Dany+Tyrion=Love?

[Ser Wun Wun]

1 hour ago, lojzelote said:

In his novel Fevre Dream, towards the end of it GRRM put the following words into the the mouth of the novel's protagonist:

Just for the context: when we first meet Abner Marsh, he doesn't like slavery, but does nothing against it. After the plot of the novel transpires, he comes to empathize with the enslaved people on a personal level and his opinions radicalize.

That's the state of mind Dany is in at the end of ADwD. She tried to be reasonable towards the slavers, but it didn't work. She's not going to make a fool out of herself in front of them anymore. They want it the hard way? They get it the hard way.

I read Fevre Dream years ago, but I wasn't looking for Ice&Fire clues when I read it, so that quote didn't stand out to me.  I can definitely see the parallel to Dany now that you mention it though.  Nice catch.  

[Lord Friendzone]

8 hours ago, teej6 said:

Thanks for the link. I still remain unconvinced and feel the evidence for a romance between Jon and Dany to be fairly thin. Why if one tries hard enough, you can find clues for almost anything in the books.

But author plants these clues for a reason, the books are filled with it so we can connect dots, it goes for other pairing but Jon and Dany we're looking too much into it? That's really not an argument.

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 I can't say it's entirely impossible though and if they do end up together, Jon would do it out of a sense of duty and not for love.

Why duty, so would never love again anyone like Ygritte? When things point towards love, actual textual evidence.

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Dany, IMO, is not Jon's type. And, Val is nothing like Dany. 

Jon has a type strong, willed, independent, killer, wild Dany is all of it. In my opinion she fits the profile and what matter the most is the author agreeing and giving us clues. This is more important mine or yours opinion.

7 hours ago, lojzelote said:

That was a different part of her vision journey. You're taking it out of context that is the bride of fire and the three mounts. These fit together. As for the rose being more female Stark symbol... how about switching sexes? Dany has seen herself as Rhaegar in some of her dreams/visions, so if she can be a she-Rhaegar, can't Jon be a he-Lyanna? In fact a she-Rhaegar seeing a he-Lyanna just adds to the romantic angle.

I an not a fan of switching sexes angle here, it kinda diminishes them as stand in for them, Jon being Lyanna when Jon as opposed to Lyanna is a connected to prophecy a lot, like Rhaegar, shares more traits than Dany as a person. Not that Lyanna is not an important person but this analogy always seemed weird to me. Sure they might mirror them in love, passion, probably better influence on the world and might die, although I wish at least one of them lives.

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EDIT:

As for Dany-Rhaegar, Dany is filling Rhaegar's shoes as the last dragon in order to fulfill the prophecy.

That's Rhaegar. But Lyanna? By herself, Lyanna Stark is about as important to Dany as Lysa Tully or Ashara Dayne. Dany's only mildly interested in Lyanna as the girl her idolized brother fell in love with. If the vision was about Jon as Dany's nephew, it would make more sense to stress his connection to Rhaegar, not to Lyanna. Lyanna is not the biological bridge between Dany and Jon; Rhaegar is. Lyanna's not the one important in this context. (But, if Dany is filling Rhaegar's shoes and meets a guy who has been symbolically represented as a blue rose... weeeell.)

Dany is filling his shoes but why ignoring Jon.

This is about Jon who is a connection to Lyanna (blue rose) who happened to be with Rhaegar which is the big secret here. Blue rose represent Starks and mostly Lyanna, not Rhaegar. This is connection to them and thus to Jon. Much like she saw Robb and the Red Wedding. There is literally no connection, so this is more for debate.

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And if you believe that Dany's main desire is power... your reading of her character is VERY different from mine. I made a post about Dany's deepest desire. It's not power. It's about finding a safe place that she can call home. And, ugh, I think that Jon is more interesting than just some "reluctant hero" (his book version, anyway). IMO you sell both characters rather short, albeit for vastly different reasons.

We know that a house with red door is just a pipe dream for Dany, not a realistic one. For her it's either throne or death, so while she wants home and family ... other character ant many things. 

You better tell that to D&D because to them she's all about throne, power.

I disagree Jon is an eager hero but a reluctant leader, ruler.

[Rhollo]

18 hours ago, snow is the man said:

But dany didn't like hizdahr for a number of reasons. I think she loathed him because he was a master and she fought against that. She had to think he was part of the harpies since he magically stopped them from attacking people. And he just seemed like a little arrogant weasel.

You are talking about Book!Hizdahr.

[Robert Baratheon's hammer]

Tyrion has standards.

[Lysander]

5 minutes ago, Robert Baratheon's hammer said:

Tyrion has standards.

Must be why he's smitten with Dany

[Robert Baratheon's hammer]

36 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Must be why he's smitten with Dany

Well, the Targaryen's are into incest...

[lojzelote]

15 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Dany is filling his shoes but why ignoring Jon.

This is about Jon who is a connection to Lyanna (blue rose) who happened to be with Rhaegar which is the big secret here. Blue rose represent Starks and mostly Lyanna, not Rhaegar. This is connection to them and thus to Jon. Much like she saw Robb and the Red Wedding. There is literally no connection, so this is more for debate.

We know that a house with red door is just a pipe dream for Dany, not a realistic one. For her it's either throne or death, so while she wants home and family ... other character ant many things. 

You better tell that to D&D because to them she's all about throne, power.

I disagree Jon is an eager hero but a reluctant leader, ruler.

The vision is about Jon, but it is about Jon as he pertains to Dany. These visions are Dany's life and feelings. She is the bride of fire, not Jon. Jon is not a blue rose in the absolute objective sense - or do you think that if Janos Slynt entered HotU and got visions of his own life, he would see Jon as a sweet-smelling blue rose? I very much doubt it. For him Jon meant a violent death - and therefore he would be portrayed as something awful.

Jon gets a symbol connected to his mother, because he has much more in common with his mother's kin than his father's, having been reared as a Stark and all. You are right about that IMO. But, should Dany come to despise him he would be portrayed negatively. Let's say... the rose would be blackened and with huge bloody thorns or some such.

Either way you cut it, in the previous generation Rhaegar was the dragon, Lyanna the rose, in the current generation Dany is the dragon, Jon is the rose.

It may very well be a pipe dream. So what? I was not talking about it being a realistic prospect, I was talking about what is her deepest desire. Anyway, to me book characterization beats show characterization squarely. I pretty much watch the show just to get the endgame.

I strongly disagree about Jon. Well, Book Jon:

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That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."

I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he'd taken.

In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. "Jon, enough," Halder was shouting, "he's down, you disarmed him. Enough!"

No. Not enough. Never enough. Jon let his sword drop. "I'm sorry," he muttered. "Emmett, are you hurt?"

Jon hides it, but deep down he wants to be Lord of Winterfell so much it hurts. So much that this one time when he remembers it he loses control of himself and almost harms another person in what should have been a friendly match.

And then there's this dream:

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The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

Jon loves his siblings, but he also resents them a bit (at least Robb, who was his friend, but also a rival in the friendly competition they had going between them). He also feels guilty about his desire to possess what by the laws of men belongs to them, but not to him.

To me that actually makes him interesting. It makes him realistic. Real people have desires and feelings they are not proud of.

 

[snow is the man]

3 hours ago, Rhollo said:

You are talking about Book!Hizdahr.

true. But the one in the show isn't exactly a guy most people would like either

[snow is the man]

3 hours ago, Robert Baratheon's hammer said:

Well, the Targaryen's are into incest...

They cannot go with that in the show. There is absolutely no foreshadowing for it. In the book there is some basis for it but in the show I have seen no suggestion of it.

[snow is the man]

On 7/7/2017 at 6:33 PM, Lysander said:

Sansa's Vale arc was unimportant and uninteresting enough that they thought it would be better to shove her into a separate subplot instead of having her wandering around meeting nothing characters for the past 2 seasons. So no, I don't think Sansa's experience is unimportant to her as a character, on the contrary, Sophie Turner had a lot more to do in Seasons 5/6 because of it. Which again, supports rather than refutes my point.

On that, they and GRRM agree

ugh her vale bit in the books was painfully boring

[snow is the man]

One thing people have to keep in mind about show tyrion is that the tysha in the show was not done like tysha in the books. By that I mean jaime was not a part of it in the show and that makes a big difference. In my opinion that is part of the reason tyrion in the show had less of a spiral after he killed his father. In the books jaime tells tyrion he lied to him about tysha being a whore and it broke tyrion and essentially made him hate the one person he had left

[Lysander]

11 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

ugh her vale bit in the books was painfully boring

For real. Given how subtle and uneventful it's been so far, I can easily see why the Sansa-Jeyne Poole switch must have seemed like a more attractive option to D&D. Of course, the show version invited its own kinds of problems (as in, the incoherent Season 6 Northern plot and the equally spotty development of Sansa as a character).

Also, I agree that the Tyrion Targaryen boat has already sailed, in the show at least. Unlike R+L=J, which has been slowly but steadily drip-fed to the audience throughout every season, A+J=T has basically one scene that could kind of be construed as evidence, and even then it's pretty flimsy. Is this show that subtle? We should all know the answer by now.

[lojzelote]

On 8. 7. 2017 at 5:22 PM, Le Cygne said:

Books = show assertions don't hold up, the showrunners and GRRM have specifically said they disagree at times about what's included or changed in the show, and they have also said the books and show have diverged and said there could be changes in the end.

Another take on the HOTU, by the way... 

Meaning: not always. not even most of the time. Btw I'd like to see that quote where they say they will change the fate of the main characters. That they change fates of people like Pod Payne or Sandor Clegane I expect, because not even GRRM likely knows what's their end.

Oh, and that take on HotU is full of BS. Only a very rabid Dany hater can come to the conclusion that a sweet-smelling rose symbolizes war. I find it very hard to believe that anyone can misunderstand poetic/symbolic language to such a degree without having an agenda... and let's face it, the author of that piece hated Dany.

 

[Rhollo]

10 hours ago, snow is the man said:

true. But the one in the show isn't exactly a guy most people would like either

I honestly can't recall anything particularly unlikeable about his personality. Especially, when compared to Drogo or Daario.

[snow is the man]

2 hours ago, Rhollo said:

I honestly can't recall anything particularly unlikeable about his personality. Especially, when compared to Drogo or Daario.

well drogo was a psychopathic rapists so being more likable then him isn't saying much.  In my opinion her "love" for drogo was because he gave her power she was finally more then her brothers play thing. She no longer had to live in fear and she got treated like...well a queen.  I just never liked hizdahr and to me he seemed I don't know just weasely and annoying. He is way better in the show I admit and that scene with the dragons where he says he wanted to die with pride or something like that was pretty cool. I think that his talk with tyrion and dany at the games made me hate him

[Lord Friendzone]

14 hours ago, lojzelote said:

The vision is about Jon, but it is about Jon as he pertains to Dany. These visions are Dany's life and feelings. She is the bride of fire, not Jon. Jon is not a blue rose in the absolute objective sense - or do you think that if Janos Slynt entered HotU and got visions of his own life, he would see Jon as a sweet-smelling blue rose? I very much doubt it. For him Jon meant a violent death - and therefore he would be portrayed as something awful.

Jon gets a symbol connected to his mother, because he has much more in common with his mother's kin than his father's, having been reared as a Stark and all. You are right about that IMO. But, should Dany come to despise him he would be portrayed negatively. Let's say... the rose would be blackened and with huge bloody thorns or some such.

Either way you cut it, in the previous generation Rhaegar was the dragon, Lyanna the rose, in the current generation Dany is the dragon, Jon is the rose.

I think you're overcomplicating it. Dany has visions of other Starks (Robb and some thinks Bran), yet she's no Stark. She'll never meet Robb, so not that relevant to her future.

A blue rose smelling sweet really symbolizes Jon ... a family of hers, someone she'll be close with and someone who is the product of union of love (sweatness= positive) between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Also, hints at the nature of Rhaegar and Lyanna relationship. This is a hint towards who is mother is  but also raises suspicious who is father is, Ned is not into incest. This is the connection here to her.

The problem is Jon is also a dragon. Dany thinks she's The Last Dragon, well she is currently, but maybe not for long. Dany goes on with her life thinking she is the last of her kind, The Last Dragon. Jon at some point will ride a dragon and become another dragon. How many times he has been reminded he's no Stark and we know from the leaks. 

Spoiler

Jon is a legit Targaryen with a different name, it's there for a reason. LIkely hell have to embrace it in order to achieve his potential.

 

That is already way different to Rhegar and Lyanna relationship.

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It may very well be a pipe dream. So what? I was not talking about it being a realistic prospect, I was talking about what is her deepest desire. Anyway, to me book characterization beats show characterization squarely. I pretty much watch the show just to get the endgame.

Not gonna disagree on that but we have to stay in the line of what show did to those characters and her goal is ower,throne. This is why she wants Jon not to be KITN anymore, no other rule ... only her. I dislike this about the show, same way highlighting her connection to Aerys and not Rhaegar.

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I strongly disagree about Jon. Well, Book Jon:

I was talking about show Jon and to certain extent book Jon. He is an eager hero, when Mance called him on that. He's a reluctant leader and ruler because he has to make choices he might not like, had to ask Maester Aemon for advices on it. Show Jon much more than book Jon wants no part in this. He took a pride of people putting that much of faith into him as Night's Watch brothers or Northerners but as you can see

Spoiler

He give it up and not even for army, he just doesn't care that much for it.

 

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Jon hides it, but deep down he wants to be Lord of Winterfell so much it hurts. So much that this one time when he remembers it he loses control of himself and almost harms another person in what should have been a friendly match.

And then there's this dream:

Jon loves his siblings, but he also resents them a bit (at least Robb, who was his friend, but also a rival in the friendly competition they had going between them). He also feels guilty about his desire to possess what by the laws of men belongs to them, but not to him.

To me that actually makes him interesting. It makes him realistic. Real people have desires and feelings they are not proud of.

This is for book Jon and not show Jon.

[Rhollo]

1 hour ago, snow is the man said:

I think that his talk with tyrion and dany at the games made me hate him

The one where he quite well points out their (esp. Dany's) hypocracy concerning violence, condemning the tradition of the fighting pits (even when the men competing there are volunteers) as barbaric, all while counquering a foreign culture (with an army of freed slaves who are now continue their violent profession voluntarily, oh the irony) and Dany within the last few weeks having people publicly executed, others burned in her basement and forcing him to marry her under threat of death.

I think hating him for that is protagonist bias, e.g. he comes off as an asshole, simply because he disagreed with Dany & Tyrion.

[lojzelote]

1 hour ago, Lord Friendzone said:

I think you're overcomplicating it. Dany has visions of other Starks (Robb and some thinks Bran), yet she's no Stark. She'll never meet Robb, so not that relevant to her future.

A blue rose smelling sweet really symbolizes Jon ... a family of hers, someone she'll be close with and someone who is the product of union of love (sweatness= positive) between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Also, hints at the nature of Rhaegar and Lyanna relationship. This is a hint towards who is mother is  but also raises suspicious who is father is, Ned is not into incest. This is the connection here to her.

The problem is Jon is also a dragon. Dany thinks she's The Last Dragon, well she is currently, but maybe not for long. Dany goes on with her life thinking she is the last of her kind, The Last Dragon. Jon at some point will ride a dragon and become another dragon. How many times he has been reminded he's no Stark and we know from the leaks. 

  Hide contents

Jon is a legit Targaryen with a different name, it's there for a reason. LIkely hell have to embrace it in order to achieve his potential.

 

That is already way different to Rhegar and Lyanna relationship.

Not gonna disagree on that but we have to stay in the line of what show did to those characters and her goal is ower,throne. This is why she wants Jon not to be KITN anymore, no other rule ... only her. I dislike this about the show, same way highlighting her connection to Aerys and not Rhaegar.

I was talking about show Jon and to certain extent book Jon. He is an eager hero, when Mance called him on that. He's a reluctant leader and ruler because he has to make choices he might not like, had to ask Maester Aemon for advices on it. Show Jon much more than book Jon wants no part in this. He took a pride of people putting that much of faith into him as Night's Watch brothers or Northerners but as you can see

  Hide contents

He give it up and not even for army, he just doesn't care that much for it.

 

This is for book Jon and not show Jon.

Well, I think she gets those visions about Westeros and its kings, because she claims it as hers. And once she gets there the country will be divided and damaged by all these conflicts and atrocitties and breaking of taboo. She gets these visions because she will have deal with the consequences.

Funnily enough, I have also seen people suggest that the king with a wolf's head is future!Jon as the new KitN. I'm not sure I believe it, but is not totally out of the realm of possibility.

I don't think I overcomplicate it. I simply look at it from another perspective. The bride of fire set of visions refers directly to Daenerys. I have no idea how can Rhaegar and Lyanna's feelings towards each other make her the bride of fire. How are their feelings even relevant? They may have loved each other, but that has had zero influence on Jon's life. It did not form him. He does not even know he's their son. So why should his unknown parents' feelings about each other be relevant as a descriptor of him? It's like if Jon had a vision of Dany and it showed a dragon tearing shit up, and people claimed that it referrs to Aerys raping Rhaella instead of Dany fighting her enemies.

I don't really think of Jon as a dragon, at least not yet. GRRM made him metatextually a wolf, and D&D still keep to that as well (the White Wolf stuff). I think that he may very well be regarded as a dragon one day, but a dragon of a different kind. An ice dragon. That may sound a bit out there, but please bear with me. We've seen Dany and we've seen Egg very up close, and Jon's nothing like them. He doesn't share their fondness for extreme heat nor fascination with dragons. I think he's too much Ice (and Stark) oriented to ever be like them. So, in my mind, he may be Dany's family, but he's still going to be very different from her.

I don't believe that Dany wanting to be the sole queen makes her like Aerys. In that case, Aegon the Conqueror was like Aerys. Or Queen Nymeria. She was a foreign princess that came to Dorne (which at that point still consisted of several independent warring kingdoms) with a foreign army and foreign ideas and she forged the divided land into one kigdom that she ruled. In any case, wanting to be/remain the king was the last of Aerys' faults. And as for Rhaegar... he fought for his father, did he not? He may have believed that Aerys was a bad king, but he still saw saving the Targaryen monarchy as the more important thing. On the whole, I think that this talk of Dany's goal to become queen of making her more like Aerys and less like Rhaegar is out of place, since it does not jive with the characters nor the reality of their world.

If she doesn't press others to bend the knee and recognize her as their Queen, she should have not even bothered to make it to Westeros.

Nevertheless, I think that Dany would be quite open to making Jon a king by her side. In the books Hizdahr was granted the title of king, while in the Dance of the Dragons Prince Daemon as Rhaenyra's husband remained a prince.

 

[Lysander]

I'd like to point out that the vision of the Red Wedding was part of a sequence where Dany was randomly walking by rooms in the HotU, just like the rat-men and beautiful woman vision. It makes sense that she'd see something related to the big picture in Westeros, but has no impact on her personally. 

However, the bride of fire prophecy is part of a sequence where the Undying are addressing Dany specifically, and are explaining her destiny to her, specifically. The blue flower vision is supposed to help her understand the "three fires must you light" set of prophecies. There's no other reasonable way to interpret the three visions that go along with the bride of fire prophecy, as Dany herself is the bride of fire, and the three visions are part of her destiny. 

All the blue flower means is that a remnant of Lyanna Stark is currently at the Wall, meaning Jon. Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship (being that they're both dead) only pertain to Dany insofar as their union produced Dany's last living relative and final husband. And yes, "filling the air with sweetness" does give it a bit of a romantic tint. 

[Le Cygne]

butterbumps! interpretation is reasonable: