Dany+Tyrion=Love?

[Le Cygne]

3 hours ago, Rhollo said:

The one where he quite well points out their (esp. Dany's) hypocracy concerning violence, condemning the tradition of the fighting pits (even when the men competing there are volunteers) as barbaric, all while counquering a foreign culture (with an army of freed slaves who are now continue their violent profession voluntarily, oh the irony) and Dany within the last few weeks having people publicly executed, others burned in her basement and forcing him to marry her under threat of death.

I think hating him for that is protagonist bias, e.g. he comes off as an asshole, simply because he disagreed with Dany & Tyrion.

True, he seemed quite the victim on the show.

[lojzelote]

9 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

butterbumps! interpretation is reasonable:

 

 

I'd be very thankful if you linked that quote as per your previous post on this thread. Would you be so very kind? Thanks in advance.

Until then, I remain convinced that the big plot points that happen in the show happen happen in the books as well. The show has revealed plot developments that I hate as well - especially the whole mentally time travelling Bran thing, as I believe it has a true potential of undermining the cause and effect of events, and with it the entire story, but rereading some passages I have realized there are clues for it. It makes no matter if I like it or not, it is now part of the story. It would childish to claim otherwise.

[MoIaF]

1 hour ago, lojzelote said:

I'd be very thankful if you linked that quote as per your previous post on this thread. Would you be so very kind? Thanks in advance.

Until then, I remain convinced that the big plot points that happen in the show happen happen in the books as well. The show has revealed plot developments that I hate as well - especially the whole mentally time travelling Bran thing, as I believe it has a true potential of undermining the cause and effect of events, and with it the entire story, but rereading some passages I have realized there are clues for it. It makes no matter if I like it or not, it is now part of the story. It would childish to claim otherwise.

Well, this is from yesterday from GRRM's blog

http://grrm.livejournal.com/541795.html?thread=26242403#t26242403

Quote

WINDS will be different in some ways, but will parallel the show in others. At this point, there are probably a dozen characters who are dead on the show but alive in the books, so it would be impossible for the two to remain the same. (Also, of course, there are characters in the books who have never even existed on the show, like Victarion Greyjoy, Jon Connington, Penny, Arianne Martell... )

Clearly the arcs of some of the minor characters has changed but the books and shows continue along the same trajectory even if a bit deviated. 

[Le Cygne]

Arianne is not a minor character. Here's the context:

Q - I'm sorry but... I don't like "Game of Thrones", I know that the show is the show and your books are your books, but I don't like it. Please, tell me that TWOW will diverge from the show in terms of storylines...

A - WINDS will be different in some ways, but will parallel the show in others. At this point, there are probably a dozen characters who are dead on the show but alive in the books, so it would be impossible for the two to remain the same. (Also, of course, there are characters in the books who have never even existed on the show, like Victarion Greyjoy, Jon Connington, Penny, Arianne Martell... )

So:

• some things are the same
• some things are different
• it's not even possible to be the same

Maybe he tells a fantastic story that we all love in the books, we have to wait and see.

[Le Cygne]

Benioff: We’ve had a lot of conversations with George, and he makes a lot of stuff up as he’s writing it. Even while we talk to him about the ending, it doesn’t mean that that ending that he has currently conceived is going to be the ending when he eventually writes it.

Weiss: He figures a lot of this stuff as he goes. He always says he’s a gardener, not an architect.

http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/game-of-thrones-ending-season-5-producers-interview-1201469516/

[Lysander]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

True, he seemed quite the victim on the show.

Lol, "victim". It's hard to feel too sorry for someone who, for most of his life, was complicit in the systemic abuse and exploitation of a whole class of people. I feel a lot more sorry for people like Grey Worm, who lost their homes, identities and body parts to the Master's greed. 

No revolution was ever bloodshed-free. Considering how extreme the violence committed against the slaves was, I don't fault Dany or the freedmen for fighting tooth and nail to keep Meereen from sliding back into that system. If some Masters had to die painfully for the slaves to be free and to keep the Sons of the Harpy at bay, I consider it a fair trade off. 

To bring it back on topic, I think Tyrion's brief stint as a slave is important for that reason. So he can feel, in a visceral way, what Dany's fight was about and why so many people are willing to follow her.  

[MoIaF]

53 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Benioff: We’ve had a lot of conversations with George, and he makes a lot of stuff up as he’s writing it. Even while we talk to him about the ending, it doesn’t mean that that ending that he has currently conceived is going to be the ending when he eventually writes it.

Weiss: He figures a lot of this stuff as he goes. He always says he’s a gardener, not an architect.

http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/game-of-thrones-ending-season-5-producers-interview-1201469516/

For certain, GRRM has said that he's a gardener and that's how he writes his books. But he's also stated in numerous occasion that he knows what the ending will be for the major protagonist (Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Bran, Arya and Sansa) and has related this to D&D, as per the quote above. 

As he said two years ago:

Quote

Martin and “Game of Thrones'” showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss previously shared that they know how the series will conclude. The “ASoIaF” author has reiterated on numerous occasions that the intent is to bring both stories to an end in the same way.

“Yes, more and more, they differ. Two roads diverging in the dark of the woods, I suppose … but all of us are still intending that at the end we will arrive at the same place,” Martin wrote in May on his Livejournal blog. “In the meantime, we hope that the readers and viewers both enjoy the journey. Or journeys, as the case may be. Sometimes butterflies grow into dragons.”

And I don't see how anything has changed since then. The details might be different but the broad strokes remain the same. 

[MoIaF]

47 minutes ago, Lysander said:

Lol, "victim". It's hard to feel too sorry for someone who, for most of his life, was complicit in the systemic abuse and exploitation of a whole class of people. I feel a lot more sorry for people like Grey Worm, who lost their homes, identities and body parts to the Master's greed. 

No revolution was ever bloodshed-free. Considering how extreme the violence committed against the slaves was, I don't fault Dany or the freedmen for fighting tooth and nail to keep Meereen from sliding back into that system. If some Masters had to die painfully for the slaves to be free and to keep the Sons of the Harpy at bay, I consider it a fair trade off. 

To bring it back on topic, I think Tyrion's brief stint as a slave is important for that reason. So he can feel, in a visceral way, what Dany's fight was about and why so many people are willing to follow her.  

I always found it ironic that in the books he sort of defends the slaver's without realizing that Dany saved hi s life at the fighting pits. Had she not intervened he would have been eaten by a lion. 

As for the topic, I think he might have a sort of crush but I don't think or I hope he's smart enough to realize it's probably not going to be reciprocal on her part. It would be sad if he becomes bitter about it as he has in the past as Dany is one of the few people he's met who respects him for who he is and appreciates his talents. 

[RUSSELL BELL]

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Arianne is not a minor character. Here's the context:

Q - I'm sorry but... I don't like "Game of Thrones", I know that the show is the show and your books are your books, but I don't like it. Please, tell me that TWOW will diverge from the show in terms of storylines...

A - WINDS will be different in some ways, but will parallel the show in others. At this point, there are probably a dozen characters who are dead on the show but alive in the books, so it would be impossible for the two to remain the same. (Also, of course, there are characters in the books who have never even existed on the show, like Victarion Greyjoy, Jon Connington, Penny, Arianne Martell... )

So:

• some things are the same
• some things are different
• it's not even possible to be the same

Maybe he tells a fantastic story that we all love in the books, we have to wait and see.

Was this a Q&A with George himself? Pls can you post a link to the interview?

[Le Cygne]

Here you go: http://grrm.livejournal.com/541795.html?thread=26239843#t26239843

[Meera of Tarth]

On 8/7/2017 at 9:35 PM, teej6 said:

Thanks for the link. I still remain unconvinced and feel the evidence for a romance between Jon and Dany to be fairly thin. Why if one tries hard enough, you can find clues for almost anything in the books. I can't say it's entirely impossible though and if they do end up together, Jon would do it out of a sense of duty and not for love. Dany, IMO, is not Jon's type. And, Val is nothing like Dany. 

I don't see the foreshadowing either. 

[Rhollo]

14 hours ago, Lysander said:

Lol, "victim". It's hard to feel too sorry for someone who, for most of his life, was complicit in the systemic abuse and exploitation of a whole class of people. I feel a lot more sorry for people like Grey Worm, who lost their homes, identities and body parts to the Master's greed. 

No revolution was ever bloodshed-free. Considering how extreme the violence committed against the slaves was, I don't fault Dany or the freedmen for fighting tooth and nail to keep Meereen from sliding back into that system. If some Masters had to die painfully for the slaves to be free and to keep the Sons of the Harpy at bay, I consider it a fair trade off. 

Being a victim doesn't mean being innocent. Just look a Theon.

And Hizdahr didn't critizise Dany for her violence (In fact, he himself pointed out the necessity of it in "achieving great things"), but her hypocracy about it, when it didn't serve her needs.

[Lord Friendzone]

16 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I don't see the foreshadowing either. 

Because you're ignoring it. There's plenty of it in the boks on the show but naysers will still go on about there is not or very little evidence.

20 hours ago, MoIaF said:

Well, this is from yesterday from GRRM's blog

http://grrm.livejournal.com/541795.html?thread=26242403#t26242403

Clearly the arcs of some of the minor characters has changed but the books and shows continue along the same trajectory even if a bit deviated. 

I think some arcs even for bigger characters will look a bit differently Jon, Sansa or Arya.

[Lord Friendzone]

@butterbumps! idea of HOTU visions is certainly interesting but still evidence points more towards this referring to husbands or at least something that connect them to a specific men. Silver to Drogo, Drogon to Hizdar, Ghost to Jon. Just choosing A Blue Flower we know what it means in regards to Lyanna, who was at the Wall during that vision - show did a different version by including Drogo and Rhaego Beyond the Wall.

On 10. 7. 2017 at 1:29 PM, lojzelote said:

Well, I think she gets those visions about Westeros and its kings, because she claims it as hers. And once she gets there the country will be divided and damaged by all these conflicts and atrocitties and breaking of taboo. She gets these visions because she will have deal with the consequences.

Red Wedding really doesn't impact her that for her to se it, she'll meet Stannis, Faegon or Jon but this events really is not concerning her.

Quote

Funnily enough, I have also seen people suggest that the king with a wolf's head is future!Jon as the new KitN. I'm not sure I believe it, but is not totally out of the realm of possibility.

Considering that it mirrored the way Robb's body and Grey Wind's head on it, I'd bet on him. Some people think it was Bran but Robb seems as the most likely candidate. Usually, in these visions characters do not repeat themselves in various visions. I think the connection to Jon in this what people think that Ghost is a mute wolf, and in this vision also been mentioned mute wolf King.

Quote

I don't think I overcomplicate it. I simply look at it from another perspective. The bride of fire set of visions refers directly to Daenerys. I have no idea how can Rhaegar and Lyanna's feelings towards each other make her the bride of fire. How are their feelings even relevant? They may have loved each other, but that has had zero influence on Jon's life. It did not form him. He does not even know he's their son. So why should his unknown parents' feelings about each other be relevant as a descriptor of him? It's like if Jon had a vision of Dany and it showed a dragon tearing shit up, and people claimed that it referrs to Aerys raping Rhaella instead of Dany fighting her enemies.

Air smell sweetness ... not only her feelings for Jon but also in a way the true nature of his parentage. A Blue Rose clearly symbolizes Jon and his connection to her.

The nature of their relationship will have a pretty big impact on him and her. Rape vs love. Also might mirror Jon and Dany. Hidden meanings could be there.

It's like you're relegating them to some stand in for Rhaegar and Lyanna, when their dynamic is entirely different, purpose and Jon arguably is more in personality like Rhaegar than Lyanna. It almost looks like Jon is the damsel in distress here, sitting in the tower. While Lyanna was a wild, she was basically damsel in distress later on.

Quote

I don't really think of Jon as a dragon, at least not yet. GRRM made him metatextually a wolf, and D&D still keep to that as well (the White Wolf stuff). I think that he may very well be regarded as a dragon one day, but a dragon of a different kind. An ice dragon. That may sound a bit out there, but please bear with me. We've seen Dany and we've seen Egg very up close, and Jon's nothing like them. He doesn't share their fondness for extreme heat nor fascination with dragons. I think he's too much Ice (and Stark) oriented to ever be like them. So, in my mind, he may be Dany's family, but he's still going to be very different from her.

Important part is yet. He has to connect and discover his other part of his heritage. His heritage just does not serve as only for Dany to have someone or Jon to be all angsty. This has to have a pretty important importance to the overall plot. Tyrion shares fascination with dragons but he's no Targaryen, Dany is a freak of nature. Rhaegar who had no dragons or fascinations of them considered himself to be The Last Dragon.

So, no people ignoring he's Targ and mostly Stark and all that. He behaves a lot like Rhaegar who was a Targ, he has their name, blood  and We've been thought over and over again he's no Stark in the books, how many times Jon said this and this will probably be part of his bittersweet ending. Knowing the truth, but realizing he's no Stark. He always wanted to be a Stark but realizing he's not is what will be pretty important.

 

Quote

I don't believe that Dany wanting to be the sole queen makes her like Aerys. In that case, Aegon the Conqueror was like Aerys. Or Queen Nymeria. She was a foreign princess that came to Dorne (which at that point still consisted of several independent warring kingdoms) with a foreign army and foreign ideas and she forged the divided land into one kigdom that she ruled. In any case, wanting to be/remain the king was the last of Aerys' faults. And as for Rhaegar... he fought for his father, did he not? He may have believed that Aerys was a bad king, but he still saw saving the Targaryen monarchy as the more important thing. On the whole, I think that this talk of Dany's goal to become queen of making her more like Aerys and less like Rhaegar is out of place, since it does not jive with the characters nor the reality of their world.

If she doesn't press others to bend the knee and recognize her as their Queen, she should have not even bothered to make it to Westeros.

I meant that they're showing Aerys madness and hinting with Dany will she or won't she? Not a way of ruling. She's being constantly being reminded of Aerys' crimes and that is fine but they're pushing into the territory of possibility ... when we know they will not go there. It's just a cheap drama plot point.

As for bending the knee. Why not demanding the same from Yara? I understand Iron Islands are smaller than the North and strategic value is smaller but rules are supposed be same for everyone. Not to mention her wish to marry a King, here we have KITN and their alliance would serve politically as the best from her point of view, but they want to show who is the dominant. You see, show Jon doesn't care for power unlike book Jon who is a bit more ambitious. This is why I've mentioned

Spoiler

him kneeling or vocally pledging  for her.

 

Quote

 

Nevertheless, I think that Dany would be quite open to making Jon a king by her side. In the books Hizdahr was granted the title of king, while in the Dance of the Dragons Prince Daemon as Rhaenyra's husband remained a prince.

Spoiler

First of all why not making it in the next season.

Another point is, would even Jon be interested in it? I have my doubts because the iron throne was never his goal in the books or on the show.

The only way and mainly speaking of show Jon on how to be  King is if people pushed him into it because there is no another better alternative. I've heard theories Dany will make him legit, Dany will make him King, Dany do this or that but this is not his story to rely one someone else being generous. He had an offer from Stannis but felt like he wouldn't earned on the show like that. When people as Night's Watch Brothers and Northern lords choose him to be their leader, he accepted it.

[Meera of Tarth]

2 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Because you're ignoring it. There's plenty of it in the boks on the show but naysers will still go on about there is not or very little evidence.

I think some arcs even for bigger characters will look a bit differently Jon, Sansa or Arya.

Sorry but I'm not ignoring it. Apart from the "parallel arcs" of the exiled hero they have nothing in common. As for foreshadowing that they will love eachother I see zero indications in the books or in the show, and that "blue rose" in the HOTU visions (which is object of debate) could be the only one I could buy at most (and I don't see it as indication that they will be in love, but that they'd marry if anything.. ). So no, there is no plenty of evidence.

[Meera of Tarth]

33 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

As for bending the knee. Why not demanding the same from Yara? I understand Iron Islands are smaller than the North and strategic value is smaller but rules are supposed be same for everyone.

She can't bend the knee because she is a woman. Women don't bend the knee in thrones (unless they are Sansa).

[Lord Friendzone]

2 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Sorry but I'm not ignoring it.

Yes you are because you dislike this.

Quote

Apart from the "parallel arcs" of the exiled hero they have nothing in common. As for foreshadowing that they will love eachother I see zero indications in the books or in the show, and that "blue rose" in the HOTU visions (which is object of debate) could be the only one I could buy at most (and I don't see it as indication that they will be in love, but that they'd marry if anything.. ).

Then what a blue rose stands for if not Jon? How else to define sweatness that is positive? How else define that this is what Dany will experience? You're saying there no hints or this or that is not true and yet no other alternative. Just what we've been hearing for years this is not tue, not gonna happen or its only on the show.

Show went even further with it ever since season one cinamtic choices, scenes, literally Mhysa, resurrection, both lovers dying in their arms, banishing their advisors or death of their advisors.

Quote

So no, there is no plenty of evidence.

http://oadara.tumblr.com/post/153039181416/daenerys-jon-snow-asoiaf-foreshadowing-v2

[Meera of Tarth]

8 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Yes you are because you dislike this.

Then what a blue rose stands for if not Jon? How else to define sweatness that is positive? How else define that this is what Dany will experience? You're saying there no hints or this or that is not true and yet no other alternative. Just what we've been hearing for years this is not tue, not gonna happen or its only on the show.

I dislike this, but that doesn't mean that if there were plenty of evidence I'd deny the possibility of it.

Blue rose? Possibility of marrying, the fact that it's the description of Jon as the third husband who is the product of a hidden/non-accepted but real ("sweet") love, or the meanings that have been brought up in the last pages of this thread.

Quote

 

Show went even further with it ever since season one cinamtic choices, scenes, literally Mhysa, resurrection, both lovers dying in their arms, banishing their advisors or death of their advisors.

http://oadara.tumblr.com/post/153039181416/daenerys-jon-snow-asoiaf-foreshadowing-v2

 

 

Resurrection only happened to Jon as I can recall Both lovers dying in their arms...ineteresting...it's also true that Jaime thinks of it in another scene....

Pale hair in the moonlight when describing VAL is not something I can buy as JONERYS , sorry.

[lojzelote]

2 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

him kneeling or vocally pledging  for her.

  Reveal hidden contents

First of all why not making it in the next season.

 

Dany is a freak among the Targaryens? From what we see of the Targaryens, all of them are completely smitten with the idea of dragons.

Maester Aemon to Sam:

Quote

I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and their dreams killed them, every one.

We now that is true. Daeron the Drunken dreamt of that with such intensity it drove him to distraction (ie, drinking and whoring) that led him to pox that led him to death. Aerion believed them drinking wildfyre will transform him into a dragon. Egg died in the tragedy of Summerhall trying to hatch dragon eggs.

From D&E:

Quote

"I'm not stupid, ser." Egg lowered his voice. "Someday the dragons will return. My brother Daeron's dreamed of it, and King Aerys read it in a prophecy. Maybe it will be my egg that hatches. That would be splendid."

"Would it?" Dunk had his doubts.

Not Egg. "Aemon and I used to pretend that our eggs would be the ones to hatch. If they did, we could fly through the sky on dragonback, like the first Aegon and his sisters."

Quote

Maybe when they reached the stream he'd have a soak. He smiled, thinking how good that would feel, to jump right in and come up sopping wet and grinning, with water cascading down his cheeks and through his tangled hair and his tunic clinging sodden to his skin. Egg might want a soak as well, though the boy looked cool and dry, more dusty than sweaty. He never sweated much. He liked the heat. In Dorne he went about bare-chested, and turned brown as a Dornishman. It is his dragon blood, Dunk told himself.

Quote

Dunk stepped into the tub and eased himself down until the water covered him up to his chin. It was still scalding hot on top, though cooler farther down. He clenched his teeth to keep from yelping. If he did the boy would laugh. Egg liked his bathwater scalding hot.

Love for heat and dragon dreams seem to be the norm. It's certainly not just Dany, because Egg's case was very similar, although he failed and she succeeded.

Of course, this is different in the show that has made Dany fire-proof rather than heat-resistant. (Though to be fair, when asked if Dany will ever repeat her miraculous fire immunity trick, GRRM didn't answer a clear cut no, but only a "probably not". So book-wise it is very unlikely, but not totally impossible? I guess.)

For that matter, we have no idea what Rhaegar thought of dragons. In fact, all we know of Rhaegar is that he was introverted and probably a little bit of a perfectionist and a big bit of a bookworm, greatly interested in prophecies, and a gifted musician that played his harp for audience. He was not overly interested in martial arts. He became a fighter because he saw it as his duty. He was used to disappearing for days to squat at Summerhall and compose sad songs. He came across as someone who couldn't ever become happy. I must say, none of that sounds to me like Jon. (Neither like Dany btw.)

I think that Jon's story is about realizing he's a Snow, but that is nothing to be ashamed of. He can be great no matter what his last name is. It would be sad if he didn't realize it because being a Snow is a fundamental part of his identity. I always roll my eyes at threads "What's Jon's real name?" Jon's real name is Jon. It doesn't matter what two long dead had meant to call him. He lived the life of Jon Snow, not Jon Stark or Prince Whateverthef*ck Targaryen. I think that in the books he will call himself Jon Stark for a time, but come to realize that he still thinks of himself as Jon Snow anyway. In the show they didn't even bother with a name change. He's KitN, although he's a Snow.

On the Dany-Yara allience: Because Yara is one of her first allies in Westeros? She may have felt she needed an ally in Westeros that helps her to fight the other kingdoms. Anyway, the point is that if she granted requests like that to everybody, she could have indeed stayed in Meereen, because this she wouldn't ever become queen of anything.

[lojzelote]

24 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

 

Well, Meera. D&D are still keeping the broad strokes of GRRM's story, so it seems that either GRRM is a writer that sucks at foreshadowing or you and some other readers just aren't very good picking up on it. Or a combination thereof.

Anyway, even if a vision has multiple possible explanations, only the one that becomes canon is the real deal, no matter how much you would prefer any of the other ones. I have started reading this board nearly seven years ago, and already there has been much widespread speculation about Jon and Dany becoming a thing based on the books alone. That to me suggests there are clues and many people are able to recognize them. It's certainly not something people believe only because of D&D.