Dany+Tyrion=Love?

[Morgana Lannister]

On 7/4/2017 at 2:14 AM, A Ghost of Someone said:

It is called a joke. A joke that pertains to the two people involved in the suggested OP, not the people who want it.

Tyrion = Shrimp

Dany = Barbie

and no I am not Australian but the phrase is catchy, Shrimp on the .......

Fine.  I do not even ship these two so not sure why you go on about it but hey...

[teej6]

1 hour ago, Lysander said:

There have been signs pointing to it in the books since the beginning, as any astute reader could glean using their god-given abilities of critical thought.

Please enlighten us with your astute reading and god-given critical thought abilities and provide us with these so-called hints in the books of Jon and Dany ending up together you keep referring to. Ah in one of your later comments I see you refer to Dany's vision in the HoTU. Please don't tell me that a blue rose growing from a chink in a wall of ice is your only strong hint of Jon ending up with Dany in the books. Because that can be interpreted in several different ways, thw least of which is a romance between Jon and Dany. If anything it's a hint to Jon's identity which would be revealed to Dany somehow. 

If you've really read the books you'd know that the Jon/Dany romantic relationship hints are fairly thin and besides it seems to me that Jon would be rather put off by Dany's feeling of entitlement, righteousness and fire and blood. 

As JQC pointed out the show and books may have the same ending in terms of who sits the IT but who beds who before the end need not be the same. Right now, the show is more or less D&D's fanfic with some broad strokes being the same. 

[Lysander]

5 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Again, that is your personal opinion. After all is Dany charismatic? Her dragons make her. Is she, or at least Book Dant, a good ruler and smart? Heck no, her storyline in Slaver's bay proves it.

 

My personal opinion isn't part of it. Those are the words both GRRM and D&D use when describing her. I was just pointing out that for someone who's drawn upon GRRM's personal statements and opinions in this thread to validate their own, it would be interesting for you to flat-out disagree with his view on his own character. Just food for thought

 

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You are right. Her story in Vale is exactly the same with what happened with Ramsey in WF and will have the same outcome both for her emotion and the overall story.

Perhaps the broad strokes will be the same: Sansa's claim is voided by Robb's will, Jon is resurrected and takes back Winterfell after Stannis falls, Littlefinger takes Sansa North with the Valemen, but has the rug pulled out from under him when Jon is crowned. At this point, it's hard to say.

But that's beside my point. My point is that the details of Sansa's Vale arc are unimportant. What matters is the result, which most likely will be the same. Honestly, the Vale arc has felt like such filler that it's easy to believe that whatever Sansa gets up to there will be pretty uneventful.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

7 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Perhaps the broad strokes will be the same: Sansa's claim is voided by Robb's will, Jon is resurrected and takes back Winterfell after Stannis falls, Littlefinger takes Sansa North with the Valemen, but has the rug pulled out from under him when Jon is crowned. At this point, it's hard to say.

But that's beside my point. My point is that the details of Sansa's Vale arc are unimportant. What matters is the result, which most likely will be the same. Honestly, the Vale arc has felt like such filler that it's easy to believe that whatever Sansa gets up to there will be pretty uneventful.

How is a major trauma that can change a person *uniportant*?

7 minutes ago, Lysander said:

My personal opinion isn't part of it. Those are the words both GRRM and D&D use when describing her. I was just pointing out that for someone who's drawn upon GRRM's personal statements and opinions in this thread to validate their own, it would be interesting for you to flat-out disagree with his view on his own character. Just food for thought

You said it; D&D. Of course they wanted her to be all that, even if the books prove that she isn't.

[Lysander]

5 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

How is a major wound that can change a person *uniportant*?

Sansa's Vale arc was unimportant and uninteresting enough that they thought it would be better to shove her into a separate subplot instead of having her wandering around meeting nothing characters for the past 2 seasons. So no, I don't think Sansa's experience is unimportant to her as a character, on the contrary, Sophie Turner had a lot more to do in Seasons 5/6 because of it. Which again, supports rather than refutes my point.

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You said it; D&D.

On that, they and GRRM agree

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, Lysander said:

Sansa's Vale arc was unimportant and uninteresting enough that they thought it would be better to shove her into a separate subplot instead of having her wandering around meeting nothing characters for the past 2 seasons. So no, I don't think Sansa's experience is unimportant to her as a character, on the contrary, Sophie Turner had a lot more to do in Seasons 5/6 because of it. Which again, supports rather than refutes my point.

It's your personal opinion that the Vale storyline will be unimportant and uninteresting. Until the end of the books you cannot know that. Unless you are GRRM.

1 minute ago, Lysander said:

On that, they and GRRM agree

He did for D&D's fanfiction.

[AEJON TARGARYEN]

4 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

It's your personal opinion that the Vale storyline will be unimportant and uninteresting. Until the end of the books you cannot know that. Unless you are GRRM.

4 hours ago, Lysander said:

Sansa's Vale arc was unimportant and uninteresting enough that they thought it would be better to shove her into a separate subplot instead of having her wandering around meeting nothing characters for the past 2 seasons. So no, I don't think Sansa's experience is unimportant to her as a character, on the contrary, Sophie Turner had a lot more to do in Seasons 5/6 because of it. Which again, supports rather than refutes my point.

On that, they and GRRM agree

That's an assumption, we don't know what her purpose is. 

Sansa's Vale Arc = Important character development but not necessarily crucial. GRRM is a notoriously slow writer but GOT is a tv series, there's no time for in-depth arcs or red herrings. That doesn't make Sansa disposable, two different paths, both lead to the same ending but one path may take a little longer than the other to get to that destination. 

[Lord Friendzone]

10 hours ago, teej6 said:

Please enlighten us with your astute reading and god-given critical thought abilities and provide us with these so-called hints in the books of Jon and Dany ending up together you keep referring to. Ah in one of your later comments I see you refer to Dany's vision in the HoTU. Please don't tell me that a blue rose growing from a chink in a wall of ice is your only strong hint of Jon ending up with Dany in the books. Because that can be interpreted in several different ways, thw least of which is a romance between Jon and Dany. If anything it's a hint to Jon's identity which would be revealed to Dany somehow. 

@MoIaF If you don't mind, gonna use your work here.

http://oadara.tumblr.com/post/153039181416/daenerys-jon-snow-asoiaf-foreshadowing-v2

As you can see not so thin and plenty of to look up to, but you have look for it. A blue flower is in the Bride of Fire part, two previous hints to two of her husbands.

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If you've really read the books you'd know that the Jon/Dany romantic relationship hints are fairly thin and besides it seems to me that Jon would be rather put off by Dany's feeling of entitlement, righteousness and fire and blood. 

Gonna disagree on this.  Jon will not be put off by her but rather into her, same she'd be into him. Both are quite different to what they've met before. Dany very much fits into Jon's idea of woman, Jon although is described as average looking has a charm to him. We don't know how he'll be in the books post resurrection.

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As JQC pointed out the show and books may have the same ending in terms of who sits the IT but who beds who before the end need not be the same. Right now, the show is more or less D&D's fanfic with some broad strokes being the same. 

Relationships, who sits on the iron throne, where main characters ends will be the same. D&D and George has said it many times and are in contact to make sure they arrive to his ending.

[Newstar]

Ahhh yes, the Tyrion+Dany=daughter theory. 

There was (is?) a poster on the General boards, Fire Eater, who was convinced that Dany was going to die giving birth to Tyrion's daughter, although their "evidence" pretty much boiled down to a belief that Shiera Seastar was foreshadowing (due to supposed similarities between Aegon IV and Tyrion and between Serenei and Dany). I don't see anything in ASOIAF itself as support for this, though, and Fire Eater failed to provide any evidence from ASOIAF. I think it's pretty flimsy as far as theories go, not to mention that Tyrion and Dany would need to have sex in order to conceive a child, and the only explanation Fire Eater could offer for how Dany/Tyrion sex would happen was "Dany learning to see beyond physical appearances would be good for her character!" which is not any sort of argument, LOL.

If the Jon/Dany/Tyrion triangle is meant to be the final version of the Jon/Arya/Tyrion triangle from the outline, then Tyrion's love for Dany will be no more requited than Outline Tyrion's love for Arya. I also believe that GRRM never intended Tyrion to end up with anyone, and his doomed obsession with Tysha and what will be his equally doomed love for Dany are part of that.

[Le Cygne]

Books = show assertions don't hold up, the showrunners and GRRM have specifically said they disagree at times about what's included or changed in the show, and they have also said the books and show have diverged and said there could be changes in the end.

Another take on the HOTU, by the way... 

[Le Cygne]

Could be they are consolidating and substituting Dany for Tysha, in terms of emotional journey.

[lojzelote]

21 hours ago, teej6 said:

Please enlighten us with your astute reading and god-given critical thought abilities and provide us with these so-called hints in the books of Jon and Dany ending up together you keep referring to. Ah in one of your later comments I see you refer to Dany's vision in the HoTU. Please don't tell me that a blue rose growing from a chink in a wall of ice is your only strong hint of Jon ending up with Dany in the books. Because that can be interpreted in several different ways, thw least of which is a romance between Jon and Dany. If anything it's a hint to Jon's identity which would be revealed to Dany somehow. 

If you've really read the books you'd know that the Jon/Dany romantic relationship hints are fairly thin and besides it seems to me that Jon would be rather put off by Dany's feeling of entitlement, righteousness and fire and blood. 

As JQC pointed out the show and books may have the same ending in terms of who sits the IT but who beds who before the end need not be the same. Right now, the show is more or less D&D's fanfic with some broad strokes being the same. 

I will put my answer into spoiler tags, so it doesn't annoy people who are here for the discussion of Dany and Tyrion:

 

"The least of which"? Now, that is simply not true. Blue rose has romantic conotations in the story itself as well as in literature in general. You say it is about Lyanna and Rhaegar? First and foremost these visions are about Dany and her life, they are from her POV. Dany will never meet Rhaegar nor Lyanna, they are long dead, they will not play an important role in her life. But their son still can, and it is him the vision describes - and the main descriptor of his symbolic appearance is sweetness. (Before anyone gets into the ridiculous notion that sweetness in ASoIaF is only negative, imagine that vision: the rose is beautiful, it is fragile, it is fighting for its survival in extreme conditions. This is a vision about beauty and hope. That sweetness is love.) If I wanted to describe a romantic love that brings that is endangered (by war, society etc), I could scarcely come up with a more fitting image than that of a hard-pressed, sweet-smelling rose.

Let's also not forget that this vision is a part of the sequence called Bride of Fire, and let's not overlook the Three Mounts. The descriptions of the three fits the three parts of the bride of fire very well: the one to bed - the horse that took her to her first bedding with Drogo, the one to dread - a vision of a corpse, the one to love - a blue flower that fills the air with sweetness. Yes, this blue rose is about love. About love surviving in difficult conditions, but perseverating nonetheless.

I'm not sure what other other clues we should be looking for? These two characters are basically two big walking complementary parallels of each other. They complete each other like Ice and Fire do.

That Dany's entitled and self-righteous? She isn't any more entitled or self-righteous than Stannis, with whom Jon got along quite well (and Stannis didn't even have the advantage of being a beautiful, young passionate woman ). (Let's not get into Jon being arrogant and self-righteous. He's told off a couple of times for acting like a douche.) As for blood and fire... I'd say that it depends on whom it is centered? He could use some fervor to fight the Others. Not to mention that he didn't seem to mind blood and fire so terribly while Ygritte was telling him about how physically weak women 'deserve' to be kidnapped and raped for the rest of their life for being physically weak, that villagers should live down that the Free Folk steal their livelihood, or that one time where he witnessed her killing a defenceless old man right in front of him. Looking at Ygritte, I don't think that a girl has to be morally snow white and a hippie to win Jon's love. And that was before Jon was killed, his soul was partly consumed by his direwolf, and he was resurrected in some kind of a shady magical ritual... he's not going to be a very pleasant guy himself, methinks.

Oh yes, sure. The two arguably most important characters in the entire saga having a romance with each other is most certainly not an important plot point. (Note the irony.) That sounds 'reasonable' just like the one and only poster I have ever blocked.

[teej6]

10 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

@MoIaF If you don't mind, gonna use your work here.

http://oadara.tumblr.com/post/153039181416/daenerys-jon-snow-asoiaf-foreshadowing-v2

As you can see not so thin and plenty of to look up to, but you have look for it. A blue flower is in the Bride of Fire part, two previous hints to two of her husbands.

Gonna disagree on this.  Jon will not be put off by her but rather into her, same she'd be into him. Both are quite different to what they've met before. Dany very much fits into Jon's idea of woman, Jon although is described as average looking has a charm to him. We don't know how he'll be in the books post resurrection.

Relationships, who sits on the iron throne, where main characters ends will be the same. D&D and George has said it many times and are in contact to make sure they arrive to his ending.

Thanks for the link. I still remain unconvinced and feel the evidence for a romance between Jon and Dany to be fairly thin. Why if one tries hard enough, you can find clues for almost anything in the books. I can't say it's entirely impossible though and if they do end up together, Jon would do it out of a sense of duty and not for love. Dany, IMO, is not Jon's type. And, Val is nothing like Dany. 

[teej6]

35 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

I will put my answer into spoiler tags, so it doesn't annoy people who are here for the discussion of Dany and Tyrion:

  Hide contents

"The least of which"? Now, that is simply not true. Blue rose has romantic conotations in the story itself as well as in literature in general. You say it is about Lyanna and Rhaegar? First and foremost these visions are about Dany and her life, they are from her POV. Dany will never meet Rhaegar nor Lyanna, they are long dead, they will not play an important role in her life. But their son still can, and it is him the vision describes - and the main descriptor of his symbolic appearance is sweetness. (Before anyone gets into the ridiculous notion that sweetness in ASoIaF is only negative, imagine that vision: the rose is beautiful, it is fragile, it is fighting for its survival in extreme conditions. This is a vision about beauty and hope. That sweetness is love.) If I wanted to describe a romantic love that brings that is endangered (by war, society etc), I could scarcely come up with a more fitting image than that of a hard-pressed, sweet-smelling rose.

Let's also not forget that this vision is a part of the sequence called Bride of Fire, and let's not overlook the Three Mounts. The descriptions of the three fits the three parts of the bride of fire very well: the one to bed - the horse that took her to her first bedding with Drogo, the one to dread - a vision of a corpse, the one to love - a blue flower that fills the air with sweetness. Yes, this blue rose is about love. About love surviving in difficult conditions, but perseverating nonetheless.

I'm not sure what other other clues we should be looking for? These two characters are basically two big walking complementary parallels of each other. They complete each other like Ice and Fire do.

That Dany's entitled and self-righteous? She isn't any more entitled or self-righteous than Stannis, with whom Jon got along quite well (and Stannis didn't even have the advantage of being a beautiful, young passionate woman ). (Let's not get into Jon being arrogant and self-righteous. He's told off a couple of times for acting like a douche.) As for blood and fire... I'd say that it depends on whom it is centered? He could use some fervor to fight the Others. Not to mention that he didn't seem to mind blood and fire so terribly while Ygritte was telling him about how physically weak women 'deserve' to be kidnapped and raped for the rest of their life for being physically weak, that villagers should live down that the Free Folk steal their livelihood, or that one time where he witnessed her killing a defenceless old man right in front of him. Looking at Ygritte, I don't think that a girl has to be morally snow white and a hippie to win Jon's love. And that was before Jon was killed, his soul was partly consumed by his direwolf, and he was resurrected in some kind of a shady magical ritual... he's not going to be a very pleasant guy himself, methinks.

Oh yes, sure. The two arguably most important characters in the entire saga having a romance with each other is most certainly not an important plot point. (Note the irony.) That sounds 'reasonable' just like the one and only poster I have ever blocked.

I agree, Dany's HoTU is about things related to her. But, you forget she also sees Rhaegar tell her about the tPtwP, who she will have to recognize at some later point. The visions are not just centered on Dany's love life but all that she's going to encounter in her life, which includes her brother's son Jon. The blue rose is associated more with Lyanna than anyone else in the books and is also associated with the Stark female line. As I said before the vision will be central to Dany coming to view Jon as her nephew. The romantic interpretation here is subjective. 

As to Ygritte being morally grey, I didn't say that Jon is attracted to the goody too-shoes proper lady sort but he is definitely not attracted to power hungry women. Cersei rubbed him the wrong way the minute he laid eyes on her. Jon's arc is all about being thrust into the spotlight, the reluctant hero if you will. Dany on the other hand desires power. To me, both are opposites. 

But as you said, this is not the topic of the thread. I just wanted to address the poster who said the books are full of hints of a Jon and Dany romance for the astute reader, which is a very subjective interpretation of the text.

 

[lojzelote]

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

I agree, Dany's HoTU is about things related to her. But, you forget she also sees Rhaegar tell her about the tPtwP, who she will have to recognize at so e later point. The visions are not just centered on Dany's love life but all that she's going to encounter in her life, which includes her brother's son Jon. The blue rose is associated more with Lyanna than anyone else in the books and is also associated with the Stark female line. As I said before the vision will be central to Dany coming to view Jon as her nephew. The romantic interpretation here is subjective. 

As to Ygritte being morally grey, I didn't Jon is attracted to the goody too-shoes proper lady sort but he is definitely not attracted to power hungry women. Cersei rubbed him the wrong waythe minute he laid eyes on her. Jon's arc is all about being thrust into the spotlight, the reluctant hero if you will. Dany on the other hand desires power. To me, both are opposites. 

But as you said, this is not the topic of the thread. I just wanted to address the poster who said the books are full of hints on a Jon  and Dany romance to the astute reader, which is a very subjective interpretation of the text.

 

That was a different part of her vision journey. You're taking it out of context that is the bride of fire and the three mounts. These fit together. As for the rose being more female Stark symbol... how about switching sexes? Dany has seen herself as Rhaegar in some of her dreams/visions, so if she can be a she-Rhaegar, can't Jon be a he-Lyanna? In fact a she-Rhaegar seeing a he-Lyanna just adds to the romantic angle.

EDIT:

As for Dany-Rhaegar, Dany is filling Rhaegar's shoes as the last dragon in order to fulfill the prophecy.

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And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

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"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads."

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That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

That's Rhaegar. But Lyanna? By herself, Lyanna Stark is about as important to Dany as Lysa Tully or Ashara Dayne. Dany's only mildly interested in Lyanna as the girl her idolized brother fell in love with. If the vision was about Jon as Dany's nephew, it would make more sense to stress his connection to Rhaegar, not to Lyanna. Lyanna is not the biological bridge between Dany and Jon; Rhaegar is. Lyanna's not the one important in this context. (But, if Dany is filling Rhaegar's shoes and meets a guy who has been symbolically represented as a blue rose... weeeell.)

If you think Dany is close in character to Cersei, then I'm afraid that reaching a common ground concerning her character will be impossible for us. Dany may have a cruel streak, but she's one of the most empathetic and well-intentioned characters in the series, while Cersei is a narcistic sociopath that cares nothing for the suffering of others. Saying that Jon cannot get to like Dany, because he didn't like Cersei is just... wrong.

And if you believe that Dany's main desire is power... your reading of her character is VERY different from mine. I made a post about Dany's deepest desire. It's not power. It's about finding a safe place that she can call home. And, ugh, I think that Jon is more interesting than just some "reluctant hero" (his book version, anyway). IMO you sell both characters rather short, albeit for vastly different reasons.

[Rhollo]

I just rewatched that scene and, no, can't really detect any romantic undertones.

To me, it looks more like Tyrion is expecting a bad performance review (since, let's face it, he didn't do a good job at running Mereen) and is trying butter up Dany by making the conversation about personal stuff and be charming and reassuring. Not that he needed to, because she was going to make him Hand anyway.

Also, given their history of love interests, there is no real basis for attraction between the two of them.

Dany obviously likes "manly men" (like Drogo and Daario) and very actively showed her non-attraction to the "weak" intellectual/diplomatic Hizdahr (who still was very good looking guy).

With Tyrion, we have Tysha and Shae, two lowborn girls/prostitutes that he tried to reenact "Pretty Women" with. Dany doesn't fit in that pattern at all.

Of course people don't have to go for the same type all the time and odd couplies can happen, but to me, there is nothing to suggests that Dany-Tyrion is anymore than a political alliance, mutual respect and maybe a beginning personal friendship at this point.

[snow is the man]

12 minutes ago, Rhollo said:

I just rewatched that scene and, no, can't really detect any romantic undertones.

To me, it looks more like Tyrion is expecting a bad performance review (since, let's face it, he didn't do a good job at running Mereen) and is trying butter up Dany by making the conversation about personal stuff and be charming and reassuring. Not that he needed to, because she was going to make him Hand anyway.

Also, given their history of love interests, there is no real basis for attraction between the two of them.

Dany obviously likes "manly men" (like Drogo and Daario) and very actively showed her non-attraction to the "weak" intellectual/diplomatic Hizdahr (who still was very good looking guy).

With Tyrion, we have Tysha and Shae, two lowborn girls/prostitutes that he tried to reenact "Pretty Women" with. Dany doesn't fit in that pattern at all.

Of course people don't have to go for the same type all the time and odd couplies can happen, but to me, there is nothing to suggests that Dany-Tyrion is anymore than a political alliance, mutual respect and maybe a beginning personal friendship at this point.

I think they will be friends and nothing more but wouldn't mind if they went this route. But dany didn't like hizdahr for a number of reasons. I think she loathed him because he was a master and she fought against that. She had to think he was part of the harpies since he magically stopped them from attacking people. And he just seemed like a little arrogant weasel. Also I think she loved drogo because she was finally able to be free of her brother and she got to feel powerful. Not saying there werren't other reasons but that was a big part of it. Daario is just a weird one.

[teej6]

41 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

That was a different part of her vision journey. You're taking it out of context that is the bride of fire and the three mounts. These fit together. As for the rose being more female Stark symbol... how about switching sexes? Dany has seen herself as Rhaegar in some of her dreams/visions, so if she can be a she-Rhaegar, can't Jon be a he-Lyanna? In fact a she-Rhaegar seeing a he-Lyanna just adds to the romantic angle.

If you think Dany is close in character to Cersei, then I'm afraid that reaching a common ground concerning her character will be impossible for us. Dany may have a cruel streak, but she's one of the most empathetic and well-intentioned characters in the series, while Cersei is a narcistic sociopath that cares nothing for the suffering of others. Saying that Jon cannot get to like Dany, because he didn't like Cersei is just... wrong.

And if you believe that Dany's main desire is power... zour reading of her character is VERY different from mine. I made a post about Dany's deepest desire. It's not power. It's about finding a safe place that she can call home. And, ugh, I think that Jon is more interesting than just some "reluctant hero" (his book version, anyway). IMO you sell both characters rather short, albeit for vastly different reasons.

I am not reducing Jon's arc to just being the reluctant hero, perhaps that was the wrong trope. However, a big part of his arc in the books is the absence of a desire for power. He does not actively seek power. When he is thrust into a position of power he tries his best to come to terms with it and does the best with what he has. He does not seem to revel in the power that comes with the role as Dany seems to do on many an occasion. I agree, Jon does, however, seek recognition and a desire to be a hero, which is quite different from wanting power. And please don't put words in my mouth, I don't think Dany is like Cersei but a big part of Dany's narrative is seeking the throne and the power that comes with it because she thinks it's her by right. Cersei also feels that she's earned the right to rule. And that is why I compared Dany to Cersei. 

Dany may be empathic and concerned for the well being of her subjects but that doesn't lessen her desire for the IT. And wanting to live a life in a house with a red door still does not change Dany's central desire to rule and take back what's hers with fire and blood. The transformation in Dany's character is evident in her last chapter in ADWD. Considering this aspect of her personality, I find it hard to believe that Jon will be attracted to her. If GRRM does make Jon fall head over heals for the silver haired purple eyed conquering queen, then I'll eat my words and be terribly dissapointed with the outcome cause up until now the way I interpret the text, Jon will not find Dany's personality appealing. 

[lojzelote]

36 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I am not reducing Jon's arc to just being the reluctant hero, perhaps that was the wrong trope. However, a big part of his arc in the books is the absence of a desire for power. He does not actively seek power. When he is thrust into a position of power he tries his best to come to terms with it and does the best with what he has. He does not seem to revel in the power that comes with the role as Dany seems to do on many an occasion. I agree, Jon does, however, seek recognition and a desire to be a hero, which is quite different from wanting power. And please don't put words in my mouth, I don't think Dany is like Cersei but a big part of Dany's narrative is seeking the throne and the power that comes with it because she thinks it's her by right. Cersei also feels that she's earned the right to rule. And that is why I compared Dany to Cersei. 

Dany may be empathic and concerned for the well being of her subjects but that doesn't lessen her desire for the IT. And wanting to live a life in a house with a red door still does not change Dany's central desire to rule and take back what's hers with fire and blood. The transformation in Dany's character is evident in her last chapter in ADWD. Considering this aspect of her personality, I find it hard to believe that Jon will be attracted to her. If GRRM does make Jon fall head over heals for the silver haired purple eyed conquering queen, then I'll eat my words and be terribly dissapointed with the outcome cause up until now the way I interpret the text, Jon will not find Dany's personality appealing. 

Well, one of the things I adore about Book Jon is the deep-buried inner anger that he feels. He tries to overcome it - successfully (at least for now), but it's still there. That's what I find admirable. There's deep-rooted temptation inside him, but he fights it. If there was no temptation, no inner conflict, I would be deeply bored with his character. It's boringly easy to be good if you have no 'bad' tendencies to fight in yourself.

Dany wants the Iron Throne, because she believes she's the last scion of House Targaryen and it's her duty to get it back and avenge her family. She also believes that Westeros is her home, and she desires home as nothing else in the world.

But, if you want to compare Jon and Dany in this regard: imagine that Jon is a trueborn and last heir to House Stark, imagine he's not bound to a sworn brotherhood, imagine he has a large army at his disposal. Do you believe he would not feel entitled to get Winterfell back, avenge his family, and rule the North? Oh yes, he would. Unfortunately for Jon, he's a bastard sworn to the Watch, and he lacks the means to fight a war against the Boltons and the Lannisters.

I think you believe "fire and blood" is an inherently bad thing. It is not.

In his novel Fevre Dream, towards the end of it GRRM put the following words into the the mouth of the novel's protagonist:

Quote

I never held much with slavery […]. You can’t just go… usin’ another kind of people, like they wasn’t people at all. Know what I mean? Got to end, sooner or later. Better if it ends peaceful, but it’s got to end even if it has to be with fire and blood, you see? Maybe that’s what them abolitionists been sayin’ all along. You try to be reasonable, that’s only right, but if it don’t work, you got to be ready. Some things is just wrong. They got to be ended.

Abner Marsh, Fevre Dream, by George R.R. Martin

Just for the context: when we first meet Abner Marsh, he doesn't like slavery, but does nothing against it. After the plot of the novel transpires, he comes to empathize with the enslaved people on a personal level and his opinions radicalize.

That's the state of mind Dany is in at the end of ADwD. She tried to be reasonable towards the slavers, but it didn't work. She's not going to make a fool out of herself in front of them anymore. They want it the hard way? They get it the hard way.

For that matter, Dany's last ADwD chapter is far from the series' conclusion. There is still much space for her to balance the Mother of the People and the Mother of the Dragons. She's still growing, still learning. All of our young protagonists are.

P.S.: I edited my previous post.

[mormont]

[mod] Folks, let's keep it civil, shall we? Sorting out strangers' bickering is not my favourite Saturday night activity. If someone's getting on your nerves, rise above. Don't snipe at them. Thank you. [/mod]