Khal BlackfyreO Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 So Aerys has called for the heads of Eddard Stark, now the head of his house, and Robert Baratheon, already the head of his. Jon Arryn realizes he cannot consent to handing over his wards to a certain death at the hands of a madman and calls his banners. The scene is set for Rebellion. But what comes after? What happens when and if we win? Where and when do these questions arise, how are they answered, and who does the answering? Why is Robert chosen to be the new king? Why not Ned? Why not Jon? Why not somebody else? At what point does this happen and why do they come to the conclusions they came to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Robert was chosen because he was the one who won the most battles, he was the one who killed Rhaegar the Monster and he was the one who had the charisma. He was perfect, handsome, strong, charismatic and unmarried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 10 minutes ago, Khal BlackfyreO said: So Aerys has called for the heads of Eddard Stark, now the head of his house, and Robert Baratheon, already the head of his. Jon Arryn realizes he cannot consent to handing over his wards to a certain death at the hands of a madman and calls his banners. The scene is set for Rebellion. But what comes after? What happens when and if we win? Where and when do these questions arise, how are they answered, and who does the answering? Why is Robert chosen to be the new king? Why not Ned? Why not Jon? Why not somebody else? At what point does this happen and why do they come to the conclusions they came to? Robert is chosen new king for, I believe, a few reasons. The first, and most obvious one is that he would be the next in the line of succession based on his Targaryen blood (his paternal grandmother was Rhealla Targaryen) so after Aryes II and his primogeniture, Robert has the best claim to the throne. Then there is the reason that Ned worships the old gods. The king, by custom, needs to be crowned by the high septon. A northern king that worshipped the old gods would be a big pill for the other 6 kingdoms to swallow (not to mention that Ned doesn't seem very anxious to sit the throne in the first place). So why not Jon Arryn? Well, Robert was young, filled with vigor and energy and power, he was beloved of the common people and an renowned warrior. He made a more....erm....kingly presence and also...see #1 that Robert actually has a blood claim to the targ throne anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: unmarried. That is another very good point....while I doubt it was a deciding factor over the others you mention or his targ blood or that Ned was a follower of the old gods, it is super important that he be available for marriage. WEll done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal BlackfyreO Posted July 28, 2016 Author Share Posted July 28, 2016 9 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: Robert was chosen because he was the one who won the most battles, he was the one who killed Rhaegar the Monster and he was the one who had the charisma. He was perfect, handsome, strong, charismatic and unmarried. So in your opinion, this wasn´t decided until after the Trident? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal BlackfyreO Posted July 28, 2016 Author Share Posted July 28, 2016 9 minutes ago, YOVMO said: Robert is chosen new king for, I believe, a few reasons. The first, and most obvious one is that he would be the next in the line of succession based on his Targaryen blood (his paternal grandmother was Rhealla Targaryen) so after Aryes II and his primogeniture, Robert has the best claim to the throne. Then there is the reason that Ned worships the old gods. The king, by custom, needs to be crowned by the high septon. A northern king that worshipped the old gods would be a big pill for the other 6 kingdoms to swallow (not to mention that Ned doesn't seem very anxious to sit the throne in the first place). So why not Jon Arryn? Well, Robert was young, filled with vigor and energy and power, he was beloved of the common people and an renowned warrior. He made a more....erm....kingly presence and also...see #1 that Robert actually has a blood claim to the targ throne anyway I guess the blood claim could be used as an argument to please some of the Targ loyalists, but he never rules as a Targaryen, only as a Baratheon. Typically the name of the ruling house would be taken by the husband (if the only surviving heir was a female) and any children would keep that name, wouldn´t they? So if he were really using a blood claim, wouldn´t he have taken the Targaryen name? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 8 minutes ago, Khal BlackfyreO said: I guess the blood claim could be used as an argument to please some of the Targ loyalists, but he never rules as a Targaryen, only as a Baratheon. Typically the name of the ruling house would be taken by the husband (if the only surviving heir was a female) and any children would keep that name, wouldn´t they? So if he were really using a blood claim, wouldn´t he have taken the Targaryen name? I don't see why he would take the name Targaryen. The fact remains that if Areys packed up the family, Rhaegar, and his kids, and Viscerys and his preggers wife with the unborn Dany and they went skiing in the vale and died in some horrible accident, someone would have given Robert a call and told him to get his butt to kings landing as he was next in line. I am not saying that is the only reason, but I think that, especially for an honorable guy like Ned, it mattered that the line from Aegon I remained unbroken. Further, while Robert had a Baratheon Reign for sure, I believe it is still a Targaryen throne. This is why in the end it must either be sat by a Targaryen or destroyed (I believe the later) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 46 minutes ago, YOVMO said: The first, and most obvious one is that he would be the next in the line of succession based on his Targaryen blood (his paternal grandmother was Rhealla Targaryen) so after Aryes II and his primogeniture, Robert has the best claim to the throne. I don't agree. If Council of 101 was correct Robert was not in the line, if Westeros follows the Salic law then again Robert is out. I believe that Rhaelle was just an excuse for the Targ supporters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: I don't agree. If Council of 101 was correct Robert was not in the line, if Westeros follows the Salic law then again Robert is out. I believe that Rhaelle was just an excuse for the Targ supporters. Who do you expect would have been the next person in line given that council if not Robert (mind you, I am not saying no one would argue but just wondering who you think was around that would have had a stronger blood claim). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal BlackfyreO Posted July 28, 2016 Author Share Posted July 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: I don't agree. If Council of 101 was correct Robert was not in the line, if Westeros follows the Salic law then again Robert is out. I believe that Rhaelle was just an excuse for the Targ supporters. 1 minute ago, YOVMO said: Who do you expect would have been the next person in line given that council if not Robert (mind you, I am not saying no one would argue but just wondering who you think was around that would have had a stronger blood claim). So the whole rebellion starts with the express purpose of ousting the Targaryens and your reasoning for choosing the new successor to the throne is who has the best blood claim? To Targaryen blood? That seems a little too simple for me. Though I can´t say I have a better answer. But it still doesn´t consider who came to this conclusion, who made the decision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 4 minutes ago, YOVMO said: Who do you expect would have been the next person in line given that council if not Robert (mind you, I am not saying no one would argue but just wondering who you think was around that would have had a stronger blood claim). If the people kept the law? No one the House Targaryen would had been ended. Now, since we are in Westeros and no one cares the one who would had the most supporters which means that no one from Aerys' blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 4 minutes ago, Khal BlackfyreO said: So the whole rebellion starts with the express purpose of ousting the Targaryens and your reasoning for choosing the new successor to the throne is who has the best blood claim? To Targaryen blood? That seems a little too simple for me. Though I can´t say I have a better answer. But it still doesn´t consider who came to this conclusion, who made the decision? No. I think that the fact that he had Targaryen blood was one of the reason he was picked. An entire realm had to be brought together. As is pointed out, he also won the most battles, had other advantages like being someone that people (even his enemies) wound up admiring, being a legendary warrior at a young age. There are many reasons for Robert. It is my opinion that Aegon I made the throne and the throne will always be a Targaryen throne. I want to say, in a way, and using a little poetic license, that the throne cannot be wielded by a non Targaryen. From the moment Joff put his inbred ass on that throne things have gone rapidly downhill. Of course you are correct that to say his Targaryen blood was the only reason is WAY too simple. It is one piece in a very big puzzle that involves him being a legendary warrior, being young, unmarried, worshipping the right gods, being charismatic and a good leader, having an ability to turn enemies to friends etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal BlackfyreO Posted July 28, 2016 Author Share Posted July 28, 2016 1 minute ago, YOVMO said: No. I think that the fact that he had Targaryen blood was one of the reason he was picked. An entire realm had to be brought together. As is pointed out, he also won the most battles, had other advantages like being someone that people (even his enemies) wound up admiring, being a legendary warrior at a young age. There are many reasons for Robert. It is my opinion that Aegon I made the throne and the throne will always be a Targaryen throne. I want to say, in a way, and using a little poetic license, that the throne cannot be wielded by a non Targaryen. From the moment Joff put his inbred ass on that throne things have gone rapidly downhill. Of course you are correct that to say his Targaryen blood was the only reason is WAY too simple. It is one piece in a very big puzzle that involves him being a legendary warrior, being young, unmarried, worshipping the right gods, being charismatic and a good leader, having an ability to turn enemies to friends etc. Fair enough, many and various reasons for Robert as top choice... But who makes the decision? How is it agreed upon by the others? Does it just 'happen'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Just now, Khal BlackfyreO said: Fair enough, many and various reasons for Robert as top choice... But who makes the decision? How is it agreed upon by the others? Does it just 'happen'? That is a good question. I mean, it would seem to me that Ned, Lord Hoster, Tywin Lannister (through marriage to Cersei) and Jon Arryn were in agreement and the rest of the realm wasn't in a place to say no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masha Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 11 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: If the people kept the law? No one the House Targaryen would had been ended. Now, since we are in Westeros and no one cares the one who would had the most supporters which means that no one from Aerys' blood. Council 101 wasn't the law and it didn't completely exclude the female line. Otherwise everyone from Aegon III onward would have been exluded since they all came from Rhaegara's line. Westerosi version of Salic law means that female line is next in line only if male line goes extinct, what it doesn't mean that the whole House ends if male line dies, ignoring all female line relatives. Therefore, if Rebellion didn't happen and Aerys and his family just died accidentally @YOVMO , then the call would have went out to Robert. However, since Rebellion happened, Ned and Jon Arryn might have claimed the Throne as pure Usurpers, but they both wanted some connection to old regime/bloodline to get loyalist Houses more or less in line, thus Robert's Targ connection through his grandmother. Besides, Roberts Targ grandmother was child of Aegon V, who was one of the best and nicest Targ kings, everyone had more or less fond memories of him. Its just Aerys II connection they disliked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 1 minute ago, Masha said: Council 101 wasn't the law and it didn't completely exclude the female line. Otherwise everyone from Aegon III onward would have been exluded since they all came from Rhaegara's line. They also came from Daemon's line. 2 minutes ago, Masha said: Westerosi version of Salic law means that female line is next in line only if male line goes extinct, what it doesn't mean that the whole House ends if male line dies, ignoring all female line relatives. And how you know that? 2 minutes ago, Masha said: However, since Rebellion happened, Ned and Jon Arryn might have claimed the Throne as pure Usurpers, but they both wanted some connection to old regime/bloodline to get loyalist Houses more or less in line, thus Robert's Targ connection through his grandmother I don't believe that people actually believed that. I thought that it was an obvious lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 5 minutes ago, Masha said: However, since Rebellion happened, Ned and Jon Arryn might have claimed the Throne as pure Usurpers This is, of course, true. However, Robert had a lot of other things going for him. He was able to bring the Lannisters (through marriage) in with Tully/Stark/Baratheon alliance which made any claim hard to contend, he was the picture perfect of king and he had a very amiable way about him that would, in fact, help the kingdoms to heal from the war. I think that both Ned and Jon Arryn saw that as a boon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BricksAndSparrows Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Ned answers the question, at some point and says that Robert had the best claim. It's not that his claim was beyond questioning, but it was better than Ned or Jon Arryn's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 7 minutes ago, Masha said: Council 101 wasn't the law This is important to note as well. Council 101 had the main goal of establishing that the female line only comes to power with the male line being extinguished. This left Laenor and Viscery's. Laenor had the better blood claim but was only 7 and the council saw that a long regency would be turbulent and leave the realm in a bad way. Further, Viscerys had the backing of many of the major houses in the 7 kingdoms. So the council had the decision between two princes of the blood and chose the one who was able to rule in his own right who also happened to have the support of most of the great houses. In no way does this create presidence, much less law, that says that the closest living blood relative isn't next in line for the throne.....it could, of course, have been argued, but not when Tywin, Hoster, Ned and the Storm Lords all stood behind Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Ronan Storm Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Robert was chosen because: He had the most Targaryen blood. He won the most battles in the Rebellion, and also killed the crown prince. He was a handsome, youthful bachelor (though had been betrothed to Lyanna, so I wonder if the new king wasn't chosen until after Ned returned from the Tower of Joy?). He had a gift for making friends out of enemies/inspired loyalty from his subjects. He was fertile (he had already cranked out Mya Stone, while Jon was childless and Ned probably didn't know about Robb until the fighting was over). There really weren't that many viable candidates for the Iron Throne after the rebellion was won. Ned would never want to rule, Jon's reign would have likely been short with confusion afterwards if he didn't manage to have children. Hoster Tully might have been considered, but he is the only other notable name we have that supported Jon, Ned and Robert. These men wouldn't have allowed the Throne to pass on to a Targ loyalist or the Lannisters. Haha, I suppose Balon Greyjoy could have always put forth a claim... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.