front of everybody.

[Clegane'sPup]

7 minutes ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

You mean that shortly after the tourney Reed got married and had Meera? I think Meera is slightly older than Jon, she might be only a bit younger than Aegon.

I mentioned nothing about Jon or Aegon's age.The age comparison was between Robb & Meera.  My basic question was did Reed ride with Eddard the whole campaign.

[Jon Snow Nothing]

1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I mentioned nothing about Jon or Aegon's age.The age comparison was between Robb & Meera.  My basic question was did Reed ride with Eddard the whole campaign.

Sorry, but what something has to do with their ages? Ned left Catelyn shortly after they got married.

So I was asking if maybe the fact that Reed was at the ToJ was because he was the one who discovered it? Reed people has some magic in them.

And no, I doubt Reed had rode with Ned the whole campaign, if you mean the whole Rebellion. I agree that he is described as someone who would not last in a battle, but at the same time, might be a good person to be with when you need to find other people.

[Jon Snow Nothing]

On 01/08/2016 at 8:17 PM, RedPriest said:

The kidnapping/diversion of Lyanna and Rhaegar, seems to have been a bit convenient. I mean, the rebellion would  probably haven't happened, and even if it did, Rhaegar who was loved by the smallfolk, and the lords might well have been crowned king, as opposed to the Targaryens being driven out of Westeros. The event dishonoured Rhaegar, and started the rebellion. Two birds with one stone, for any enemy of the Targaryens 

The event even might have destroyed the "Southron ambition" of those Lords, if you believe in the theory. I like it a lot and I think it makes a lot of sense. Therefore, I think the Aerys factor was the one that destroyed everything. And Aerys was influenced by Varys. On the other hand, it was this eunuch who told the King to not open the gates to the Lannisters. Varys is a mystery greater than the ToJ, imo.

 

On 06/08/2016 at 3:07 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Agree to disagree. And move on. Else kick back, drink a couple of margaritas and laugh. There have been at least 6000 posts like that.

 

Don't tell me what to do, please, otherwise I will do the same. I have the right to defend my theory as long as someone does not reply in a respectful way. I don't drink, thank you. I will write 6666666 posts like that if I want to, and you are angry because no one of you have any good argument against the reason that Rhaegar and Lyanna could not fall in love and elope in such a way together. Move on, please, if you don't have anything better to write.

[Clegane'sPup]

37 minutes ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

So I was asking if maybe the fact that Reed was at the ToJ was because he was the one who discovered it? Reed people has some magic in them

Do we agree that after the tourney Brandon received word about Lyanna?

Is it possible that Benjen and/or Reed were with Lyanna and told Brandon what happened? That has been another question of mine. Brandon received word about Lyanna’s problem before he charged off to KL.

My problem is that all I really know is that Eddard went back to the Eyrrie after Harrenhal. Brandon was somewhere and took off to KL when he heard about Lyanna. The Kings sends word to Arryn for Eddard & Robert’s head after he kills Brandon, his father & their companions. Rebellion breaks out.

Eddard then has to work his way back to WF to call his banners. When did Reed join him?

It seems to me that your suggestion is that Reed had magical/mystical knowledge of Lyanna’s location. It is entirely possible.

Benjen goes to the Wall after Eddard returns from war. Benjen goes missing after Jon arrives at the Wall.  Could both Reed & Benjen know Lyanna’s story?

I sooooooooooooo want the WoW.

[Clegane'sPup]

25 minutes ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Don't tell me what to do, please, otherwise I will do the same. I have the right to defend my theory as long as someone does not reply in a respectful way. I don't drink, thank you. I will write 6666666 posts like that if I want to, and you are angry because no one of you have any good argument against the reason that Rhaegar and Lyanna could not fall in love and elope in such a way together. Move on, please, if you don't have anything better to write.

Edited 20 minutes ago by Jon Snow Nothing

[RedPriest]

17 hours ago, teej6 said:

You really should read the books more thoroughly. There are several hints and observations from characters (other than Robert Baratheon) that indicate Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love. Barriston thinks that Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it. Then there's Dany's vision of Rhaegar dying with a woman's name on his lips. Any guesses who's name that could be.

Could I just point out, that none of these people had any more 'evidence' than i had already pointed out, and they weren't directly involved with the matter-they don't know any more about it than you and i do. As I said, this whole 'falling in love at first sight' thing relies nearly entirely on assumptions, not facts.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think it's important not to get caught up in over analysing what characters may do/think if they were real people and remember the author is telling a story. We can use many different things to assess what the story between R&L was, because we are readers with experience and all the knowledge of thousands of years of story telling at our disposal. 

Therefore, when we have a writer who speaks openly about where his influences come from, his interests in writing the story and what styles of writing he admires. I think it is very pertinent to take all that into account when analysing the text. You use all that in conjunction with what is written in the books. 

So we have a writer who is a romantic, and who appreciates traditional story telling motifs. Who is influenced by real life history, by mythology, by folklore, and who has a great love of writing about human emotions. And we have a series of books where he uses many methods to weave clues about the story into other elements of it.

We can therefore read into other elements of the tale to get answers about those parts which are barely revealed.  Such as R&L. We have the bare facts that she cried at his song and taht he crowned her QoL&B. But we also have the romantic motif of the shield in the tree and yes I can site this as relevant because whether or not he actually did spy her getting changed is not the relevant aspect, the author chose to use that motif when writing about Rhaegar's search for TKoTLT and he chose to use that motif again in the story of Florian & jonquil, and the village of Maidenpool.  A romantic tale complete with song which runs throughout the entire series of books and novellas. Yet which we are never quite told the details of. Though Sansa is a big fan and we find aspects of Lyanna in both Arya & Sansa Stark. So we can suppose based on these things that this shield may indeed be a hint towards a romantic story for these two players. 

Another in book story which lends hints towards R&L is Bael the bard, and the Blue Winter Rose. Bael took the daughter of Lord Stark(Or the KiTN) and left in her place a Blue Winter Rose, later she emerges from the Crypts with a infant son. Now how do we suppose Bael was able to take her? Wouldn't she have screamed? Called out? Shouldn't she have been kicking and screaming the entire time that he was dragging her off to the crypts? Or maybe she went willingly? He'd been at her fathers castle singing and playing his songs for some time, it's quite plausible that she went with him willingly, out of love. So here we have another potential clue, a singer who disappears with a Stark Maiden, and when she is returned he has given her a son. At first the story reads like abduction, but that idea just doesn't add up? Surely she knew the Crypts well enough, must have played there all her life just as our Stark children recall, how come she never escaped? How come she never screamed as he took her? Alerting the castle to her plight. 

A third useful story within the story is Jorah & Lynesse, whom he fell in love with at a Tourney, and was driven to great feats, beating all who stood against him to win the Tourney, name her QoL&B and ask for her hand, right there and then. 

Then we have the way Eddard remembers Rhaegar, without bitterness or anger or ill feeling at all. 

Barristan is a good reliable witness, he was present at the Tourney, he spoke with Prince Rhaegar on his return from the ToJ and rode with him to the Trident. Barristan had known the Prince his whole life having been made a KG at the time of the boys birth.  He would have watched him grow up and would know the man very well indeed. If Barristan says He loved her, Rhaegar loved her. Barristan also uses a possessive term when talking of that love "Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it."  

All the smiles died, when Rhaegar gave her the crown, meaning that people knew, they either knew the title of QoL&B was signifying of the victors general opinion of the Lady he has chosen's beauty. And so to chose a woman other than your wife is deeply rude. And the smiles died because everyone was embarrassed for Elia.  Or everybody knew Rhaegar genuinely desired Lyanna. Usually when two people are attracted to one another it becomes very obvious to those around them. There is a chance this is what is meant, because the reactions from her brothers and Robert hint that there had already been some tension going on. Brandon of course being the hot head is more worked up than Ned & Benjen. But if there was nothing in the air other than a sense of impropriety at her being named over his wife, I doubt the brothers would be so enraged. A threat was made to their sisters honour it seems. And Robert is described as brushing it off, and laughing over it, he's quick to save face and be non confrontational with the Prince over this potential play for his betrothed.  But we also have to bear in mind that the World book is written directly for Robert and everything in it must be viewed with that bias in mind. This may not have been Roberts true reaction. 

Daenarys also holds clues in both her HoTU vision of Rhaegar dying with Lyanna's name upon his lips (confirmed, yes it was Lyanna he said) and in her thoughts as she travels to marry Hizdhar. As she is going to be married to a man who she does not want, she fantasises about Daario coming for her through the crowd. Daario whom she does want coming to rescue her from the marriage she does not want. She thinks that if he (Daario) truly loves her he would come and carry her off at swordpoint as Rhaegar carried off his Northern Girl. This speaks of the Targaryen version of their affair. The version Rhaegar gave his mother & brother, his old master at arms Darry. upon his return to KL; perhaps. The version Dany grew up hearing. That he carried her off at Swordpoint out of love. And Dany is Lyanna in this scene wanting her lover to appear and rescue her from the unwanted marriage. 

There is plenty in the text which tells us if we care to listen, what happened between the two.  I won't go over it all again but there is plenty too which hints at a secret marriage too. 

And using other texts to support the theory is acceptable as a rule. So long as those stories do indeed parallel with the story. So using R&J to support R&L is fine.  Juliet too was betrothed to a man whom she did not desire. And Romeo's heart before he saw Juliet was pledged to Rosaline. There are similarities and they are relevant, because the author has said he takes from other stories, particularly classic ones. As well as real history- hence my mention of Edward & Elizabeth. Other aspects of ASOIAF are also supported by other literature and history too. The Black Dinner in the Red Wedding. The use of Beauty & The Beast in both the stories of  Brienne & Jaime & Sansa & Sandor. The multiple similarities in Sansa & Sandor and Jane Eyre. The story of Greywind and Robb finding the Goat track which leads them round The Tooth is lifted from the Battle of Thermopylae. 

 

[purple-eyes]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think it's important not to get caught up in over analysing what characters may do/think if they were real people and remember the author is telling a story. We can use many different things to assess what the story between R&L was, because we are readers with experience and all the knowledge of thousands of years of story telling at our disposal. 

Therefore, when we have a writer who speaks openly about where his influences come from, his interests in writing the story and what styles of writing he admires. I think it is very pertinent to take all that into account when analysing the text. You use all that in conjunction with what is written in the books. 

So we have a writer who is a romantic, and who appreciates traditional story telling motifs. Who is influenced by real life history, by mythology, by folklore, and who has a great love of writing about human emotions. And we have a series of books where he uses many methods to weave clues about the story into other elements of it.

We can therefore read into other elements of the tale to get answers about those parts which are barely revealed.  Such as R&L. We have the bare facts that she cried at his song and taht he crowned her QoL&B. But we also have the romantic motif of the shield in the tree and yes I can site this as relevant because whether or not he actually did spy her getting changed is not the relevant aspect, the author chose to use that motif when writing about Rhaegar's search for TKoTLT and he chose to use that motif again in the story of Florian & jonquil, and the village of Maidenpool.  A romantic tale complete with song which runs throughout the entire series of books and novellas. Yet which we are never quite told the details of. Though Sansa is a big fan and we find aspects of Lyanna in both Arya & Sansa Stark. So we can suppose based on these things that this shield may indeed be a hint towards a romantic story for these two players. 

Another in book story which lends hints towards R&L is Bael the bard, and the Blue Winter Rose. Bael took the daughter of Lord Stark(Or the KiTN) and left in her place a Blue Winter Rose, later she emerges from the Crypts with a infant son. Now how do we suppose Bael was able to take her? Wouldn't she have screamed? Called out? Shouldn't she have been kicking and screaming the entire time that he was dragging her off to the crypts? Or maybe she went willingly? He'd been at her fathers castle singing and playing his songs for some time, it's quite plausible that she went with him willingly, out of love. So here we have another potential clue, a singer who disappears with a Stark Maiden, and when she is returned he has given her a son. At first the story reads like abduction, but that idea just doesn't add up? Surely she knew the Crypts well enough, must have played there all her life just as our Stark children recall, how come she never escaped? How come she never screamed as he took her? Alerting the castle to her plight. 

A third useful story within the story is Jorah & Lynesse, whom he fell in love with at a Tourney, and was driven to great feats, beating all who stood against him to win the Tourney, name her QoL&B and ask for her hand, right there and then. 

Then we have the way Eddard remembers Rhaegar, without bitterness or anger or ill feeling at all. 

Barristan is a good reliable witness, he was present at the Tourney, he spoke with Prince Rhaegar on his return from the ToJ and rode with him to the Trident. Barristan had known the Prince his whole life having been made a KG at the time of the boys birth.  He would have watched him grow up and would know the man very well indeed. If Barristan says He loved her, Rhaegar loved her. Barristan also uses a possessive term when talking of that love "Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it."  

All the smiles died, when Rhaegar gave her the crown, meaning that people knew, they either knew the title of QoL&B was signifying of the victors general opinion of the Lady he has chosen's beauty. And so to chose a woman other than your wife is deeply rude. And the smiles died because everyone was embarrassed for Elia.  Or everybody knew Rhaegar genuinely desired Lyanna. Usually when two people are attracted to one another it becomes very obvious to those around them. There is a chance this is what is meant, because the reactions from her brothers and Robert hint that there had already been some tension going on. Brandon of course being the hot head is more worked up than Ned & Benjen. But if there was nothing in the air other than a sense of impropriety at her being named over his wife, I doubt the brothers would be so enraged. A threat was made to their sisters honour it seems. And Robert is described as brushing it off, and laughing over it, he's quick to save face and be non confrontational with the Prince over this potential play for his betrothed.  But we also have to bear in mind that the World book is written directly for Robert and everything in it must be viewed with that bias in mind. This may not have been Roberts true reaction. 

Daenarys also holds clues in both her HoTU vision of Rhaegar dying with Lyanna's name upon his lips (confirmed, yes it was Lyanna he said) and in her thoughts as she travels to marry Hizdhar. As she is going to be married to a man who she does not want, she fantasises about Daario coming for her through the crowd. Daario whom she does want coming to rescue her from the marriage she does not want. She thinks that if he (Daario) truly loves her he would come and carry her off at swordpoint as Rhaegar carried off his Northern Girl. This speaks of the Targaryen version of their affair. The version Rhaegar gave his mother & brother, his old master at arms Darry. upon his return to KL; perhaps. The version Dany grew up hearing. That he carried her off at Swordpoint out of love. And Dany is Lyanna in this scene wanting her lover to appear and rescue her from the unwanted marriage. 

There is plenty in the text which tells us if we care to listen, what happened between the two.  I won't go over it all again but there is plenty too which hints at a secret marriage too. 

And using other texts to support the theory is acceptable as a rule. So long as those stories do indeed parallel with the story. So using R&J to support R&L is fine.  Juliet too was betrothed to a man whom she did not desire. And Romeo's heart before he saw Juliet was pledged to Rosaline. There are similarities and they are relevant, because the author has said he takes from other stories, particularly classic ones. As well as real history- hence my mention of Edward & Elizabeth. Other aspects of ASOIAF are also supported by other literature and history too. The Black Dinner in the Red Wedding. The use of Beauty & The Beast in both the stories of  Brienne & Jaime & Sansa & Sandor. The multiple similarities in Sansa & Sandor and Jane Eyre. The story of Greywind and Robb finding the Goat track which leads them round The Tooth is lifted from the Battle of Thermopylae. 

 

it is great that you made so many assumptions and basicly made up a lot of things by yourself (such as there were already tensions between brandon and rhaegar because everybody already knew well rhaegar and lyanna are in deep love! love is hard to hide! ha, if this is the case, Robert and oberyn and brandon probably already dueled with Rhaegar right there and then, it is fun to imagine how rhaegar fight with these three angry men) , but you did not even bother to read and clarify the details of the tourney. 

i can even imagine how excited you are when you saw that hanging shield stuff. Oh, she hanged her shield there! like a fairy who hanged a skin! like a guy who stole the skin and hid it on the tree! so lyanna must take a shower in the god's eye lake after her intense working out! rhaegar saw her naked body and fell in sudden love and stole her shield! they may even have a hot and wild one night stand right there under the tree! it is by all means a royal and valid wedding! because old gods are witnessing (BR or Bran)! what, timing issue? that is not my concern! Lyanna can surely go out and take a morning shower in public lake and hang her famous shield there so that Aerys' men can easily find her and fall in love! 

However GRRM is better than you. he made it more reasonable to read and more realistic. In reality, there is not much chance for you to see a lady bathe nakedly in public. 

keep in mind, rhaegar and lyanna is "reality" in the book. florian and johquil is "fairy tale" which you described. 

fairy tale is of course beautiful and romantic and vague and even mysterious. but reality is usually darker and practical and less romantic. 

 

 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

5 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

it is great that you made so many assumptions and basicly made up a lot of things by yourself (such as there were already tensions between brandon and rhaegar because everybody already knew well rhaegar and lyanna are in deep love! love is hard to hide! ha, if this is the case, Robert and oberyn and brandon probably already dueled with Rhaegar right there and then, it is fun to imagine how rhaegar fight with these three angry men) , but you did not even bother to read and clarify the details of the tourney. 

i can even imagine how excited you are when you saw that hanging shield stuff. Oh, she hanged her shield there! like a fairy who hanged a skin! like a guy who stole the skin and hid it on the tree! so lyanna must take a shower in the god's eye lake after her intense working out! rhaegar saw her naked body and fell in sudden love and stole her shield! they may even have a hot and wild one night stand right there under the tree! it is by all means a royal and valid wedding! because old gods are witnessing (BR or Bran)! what, timing issue? that is not my concern! Lyanna can surely go out and take a morning shower in public lake and hang her famous shield there so that Aerys' men can easily find her and fall in love! 

However GRRM is better than you. he made it more reasonable to read and more realistic. In reality, there is not much chance for you to see a lady bathe nakedly in public. 

keep in mind, rhaegar and lyanna is "reality" in the book. florian and johquil is "fairy tale" which you described. 

fairy tale is of course beautiful and romantic and vague and even mysterious. but reality is usually darker and practical and less romantic. 

 

 

 

facetiousness does not hide your lack of literary analysis skills.

[RedPriest]

Could we in future point out what is wrong about the points another person has made, instead of just insulting them, and calling names. This applies to everyone.

[RedPriest]

An unknown amount of time later, Lyanna Stark was seemingly abducted by Prince Rhaegar Targaryen.

This came from awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robert%27s_Rebellion, and would seem to confirm that that the Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna theory is subject to change.