Which house is more powerful?: mandrely or Frey?

[TheSTARKempire]

18 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well, sadly, the vast majority of answers to questions we discuss here aren't provided by passages in the books saying: "The Manderlys rule more people than the Freys. Now on to the next lesson, student Tarly".

We need to use logic, deduction and context to get to most answers. And I'm afraid you are delusional if you try to portray the Frey domain as more populous than that of the Manderlys. Do they even have a decent sized town - of Barrowton level - in their domain?

Heck, but I forgot, you still dispute that the Manderlys have more men than the Boltons too. So you do represent an extreme end of the spectrum. As evidenced by your snide comments about the Starks being the favorite House of the fandom. As if that is something to decry for some reason.

You need to start looking at the series from a neutral perspective. Something which I, as an admitted Stark and Northern supporter, ironically come far closer to doing that you do in your anti-Northern bias.

Can I give you many many likes? I have been so irritated by that person's extreme bias and hatred against the North. Your reply is just pure gold.

If one claims that the freys are more powerful than the Manderlys, I can't help but wonder whether he is reading a different book. This should not even be a debate. I say this not because us northern fans are biased. We would never say manderly is more powerful than hightower. it goes against common sense and makes us look stupid.  

[Anton Martell]

4 hours ago, Ser Tristan Flowers said:

I didn´t say it´s not relevant, just that there´s a difference from holding land personally to having a bannerman hold it, especially in terms of income. The post I was referring to stated that the Frey lands extend way beyond the Twins, wich is true, but the Freys don´t get 100% of the revenue generated by that land, just like the Manderlys don´t. But where the Manderlys have a major city in their domain, the Freys have a toll booth, wich can´t possibly add up.

I might add, as I said earlier: and they are in competition with the Mallister in the West, and the Vale in the East, so that land cannot be that huge, wether it's controlled by them or by their vassals

[Nittanian]

4 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

I may be mistaken, but have we actually seen the Frey troops fight in major action? I don't remember where they were during Robb's campaign, but after that all they seem to have done is slaughter Northmen at the Red Wedding. We haven't seen Manderly in action either, to be fair.

Tyrion sees Frey banners at the Green Fork, and Stevron leads the Freys with Robb in the Whispering Wood and at Riverrun. Stevron dies after Oxcross, so the Freys with Robb in the westerlands are then led by Ryman and Black Walder. Aenys commands the contingent with Roose at Harrenhal. Walder Rivers commands the outriders at Riverrun while Robb is in the west.

Wylis is one of Robb's companions at the Whispering Wood. He is captured at the Green Fork, freed by Arya/Robett/Vargo/Roose at Harrenhal, recaptured at the Trident while Roose marches north, and then freed by Jaime at Harrenhal. Wendel accompanies Catelyn to Bitterbridge and Storm's End, and is killed in the Red Wedding. Wyman is said to send a dozen barges to aid Rodrik Cassel at Winterfell against Theon, who sees Manderly knights in the winter town. This contingent is then betrayed by Ramsay and the Dreadfort men.

[Free Northman Reborn]

6 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

Tyrion sees Frey banners at the Green Fork, and Stevron leads the Freys with Robb in the Whispering Wood and at Riverrun. Stevron dies after Oxcross, so the Freys with Robb in the westerlands are then led by Ryman and Black Walder. Aenys commands the contingent with Roose at Harrenhal. Walder Rivers commands the outriders at Riverrun while Robb is in the west.

Wylis is one of Robb's companions at the Whispering Wood. He is captured at the Green Fork, freed by Arya/Robett/Vargo/Roose at Harrenhal, recaptured at the Trident while Roose marches north, and then freed by Jaime at Harrenhal. Wendel accompanies Catelyn to Bitterbridge and Storm's End, and is killed in the Red Wedding. Wyman is said to send a dozen barges to aid Rodrik Cassel at Winterfell against Theon, who sees Manderly knights in the winter town. This contingent is then betrayed by Ramsay and the Dreadfort men.

Yes. There is no reason to doubt the ability of the Frey troops compared to other Houses. They are your typical Westerosi knights, infantry and archers.

[Lord Vance II]

29 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

Tyrion sees Frey banners at the Green Fork, and Stevron leads the Freys with Robb in the Whispering Wood and at Riverrun. Stevron dies after Oxcross, so the Freys with Robb in the westerlands are then led by Ryman and Black Walder. Aenys commands the contingent with Roose at Harrenhal. Walder Rivers commands the outriders at Riverrun while Robb is in the west.

Wylis is one of Robb's companions at the Whispering Wood. He is captured at the Green Fork, freed by Arya/Robett/Vargo/Roose at Harrenhal, recaptured at the Trident while Roose marches north, and then freed by Jaime at Harrenhal. Wendel accompanies Catelyn to Bitterbridge and Storm's End, and is killed in the Red Wedding. Wyman is said to send a dozen barges to aid Rodrik Cassel at Winterfell against Theon, who sees Manderly knights in the winter town. This contingent is then betrayed by Ramsay and the Dreadfort men.

Fair enough. Out of curiosity, do you remember all this or look it up (pretty much an open question) or is there some quick search I'm missing?

1 hour ago, TheSTARKempire said:

If one claims that the freys are more powerful than the Manderlys, I can't help but wonder whether he is reading a different book. This should not even be a debate. I say this not because us northern fans are biased. We would never say manderly is more powerful than hightower. it goes against common sense and makes us look stupid.  

Definitely not more powerful than Hightower...but Hightower is one of the only non-great houses I'd put ahead of Manderly. Maybe Royce, maybe Dayne, probably Redwyne, maybe someone like Tarly, Yronwood or Caron, Velaryon or Reyne in their days,  but I can't think of many non-great houses i'd put in the same class as them in wealth, power, size and strength. Frey is important only because of geography and making the right friends at the right time (though they refuse to accept that they're being played as pawns).

[Anton Martell]

15 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

 

Definitely not more powerful than Hightower...but Hightower is one of the only non-great houses I'd put ahead of Manderly. Maybe Royce, maybe Dayne, probably Redwyne, maybe someone like Tarly, Yronwood or Caron, Velaryon or Reyne in their days,  but I can't think of many non-great houses i'd put in the same class as them in wealth, power, size and strength. Frey is important only because of geography and making the right friends at the right time (though they refuse to accept that they're being played as pawns).

I agree with what you say about Hightower and other houses, but I think the Freys are not that far from Manderlys anyway, they are one of the main riverlands house still

[Free Northman Reborn]

30 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

Fair enough. Out of curiosity, do you remember all this or look it up (pretty much an open question) or is there some quick search I'm missing?

Definitely not more powerful than Hightower...but Hightower is one of the only non-great houses I'd put ahead of Manderly. Maybe Royce, maybe Dayne, probably Redwyne, maybe someone like Tarly, Yronwood or Caron, Velaryon or Reyne in their days,  but I can't think of many non-great houses i'd put in the same class as them in wealth, power, size and strength. 

If I go by troop numbers - and therefore by implication population size - I rank the following lords definitely above House Manderly:

House Hightower

House Redwyne (You don't have 200 warships and 1000 merchant ships without being a very powerful lord)

After that I believe there is quite a drop and then we get to the Manderly tier of power. 

Houses that might fall in the Manderly category in my view are possibly the likes of House Rowan (who if they have taken over all of House Peake's "peak" power, might rule 100 landed knights and 20 petty lords, but no city. House Royce, who seems to be very powerful in the Vale context, although again, they rule no city in their own right.

Houses like House Grafton seem confined to Gulltown itself, without the extensive surrounding lands and control of a White Knife type trade network that the Manderlys have. And even then, Gulltown is apparently shared with House Shett. So it seems that the Graftons, while probably on a Manderly level of wealth, might not rule as many people as Lord Manderly, and do not seem to have the military strength of the Manderlys as a result.

House Lannister of Lannisport don't have control over Lannisport, as Casterly Rock rules it directly. Tywin seems to have done a decent job of cutting the most powerful secondary Houses in the West down to size. The Rains of Castamere and all that.

House Lefford might be pretty powerful, but we have too little information to go on.

In any case, there might be more, but I think I would only list Houses Hightower and Redwynne as definitely stronger than House Manderly.

I would place Houses like the Yronwoods, Freys, Boltons, and perhaps the Royces, all on a broadly similar level, as the traditional "2nd" Houses of their regions. The Manderlys were upstarts who arrived in the North relatively recently, but who overtook the traditional 2nd House - the Boltons - to occupy the place of most powerful vassals of the North. They are kind of the Hightowers of the North, so to speak.

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

17 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Manderlys don't just rule a city, they rule the lands around it, and all the trade that passes through that city. Wyman even mentions how far his influence goes, and it extends into other Lords' lands such as the Flints and Woolfields.

It's safe to say that the Manderlys would win against the Freys, on nearly every front.

All Lords have vassals, the Freys are one of the few Houses who actually have Lordly vassals (the others being the Hightowers, Royces and Vances). 

What we know from the books is that the Freys have generated more troops in the series, at least 4k this far, than the Manderlys have, around the 2k mark.

Both Houses are rich. It is not made clear who is the richer.

15 hours ago, Anton Martell said:

 

when is it stated that the Umbers own half of it? Especially if the Umber are one of the farthest northern houses from the Manderlys?

Both the Umbers and Manderlys were asking Winterfell for money to build separate Navies, Rodrik commanded them to work together using Umber wood to build the ships.

The Umbers are part owners of the fleet.

And if we are counting the Manderlys Navy (which has yet to be properly crewed or even seen the ocean in the current series) then should we not also be counting the Freys acquisition of Riverrun?

15 hours ago, Anton Martell said:

 

As for the debate, I'd say the Manderlys are the wealthiest. And wealth often buy military power (horses, navy...). As for the number of men, it is not stated, but I always seemed to believe that the 4K of the Freys were not that much (that's the impression I got from Cat's reaction). But I might be wrong about that. 

The Freys likely supplied more men to Robb's cause than any other vassal House, more than double what the Manderlys gave.

Can I ask which Cat reaction you are referring to? Here is a reaction from Robb.

"We must win back the Freys," said Robb. "With them, we still have some chance of success, however small. Without them, I see no hope. I am willing to give Lord Walder whatever he requires"

She is in doubt about their importance

House Frey might have abandoned the King in the North, but the Lord of the Crossing remained the most powerful of Riverrun's bannermen, and Lothar was here in his stead.

15 hours ago, Anton Martell said:

 

Now, the Freys are definitly a very strong House, especially now during the events of ASOIAF. but the land they controlis huge since the North is bigger and they have basically all of the south-east of the North (and Widow's watch and Ramsgate are pretty far from White Harbor).

The Manderlys don't control Widow's Watch, Wyman states he has influence over that House.

And while lands may seem important what is just as important, if not more so, is population density. The Freys may well have more people present in their lands; and while I don't think a size of a Houses army is conclusive the Freys have raised far more men in the series than the Manderlys have.

 

15 hours ago, Anton Martell said:

 

The Frey are blocked at the west by the Mallister so they can only "control" what goes along the Kingsroad in the south east. It's still great land, but it's smaller I believe.

The Frey lands extend both North and South of the Mallister lands.

 

[Anton Martell]

To answer point by point: 

 

1) so the Umber have a navy, but they do not share Manderly's navy, they share common capital (wood, workforce) for creating two navies. But I get what you mean.

 

2) I might be wrong about Cat's reaction, I just reread AGOT and I had the impression the Frey didn't give them much in terms of armies. But I can be wrong, i'll try to look for a quote. But your Robb's quote is not proof: he need to cross that is what matters most. More than his troops.

And I never said the Freys were weak or unimportant

 

3) They don't control it, but they have influence. Which is a pretty big deal. Do the Freys influence the Mallisters? And influence might mean they get some tax out of it. House Flint could be sworn to House Manderly. It is not stated as far as I know. But you are right about density, I admit. It will augment your tax revenue+your armies, but it will diminish your ressources, which is not a problem for the Manderlys. And in the meantime the 4K of the Freys are not knights, but farmers etc. going to war. We don't know how many knights exist for them.

 

4) Proof of that? Do we know the limits between House Mallister and Frey? And even if it's true, North is a swamp or the end of it since it's basically the Neck, so not super valuable land. And they would still have all the North West and South West be controlled by either Mallisters or Tullys, and the South West is controlled by House Roote (since it at least starts at Lord Harroway's town and could even go a bit up north). So what they have is the eastern part of the north riverlands (I hope my direction are not too confusing haha). And it's limited by the Vale which controls the extreme north east of the neck and this part of the Kings road (according to TWOIF map). You also have to add the fact that the extreme eastern part must begin to be hills since you're getting closer to Vale mountains, so not super valuable land either (but I admit I might be stretching on this particular point). So basically they hold The Twins which are very valuable, and good farlmands near the Kingsroad and the Green Fork. I don't think it competes with a big port city and huge lands.

[Nittanian]

54 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

Fair enough. Out of curiosity, do you remember all this or look it up (pretty much an open question) or is there some quick search I'm missing?

I usually search my ebooks or check A Search of Ice and Fire.

[Free Northman Reborn]

9 minutes ago, Anton Martell said:

To answer point by point: 

 

1) so the Umber have a navy, but they do not share Manderly's navy, they share common capital (wood, workforce) for creating two navies. But I get what you mean.

 

2) I might be wrong about Cat's reaction, I just reread AGOT and I had the impression the Frey didn't give them much in terms of armies. But I can be wrong, i'll try to look for a quote. But your Robb's quote is not proof: he need to cross that is what matters most. More than his troops.

And I never said the Freys were weak or unimportant

 

3) They don't control it, but they have influence. Which is a pretty big deal. Do the Freys influence the Mallisters? And influence might mean they get some tax out of it. House Flint could be sworn to House Manderly. It is not stated as far as I know. But you are right about density, I admit. It will augment your tax revenue+your armies, but it will diminish your ressources, which is not a problem for the Manderlys. And in the meantime the 4K of the Freys are not knights, but farmers etc. going to war. We don't know how many knights exist for them.

 

4) Proof of that? Do we know the limits between House Mallister and Frey? And even if it's true, North is a swamp or the end of it since it's basically the Neck, so not super valuable land. And they would still have all the North West and South West be controlled by either Mallisters or Tullys, and the South West is controlled by House Roote (since it at least starts at Lord Harroway's town and could even go a bit up north). So what they have is the eastern part of the north riverlands (I hope my direction are not too confusing haha). And it's limited by the Vale which controls the extreme north east of the neck and this part of the Kings road (according to TWOIF map). You also have to add the fact that the extreme eastern part must begin to be hills since you're getting closer to Vale mountains, so not super valuable land either (but I admit I might be stretching on this particular point). So basically they hold The Twins which are very valuable, and good farlmands near the Kingsroad and the Green Fork. I don't think it competes with a big port city and huge lands.

The Freys have 1000 knights and 3000 infantry with Robb. They are confirmed as the most powerful Riverland House. They are a big deal.

More powerful than the Karstarks. Probably similar to the Boltons, but wealthier.

[Anton Martell]

I always said they were a big deal, never compared them to Karstark. 

 

the 1000 knight, where do they come from? It seems like a huge number...

[Free Northman Reborn]

19 minutes ago, Anton Martell said:

I always said they were a big deal, never compared them to Karstark. 

 

the 1000 knight, where do they come from? It seems like a huge number...

I know. I'm just providing some context. The 1000 knights are stated in Game Of Thrones. When Robb is at the Twins.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

32 minutes ago, Anton Martell said:

the 1000 knight, where do they come from? It seems like a huge number...

in ASOS:

"Dare I ask how many swords come with your bride, Robb?"

"Fifty. A dozen knights." His voice was glum, as well it might be. When the marriage contract had been made at the Twins, old Lord Walder Frey had sent Robb off with a thousand mounted knights and near three thousand foot.

[Anton Martell]

Well then, I shall apologize for this part. As for the rest, I await a rebuttal, if one can be provided 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

6 minutes ago, Anton Martell said:

Well then, I shall apologize for this part. As for the rest, I await a rebuttal, if one can be provided 

1. One of your points was that you thought Cat did not seem impressed with the 4k the Freys supplied to her son. How is someone supposed to give a rebuttal to something that never happened in the books? Cat is aghast when Robb loses the support of the Freys, she agrees with Robb that they are essential to any hopes they have of still winning.

2. Another point you made is the Freys lands only reside on the Green Fork and the Kingsroad but we know their lands stretch past the Blue Fork as the villages of Hags Mire and Sevenstreams both fall on the Blue Fork

All the way up the Blue Fork they rode, past Sevenstreams where the river unraveled into a confusion of rills and brooks, then through Hag's Mire

which we know from one of the brothers on the Wall is ruled by the Freys

That was sweet, the look on her face, so he pulled the knife out and put it in her again. When they caught him down near Sevenstreams, old Lord Walder Frey hadn't even bothered to come himself to do the judging. He'd sent one of his bastards, that Walder Rivers

So it is not just a rich bridge but large lands with access to two of the largest rivers in Westeros and lands near the Kingsroad.

3. Both the Manderlys and Umbers were asking Winterfell for money to build ships, Rodrik Cassel made the compromise;

Ser Rodrik pulled at his whiskers. "You have forests of tall pine and old oak. Lord Manderly has shipwrights and sailors in plenty. Together you ought to be able to float enough longships to guard both your coasts."

"Manderly?" Mors Umber snorted. "That great waddling sack of suet? His own people mock him as Lord Lamprey, I've heard. The man can scarce walk. If you stuck a sword in his belly, ten thousand eels would wriggle out."

"He is fat," Ser Rodrik admitted, "but he is not stupid. You will work with him, or the king will know the reason why." And to Bran's astonishment, the truculent Umbers agreed to do as he commanded, though not without grumbling.

So the Navy is shared by the Umbers and Manderlys (and perhaps the Starks as well).

And of course if this Navy is being included in the Manderlys power, why is the lands and wealth of Riverrun not included with the Freys?

[Anton Martell]

10 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

1. One of your points was that you thought Cat did not seem impressed with the 4k the Freys supplied to her son. How is someone supposed to give a rebuttal to something that never happened in the books? Cat is aghast when Robb loses the support of the Freys, she agrees with Robb that they are essential to any hopes they have of still winning.

2. Another point you made is the Freys lands only reside on the Green Fork and the Kingsroad but we know their lands stretch past the Blue Fork as the villages of Hags Mire and Sevenstreams both fall on the Blue Fork

All the way up the Blue Fork they rode, past Sevenstreams where the river unraveled into a confusion of rills and brooks, then through Hag's Mire

which we know from one of the brothers on the Wall is ruled by the Freys

That was sweet, the look on her face, so he pulled the knife out and put it in her again. When they caught him down near Sevenstreams, old Lord Walder Frey hadn't even bothered to come himself to do the judging. He'd sent one of his bastards, that Walder Rivers

So it is not just a rich bridge but large lands with access to two of the largest rivers in Westeros and lands near the Kingsroad.

3. Both the Manderlys and Umbers were asking Winterfell for money to build ships, Rodrik Cassel made the compromise;

Ser Rodrik pulled at his whiskers. "You have forests of tall pine and old oak. Lord Manderly has shipwrights and sailors in plenty. Together you ought to be able to float enough longships to guard both your coasts."

"Manderly?" Mors Umber snorted. "That great waddling sack of suet? His own people mock him as Lord Lamprey, I've heard. The man can scarce walk. If you stuck a sword in his belly, ten thousand eels would wriggle out."

"He is fat," Ser Rodrik admitted, "but he is not stupid. You will work with him, or the king will know the reason why." And to Bran's astonishment, the truculent Umbers agreed to do as he commanded, though not without grumbling.

So the Navy is shared by the Umbers and Manderlys (and perhaps the Starks as well).

And of course if this Navy is being included in the Manderlys power, why is the lands and wealth of Riverrun not included with the Freys?

1) I said I might be wrong about that. And it seems I am since you've proven the 1000 knights thing. I've been trying to get the quote, and I can't seem to find it, so I'm very probably wrong. 

 

2) Yep, up to the Blue fork, so the north of the blue fork. Hag's Mire according to http://quartermaester.info is a little up north than Oldstones (although the map differs a bit from TWOIF maps). So it's not the entirety of the Blue Fork. It's the land between green and blue fork basically. Again: it's good land, very fertile but it's not bigger than Manderly's.

 

3) Could you read my answer: I said that they shared capital: wood and workforce. Basically they put together their ressources. and the produce of said ressources is being shared. That does not mean that the Umber control half the Manderly's navy. it's two different navies, built in the same place with the same material. When Lockheed Martin builds a F-35 for the US and for the UK, the UK and US don't share their aircrafts. But again, I understood what you meant, it's just that it wasn't clear. 

 

Again, the Freys are a very powerful House, but I don't think they are as powerful as the Manderlys. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

10 minutes ago, Anton Martell said:

2) Yep, up to the Blue fork, so the north of the blue fork. Hag's Mire according to http://quartermaester.info is a little up north than Oldstones (although the map differs a bit from TWOIF maps). So it's not the entirety of the Blue Fork. It's the land between green and blue fork basically. Again: it's good land, very fertile but it's not bigger than Manderly's.

I didn't say it was the entirety of the Blue Fork nor did I claim their lands were larger than the Manderlys.

The Riverlands is the second or third most densely populated region according to the books;

Yet even at their greatest extent, the realms of the Durrandons and their successors have always been thinly peopled when compared to the Reach, the riverlands, and the west

and according to the author, on his description of the realms

The riverlands are rich and fertile and populous, but suffer from divided leadership and a lack of natural boundaries

while at the same time pointing out that that

but the north is much bigger, so it takes longer for an army to gather. And life is harsher there as well, so lords and smallfolk both need to think carefully before beating those plowshares into swords.

So while the Manderly lands may be larger that may well not translate into a larger population or even a greater wealth generated by the people sworn to the Manderlys.

 

[Anton Martell]

2 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I didn't say it was the entirety of the Blue Fork nor did I claim their lands were larger than the Manderlys.

The Riverlands is the second or third most densely populated region according to the books;

Yet even at their greatest extent, the realms of the Durrandons and their successors have always been thinly peopled when compared to the Reach, the riverlands, and the west

and according to the author, on his description of the realms

The riverlands are rich and fertile and populous, but suffer from divided leadership and a lack of natural boundaries

while at the same time pointing out that that

but the north is much bigger, so it takes longer for an army to gather. And life is harsher there as well, so lords and smallfolk both need to think carefully before beating those plowshares into swords.

So while the Manderly lands may be larger that may well not translate into a larger population or even a greater wealth generated by the people sworn to the Manderlys.

 

I agree with you as I said earlier: more density=more taxes+armies. But it also is a pain on your resources since you need to feed those people. What matters to me about the large land of the Manderlys is to show that they have influence on a large piece of the North, which is proof of a strong political power at least. And yes, probably the land itself won't give you as much maybe (although you'll have a better diversity of product with some wood, fishing maybe mining in the manderly's land), but it will be offset by White Harbor revenues.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

12 minutes ago, Anton Martell said:

I agree with you as I said earlier: more density=more taxes+armies. But it also is a pain on your resources since you need to feed those people. What matters to me about the large land of the Manderlys is to show that they have influence on a large piece of the North, which is proof of a strong political power at least.

The Freys are the most powerful Vassal House in the Riverlands, surely they too have influence? And the Frey lands seem to be large in the Riverlands, they may well rule a larger percentage of the Riverlands than the Manderlys do of the North.

Walder seems to have strong political power, outside of the Tullys, as well if we look at their marriage alliances and the times Walder has hosted royalty.

"Now my bastards presume to teach me courtesy," Lord Walder complained. "I'll speak any way I like, damn you. I've had three kings to guest in my life, and queens as well"