Which house is more powerful?: mandrely or Frey?

[Tarellen]

Both of these houses seem to be the most powerful of there respective regions that's not a great house. So which is more powerful and richer?

[James Steller]

Manderly. They have more men, a navy, a city, all thanks to their lucrative hold on the North's silver trade

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Just now, James Steller said:

Manderly. They have more men, a navy, a city, all thanks to their lucrative hold on the North's silver trade

It is yet to be proven that they have more men. So far in the series we have seen more than 4 Freys raised and 2k (or less) Manderlys raised.

Their Navy (which is co owned by the Umbers) has not done anything, it is unclear if it is even properly manned.

The city means they are wealthy, but then thanks to Cat Tully/Stark we know the Freys too are also wealthy.

 

It is unclear who is the most powerful. What is undeniable is that the Freys are the most powerful vassal in the Riverlands while the Manderlys are the richest house in the North.

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

The Twins are one of the strongest castles in westeros and most definitely superior to New Castle, I would also think they can raise more or at lest equal levies.

On the other hand house Manderly has to be more wealthy. Yes the Freys are said to be rich, but their tolls can´t possibly add up to a prosperous city and center of trade.

I would say overall they´re about equal.

[YOVMO]

3 hours ago, Tarellen said:

Both of these houses seem to be the most powerful of there respective regions that's not a great house. So which is more powerful and richer?

It think that depends on a lot of factors. I doubt that the manderly's could assault the twins and live to tell about it. But I think that if they met in the field it would be close. If they met in a way that a navy would be influential or if the Frey's foolishly decided to try to take white harbor it would be all manderly all the time.

 

It really depends on the battle

[Free Northman Reborn]

Honestly. This should not even be a debate.

The Manderlys far outclass the Freys in population, wealth and military power.

The wealth debate has been endlessly discussed, but as I have stated before, the Freys don't toll trade between the Riverlands and the West. They don't toll trade between the Riverlands and the Reach. Nor do they toll trade between the Riverlands and the Crownlands. And neither do they toll trade between the Rivelrands and the Vale. All of the above trade follows routes that don't pass through the Twins.

So the Twins only tax trade that takes place between the Riverlands and the North. So which percentage of the Riverland's external trade is with the North? Let's say 10%. But wait, not even all Riverland-North trade would pass through the Twins. Because such overland trade then has to pass through Moat Cailin. Instead, some seaborne trade would take place between Seagard and Barrowton, and significant trade would take place between White Harbor and Saltpans or Maidenpool, from where it would pass up the Trident to the interior. So of the 10% we guessed above, maybe only half would actually go through the Twins. So call it 5% of the total Riverlands trade.

Put differently, every bit of North-Riverland trade that passes through the Twins, would also have to pass through Moat Cailin. So we can estimate the volume of Northern trade that comes through the Twins by considering the traffic jam of bustling trade that goes through Moat Cailin (sarcasm on).

Compare that to the vast bulk of Northern trade with pretty much EVERYWHERE, that goes through White Harbor. There really is no comparison. Let's say 80% of the North's trade passes through White Harbor, while maybe 5% of the Riverlands total trade passes through the Twins.

There is a reason why a city of tens of thousands has developed at White Harbor, while the Twins are just a twin pair of castles with maybe a small town outside of it (I'm not even sure if a town was ever mentioned).

Furthermore, the Manderlys would have a much larger peasant population to support and feed their city, than the Freys would have supporting the Twins. Not to mention the downstream economic activity they control through the White Knife trade artery. They have riverboats conducting trade all the way up to the interior, we learn from the books.

Regarding military strength. From the evidence Roose Bolton seems very likely to exceed 1000 heavy cavalry - which matches the Frey heavy cavalry numbers. And Manderly - even after his losses - still exceeds that number. Note that he could exceed it by a very large margin, for all we know, but even if he exceeds it by only a small margin, this is after his losses, and puts him well above the Frey strength.

Houses Frey and Bolton seem to be on an equivalent level of military strength, and probably in population numbers. The Freys are likely wealthier than the Boltons, though.

But House Manderly far exceeds both of these Houses, in every respect.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

15 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Manderlys far outclass the Freys in population, wealth and military power.

 

By all means use some quotes from the books to prove that the Manderlys have

•  a larger poplation
• are wealthier
• have a larger military power.

Any evidence, not just your belief that the North is the bestestest in Westeros.

[Free Northman Reborn]

8 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

By all means use some quotes from the books to prove that the Manderlys have

•  a larger poplation
• are wealthier
• have a larger military power.

Any evidence, not just your belief that the North is the bestestest in Westeros.

Well, sadly, the vast majority of answers to questions we discuss here aren't provided by passages in the books saying: "The Manderlys rule more people than the Freys. Now on to the next lesson, student Tarly".

We need to use logic, deduction and context to get to most answers. And I'm afraid you are delusional if you try to portray the Frey domain as more populous than that of the Manderlys. Do they even have a decent sized town - of Barrowton level - in their domain?

Heck, but I forgot, you still dispute that the Manderlys have more men than the Boltons too. So you do represent an extreme end of the spectrum. As evidenced by your snide comments about the Starks being the favorite House of the fandom. As if that is something to decry for some reason.

You need to start looking at the series from a neutral perspective. Something which I, as an admitted Stark and Northern supporter, ironically come far closer to doing that you do in your anti-Northern bias.

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

6 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

By all means use some quotes from the books to prove that the Manderlys have

•  a larger poplation
• are wealthier
• have a larger military power.

Any evidence, not just your belief that the North is the bestestest in Westeros.

Well it should be common sense that white harbor generates more income than the twins. The other points I think are debatable.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well, sadly, the vast majority of answers to questions we discuss here aren't provided by passages in the books saying: "The Manderlys rule more people than the Freys. Now on to the next lesson, student Tarly".

We need to use logic, deduction and context to get to most answers. And I'm afraid you are delusional if you try to portray the Frey domain as more populous than that of the Manderlys. Do they even have a decent sized town - of Barrowton level - in their domain?

Heck, but I forgot, you still dispute that the Manderlys have more men than the Boltons too. So you do represent an extreme end of the spectrum. As evidenced by your snide comments about the Starks being the favorite House of the fandom. As if that is something to decry.

You need to start looking at the series from a neutral perspective. Something which I, as an admitted Stark and Northern supporter, ironically come far closer to doing that you do in your anti-Northern bias.

How was it snide? It is fact, and there is nothing wrong with that. The story begins with them, Ned being, after Davos, the most decent POV character we have in the series and his children innocents in a shitty world. Of course they are the favorite House and I do not have a problem with that. I have no idea why you and other Stark fans get so sensitive about the subject.

 

As for the Freys vs the Manderlys, the evidence from 5 books (plus sample chapters of the 6th) make the Freys seem like the more powerful military force. Both Houses are described as wealthy (though I imagine it takes less riches to be considered wealthy in the North than it does the South).

We know categorically (from Cat Tully) that the Freys are the most powerful vassal House in the Riverlands, we don't know if that is true of the Manderlys in the North (though they are certainly the wealthiest and have the most heavy horse) as a case can be made for either the Boltons or Manderlys.

Your assertion that this is a topic that is not even worthy of debate speaks far more of bias than anything I have actually said (which was that it is yet to be proven).

 

Of course I say it is unclear and you say it is not even worth a discussion and I am the one accused of being biased. lol!

 

7 minutes ago, Ser Tristan Flowers said:

Well it should be common sense that white harbor generates more income than the twins. The other points I think are debatable.

If the Freys only ruled a bridge then that would be a point. The Freys lands are pretty huge, they go encompass both the blue and green forks of the Trident. On the way back to the Twins, around two maybe three weeks away, Robb's army is still passing by Frey villages. Their lands are huge in the second most fertile region and one of the three (likely the second) most densely populated realms. GRRM mentions their wealth in their description in the appendix and Cat categorically mentions they are her fathers most powerful vassals.

Manderlys ruling a city means they are wealthy, it does not mean they are wealthier than all non-other city ruling Houses.

[Canon Claude]

2 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

Manderlys ruling a city means they are wealthy, it does not mean they are wealthier than all non-other city ruling Houses.

Manderlys don't just rule a city, they rule the lands around it, and all the trade that passes through that city. Wyman even mentions how far his influence goes, and it extends into other Lords' lands such as the Flints and Woolfields.

It's safe to say that the Manderlys would win against the Freys, on nearly every front.

[Minstral]

2 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Manderlys ruling a city means they are wealthy, it does not mean they are wealthier than all non-other city ruling Houses.

Manderly's own assets which are directly his:

"I have been building warships for more than a year. Some you saw, but there are as many more hidden up the White Knife. Even with the losses I have suffered, I still command more heavy horse than any other lord north of the Neck. My walls are strong, and my vaults are full of silver. Oldcastle and Widow’s Watch will take their lead from me. My bannermen include a dozen petty lords and a hundred landed knights. I can deliver King Stannis the allegiance of all the lands east of the White Knife, from Widow’s Watch and Ramsgate to the Sheepshead Hills and the headwaters of the Broken Branch."

They don't simply own a city, but a great chunk of choice land. In terms of manpower the assumption can be made that it is either comparable to the 4k of the Freys, but it is certainly not some strange and unreasonable stretch to suggest that the Manderlys can raise more men. By having one of the five cities of Westeros, and that Manderly controls the surrounding lands, then Wyman controls the city and its hinterland. Something that the Freys cannot claim.

Anyway, to the more powerful? Militarily? I think the Manderlys but there are some unknowns, so call it a toss up for now. Politically? Obviously the Manderlys. They are/were not treated as political pariahs by their overlords. Furthermore, they sit along the trade routes that go right down to KL, which means that they are more readily represented to the throne (pre-series) than the Freys ever could hope for. Economically? Again, Manderlys.  I guess that those that use the bridge at the Twins take their harvest down to Fairmarket, and thus it would be these merchants and travelers that are normally taxed (you likely also get some Vale traders there as well). Northern tradesmen seem nonexistent to me alon this route, considering the difficulty of traversing the bogs of the Neck. WH sits along along the trade routes that connect itself to Braavos, the Vale, KL, and beyond. It simply is a more important trading destination than the Twins could ever hope to be.

[Anton Martell]

 

6 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Their Navy (which is co owned by the Umbers) has not done anything, it is unclear if it is even properly manned.

 

when is it stated that the Umbers own half of it? Especially if the Umber are one of the farthest northern houses from the Manderlys?

 

As for the debate, I'd say the Manderlys are the wealthiest. And wealth often buy military power (horses, navy...). As for the number of men, it is not stated, but I always seemed to believe that the 4K of the Freys were not that much (that's the impression I got from Cat's reaction). But I might be wrong about that. 

 

Now, the Freys are definitly a very strong House, especially now during the events of ASOIAF. but the land they controlis huge since the North is bigger and they have basically all of the south-east of the North (and Widow's watch and Ramsgate are pretty far from White Harbor). The Frey are blocked at the west by the Mallister so they can only "control" what goes along the Kingsroad in the south east. It's still great land, but it's smaller I believe.

[Minstral]

6 minutes ago, Anton Martell said:

when is it stated that the Umbers own half of it? Especially if the Umber are one of the farthest northern houses from the Manderlys?

It isn't. The way the ships were built were with the help of the Umber's, but absolutely nowhere in the book does it say that the Umbers command or own half the ships. This is an assumption on thelittledragonthatcould's part.

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

13 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

If the Freys only ruled a bridge then that would be a point. The Freys lands are pretty huge, they go encompass both the blue and green forks of the Trident. On the way back to the Twins, around two maybe three weeks away, Robb's army is still passing by Frey villages. Their lands are huge in the second most fertile region and one of the three (likely the second) most densely populated realms. GRRM mentions their wealth in their description in the appendix and Cat categorically mentions they are her fathers most powerful vassals.

Manderlys ruling a city means they are wealthy, it does not mean they are wealthier than all non-other city ruling Houses.

They don´t rule that land, their vassals do, wich is not the same. Liege levy as well as taxes largely depend on the loyalty of the subject and I don´t see why the Frey´s vassals should be any more loyal than any other. Most of their income would come from their direct holdings at or close to the twins, wich again is not to be frowned upon, but they have nothing even remotely close to white harbor. 

The assumption that they are wealthier than the Manderlys is simply unreasonable.

[Free Northman Reborn]

34 minutes ago, Ser Tristan Flowers said:

They don´t rule that land, their vassals do, wich is not the same. Liege levy as well as taxes largely depend on the loyalty of the subject and I don´t see why the Frey´s vassals should be any more loyal than any other. Most of their income would come from their direct holdings at or close to the twins, wich again is not to be frowned upon, but they have nothing even remotely close to white harbor. 

The assumption that they are wealthier than the Manderlys is simply unreasonable.

OK. While I think there is no doubt that the Manderlys are multiple times as rich as the Freys, I don't agree with the above statement exactly. I think it is very relevant how far the lands of a Lords' vassals extends. It would have an implication for the total levies he collects, his total population and total military potential.

That said, I think the Manderlys vassals easily match and exceed the magnitude of the Freys 3 known vassals. The Manderlys have a dozen lords sworn to them as opposed to the Freys' 3 we know of to date. This quite apart from the Manderlys direct holdings, which dwarf that of the Freys, being White Harbor and its surroundings versus the Twins and their surroundings.

EDIT

And actually, I have just checked the wiki, which states that one of the three noble Houses known to be sworn to House Frey, namely House Haigh, is presumably a Landed Knight and not a Lord. Which merely makes them equivalent to one of the hundred Landed Knights sworn to House Manderly.

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

19 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

OK. While I think there is no doubt that the Manderlys are multiple times as rich as the Freys, I don't agree with the above statement exactly. I think it is very relevant how far the lands of a Lords' vassals extends. It would have an implication for the total levies he collects, his total population and total military potential.

That said, I think the Manderlys vassals easily match and exceed the magnitude of the Freys 3 known vassals. The Manderlys have a dozen lords sworn to them as opposed to the Freys' 3 we know of to date. This quite apart from the Manderlys direct holdings, which dwarf that of the Freys, being White Harbor and its surroundings versus the Twins and their surroundings.

EDIT

And actually, I have just checked the wiki, which states that one of the three noble Houses known to be sworn to House Frey, namely House Haigh, is presumably a Landed Knight and not a Lord. Which merely makes them equivalent to one of the hundred Landed Knights sworn to House Manderly.

I didn´t say it´s not relevant, just that there´s a difference from holding land personally to having a bannerman hold it, especially in terms of income. The post I was referring to stated that the Frey lands extend way beyond the Twins, wich is true, but the Freys don´t get 100% of the revenue generated by that land, just like the Manderlys don´t. But where the Manderlys have a major city in their domain, the Freys have a toll booth, wich can´t possibly add up.

[Lord Vance II]

Since this thread seems pretty testy...I'm just going to first say that I love the Manderly's and Wyman Manderly. In the midst of the turmoil in the North, Wyman has taken up the mantle of responsibility among his peers in leading the counter-insurgency against the Bolton/Frey alliance. The fat man will sing soon. 

But as far as power, they're probably close, but I'd give the nod to Manderly due to White Harbor and the wealth that comes with it. Even if the Freys have as many troops, I don't think it's a stretch to say the Mermen would be better equipped. 

As far as a standing military goes, they're probably about even during peace time (on land) but if Wyman was pulling out all the stops he could leavy many more small folk, and equip them better, than Frey. 

I may be mistaken, but have we actually seen the Frey troops fight in major action? I don't remember where they were during Robb's campaign, but after that all they seem to have done is slaughter Northmen at the Red Wedding. We haven't seen Manderly in action either, to be fair. 

I'd give Wyman the edge over Walder in leadership as well, but not by much. Walder is a jackass, but isn't stupid. 

 

[Lion of the West]

In my mind there's no doubts its the Manderlys, at least under "normal" circumstances. Sure the Freys hold an important crossing, but the Manderlys controls a major city and the North's port, and seems to have silver mines in addition to that as I recall it.

[Baelor Butthole]

The importance of the Twins is undoubtedly greater during wartime than during peacetime based on the Frey's ability to control, expedite, and/or cutoff troop movement through the Riverlands. The location of the Twins and influence of the Frey's does not seem to have as much bearing on the region during peace; look at how Hoster Tully largely ignored and snubbed Walder for years.  

As the lords of the only major city in the north, the Manderly's control the largest population and are undoubtedly the richest in their region. How long did it take them to build and man a significant war fleet? The Manderly's seem to be the more powerful while the Frey's location are more significant for military strategy.