The Fattest Leech

Nymeria is poised to return

116 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Great posts!  I haven't yet gotten to Val entering the story on my second read, but I'll be watching for all this.  ^_^

I hope I didn't spoil anything for you :blink:

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

It just got me thinking when you talked about Jon cutting off the independent territory of the North at the Neck.  The North would still have potential relationships to their immediate south.  As you mentioned Arya possibly being a leader of her own pack and possibly located around the Riverlands or Riverrun, but also Sansa is now in connection with the Vale and the whole possible Vale lords conspiring to bring down Littlefinger and there is suspicion they know who Alayne really is.  The knights of the Vale have yet to be touched by the wars and will likely be an important addition to turn the tide.  Plus the Rhoyces have ties to the Starks and First Men in the past through marriage.  Also, I read a post where Sansa has been connected to bats (sigil of House Whent) through Catelyn's mother, Whent's being the former lords of Harrenhal.  Harrenhal belonging now to Littlefinger, her "father."  Sansa was described as a "wolf with bat wings" after fleeing the purple wedding.  There's a whole post detailing the Whent / Harrenhal / bat connection that describes it way better than I can.  Harrenhal is the original seat of kings and may be again later.  Northern culture may spread to almost half the realm in the end.   

 This is kinda what I was thinking as well as far as associations with his sisters and their ruling territories. I really feel the story is moving in that direction.

I think I know the Sansa/bat thread? I may have posted there myself a few months back. Yes, oh, yes. I see some symbolism between Sansa and flight (as many do) but especially the bat. I used to read over Sansa's chapters quickly without much thought because they seemed "slow". Funny enough, it was only after having to defend Sansa so much that I did my re-reads with her and discovered a lot more about her with the quotes and links I had to find. So, thank you Sansa naysayers! :lol: But seriously, I am excited to read her next phase in the books.

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Also with Arya marrying a king... maybe not a literal king, but someone with king's blood.  I'll just leave it at that :P

 

     

I get ya, I do :P

7 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

All I can say is that I simply love your anamysis which becames better and better in every post. I am not good enough to help or even comment with something useful, so all I can do is :bowdown:

Tell your friends!!! :rofl:

Kidding. Thank you, I do appreciate it. This has certainly evolved with a ton more clues and links than I realized. I know my main post grew really long, and maybe a few of the follow up posts, but I had to get them out before I forgot them all.

Please do add anything or correct me if I goofed something up. There are so many details in this entire story that sometimes I forget things.

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5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I hope I didn't spoil anything for you :blink:

No, you didn't.  It's my second read.  I just didn't really understand a lot of things going on and how they fit together the first time.

 

5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I used to read over Sansa's chapters quickly without much thought because they seemed "slow". Funny enough, it was only after having to defend Sansa so much that I did my re-reads with her and discovered a lot more about her with the quotes and links I had to find. So, thank you Sansa naysayers! :lol: But seriously, I am excited to read her next phase in the books.

Exactly.  I completely got the Sansa chapters wrong my first read.  I didn't dislike her, I just didn't understand what was really going on.  The Sansa chapters, are a huge window into the subtle and larger political game going on, told by the "average person."  I think where a lot of people go wrong is the deliberate exploitation of our POV character bias by the author.  He sets us up early to view our first few POV characters:  Jon, Bran, Ned, Arya to be the "good guys," so whatever they say is truthful and right, and their perceptions are correct; therefore anyone at odds with or that disagrees with or is different from our "good guys" is therefore a "bad guy."  Sansa's chapters don't start until a bit further in after it's been established how different she is from Arya.  On a closer read, the sisters are not really at odds (they're pretty typical young siblings), they have complimentary virtues.  People around them with their own interests are usually the ones pointing out their differences and encouraging conflict on impressionable children.  (I'm looking at you, Septa Mordane! You too, Jeyne Poole!)  I am hoping that with foreshadowing of winding up in the same general region, the sisters will be fulfilling their complimentary roles:  Arya the sword arm and Sansa the shield.  Seriously, GRRM wrote in one "un-kiss" and now everything in the Sansa chapters is unreliable with some people.  I compare her to Sam in some ways.  He's so convinced he's a coward and a failure by everyone, he doesn't realize how brave and capable he actually is in action.  I think her time in the Vale and experiences from a "bastard's" point of view will actually make her realize her own worth as a "player," but in the sense of a force for good instead of selfishness.  Besides, it seems like the Alayne Stone scheme is now hanging by a thread and Petyr is close to being completely undone.

With years of war that hit the hardest in the North and Riverlands plus winter setting in, I think we're going to be looking at tremendous social upheaval.  Old houses will fall and new ones will rise up.  Old rules of succession may be bent if not broken and new blood gained by joining nobility to traditionally lower ranking upstarts may become the norm out of necessity to re-stabilize the region.  There's so much potential here for the game board to be reset, as you said with potential new stock of wildlings coming south.  I don't even think that means someone must become a literal king or queen to play a role in doing that.  I feel like a lesson of the books is that crowns don't imbue people with good governing abilities.  In fact, they often change people's priorities from the people they care about to having to always protect that metal circle from those seeking to take it.  Robb didn't choose the crown, but it was thrust upon him and it changed him not for the better.  Jon will probably face the same choice at some point.  A crown made Joffrey worse, Robert a drunken, pardoy of himself, caused serious entitlement and violence issues with Dany.  Seriously, crowns are poison.  I don't wish any of my favorite characters a crown.                  

 

          

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Why did Val react so terribly towards Shireen when she finds out about the greyscale?:

As I mentioned above, and many already know, Jon and Dany have a gazillion parallels since book 1 for obvious reasons.
However, I think this is also another difference in Daenerys and Nymeria and why Dany can't be her come again. One of the problems Nymeria and her people face is sickness... and yes, a major sickness is Greyscale and it is associated with the river Rhoyne.

  • The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships

    At Chroyane, the cage was hung from the walls, so that the prince might witness the enslavement of the women and children whose fathers and brothers had died in his gallant, hopeless war...but the prince, it is said, called down a curse upon the conquerors, entreating Mother Rhoyne to avenge her children. And so, that very night, the Rhoyne flooded out of season and with greater force than was known in living memory. A thick fog full of evil humors fell, and the Valyrian conquerors began to die of greyscale. (There is, at least, this much truth to the tale: in later centuries, Lomas Longstrider wrote of the drowned ruins of Chroyane, its foul fogs and waters, and the fact that wayward travelers infected with greyscale now haunt the ruins—a hazard for those who travel the river beneath the broken span of the Bridge of Dream.)
  • The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: Sothoryos

Whatever its true extent, the southern continent is an unhealthy place, its very air full of foul humors and miasmas. We have already seen how Nymeria fared on its shores, when she attempted to settle her people there. Blood boils, green fever, sweetrot, bronze pate, the Red Death, greyscale, brownleg, wormbone, sailor's bane, pus-eye, and yellowgum are only a few of the diseases found here, many so virulent that they have been known to wipe out whole settlements. Archmaester Ebrose's study of centuries of travelers' accounts suggests that nine of every ten men visiting Sothoryos from Westeros will suffer one or more of these afflictions, and that almost half will die.
 
What we do have is a potential greyscale bomb in the north via Shireen, the beloved princess of Stannis and readers alike. Greyscale loves cold, damp climates... like the north. Jon's reasoning that Shireen can't be a medical threat is that, "she seems sweet." Oh Jon, Jon, naive Jon. :bang:
 
As we all know, one of the major themes in Jon's arc is that "he knows nothing". Jon acts shocked that Val says Shireen should have been killed because of her sickness. However, Val has experience with greyscale, which can worsen into the grey plague, and Jon needs to learn this thing as he did with other issues. Val tells Jon he needs to learn, and then after the discussion Jon contemplates if Val is correct. He questions his own knowledge. You have to read the entire passage to get the full picture, so enjoy...
  • A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

    Once outside and well away from the queen's men, Val gave vent to her wroth. "You lied about her beard. That one has more hair on her chin than I have between my legs. And the daughter … her face …"
    "Greyscale."
    "The grey death is what we call it."
    "It is not always mortal in children."
    "North of the Wall it is. Hemlock is a sure cure, but a pillow or a blade will work as well. If I had given birth to that poor child, I would have given her the gift of mercy long ago."
    This was a Val that Jon had never seen before. "Princess Shireen is the queen's only child."
    "I pity both of them. The child is not clean."
    "If Stannis wins his war, Shireen will stand as heir to the Iron Throne."
    "Then I pity your Seven Kingdoms."
    "The maesters say greyscale is not—"
    "The maesters may believe what they wish. Ask a woods witch if you would know the truth. The grey death sleeps, only to wake again. The child is not clean!"
    "She seems a sweet girl. You cannot know—"
    "I can. You know nothing, Jon Snow." Val seized his arm. "I want the monster out of there. Him and his wet nurses. You cannot leave them in that same tower as the dead girl." "She is not dead."
    "She is. Her mother cannot see it. Nor you, it seems. Yet death is there." She walked away from him, stopped, turned back. "I brought you Tormund Giantsbane. Bring me my monster."
    "If I can, I will."
    "Do. You owe me a debt, Jon Snow."
    Jon watched her stride away. She is wrong. She must be wrong. Greyscale is not so deadly as she claims, not in children.
     
Right now in Meereen, and possibly with Daenerys on the Skahazadan if you are a believer in that theory, Dany is fighting the Pale Mare. Actually, at the moment Dany is not fighting any disease because Barristan is holding the fort down for her. Dany is not dealing with it as Nymeria did, someone else is. There is a great possibility that Viserion and Rhaegal may end up eating or burning the disease from the city (and maybe the city with it) while Dany is out with the Dothraki. Tyrion seems to be clear of greyscale. Jon Connington has brought it to Westeros in addition to the pale mare that has already been in King's Landing since ACOK after the riots.
 
Basically, Daenerys' dealing with sickness is not the same or similar and is being dealt with rather differently. This is common throughout the Jon/Dany parallels. Similar situation, handled very differently. Jon and Val have the same issue as Nymeria to deal with right now.
Edited by The Fattest Leech

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On 7/30/2016 at 10:41 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

It wasn't about you actually. I have seen way too many times the "Arya will be the Queen because Ned said so.” Which is practically wrong since Ned told that she will marry a King and not that she will be the Queen.

Indeed. I still am of the option that Arya after crossing off some names on her list will end up dying but living on in a second life in Nymeria. Varamyr Sixskins says a second life in a direwolf would be worthy of a king, or in this case worth of a queen. Also the line about Arya being frozen in the snow with Needle in her hand.

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Why did Val react so terribly towards Shireen when she finds out about the greyscale?:

As I mentioned above, and many already know, Jon and Dany have a gazillion parallels since book 1 for obvious reasons.
However, I think this is also another difference in Daenerys and Nymeria and why Dany can't be her come again. One of the problems Nymeria and her people face is sickness... and yes, a major sickness is Greyscale and it is associated with the river Rhoyne.

  • The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships

    At Chroyane, the cage was hung from the walls, so that the prince might witness the enslavement of the women and children whose fathers and brothers had died in his gallant, hopeless war...but the prince, it is said, called down a curse upon the conquerors, entreating Mother Rhoyne to avenge her children. And so, that very night, the Rhoyne flooded out of season and with greater force than was known in living memory. A thick fog full of evil humors fell, and the Valyrian conquerors began to die of greyscale. (There is, at least, this much truth to the tale: in later centuries, Lomas Longstrider wrote of the drowned ruins of Chroyane, its foul fogs and waters, and the fact that wayward travelers infected with greyscale now haunt the ruins—a hazard for those who travel the river beneath the broken span of the Bridge of Dream.)
  • The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: Sothoryos

Whatever its true extent, the southern continent is an unhealthy place, its very air full of foul humors and miasmas. We have already seen how Nymeria fared on its shores, when she attempted to settle her people there. Blood boils, green fever, sweetrot, bronze pate, the Red Death, greyscale, brownleg, wormbone, sailor's bane, pus-eye, and yellowgum are only a few of the diseases found here, many so virulent that they have been known to wipe out whole settlements. Archmaester Ebrose's study of centuries of travelers' accounts suggests that nine of every ten men visiting Sothoryos from Westeros will suffer one or more of these afflictions, and that almost half will die.
 
What we do have is a potential greyscale bomb in the north via Shireen, the beloved princess of Stannis and readers alike. Greyscale loves cold, damp climates... like the north. Jon's reasoning that Shireen can't be a medical threat is that, "she seems sweet." Oh Jon, Jon, naive Jon. :bang:
 
As we all know, one of the major themes in Jon's arc is that "he knows nothing". Jon acts shocked that Val says Shireen should have been killed because of her sickness. However, Val has experience with greyscale, which can worsen into the grey plague, and Jon needs to learn this thing as he did with other issues. Val tells Jon he needs to learn, and then after the discussion Jon contemplates if Val is correct. He questions his own knowledge. You have to read the entire passage to get the full picture, so enjoy...
  • A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

    Once outside and well away from the queen's men, Val gave vent to her wroth. "You lied about her beard. That one has more hair on her chin than I have between my legs. And the daughter … her face …"
    "Greyscale."
    "The grey death is what we call it."
    "It is not always mortal in children."
    "North of the Wall it is. Hemlock is a sure cure, but a pillow or a blade will work as well. If I had given birth to that poor child, I would have given her the gift of mercy long ago."
    This was a Val that Jon had never seen before. "Princess Shireen is the queen's only child."
    "I pity both of them. The child is not clean."
    "If Stannis wins his war, Shireen will stand as heir to the Iron Throne."
    "Then I pity your Seven Kingdoms."
    "The maesters say greyscale is not—"
    "The maesters may believe what they wish. Ask a woods witch if you would know the truth. The grey death sleeps, only to wake again. The child is not clean!"
    "She seems a sweet girl. You cannot know—"
    "I can. You know nothing, Jon Snow." Val seized his arm. "I want the monster out of there. Him and his wet nurses. You cannot leave them in that same tower as the dead girl." "She is not dead."
    "She is. Her mother cannot see it. Nor you, it seems. Yet death is there." She walked away from him, stopped, turned back. "I brought you Tormund Giantsbane. Bring me my monster."
    "If I can, I will."
    "Do. You owe me a debt, Jon Snow."
    Jon watched her stride away. She is wrong. She must be wrong. Greyscale is not so deadly as she claims, not in children.
     
Right now in Meereen, and possibly with Daenerys on the Skahazadan if you are a believer in that theory, Dany is fighting the Pale Mare. Actually, at the moment Dany is not fighting any disease because Barristan is holding the fort down for her. Dany is not dealing with it as Nymeria did, someone else is. There is a great possibility that Viserion and Rhaegal may end up eating or burning the disease from the city (and maybe the city with it) while Dany is out with the Dothraki. Tyrion seems to be clear of greyscale. Jon Connington has brought it to Westeros in addition to the pale mare that has already been in King's Landing since ACOK after the riots.
 
Basically, Daenerys' dealing with sickness is not the same or similar and is being dealt with rather differently. This is common throughout the Jon/Dany parallels. Similar situation, handled very differently. Jon and Val have the same issue as Nymeria to deal with right now.

This thread has been an excellent read. I love the parallels and also seeing the grey plague unleashed in the north will allow Jon Snow to fulfill his historic namesake John Snow.

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@The Fattest Leech

... Predictably, I like the Val / Nymeria parallel very much. It's not always obvious which character is meant to be paralleled .. I suppose sometimes a name alone can be an identifier, but I think more often it's not. And sometimes the historic example can work in different ways for more than one character... So I say Val, yes .. but Dany, maybe in some ways, and maybe to a lesser degree. (This feeling might come as a result of my own long term predictions.) 

Instead of feeling  the continent may eventually be divided into two at the Neck, I think there may be a third area encompassing Dorne.. and I'm leaning toward not just Jon and Dany - separate but equal - but Jon / Dany / Tyrion ....??? (suggesting the 3 heads,and various Essosi triarchies - both obvious  and hidden.

I also like that you stressed The Importance of Second Act Introductions (in ASoS).. and I'd like to point out that Daario was introduced to Dany, while Val was introduced to Jon. I think he's much more important than many assume - more than an object of lust, and more than an opportunity for Dany to learn where to place her priorities. ... Sure, he is both, but that's not the whole story. 

Hidden because it's a digression..

I think he's Oberyn's son and the Martell/Targaryen marriage pact may yet come to be. I had completed 2 parts of a 4 parter just before the board changes were made, so I waited to see whether the thread would be lost, archived, or remain open after the switch. It stayed open , but then I hit my own mini-Meereenese knot - indecision over how, or in what order to present the reams of info for parts 3&4..and many distractions followed - threads on Tycho and Shadrich, and obsessively babbling on many Jon/Val threads and Jon is not dead threads, etc. (Did I mention it's-not-all-Bran- Bloodraven-is bloody-important ?  ) I've just gone back to sorting Daario out, and thank goodness I should still be able to bump up the original.

I completely agree on greyscale and.. @Lord Wraith ..your mention of historic John Snow is very cool.  ...   OK, we have greyscale occurring naturally(?) in Sothoryos... but Garin's curse (apparently) also had a complicating magical component, so finding a purely medical solution may not be possible ...Sounds like a job for someone good at thinking outside the box and having magic on his/her side... Who could that be?  ;)   ... Or, will it take more than one character in co-operation ?

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7 hours ago, bemused said:

 

I also like that you stressed The Importance of Second Act Introductions (in ASoS).. and I'd like to point out that Daario was introduced to Dany, while Val was introduced to Jon. I think he's much more important than many assume - more than an object of lust, and more than an opportunity for Dany to learn where to place her priorities. ... Sure, he is both, but that's not the whole story. 

Hidden because it's a digression..

 

  Hide contents

I think he's Oberyn's son and the Martell/Targaryen marriage pact may yet come to be. I had completed 2 parts of a 4 parter just before the board changes were made, so I waited to see whether the thread would be lost, archived, or remain open after the switch. It stayed open , but then I hit my own mini-Meereenese knot - indecision over how, or in what order to present the reams of info for parts 3&4..and many distractions followed - threads on Tycho and Shadrich, and obsessively babbling on many Jon/Val threads and Jon is not dead threads, etc. (Did I mention it's-not-all-Bran- Bloodraven-is bloody-important ?  ) I've just gone back to sorting Daario out, and thank goodness I should still be able to bump up the original.

 

I completely agree on greyscale and.. @Lord Wraith ..your mention of historic John Snow is very cool.  ...   OK, we have greyscale occurring naturally(?) in Sothoryos... but Garin's curse (apparently) also had a complicating magical component, so finding a purely medical solution may not be possible ...Sounds like a job for someone good at thinking outside the box and having magic on his/her side... Who could that be?  ;)   ... Or, will it take more than one character in co-operation ?

Hidden because continued digression:

Spoiler

I have a rather tinfoily idea that Daario is the real Quentyn Martell and not the son of Oberyn. I figured that Doran did a switch at the Water Gardens and gave the Yronwoods a kid that looked similar to him. The real Quentyn left Dorne with Mellario and was in Norvosh before joining the Storm Crows, which could have been Oberyn's company.

The historic John Snow is what makes me think there will be some kind of outbreak in Westeros. Besides its not like they have enough problems to deal with.

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19 hours ago, bemused said:

@The Fattest Leech

... Predictably, I like the Val / Nymeria parallel very much. It's not always obvious which character is meant to be paralleled .. I suppose sometimes a name alone can be an identifier, but I think more often it's not. And sometimes the historic example can work in different ways for more than one character... So I say Val, yes .. but Dany, maybe in some ways, and maybe to a lesser degree. (This feeling might come as a result of my own long term predictions.) 

I totally agree that some aspects can fit other characters in general ways. No doubt about that. Every character can be strung together with a few common threads, but it is the broader picture that truly links the two.

19 hours ago, bemused said:

Instead of feeling  the continent may eventually be divided into two at the Neck, I think there may be a third area encompassing Dorne.. and I'm leaning toward not just Jon and Dany - separate but equal - but Jon / Dany / Tyrion ....??? (suggesting the 3 heads,and various Essosi triarchies - both obvious  and hidden.

I like this idea. There could be some good golden nuggets to this theory. The three heads of Westeros? I won't tell you to start a thread about it, I would like to, but I won't ;)

19 hours ago, bemused said:

I also like that you stressed The Importance of Second Act Introductions (in ASoS).. and I'd like to point out that Daario was introduced to Dany, while Val was introduced to Jon. I think he's much more important than many assume - more than an object of lust, and more than an opportunity for Dany to learn where to place her priorities. ... Sure, he is both, but that's not the whole story. 

I have tried explaining this to posters on other threads, but many swear that what we see is what we get. There are many characters that did not exist until book 2, then 3, then 4 and so on.

New characters are introduced when the main's need them. I have often thought about the parallel to when Daario and Val were both introduced. Jon and Dany have an obviously similar path and challenges, but they handle each challenge differently and that is how they are sculpting their personal characters now, and how they will differ as well.

19 hours ago, bemused said:

Hidden because it's a digression..

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I think he's Oberyn's son and the Martell/Targaryen marriage pact may yet come to be. I had completed 2 parts of a 4 parter just before the board changes were made, so I waited to see whether the thread would be lost, archived, or remain open after the switch. It stayed open , but then I hit my own mini-Meereenese knot - indecision over how, or in what order to present the reams of info for parts 3&4..and many distractions followed - threads on Tycho and Shadrich, and obsessively babbling on many Jon/Val threads and Jon is not dead threads, etc. (Did I mention it's-not-all-Bran- Bloodraven-is bloody-important ?  ) I've just gone back to sorting Daario out, and thank goodness I should still be able to bump up the original.

Um, I like this digression. And dear me, I have noooo idea what you mean by babbling on about other characters in other threads ^_^

Of course I do the same, but I can excuse myslef because as much as I love Jon and Val and Arya and Bran and Bloodraven, I know there are other people who are contributing to the the show and to understand the finale, you have to follow through every act.

12 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Hidden because continued digression:

  Reveal hidden contents

I have a rather tinfoily idea that Daario is the real Quentyn Martell and not the son of Oberyn. I figured that Doran did a switch at the Water Gardens and gave the Yronwoods a kid that looked similar to him. The real Quentyn left Dorne with Mellario and was in Norvosh before joining the Storm Crows, which could have been Oberyn's company.

The historic John Snow is what makes me think there will be some kind of outbreak in Westeros. Besides its not like they have enough problems to deal with.

Re: the hidden. Ok, it seems a few of us have these similar ideas and they should be shared on a thread. Many people disregard the importance of Dorne and I think this could shed some light on that dark stage. (ok, theatre analogies over)

The historic John Snow is a nice touch. We are definitely being set up for an outbreak in Westeros. It is a good thing there will be an influx of people that will have experience with this disease :D

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Ok. I have another connection to Jon and the wildlings and his third "knowing" eye opening.

  • Clash- Jon VII:

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him. (this is Bran reaching to touch Jon when Jon was in a time of need just as Bran did with Theon at Winterfell when Theon was before the heart tree asking for mercy.)

And suddenly he was back in the mountains, his paws sunk deep in a drift of snow as he stood upon the edge of a great precipice. Before him the Skirling Pass opened up into airy emptiness, and a long vee-shaped valley lay spread beneath him like a quilt, awash in all the colors of an autumn afternoon.
 
A vast blue-white wall plugged one end of the vale, squeezing between the mountains as if it had shouldered them aside, and for a moment he thought he had dreamed himself back to Castle Black. Then he realized he was looking at a river of ice several thousand feet high. Under that glittering cold cliff was a great lake, its deep cobalt waters reflecting the snowcapped peaks that ringed it. There were men down in the valley, he saw now; many men, thousands, a huge host. Some were tearing great holes in the half-frozen ground, while others trained for war. He watched as a swarming mass of riders charged a shield wall, astride horses no larger than ants. The sound of their mock battle was a rustling of steel leaves, drifting faintly on the wind. Their encampment had no plan to it; he saw no ditches, no sharpened stakes, no neat rows of horse lines. Everywhere crude earthen shelters and hide tents sprouted haphazardly, like a pox on the face of the earth. He spied untidy mounds of hay, smelled goats and sheep, horses and pigs, dogs in great profusion. Tendrils of dark smoke rose from a thousand cookfires.
 
Jon is having a moment with the old gods and it goes so far as being touched on the forehead (anointed?) to waken and the first thing Jon sees is the wildling camp... below a river and there are thousands. Sounds again like the historical Nymeria migration.
*Jon is chosen by the old gods to help save them*
 
Jon also notes that there are hide tents down there. The first tent Jon goes to when he finally makes it there is to Mance's tent... where he first meets Val. This is the very first thing that happens to Jon in the beginning of Storm in Jon's first chapter.
  • A Storm of Swords - Jon I

There was no doubting which tent was the king's. It was thrice the size of the next largest he'd seen, and he could hear music drifting from within. Like many of the lesser tents it was made of sewn hides with the fur still on, but Mance Rayder's hides were the shaggy white pelts of snow bears. The peaked roof was crowned with a huge set of antlers from one of the giant elks that had once roamed freely throughout the Seven Kingdoms, in the times of the First Men.
  • A Storm of Swords - Jon I

    "That sounds more like me," said Tormund. "Well met, Jon Snow. I am fond o' wargs, as it happens, though not o' Starks."
    "The good woman at the brazier," Mance Rayder went on, "is Dalla." The pregnant woman smiled shyly. "Treat her like you would any queen, she is carrying my child." He turned to the last two. "This beauty is her sister Val. Young Jarl beside her is her latest pet."

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I posted this a while ago in another thread and just came across it again and realized the links to Jon and the old gods/free folk, etc that connect to this thread as well. Now that Val has completed the Nymeria portion of her story arc, we will see the transition into the Norse mythology arcs that is heavily associated with the north and Jon, and the etymology of her name. Here goes it:

The north and Jon's storyline is heavily inspired by Norse mythology. In the poem Grímnismál, Odin (disguised as Grímnir- Jon in this case), tortured, starved and thirsty, tells the young Agnar that he wishes that the valkyries Hrist ("shaker") and Mist ("cloud") would "bear him a [drinking] horn", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valkyrie

Poetic Edda:

 
On the horn’s face were there
All the kin of letters
Cut aright and reddened,
How should I rede them rightly?
The ling-fish long (a ling-fish is a dragon?)
Of the land of Hadding,
Wheat-ears unshorn,
And wild things inwards.

We have a few references to Sam being so scared that he shakes (could be coincidental), but we also know Bloodraven is heavily associated with the mists.

Sam is in Oldtown to train a s a maester and the third link is generally the bronze link, which is astronomy. The bronze bands on the horn are broken and it's a good thing Sam is in a place that trains its people to forge metals and also has a library that holds secrets from hundreds of years past. Sam does love to read and learn about past, as Jon also commanded him to do.

A Clash of Kings - Jon V

It must have been buried for a reason.
He had made a dagger for Grenn as well, and another for the Lord Commander. The warhorn he had given to Sam. On closer examination the horn had proved cracked, and even after he had cleaned all the dirt out, Jon had been unable to get any sound from it. The rim was chipped as well, but Sam liked old things, even worthless old things. "Make a drinking horn out of it," Jon told him, "and every time you take a drink you'll remember how you ranged beyond the Wall, all the way to the Fist of the First Men." He gave Sam a spearhead and a dozen arrowheads as well, and passed the rest out among his other friends for luck.
Edited by The Fattest Leech

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More transition into the Norse mythology for Jon and the north and (almost literally) Val:

This is a place that I always took as a type of portal. I hope I can make sense of it here. And sorry, it might get a tad long.

Before the mutiny at Castle Black by Marsh and Wick, and two others, Jon calls everyone to the Shieldhall, and this is before decisions about the pink letter. These are the first introductions to Shieldhall we get. First, a little language lesson:

  • The word “Aesir”  is old Norse meaning "multiple gods". It is almost certainly derived from one of two Proto-Germanic words: *ansaz, “pole, beam, rafter,” or *ansuz, “life, vitality.” In either case, we see that the Aesir were thought of as being the powers that hold the cosmos together, the animating personalities of the “forces of nature.” So with that said, Shieldhall is a place at Castle Black where the Aesir/Gods/Black Brothers come together to discuss protecting the realms of men/forces of nature. Got it!

Everything is from Jon/ ADWD:

  • Tormund roared at that as well. "Eat," the raven said darkly, flapping its black wings. "Corn? Corn? Corn?"
    "We need to talk about the ranging," said Jon. "I want us to be of one mind at the Shieldhall, we must—" He broke off when Mully poked his nose inside the door, grim-faced, to announce that Clydas had brought a letter.
    "Tell him to leave it with you. I will read it later."
  •    The Shieldhall was one of the older parts of Castle Black, a long drafty feast hall of dark stone, its oaken rafters black with the smoke of centuries. Back when the Night's Watch had been much larger, its walls had been hung with rows of brightly colored wooden shields. Then as now, when a knight took the black, tradition decreed that he set aside his former arms and take up the plain black shield of the brotherhood. The shields thus discarded would hang in the Shieldhall.
       Hundreds of knights meant hundreds of shields. Hawks and eagles, dragons and griffins, suns and stags, wolves and wyverns, manticores, bulls, trees and flowers, harps, spears, crabs and krakens, red lions and golden lions and chequy lions, owls, lambs, maids and mermen, stallions, stars, buckets and buckles, flayed men and hanged men and burning men, axes, longswords, turtles, unicorns, bears, quills, spiders and snakes and scorpions, and a hundred other heraldic charges had adorned the Shieldhall walls, blazoned in more colors than any rainbow ever dreamed of.
       But when a knight died, his shield was taken down, that it might go with him to his pyre or his tomb, and over the years and centuries fewer and fewer knights had taken the black. A day came when it no longer made sense for the knights of Castle Black to dine apart. The Shieldhall was abandoned. In the last hundred years, it had been used only infrequently. As a dining hall, it left much to be desiredit was dark, dirty, drafty, and hard to heat in winter, its cellars infested with rats, its massive wooden rafters worm-eaten and festooned with cobwebs.
       But it was large and long enough to seat two hundred, and half again that many if they crowded close. When Jon and Tormund entered, a sound went through the hall, like wasps stirring in a nest. The wildlings outnumbered the crows by five to one, judging by how little black he saw. Fewer than a dozen shields remained, sad grey things with faded paint and long cracks in the wood. But fresh torches burned in the iron sconces along the walls, and Jon had ordered benches and tables brought in. Men with comfortable seats were more inclined to listen, Maester Aemon had once told him; standing men were more inclined to shout.
    ***
    "No. I ride south." Then Jon read them the letter Ramsay Snow had written.
    The Shieldhall went mad.
    Every man began to shout at once. They leapt to their feet, shaking fists. So much for the calming power of comfortable benches. Swords were brandished, axes smashed against shields. Jon Snow looked to Tormund. The Giantsbane sounded his horn once more, twice as long and twice as loud as the first time.
    ***
    The roar was all he could have hoped for, the tumult so loud that the two old shields tumbled from the walls. Soren Shieldbreaker was on his feet, the Wanderer as well. Toregg the Tall, Brogg, Harle the Huntsman and Harle the Handsome both, Ygon Oldfather, Blind Doss, even the Great Walrus. I have my swords, thought Jon Snow, and we are coming for you, Bastard.
    ***
    Yarwyck and Marsh were slipping out, he saw, and all their men behind them. It made no matter. He did not need them now. He did not want them. No man can ever say I made my brothers break their vows. If this is oathbreaking, the crime is mine and mine alone. Then Tormund was pounding him on the back, all gap-toothed grin from ear to ear. "Well spoken, crow. Now bring out the mead! Make them yours and get them drunk, that's how it's done. We'll make a wildling o' you yet, boy. Har!"
    ***
    >>>Now, compare all of this to none other than the Viking society and völva (which is what Val and Dalla are/were):
     
    In addition, many aristocratic Viking women (Princess Val) wanted to serve Freyja and represent her in Midgard.[9] They married Viking warlords who had Odin as a role model (Jon in this case), and they settled in great halls that were earthly representations of Valhalla. (Shieldhall) [9] In Norse mythology, Valhalla (from Old Norse Valhöll "hall of the slain"[1]) is a majestic, enormous hall, filled with the shields of the fallen, and is located in Asgard, ruled over by the god Odin. In these halls there were magnificent feasts with ritualized meals, and the visiting chieftains can be likened with the einherjar, the fallen warriors who fought bravely and were served drinks by Valkyries.[9] However, the duties of the mistresses were not limited to serving mead to visiting guests, but they were also expected to take part in warfare by manipulating weaving tools magically when their spouses were out in battle.[9] Scholars no longer believe that these women waited passively at home, and there is evidence for their magic activities both in archaeological finds and in Old Norse sources, such as the Darraðarljóð.[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Völva
     
    >>> Basically, I think Shieldhall, a grand hall that is steeped with the history of warrior brothers and mead and feasts (getting drunk in this case, and Mormont's raven tells them to "Eat"), is Jon's personal portal to his underworld that he is about to face. He goes in to his portal and raises his warriors (the wildlings) and then leaves only to be stabbed by the NW traitors.
     
    Additionally, this line here, "However, the duties of the mistresses were not limited to serving mead to visiting guests, but they were also expected to take part in warfare by manipulating weaving tools magically when their spouses were out in battle. Scholars no longer believe that these women waited passively at home," is also a great connection to Val and what is described of in Nymeria. This goes along with the equal primogeniture of the wildlings and the Rhoynish people described in the OP.
     
Edited by The Fattest Leech
added more info

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A carry-over from the last post about Shieldhall and Jon's connection to Odin. A beautiful picture of Odin with his raven, wold, spear and throne finery.

*Fun Fact: I know there are some similarities between Brynden Bloodraven Rivers:wub: and Odin as well, but this is due to Jon acknowledging he is like Ghost who he says in Dance, "Of late, Jon Snow sometimes felt as if he and the direwolf were one, even awake," and also in Storm,"He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one."

By Jon comparing himself to Ghost, who is of the old gods, Jon is also unknowingly claiming he is of the old gods as well. So, while Bloodraven is linked to Odin in certain ways that I will not cover fully tonight, Jon also shares many attributes with Odin and it is because Jon and Bloodraven are both linked to the old gods. Maybe Odin is the Old God superior??? (meaning, someone higher up than BR or Jon) All sources are from here, unless noted otherwise.

  • A little about Odin. In Anglo-Saxon England, Odin held a particular place as a euhemerized (history that becomes myth) ancestral figure among royalty, and he is frequently referred to as a founding figure among various other Germanic peoples,
    • Jon is half of the royal family Targaryen, and compounded with him being kept secret, you can see the easy transition from real to myth.
      • Or this could be a Lightbringer/Sword of the Morning/AAR reference???
    • Jon is now a founding figure in the act of saving and settling and marrying the wildlings into the Westerosi north.
    • Also, Goerge uses the Anglo-Saxon version of the word "völva", which is Vala, and where Val and Dalla's names and characterizations comes from.

 

  • In Old Norse texts, Odin is depicted as one-eyed and long-bearded, frequently wielding a spear named Gungnir, and wearing a cloak and a broad hat. He is often accompanied by his animal companions—the wolves Geri and Freki and the ravens Huginn and Muninn, who bring him information from all over Midgard—and Odin rides the flying, eight-legged steed Sleipnir across the sky and into the underworld.
    • One-eyed makes you think of Bloodraven with his one red eye, but remember, Jon was also attacked by a skinchanged eagle and he thought he lost his eye, but it was filled with blood. The god Odin gave his eye for wisdom, source. You know nothing (yet) Jon Snow.
    • The cloak and spear references are fairly easy connections to Jon's sword that skinchanged from a bear to a wolf, and the black cloak he wears. The broad hat could be the link to Bloodraven who did like to wear a broad hood to conceal his face.
      • sidenote: while Val is not a spearwife, many associate wilding wives as "spear-wives". The spear name Gungnir means "spear of Odin"= spear of Jon = Val and Jon.
    • The ravens names are Huginn, from Old Norse "thought", and Muninn, from Old Norse "memory" or "mind". They fly all over the world, Midgard, and bring information to the god Odin. Sounds like ravens in general, but the idea that they mean "thought" and "memory" links Mormont's raven to Jon right away.
      • a nickname for Odin is the "Raven God', which does sound like Bloodraven as well, right?
    • In Norse mythology, Sleipnir is a grey horse and the name means "slippy"or "the slipper"... as in Jon most likely "slipping" into Ghost's skin when he is stabbed to save his life, or in this case, into the underworld = death (but not really).
      • Dance, Jon 12 before he rides out to meet the wildlings: "Jon Snow for the stables. Satin had his horse saddled and bridled and waiting for him, a fiery grey courser with a mane as black and shiny as maester's ink. He was not the sort of mount that Jon would have chosen for a ranging, but on this morning all that mattered was that he look impressive, and for that the stallion was a perfect choice."
      • Alys Karstark arrives on a grey horse
      • Jon says this about Val in Dance:
        • [Val speaking] "He may not heed your words, but he will hear them." Val kissed him lightly on the cheek. "You have my thanks, Lord Snow. For the half-blind horse, the salt cod, the free air. For hope."
        • Val waited by the gate in the predawn cold, wrapped up in a bearskin cloak so large it might well have fit Sam. Beside her was a garron, saddled and bridled, a shaggy grey with one white eye.
        • [Jon's thoughts about Val] "Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her."
      • Jon has this said about him when he first meets Mance in STORM: Styr the Magnar drew a long knife. "The boy might see more clear with one eye, instead of two."

 

  • Jon, and Bloodraven, also share Odin's fondness for bows and archery as I wrote about in the Jon/Rhaegar comparison thread here. Jon has instated archery training to take place everyday.
    • Ichaival, a bow possessed by Odin. Another source said it was came from Ydalir, the home of the god Ullr. It possessed the power of each pull of just one arrow will release ten arrows.
  • Odin is attested as having many sons, most famously the god Baldr
    • Jon has many brothers, and now may loyal wildlings, and many loyal northern houses who are building snowmen (as Theon saw) and Jon doesn't even know about these guys yet.
    • I always kinda thought Sam was Baldr. Seriously, read about Baldr in the link above. Baldr was nicknamed "the good", or, "the brave god"... does "Sam the Slayer" sound familiar???

 

  • While I was researching this portion of my write-up, I came across the idea that Odin and/or his warriors were berserkers. I decided to check the Westeros search to see if anyone else found this connection, and low and behold the poster bemused did a nice thread about it a year ago. I was not yet joined here on these forums or I would have loved to have participated in that one as well. Jon the Berserker thread.
    • Berserkers (or berserks) were champion Norse warriors who are primarily reported in the Old Norse literature to have fought in a nearly uncontrollable, trance-like fury, a characteristic which later gave rise to the English word berserk. These Viking champions would often go into battle without mail-coats; the word "berserk" meant going into battle wearing only wolf, bear or animal skins.[1] Berserkers are attested to in numerous Old Norse sources.

      The Úlfhéðnar (singular Úlfheðinn), another term associated with berserkers, mentioned in the Vatnsdæla saga, Haraldskvæði and the Völsunga saga, were said to wear the pelt of a wolf when they entered battle.[2] Úlfhéðnar are sometimes described as Odin's special warriors: "[Odin's] men went without their mailcoats and were mad as hounds or wolves, bit their shields...they slew men, but neither fire nor iron had effect upon them. This is called 'going berserk'."[3]:132 In addition, the helm-plate press from Torslunda depicts (below) a scene of Odin with a berserker—"a wolf skinned warrior with the apparently one-eyed dancer in the bird-horned helm, which is generally interpreted as showing a scene indicative of a relationship between berserkgang... and the god Odin[4]"—with a wolf pelt and a spear as distinguishing features.[5]

    • This could be the reason for the "wolfishness" Jon is expected to come back as, but I does explain his snap physical attacks while he is at the wall with certain people. Read the linked thread for more info.

    • The berserkers could also be the men at Castle Black that go into protect and fight mode after the mutiny to save Jon or during a battle at Winterfell(?) under a Jon banner- which would be symbolic of under a wolf/bear skin or cloak.

    • Another relation to Val and Jon through the berserker is this expression most likely arose from their reputed habit of wearing a kind of shirt or coat made from the pelt of a bear (ber-) during battle. The bear was one of the animals representing Odin, and by wearing such a pelt the warriors sought to gain the strength of a bear and the favor of Odin. 

      A Storm of Swords - Jon I

      There was no doubting which tent was the king's. It was thrice the size of the next largest he'd seen, and he could hear music drifting from within. Like many of the lesser tents it was made of sewn hides with the fur still on, but Mance Rayder's hides were the shaggy white pelts of snow bears. The peaked roof was crowned with a huge set of antlers from one of the giant elks that had once roamed freely throughout the Seven Kingdoms, in the times of the First Men.
    • A Storm of Swords - Jon II

      "Yes, but . . . Tormund, I swear, I've never touched her."
      "Are you certain they never cut your member off?" Tormund gave a shrug, as if to say he would never understand such madness. "Well, you are a free man now, but if you will not have the girl, best find yourself a she-bear. If a man does not use his member it grows smaller and smaller, until one day he wants to piss and cannot find it."

      A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

    • Val waited by the gate in the predawn cold, wrapped up in a bearskin cloak so large it might well have fit Sam. Beside her was a garron, saddled and bridled, a shaggy grey with one white eye.

      A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

      Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.
      They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.
  • Regarding Odin and his death... we have this to go on:

    • In a Christian context 'hanging in heaven' would refer to the crucifixion; but (remembering that Woden was mentioned a few lines previously) there is also a parallel, perhaps a better one, with Odin, as his crucifixion was associated with learning."[8] (You WILL know something, Jon Snow!) The Old English gnomic poem Maxims I also mentions Odin by name in the (alliterative) phrase Woden worhte weos, 'Woden made idols'), in which he is contrasted with and denounced against the Christian God.[9]

      • We know Jon is of the old gods (he said so as so does his blood), but now we see a major deciding factor for Bowen Marsh and company to initiate the mutiny when they did. Bowen and Co. think they know the wildlings, but they don't, and to Bowen and Co., the wildlings are heathens that can just die north of the wall because it goes against the "southron" perception of wildlings.

      • Additionally, this hopefully means Jon will undo the atrocities "Good" Queen Alysanne committed against the common northmen, the Starks, the Nights Watch, the direwolves and magic in general, by undoing the southron religious thinking of the Seven ("Christianity") and opening up the magic portals along the wall that she had sealed off and abandoned.

  • One more oddball piece that I am too tired to decipher at the moment, but I couldn't resist adding it.

    • In the Nine Herbs Charm, Odin is said to have slain a wyrm by way of nine "glory twigs".

      • wyrm... as in dragon?

      • nine "glory twigs" = the nine weirwood trees where Jon takes his vows, finds a small set of starving, helpless wildlings, and may possibly be taken to "heal" (or something) after the mutiny stabbings????

So, as always, there is a lot, lot more, but I want to give others the chance to jump in and note what they see and discuss.

Edited by The Fattest Leech
added more info

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4 hours ago, bemused said:

Just got home from work and saw your message. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

You have my condolences, best wishes and highest hopes it works out. I have been in similar situations and it sucks.

The forum will be here when you have time :cheers:

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Something I noticed yesterday; When Nymeria came to Dorne her people married with the Westerosi, Gerrick Kingsblood's three daughters are betrothed to Ser Axell Florent, Ser Brus Buckler and Ser Malegorn of Redpool.

Also at least to me Nymeria's story is more about the big picture, a non Westerosi to bring her people to Westeros and change the society, than the blinkered a *warrior* woman who is a Queen.

Edited by Jon's Queen Consort

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On 8/27/2016 at 6:46 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Something I noticed yesterday; When Nymeria came to Dorne her people married with the Westerosi, Gerrick Kingsblood's three daughters are betrothed to Ser Axell Florent, Ser Brus Buckler and Ser Malegorn of Redpool.

Also at least to me Nymeria's story is more about the big picture, a non Westerosi to bring her people to Westeros and change the society, than the blinkered a *warrior* woman who is a Queen.

Absolutely Nymeria's story was about the big picture. I am glad you agree, because while the end game for some does include marriage, ultimately the true end game is for the humans to survive the Others, and then thrive within their own lands= politics, religion, personal freedom, etc.

Also, with all of the war taking its toll on the families and killing off so many  of them, it only makes sense now to reintroduce fresh blood to expand the flailing families. This will also give Jon the opportunity to reestablish the New Gift that the not-so-good Queen Alysanne took away from the Starks while also severing magic from the north.

Yeah. People tend to lump all of the wildling women into one catagory of "spearwife" warrior /fighter/etc, when we know that the woman are so much more... such as healers, and seers, and even taking on more domestic responsibilities. Basically, as varied as the people in Nymeria's group and the woman of southern Westeros.

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Jon and the Blood Eagle and how it relates to Jon = Odin:

This is one where symbolism matters much more than the actual, literal events. I mentioned in this thread how Jon is linked to Odin Odin sacrificed his eye for knowledge. It is in the this thread about 4 posts up, but here it is anyway:

  • One-eyed makes you think of Bloodraven with his one red eye, but remember, Jon was also attacked by a skinchanged eagle and he thought he lost his eye, but it was filled with blood. The god Odin gave his eye for wisdom, source. You know nothing (yet) Jon Snow.
  • Melisandre burned this eagle when Stannis arrived at the wall. Another connection to a Mel being the cause of northen old gods religious suppression.

 

I think what Jon experienced was the Blood Eagle of mythology.

  • In the Orkneyinga saga, the blood eagle is described as a sacrifice to Odin. Torf-Einarr has Harald Fairhair's son Halfdan Long-Leg ritually executed:

    Einarr made them carve an eagle on his back with a sword, and cut the ribs all from the backbone, and draw the lungs there out, and gave him to Odin for the victory he had won.[4]

     

Here is the book passage that details Jon's eagle experience. A few curious things to note, emphasized by me in the text, is the general slashing of skin, Turmund's "hellcrow" description = Hel is a place where Odin goes with his horse "Slippy", and the black sight and blood red eye... very Bloodraveny:

  • A Storm of Swords - Jon II

"Oh, hundreds," she [Ygritte] said furiously. "You know nothing, Jon Snow. You—JON!"
Jon turned at the sudden sound of wings. Blue-grey feathers filled his eyes, as sharp talons buried themselves in his face. Red pain lanced through him sudden and fierce as pinions beat round his head. He saw the beak, but there was no time to get a hand up or reach for a weapon. Jon reeled backward, his foot lost the stirrup, his garron broke in panic, and then he was falling. And still the eagle clung to his face, its talons tearing at him as it flapped and shrieked and pecked. The world turned upside down in a chaos of feathers and horseflesh and blood, and then the ground came up to smash him.
The next he knew, he was on his face with the taste of mud and blood in his mouth and Ygritte kneeling over him protectively, a bone dagger in her hand. He could still hear wings, though the eagle was not in sight. Half his world was black. "My eye," he said in sudden panic, raising a hand to his face.
"It's only blood, Jon Snow. He missed the eye, just ripped your skin up some."
His face was throbbing. Tormund stood over them bellowing, he saw from his right eye as he rubbed blood from his left. Then there were hoofbeats, shouts, and the clacking of old dry bones.
"Bag o' Bones," roared Tormund, "call off your hellcrow!"
Ygritte helped pull him up. "He's bleeding like a butchered boar. Look what Orell did t' his sweet face."
Can a bird hate? Jon had slain the wilding Orell, but some part of the man remained within the eagle. The golden eyes looked out on him with cold malevolence. "I'll come," he said. The blood kept running down into his right eye, and his cheek was a blaze of pain. When he touched it his black gloves came away stained with red. "Let me catch my garron." It was not the horse he wanted so much as Ghost, but the direwolf was nowhere to be seen. He could be leagues away by now, ripping out the throat of some elk. Perhaps that was just as well.
 
  • The eye is symbolically the window to the soul and the first part of one's perception. When the eagle attacked Jon and blood spilled into his eye, this was Jon taking a look at his first men blood and it was just after this, when back at Castle Black, that Jon admits that his perception about the wildlings has changed.
  • Also, the Odin write up with the Eagle and the eye will show Odin has only one eye, which blazes like the sun. His other eye he traded for a drink from the Well of Wisdom, and gained immense knowledge. So again, we have water connections to wisdom, which is also a connection to Nymeria with the water and wisdom, or "wise woman", as referred to Dalla and Val as she replaces her dead sister and repeats the wisdom.
    • Mance gave her a fond smile. "It's a wise woman I've found. A true queen."
    • "Dalla told me something once. Val's sister, Mance Rayder's wife. She said that sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it."
      "A wise woman." Melisandre rose, her red robes stirring in the wind.
Edited by The Fattest Leech
It was Melisandre's fault!

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On 28/8/2016 at 9:01 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

not-so-good Queen Alysanne

YES! Thank you! I am tired of seeing Good Queen Alysanne when she basically just made laws for everyone except her family and took the land which was used for thousands years by the Northerners with no problem.

On 28/8/2016 at 9:01 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Yeah. People tend to lump all of the wildling women into one catagory of "spearwife" warrior /fighter/etc, when we know that the woman are so much more... such as healers, and seers, and even taking on more domestic responsibilities. Basically, as varied as the people in Nymeria's group and the woman of southern Westeros.

It is noted that Nymeria wasn't a warrior but many of her people were. Just like most likely priestess Val who isn't a warrior but many of her people are.

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A tad more on the Blood Eagle. This time with more Maester Aemon!

As I mentioned above,I think what Jon experienced was the Blood Eagle of mythology. There seems to be an overlap of basic, figurative remarks in Jon's mutiny stabbing in the back, maybe the breath Jon is trying to gasp for, and maybe a sacrifice idea that wakes Odin, and even wakes the dragon in Jon??? Just ideas. Please discuss because this one is a little farther out there, I admit.

Einarr made them carve an eagle on his back with a sword, and cut the ribs all from the backbone, and draw the lungs there out, and gave him to Odin for the victory he had won.[4]

Could Aemon also be describing a Blood Eagle situation with Jon? I know Jon and Dany have their obvious parallels, and this could have been what Dany experinced way back in book 1 with the Drogo pyre because she had her "dragon puberty first", so maybe this is symbolism for what is also to come for Jon? Remember, not literal, but figurative.

  • A Feast for Crows - Samwell III

"The last dragon died before you were born," said Sam. "How could you remember them?"
[Aemon] "I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend . . . or . . ."

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Ok, I gotta take a quick detour here and go down a humorous, lighthearted road for a minute. Feel free to use this time to get up and stretch, top off your tea, or nosh on a bit of bagel:

According to this, Mormont's raven stole a piece of meat from Jon and made off with it and Jon referred to the meat as a prize! Hahaha. Quite telling :lol:

  • A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

It was still dark when Jon returned to his chambers behind the armory. Ghost was not yet back, he saw. Still hunting. The big white direwolf was gone more oft than not of late, ranging farther and farther in search of prey. Between the men of the Watch and the wildlings down in Mole's Town, the hills and fields near Castle Black had been hunted clean, and there had been little enough game to begin with. Winter is coming, Jon reflected. And soon, too soon. He wondered if they would ever see a spring.
Dolorous Edd made the trek to the kitchens and soon was back with a tankard of brown ale and a covered platter. Under the lid Jon discovered three duck's eggs fried in drippings, a strip of bacon, two sausages, a blood pudding, and half a loaf of bread still warm from the oven. He ate the bread and half an egg. He would have eaten the bacon too, but the raven made off with it before he had the chance. "Thief," Jon said, as the bird flapped up to the lintel above the door to devour its prize.
"Thief," the raven agreed.

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Val and her connections after the wall passing

Ok. At this point we have Jon pretty well figured out with his inspirational backstory. Now let's get an update on Val now that she has Nymeria'd her way with her people into the lives of Jon, the Nights Watch and Westeros south of the wall.

  1. Personality and looks:
    • Young, but we do not know her age for sure. Ygritte was about 3 years older than Jon, so it could be in keeping with that?
    • Resourceful, brave and capable. Jon even comments on how Val was able to do what others could not by returning with the wildlings, which is part of her Nymeria parallel.
    • A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

      "All true enough, but the wildling woman was so much more. She had proved that by finding Tormund where seasoned rangers of the Watch had failed. She may not be a princess, but she would make a worthy wife for any lord."
    •  
    • Val has strong links to Frigga, the wife of Odin:
      • As the wife of Odin, Frigg is one of the foremost goddesses of Norse mythology. She is the patron of marriage and motherhood, and the goddess of love and fertility.

        She has a reputation of knowing every person's destiny, but never unveils it.

        Her hall in Asgard is Fensalir (water halls). Remember, Winterfell is described as having watery walls.

        Women prayed to her for children and prayed again for safe labor and delivery. This is pointed out a few lines down where Jon declares her the midwife during Dalla's delivery.

    • Honey-blonde hair. This one stands out to me because of the importance of Norse symbolism in this part of ASOIAF. Honey may have different meanings in other character arcs of the books, but for Jon, honey is a good thing = mead!
      1. Mead is made from honey and water and sometimes spices. So mead is honey-wine. Jon loves his spiced/mulled wine as he drinks it several times throughout Dance.
      2. As we saw earlier in the Shieldhall post, Tormund the Mead-King of Ruddy Hall calls for mead to celebrate battle and Jon binding the wildlings to his cause.
      3. Mead of Poetry. The drink is a vivid metaphor for poetic inspiration, often associated with Odin the god of 'possession' via berserker rage or poetic inspiration. This mead of poetry drink is mix of blood and honey which when drunk is supposed to make someone be able to answer any question. Very symbolic, indeed.
      4. In Norse mythology certain details of the description of Yggdrasil, the world ash, also can be explained by the sugary property of ash trees. It is felt to rain honey on the world, and mead is said to flow in its branches. This sounds a lot like the red, blood-like weirwood sap that we see weeping from trees and what Bran has to eat.
    • Val's eye color. They are mentioned as grey at first, then blue when she returns, but she is clearly not dead because she has misty breath and pink cheeks- and Ghost likes Val naturally (as opposed to when Mel used a spell). Also, the time of day is different as are her clothing color, something we have already seen in-story known to affect eye color.
      1. Renly had his eye color change from blue to green. And Jaime's horse changed genders. And yes, the Jeyne hip sizing. The natural sunlight and clouds change the color of the wall from white to blue to black and back again. Maybe the wall color and Val's eyes are more of a clue to atmosphere changes (winter is coming) or time of day?

      2. However, we do have young Aegon's eyes change color with one hair color and different lighting. Tyrion in Dance says, "Like his sire, Young Griff had blue eyes, but where the father's eyes were pale, the son's were dark. By lamplight they turned black, and in the light of dusk they seemed purple."

      3. Even Bran describes Jon's eyes in Game as, " Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see." So one might say Jon's eyes are dark grey, while someone else would say they are black. That actually happens a lot on these discussion threads.

      4. Storm, Jon 3,  "In the dark, the direwolf's red eyes looked black."

      5. And another Nymeria/water/sea reference; "His eyes, Aeron saw, were now grey, now blue, as changeable as the seas."

      6. If you remember George telling us Hadrian's wall is the inspiration for the ASOIAF wall, then you will remember the very clear Jon and Val links to that. Well, we have this:

      • ACOK/Jon I: Sometimes it seemed to Jon almost a living thing, with moods of its own. The color of the ice was wont to change with every shift of the light. Now it was the deep blue of frozen rivers, now the dirty white of old snow, and when a cloud passed before the sun it darkened to the pale grey of pitted stone.

  2. Her name, and Dalla, are part of the Völva, or Vala in English. Vala= Val + Dalla. We spoke of this in the main post, so I will not repeat too much here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Völva
  3. How Jon takes command. One thing the wildling woman respect (and require) in their men is that they are strong and commanding (not to be confused with abusive) and Jon does just that with Val:
    1. [Jon] "Go inside the tent and stay with Dalla. It's not safe out here." It wouldn't be a great deal safer inside, but she didn't need to hear that.
      [Val] "I need to find the midwife," Val said.
      [Jon] "You're the midwife. I'll stay here until Mance comes back."
    2. "You may not. This is no game. A river of blood runs between our peoples, old and deep and red. Stannis Baratheon is one of the few who favors admitting wildlings to the realm. I need his queen's support for what I've done."

      Val's playful smile died. "You have my word, Lord Snow. I will be a proper wildling princess for your queen."
  4. How she will help Jon. With her inspiration coming from a traveling seer, prophetess and healer, Jon will most likely need Val more than Morna to heal his body while his mind is safe other places.
  5. How she will affect the Wetserosi nobility perceptions. The volva are part of the highest level of their society. There is evidence that Dalla and Val are higher ranking as well with their nice snowbear white clothes, the ability to travel unmolested, the fact that Mance had enough respect for Dalla that he "stole" her and made a baby with her and kept her and her sister well.
    • A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

      Val stood on the tower roof, gazing up at the Wall. Stannis kept her closely penned in rooms above his own, but he did allow her to walk the battlements for exercise. She looks lonely, Jon thought. Lonely, and lovely. Ygritte had been pretty in her own way, with her red hair kissed by fire, but it was her smile that made her face come alive. Val did not need to smile; she would have turned men's heads in any court in the wide world.
  6. How the north will come back together. Jon has already been starting this process when he married a Thenn to a Karstark and they created a new house sigil. Also Jon is promoting certain wildlings into the Nights Watch with actual responsibilities. Jon is even given two castles on the wall to wildlings. As mentioned earlier, Jon wants to repopulate the New Gift that was stolen by not-so-good Queen Alysanne and use wildlings to do so.
    • The north is starving for people, especially people that know how to survive in the north. An influx of actual First Man blood into the north will help quench the need for new blood into houses that are already dangerously low in the marrying options. Incest is an abomination in the north (all of Westeros actually), so this would allow the people to live without this sin.
    • Stannis and Selyse see the value in Val at minumum equal to southron Westerosi highborn woman as he tries to marry Val off to different men of his three times. And, whoever gets Val, gets Winterfell because they go together.
Edited by The Fattest Leech

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