Which house is more powerful?: mandrely or Frey?

[Anton Martell]

Just now, thelittledragonthatcould said:

The Freys are the most powerful Vassal House in the Riverlands, surely they too have influence? And the Frey lands seem to be large in the Riverlands, they may well rule a larger percentage of the Riverlands than the Manderlys do of the North.

Walder seems to have strong political power, outside of the Tullys, as well if we look at their marriage alliances and the times Walder has hosted royalty.

"Now my bastards presume to teach me courtesy," Lord Walder complained. "I'll speak any way I like, damn you. I've had three kings to guest in my life, and queens as well"

 

In percentage of land I don't know exactly. But they are surrounded by the Mallister, The Vale and other house to the South. so it is still somewhat limited when Manderly can say that basically all the South-East of the North is under his influence. But it is a rather nitpicky point I guess.

But I do agree that they hold quite a lot of power no matter what, especially since they hold somewhat the way to the North. That is why Kings go to guest there I guess. Now where they are in the story currently, they have a much bigger influence than the Manderlys, but at the start of the story, I think it is comparable. I don't know really. 

 

I think we agree more than we think

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, Anton Martell said:

In percentage of land I don't know exactly. But they are surrounded by the Mallister, The Vale and other house to the South.

Surrounded? The Mallisters, while prestigious and powerful are still less powerful than the Freys. Look at the Riverlands where the majority of the powerful Lords are placed.The center of the Riverlands looks a far more congested place with many Houses fighting for power influence. Tullys, Brackens, Pipers and Blackwoods all withing a day or two of each other.

 

1 minute ago, Anton Martell said:

 

so it is still somewhat limited when Manderly can say that basically all the South-East of the North is under his influence. But it is a rather nitpicky point I guess.

But they can't, not really. House Flint and House Locke are not their vassals. Currently they are ruled by an old man and a pregnant lady. 

But of course the same can be said of the Freys, the Darry lands are currenly under the influence of the Freys

"You must forgive my daughter," said an older woman. Lady Amerei had brought a score of Freys to Darry with her; a sister, an uncle, a half uncle, various cousins . . . and her mother, who had been born a Darry. "She still grieves for her father."

Then there are the lands between Darry and the Frey lands which are currently being 'policed' by Freys and Lord Vypren (married to a Frey daughter).

So we thought, at first." Though Lady Mariya's hair was streaked with grey, she was still a handsome woman. "The killers scattered when they left Oldstones. Lord Vypren tracked one band to Fairmarket, but lost them there. Black Walder led hounds and hunters into Hag's Mire after the others.

https://40.media.tumblr.com/73e2c65768ea5e413dcd2257a4b7912b/tumblr_ne6gxjgzVi1u2n5cyo1_500.png

So both Lords can claim to 'influence' large parts of their lands.

 

Just to reiterate, I'm not arguing one is stronger than the other just pointing out that there is no clear answer.

The Riverlands is certainly richer than the North, more densely populated (not enough information to say who has the larger population); who can really say if the Riverlands most powerful vassal is weaker than the Norths first or second most powerful vassal. The books certainly don't give a clear answer.

 

[Anton Martell]

1 minute ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Surrounded? The Mallisters, while prestigious and powerful are still less powerful than the Freys. Look at the Riverlands where the majority of the powerful Lords are placed.The center of the Riverlands looks a far more congested place with many Houses fighting for power influence. Tullys, Brackens, Pipers and Blackwoods all withing a day or two of each other.

 

But they can't, not really. House Flint and House Locke are not their vassals. Currently they are ruled by an old man and a pregnant lady. 

But of course the same can be said of the Freys, the Darry lands are currenly under the influence of the Freys

"You must forgive my daughter," said an older woman. Lady Amerei had brought a score of Freys to Darry with her; a sister, an uncle, a half uncle, various cousins . . . and her mother, who had been born a Darry. "She still grieves for her father."

Then there are the lands between Darry and the Frey lands which are currently being 'policed' by Freys and Lord Vypren (married to a Frey daughter).

So we thought, at first." Though Lady Mariya's hair was streaked with grey, she was still a handsome woman. "The killers scattered when they left Oldstones. Lord Vypren tracked one band to Fairmarket, but lost them there. Black Walder led hounds and hunters into Hag's Mire after the others.

https://40.media.tumblr.com/73e2c65768ea5e413dcd2257a4b7912b/tumblr_ne6gxjgzVi1u2n5cyo1_500.png

So both Lords can claim to 'influence' large parts of their lands.

 

Just to reiterate, I'm not arguing one is stronger than the other just pointing out that there is no clear answer.

The Riverlands is certainly richer than the North, more densely populated (not enough information to say who has the larger population); who can really say if the Riverlands most powerful vassal is weaker than the Norths first or second most powerful vassal. The books certainly don't give a clear answer.

 

I agree with most of what you say (especially about the center of the riverlands) but about the first point:

 

The Mallister are weaker than the Freys, but on a protocolar level they are at the same level (meaning only the Tullys are above). This does not take into account power at all. And they seem to be a proud House, not subject to Frey influence (but that might be my take on it, I can be wrong). So it limits Frey's influence in the west. House Flint may be on the same protocolar level as Manderlys, but not House Locke (since they are not named under the main houses sworn to the Starks in the AGOT appendix), they might be vassals to Lord Manderly. 

I think House Flint and House Darry are similar: protocolarly they are equals to Frey/Manderly, but they are subject to their influence, but not on a "official" level.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, Anton Martell said:

I agree with most of what you say (especially about the center of the riverlands) but about the first point:

 

The Mallister are weaker than the Freys, but on a protocolar level they are at the same level (meaning only the Tullys are above). This does not take into account power at all. And they seem to be a proud House, not subject to Frey influence (but that might be my take on it, I can be wrong). So it limits Frey's influence in the west. House Flint may be on the same protocolar level as Manderlys, but not House Locke (since they are not named under the main houses sworn to the Starks in the AGOT appendix), they might be vassals to Lord Manderly. 

I think House Flint and House Darry are similar: protocolarly they are equals to Frey/Manderly, but they are subject to their influence, but not on a "official" level.

House Dustin is not named in the AGOT appendix either, it has little bearing on the importance of a House. Both House Locke and Dustin are included in later appendices and seem to be of the same rank as the Manderlys

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Dance_with_Dragons-Appendix#HOUSE_STARK

And the 'principle' Houses in the AGOT appendix does not seem to be based on rank or power as House Baelish of the Fingers(poor landed knight) is listed as a principle House of the Arryns, House Westerling (destitute) and Clegane (landed knight) are listed as principle Houses of the Lannisters while Seaworth is listed as a principle House for Stannis.

 

[Anton Martell]

8 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

House Dustin is not named in the AGOT appendix either, it has little bearing on the importance of a House. Both House Locke and Dustin are included in later appendices and seem to be of the same rank as the Manderlys

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Dance_with_Dragons-Appendix#HOUSE_STARK

And the 'principle' Houses in the AGOT appendix does not seem to be based on rank or power as House Baelish of the Fingers(poor landed knight) is listed as a principle House of the Arryns, House Westerling (destitute) and Clegane (landed knight) are listed as principle Houses of the Lannisters while Seaworth is listed as a principle House for Stannis.

 

I agree with the power thing, but protocolary I think when they say the principal houses it means they have precedence over other, at least protocolarly. But I might be wrong about that too, especially if Clegane is indeed mentioned. 

 

But the appendix of the other books never mentions the word "principal houses" though, even when mentionning the Dustins. 

[House Beaudreau]

I would say the Manderlys, they have a Port and one of the Largest towns in Westeros. They are also united, the Freys are nearing civil war within the house after old Walder dies.

[Tarellen]

On July 28, 2016 at 1:43 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

If I go by troop numbers - and therefore by implication population size - I rank the following lords definitely above House Manderly:

House Hightower

House Redwyne (You don't have 200 warships and 1000 merchant ships without being a very powerful lord)

After that I believe there is quite a drop and then we get to the Manderly tier of power. 

Houses that might fall in the Manderly category in my view are possibly the likes of House Rowan (who if they have taken over all of House Peake's "peak" power, might rule 100 landed knights and 20 petty lords, but no city. House Royce, who seems to be very powerful in the Vale context, although again, they rule no city in their own right.

Houses like House Grafton seem confined to Gulltown itself, without the extensive surrounding lands and control of a White Knife type trade network that the Manderlys have. And even then, Gulltown is apparently shared with House Shett. So it seems that the Graftons, while probably on a Manderly level of wealth, might not rule as many people as Lord Manderly, and do not seem to have the military strength of the Manderlys as a result.

House Lannister of Lannisport don't have control over Lannisport, as Casterly Rock rules it directly. Tywin seems to have done a decent job of cutting the most powerful secondary Houses in the West down to size. The Rains of Castamere and all that.

House Lefford might be pretty powerful, but we have too little information to go on.

In any case, there might be more, but I think I would only list Houses Hightower and Redwynne as definitely stronger than House Manderly.

I would place Houses like the Yronwoods, Freys, Boltons, and perhaps the Royces, all on a broadly similar level, as the traditional "2nd" Houses of their regions. The Manderlys were upstarts who arrived in the North relatively recently, but who overtook the traditional 2nd House - the Boltons - to occupy the place of most powerful vassals of the North. They are kind of the Hightowers of the North, so to speak.

 

So mandrely are in a class just below the Hightowers and redwynes? Hm that makes sense.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Tarellen said:

So mandrely are in a class just below the Hightowers and redwynes? Hm that makes sense.

Well yes. But that doesn't mean they are alone in that class. Nor does it mean they are definitely the most powerful in that class. We just don't have enough information to go on. But if there are other Houses in that class that exceed them, I would go for some of the most powerful Reach Houses, below the Hightowers and Redwynne's in strength.

In my view one should look for lords that rule large settlements and by implication the lands around them for possible contenders. For example, I would imagine that the former Darklyns of Duskendale were quite powerful lords. In my view they should be far more powerful than the Freys, given that they rule a large port town - possibly the largest port on the Narrow Sea other than the three Narrow Sea cities. I don't know if the Rykkers command all the lands that the Darklyns had back when they ruled the town, but in my mind Duskendale is a far more valuable resource than a mere bridge spanning a remote part of the upper Trident. Now, the Darklyns would still be far weaker than the Manderlys, but still, they ruled the type of thriving port settlement that would make one take note of their wealth and resources.

Also, House Rowan keeps coming up in my mind as well, because of the description of the former holdings of House Peake 1000 years ago, which House Rowan appears to have taken over. House Peake ruled 20 lesser lords and a hundred landed knights back then. To me this would be a worthy contender for House Manderly, with the city of White Harbor and its trade potentially giving the Manderlys the edge.

Anyway, that's how my mind works. But as I said, we don't have enough information to state without a doubt where all of these Houses lie on the ranking scale. I would say that the Manderlys appear a real contender to be the third most powerful vassal House in Westeros, after Houses Hightower and Redwynne.

[Rise]

• 50 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

   

  Also, House Rowan keeps coming up in my mind as well, because of the description of the former holdings of House Peake 1000 years ago, which House Rowan appears to have taken over. House Peake ruled 20 lesser lords and a hundred landed knights back then. To me this would be a worthy contender for House Manderly, with the city of White Harbor and its trade potentially giving the Manderlys the edge.

  Anyway, that's how my mind works. But as I said, we don't have enough information to state without a doubt where all of these Houses lie on the ranking scale. I would say that the Manderlys appear a real contender to be the third most powerful vassal House in Westeros, after Houses Hightower and Redwynne.

  Maybe you have different source, but is it the House Osgreys former lands that House Rowan controls, if i remember correct the Peakes are living near red mountains. Far away from Rowans holdings.

• Sorry about off topic.

[Free Northman Reborn]

34 minutes ago, Rise said:

• Maybe you have different source, but is it the House Osgreys former lands that House Rowan controls, if i remember correct the Peakes are living near red mountains. Far away from Rowans holdings.

• Sorry about off topic.

You are quite correct. I have no idea why I thought it was House Peake. It is House Osgrey I'm thinking about. Thanks for the correction.

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

The Freys may have more family members thanks to Walder (either way you look at it lolol bad red wedding joke there) but the Manderly's have more of pretty much everything else. They have control of the biggest city in the north and are pretty rich. The Freys have control of an important military position but not much else.