The Fattest Leech

Nymeria is poised to return

116 posts in this topic

Ok, this one is a little holy crap! for me... in a good way. But what do you think???? This is about the Long Night, mostly.

I mentioned on PG1 how Norse mythology related to how Val and Dalla got their names. Here is a reminder:

  • How Val and Dalla got their name and their importance to Free Folk society (section 4). Or this updated woods witch one in ASOIAF world.
  • Dalla and Val are derived from the old Norse word Völva, or Vala in more modern tongue. The Vala were wandering shaman/healer, and one who is a seer.
  • Another translation to Völva is spæwīfe, which is like spearwife in the story.
  • The weapon of the vǫlva was not the spear, the axe or the sword, but instead they were held to influence battles with different means, and one of them was the wand. This is exaclty how historic Nymeria is described and in the story Val is not a technical fighting spearwife, either.

But then I also added this just now as I came across the name Vali in a way I had not seen it before and it fits where Jon and Val are currently in the story.

  • An overlapping option for Val's name is Vali, the god who avenges death and is also the etymology for a holy place called Valaskjálf.

But then this was my holy crap! moment for sure. What do you think? I have suggested in the past (not this thread) that Val is the monkey tail lady because of her very long braid being like a tail and it is sometimes wrapped around, draping over her shoulder.

Now, am I crazy with this? Is there a significant amount of information that points to this being someone like Danaerys instead??? Dany with Tyrion in tow? 

Help me out so I don't get too ahead of myself.

Here (below) is a little more info, including the Rhoynar and their beliefs that include a secret song, and a few things that I talked about on PG 1 that link to Patchface and his crabby prophecies and the old man of the river- both of them. The blood betrayal is easily the mutiny stabbing, and/or, Jon choosing to save the Free Folk and Arya. The monkey tail lady is Val. The "ashamed" feeling is Jon either feeling ashamed of his presumed bastardy, or being a warg (he was always taught they were not good), or for "betraying" his NW vows to save the realms of men (which we know by now Jon was in the right). Secret songs are what we talked about already Val represents with historic Nymeria returning and the songs the children sing. The "sun hiding his face" is Jon, the sun to Val the moon, and means Jon is probably under guard while healing after possibly having a weirwood connection to Bran and/or his first conscious warg into Ghost.

Rhoynar

The Rhoynar tell of a darkness that made the Rhoyne of Essos dwindle and disappear, her waters frozen as far south as the joining of the Selhoru, until a hero convinced the many children of Mother Rhoyne, such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River, to put aside their bickering and join in a secret song that brought back the day.[3]

Further East

Other legends from the Further East, including Yi Ti, state the Blood Betrayal began the Long Night. The Lion of Night was unleashed upon the world after the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back on it.[5]

According to a legend from Yi Ti, during the Long Night the sun hid its face for a lifetime, ashamed at something none could discover, and disaster was only averted by the deeds of a woman with a monkey's tail.[3]

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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15 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:
  • An overlapping option for Val's name is Vali, the god who avenges death and is also the etymology for a holy place called Valaskjálf.

So what you want to say is that Val could be a priestess who holds a wand or a scepter, like a Queen, who will avenge Jon’s death by rising the Free Folk against the Southorns?

15 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

But then this was my holy crap! moment for sure. What do you think? I have suggested in the past (not this thread) that Val is the monkey tail lady because of her very long braid being like a tail and it is sometimes wrapped around, draping over her shoulder.

 

 

I LOVE this!

 It makes perfect sense! Could this be because she saves Jon and avenges his death?

Also completely off topic;

Can we all go to JRRT’s work for a second? Just humor me please.

The first time we see Galadriel in The Lord of the Rings she is described as;

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"Very tall they were, and the Lady no less tall than the Lord; and they were grave and beautiful. They were clad wholly in white; and the hair of the Lady was of deep gold…”

When Jon describes Val

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Val stood beside him, tall and fair.

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 Even Val was at her window, her long golden braid across one shoulder.

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Her eyes were grey and fearless, unflinching. Beneath an ermine cloak, she wore white and gold.

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"Did you follow me as well?" Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him. "Snow," it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.

They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

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Ygritte had been pretty in her own way, with her red hair kissed by fire, but it was her smile that made her face come alive. Val did not need to smile; she would have turned men's heads in any court in the wide world.

About what kind of result her beauty had on others;

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The princess was so pretty that he oft found himself stammering and blushing in her presence.

Doesn’t that is similar to Gimli’s reaction after seeing Galadriel?

Galadriel wasn’t the typical kind of woman even by Elvish standards, she was independent and she had done what she wanted to the point that she abandoned Valinor.

While Val;

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Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her.

Also let’s not forget about her mission to find Tormund and bring him at Jon’s side.

Another part is Jon stealing Val. He *stole* her and gave her a giant to protect her. However;

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 Val was settled, Lord Snow. I have decided that she shall wed my good and leal knight, Ser Patrek of King's Mountain.

 

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"Has Val been told, Your Grace?" asked Jon. "Amongst the free folk, when a man desires a woman, he steals her, and thus proves his strength, his cunning, and his courage. The suitor risks a savage beating if he is caught by the woman's kin, and worse than that if she herself finds him unworthy."

Ser Patrek's answer was;

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"No man has ever had to question my courage. No woman ever will." 

and we all know what happened to him.

In the end the one that Jon named her protector ended up killing the man who claimed her. So Jon's champion, and Jon himself, wass the winner against the man who wanted to take her.

Edited by Jon's Queen Consort

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@The Fattest Leech What can I say? Bravo!  :bowdown:  I just read the entire thread again last night and I think you've tied it all together nicely.  I love how Val ties into the woman with the monkey tail.  

When I was re-reading the parts about Val and Jon facilitating the assimilation of the wildlings a thought occured to me in another thread about some parallels with the Mountain Clans, so let me know what you think.  Right off the bat, I know it's different in that the Mountain Clans are not trying to escape a threat (at least currently).  They are raiding with the goal of conquering in mind.  However as the Vale lords see it, they are protecting their land from savages and that's pretty much the same as how the North and the NW view wildlings.  There's some similarities I see to the Burned Men and the Thenns as they seem to have more disciplined leadership in Timett son of Timett.  They've also gained steel and experience with military tactics from the inside.  Tyrion also had thoughts of his own brand of "assimilating" the Mountain Clans, but it was for completely different reasons and he didn't have much respect for their egalitarian ways between the sexes.  

The Vale lords situation at the moment is weak much like in the North.  There's no strong leadership to resist and both are at the mercy of usurpers.  The differences being the Vale has escaped the death toll from the war unlike the North; however, their neighboring Riverlands have suffered massive casualties.  While the Mountain Clans are not really being threatened at the moment, winter is coming and they presumably have to descend from the mountains like everyone else for food.  There's all those grain stores at the Gates of the Moon that LF has been hording.  The clans are set up to make a huge power play and take advantage of the weakness of the Vale lords; however, there could be a mutually beneficial opportunity here as with Val and Jon in the North.  As First Men stock, the Clans might also be able to infuse new blood into the Riverlands and help survive winter, repopulate, and rebuild.  Ironically, the Clans could provide defense against marauding soldiers and outlaws and help stabalize the region where the Lords have failed.  As Tyrion's wife, Sansa could have an opportunity to be a facillitator and their egalitarian views would be beneficial to Sansa.  She would recognize Timett (another one-eye character) and Shagga from KL.  We've already talked about a while ago Sansa and Arya having their connections to the Riverlands and the possibilties of First Men culture reclaiming half the realm.  Not sure about the Clans experience with greyscale or disease, so there may or may not be that parallel.               

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4 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

@The Fattest Leech What can I say? Bravo!  :bowdown:  I just read the entire thread again last night and I think you've tied it all together nicely.

Ho-LEE-Mo-LEE!!!! :blink: That is a lot, a lot lot, of reading because I know each post can be a little long. I try to keep them short, but so much overlaps, or one point is so important to three other points, that it makes it hard to do.

4 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 I love how Val ties into the woman with the monkey tail.  

I am being very honest when I ask for any differing opinions because I am trying not to sound like I am fan-girling over Val, or Val+Jon stuff, but I feel like the story and the clues are just telling themselves after they are found. Kinda like when you first read about the Red Wedding and it shocked the hell out of you, but on a re-read two and three times over, it is then that you can see the clues adding up to this from basically the start of ASOS and then it seems so "obvious".

4 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

When I was re-reading the parts about Val and Jon facilitating the assimilation of the wildlings a thought occured to me in another thread about some parallels with the Mountain Clans, so let me know what you think. 

Sure, but let me also offer @sweetsunray in on this (if she has time or want) because she is very good with the details on this subject. I am not sure if you have seen her Sansa and the Giant thread? I think you have, just can't recall at the moment (sorry).

4 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 

Right off the bat,

Nice... oh wait, that wasn't it yet ;)

4 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 

I know it's different in that the Mountain Clans are not trying to escape a threat (at least currently).  They are raiding with the goal of conquering in mind.  However as the Vale lords see it, they are protecting their land from savages and that's pretty much the same as how the North and the NW view wildlings.  

True, atleast in my opinion, that they are not trying to raid, but maybe reclaim something they may or may not know yet that they have a claim on. I believe it may be Timmet, Son of Timmet that could have an actual blood claim to the Eyrie??? Some of this may be slipping from my memory, which means time for a re-read!

I do agree that the Mountain Clans are one of the pockets of old blood that is trying to keep with their culture- the Faith of Seven and even some of the maester's have not always been kind to the ways of First Men. And because of this, there are several cultural and "language" issues that arise.

To me, this is also a good example that "wildlings" can work with those south of the wall. The Mountain Clans did with Tyrion. Sure, there will need to be some formal adjustments (George acknowledges this), but we have already seen on page it can be done as you noted below. I am so happy when I see other posters come to this realization as well. ^_^

4 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

There's some similarities I see to the Burned Men and the Thenns as they seem to have more disciplined leadership in Timett son of Timett.  They've also gained steel and experience with military tactics from the inside.  Tyrion also had thoughts of his own brand of "assimilating" the Mountain Clans, but it was for completely different reasons and he didn't have much respect for their egalitarian ways between the sexes.  

This could be the issue in the future as well, but if Tyrion first meets up with Dany in Essos, he will probably change his mind before coming back to Westeros.

The Hound is also a burned man. I think this aspect is very important to Sansa's arc. Each Stark kid has an occurance with a burned man of some type. Arya with Thoros and Berric. Jon with Mel and Mance ("Mance" was burned but is now alive again). Sansa with the Hound, who is a twice (?) burned man who is thought dead but is coming back. Not sure about Bran. It could be Bloodraven if, indeed, he was a sorcerer who practice the dark arts as rumored, which could have been the Red Rahloo???

4 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

The Vale lords situation at the moment is weak much like in the North.  There's no strong leadership to resist and both are at the mercy of usurpers.  The differences being the Vale has escaped the death toll from the war unlike the North; however, their neighboring Riverlands have suffered massive casualties.  

I see each of the Stark kids being trained in specific ways in order to take over their respective areas by the end of the series. I think, possibly, Sansa is being given the "test" of Sweetrobin because she will one day have to take over and raise her wild youngest brother. This is just speculation though because I don't think there is any book clues to back it up? 

4 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

While the Mountain Clans are not really being threatened at the moment, winter is coming and they presumably have to descend from the mountains like everyone else for food.  

This is actually one of the reasons why I think it is Super Smart of Jon to unite with the wildlings. Winter is coming and we have no idea how bad or how long it will be. Well, who better to help people to survive an everlong winter than the people who were born and bred there??? It is possible that part of the integration of Free Folk into the lower kingdom is they work with the people in a case just like this. Their house/clan leaders will have to set the example and this is why the marriage tie-ins are necessary. House Kar-Thenn???

4 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

There's all those grain stores at the Gates of the Moon that LF has been hording.  The clans are set up to make a huge power play and take advantage of the weakness of the Vale lords; however,

No doubt! This is going to be an intense read in TWOW.

4 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

there could be a mutually beneficial opportunity here as with Val and Jon in the North.  

Honestly, I hadn't made this connection yet, but yes, maybe with allowing the new Free Folk in the north, the Mountain Clans will come around (eventually) and this will help link Sansa back to her brother??? Just a thought.

4 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

As First Men stock, the Clans might also be able to infuse new blood into the Riverlands and help survive winter, repopulate, and rebuild.

I very much agree that after all the wars and riots and possible famine coming up in some areas, new blood will be crucial... and probably welcome.

In addition to this, there is a good chance that much of the political structure of Westeros could change. And not just from Jon, but from having a female Targ back in Westeros as well, possibly ruling the "belly" of the land.

4 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 Ironically, the Clans could provide defense against marauding soldiers and outlaws and help stabalize the region where the Lords have failed.  As Tyrion's wife, Sansa could have an opportunity to be a facillitator and their egalitarian views would be beneficial to Sansa.  She would recognize Timett (another one-eye character) and Shagga from KL.  We've already talked about a while ago Sansa and Arya having their connections to the Riverlands and the possibilties of First Men culture reclaiming half the realm.  

Arya is definitely the water dancer in this story. She has way too many Riverlands connections to not be finished there.

I am inclined to thinking that Sansa and Tyrion will meet up again, not sure if he and Sansa will remain married, but they definitely have unfinished business together. For me, there are too many possible and reasonable marriage/mate options for Sansa at the moment. Again, this Vale situation is sure to be fast paced in TWOW. Re-read first!

4 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Not sure about the Clans experience with greyscale or disease, so there may or may not be that parallel.               

This is where people like Val and other woods witches are going to also come in to play. Maybe Sam will find something out at the Citadel? Perhaps a book with a written cure that taken down by one of the traveling maester's who could have encountered a woods witch in the past? Not sure Sam has time for that in his arc with all the other issues he may have to overcome first, but it could be possible and would probably help if there is an outbreak in KL.

Thank you for the well thought out post. I appreciate it.

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8 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

So what you want to say is that Val could be a priestess who holds a wand or a scepter, like a Queen, who will avenge Jon’s death by rising the Free Folk against the Southorns?

Uummm, yes, why yes I do want to say those words. :devil:

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I LOVE this!

 It makes perfect sense! Could this be because she saves Jon and avenges his death?

To get serious for a quick second, I do hope that find does not sound too fan-girly or anything. I am open to options if it fits someone else better. Any ideas??? No:dunno:

Quote

Also completely off topic;

Can we all go to JRRT’s work for a second? Just humor me please.

The first time we see Galadriel in The Lord of the Rings she is described as;

Oooh girl, I didn't go there with JRRT, but I love this connection. It shows a common theme amongst great authors.

ADDING: Now that I think about it, Galadriel and Val have a lot in common as well, including a birth in trees and not naming herself a queen (or something like that. It has been a long, long time since I've read those stories).

ADDING AGAIN: Ok, just gonna put this here for anyone to read. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Galadriel

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When Jon describes Val

 I love the way he describes Val. Jon is never crass about her and he has respect for her and her culture. That is frickin' hot!

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About what kind of result her beauty had on others;

Doesn’t that is similar to Gimli’s reaction after seeing Galadriel?

Galadriel wasn’t the typical kind of woman even by Elvish standards, she was independent and she had done what she wanted to the point that she abandoned Valinor.

While Val;

Also let’s not forget about her mission to find Tormund and bring him at Jon’s side.

Another part is Jon stealing Val. He *stole* her and gave her a giant to protect her. However;

 

Ser Patrek's answer was;

and we all know what happened to him.

In the end the one that Jon named her protector ended up killing the man who claimed her. So Jon's champion, and Jon himself, wass the winner against the man who wanted to take her.

This Ser Patrek thing cracks me up. Every time I talk about it, something new pops up with the Jon-married-Val connection. And I love that Ser Patrek was a friend of George's whom George lost a bet to in real life :lmao:

Jon knows something by this point in the story. It is just that people aren't listening to him very well.

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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15 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I am being very honest when I ask for any differing opinions because I am trying not to sound like I am fan-girling over Val, or Val+Jon stuff, but I feel like the story and the clues are just telling themselves after they are found.

No, I can see it.  George invented in-book mythology for a reason.  We're meant to see the archetypes because history is repeating.  I was just doing a search on monkey mythology.  In Hindu mythology, there's a monkey/human hybrid race called Vanara ("forest man/people")   They were made by the creator god, Brahma to assist Rama (avatar of the god Vishnu).  Brahma also commanded other gods to create more Vanaras -- and they could take the form of either monkeys or bears, though they are mostly human looking with a few animal characteristics like the tail or fur.  Rama's life centers around his adherence to dharma, which has no one interpretation and can include "duty" "law" "conduct" "right way of living" despite all his trials and hardships.  Vanaras assist Rama in his battle against Ravana, a demon king of the Rakshasas, a race of "man eaters."  Rama also possesses magical weapons to aid him in this battle.  Ravana kidnapped Rama's wife Sita (avatar of Lakshmi and embodiment of a great and ideal woman) and Rama with his army of Vanaras and magic weapons rescues her.  The marriage between Rama and Sita had united two kingdoms and two peoples and mirrored the celestial marriage of the Vishnu and Lakshmi.  While maybe the kidnapping part doesn't fit, there's some broad stroke similarities to the "wildling princess" to marry to the Lord of Winterfell and unite two kingdoms, the Others, and a monkey-human/woman helper to our Rama, Jon Snow. 

There's nothing wrong either with seeing attraction between characters if there's text that supports it.  Let your fan-girl flag fly! ;)     

15 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

True, atleast in my opinion, that they are not trying to raid, but maybe reclaim something they may or may not know yet that they have a claim on. I believe it may be Timmet, Son of Timmet that could have an actual blood claim to the Eyrie??? Some of this may be slipping from my memory, which means time for a re-read!

I believe I read that somewhere too, but for the life of me I can't remember where.  **nevermind, that came from Sweet's essay you linked.  He might be an Arryn heir from the 4th Waynwood daughter that was kidnapped/wife-stolen, so Timett could be SR's heir ahead of Harold**  I'm just looking over the world book and there's some interesting stuff on how the Vale was taken from the First Men by the Andals.  History could repeat itself again here.  I'm just going to paraphrase a bunch because there's a lot.  The First Men of the Vale primarily lost against the Andal invasion because they were consumed with fighting among themselves and they failed to unite in common cause.  Some of them even tried to individually ally with the Andals to use them against other First Men.  Those that invited the Andals in got slaughtered for it.  The chief resistance to the Andals was lead by the Bronze King, Yorwyck VI (Royce) of Runestone.  His grandson, Robar II, took advantage of the in-fighting between the Andals (as the First Men had been taken advantage of) when they controlled 3/4 of the Vale.  Among Robar's allies were the Redforts, Hunters, Belmores, Coldwaters, as well as some smaller clans and houses.  Robar brought people to his cause with marriages, land grants, gold, and even an archery contest.  Petty kings set aside their crowns and bent the knee to him and declared Royce, High King of the Vale, the Fingers, and Mountains of the Moon.  He even had the allegiance of a reputed witch/sorceress Ursula Upcliff, "Bride of the Merling King."  Interestingly, Robar did not war on all Andals.  He made common cause with a few to bring down another Andal chief.  

Robar reportly slew Qyle Corbray, King of the Fingers, himself and claimed Lady Forlorn.  He took back the Fingers, Gulltown, and Ironoaks.  Finally the remaining Andals united behind a knight -- Ser Artys Arryn of pure Andal blood.  This is where you can tell there's a real pro-Andal bias.  The last battle between Robar and Artys took place at the foot of the Giant's Lance with the First Men on the highground.  Eventually they were attacked by Torgold Tollett (aka "Torgold the Grim"), a giant of a man and described almost like a berserker -- going into battle half-naked, laughing, a bloody star carved into his chest, and carrying two axes.  He took off Lord Redfort's arm at the shoulder and ripped off Ursula Upcliff's head with his bare hands.  @sweetsunray*** Hello!!! Broken arm!  Broken neck!  Hammer of the Waters!?! At the foot of the Giant's Lance!!!***  Robar slew Tollett with Lady Forlorn when the giant tried to grab the blade, but it sliced through his hands and buried in in Tollett's head.  House Tollett's words are When All is Darkest.  There could be some Lightbringer symbolism here.  @LmL ?  The two axes, usually crescent shaped, seem evocative of two moons.  HIs body bears the bloody star (the comet? Lightbringer?), but in this case it's Lady Forlorn that cleaves his skull open and stops him.  There's a heart-shaped ruby in the hilt of Lady Forlorn that's been pointing out a few times in the book I believe that could be significant.  Maybe LmL has a better interpretation than my clumsy one.  Sorry to get off track.  

Robar thought he also slew Artys Arryn, but it was actually one of his knights dressed up in Artys's spare armor.  The real Artys led an attack from behind coming down the slopes of the Giant's Lance and the First Men were defeated.  Many houses ended that day.  The survivors of houses Redforts, Hunters, Coldwaters, Belmores and Royces yielded gold, land, hostages, and swore fealty to the new king, Artys Arryn.  It gets even worse for the First Men.  Emboldened by their defeat, even more Andals swarmed to Westeros and demanded land in the Vale.  Some of the last remaining survivors of Andal resistance were driven into the mountains to become the Mountain Clans.  

So the Mountain Clan people are not just "wildlings."  They are decendents of the First Men nobility and kings in the Vale, forced to become raiders to survive after their land was stolen.  This makes me think the Runestone Royces could once again play a part in regaining control of the region.  I don't put much stock in Nestor or his son for the future, but Myranda Royce (like Alys Karstark) is a potential marriage option for solidifying a union of people.  She's desperately looking for a suitor she finds acceptable and she's not happy with her father's options right now.  Mya Stone could be a possibility as well.  Both have prejudices against them that don't fit well in their current culture.  In wildling culture, none of their sexual past or any non-traditional ways would be considered a negative.

Spoiler

Myranda stopped to gaze across the yard at the knights at their practice. “Now there’s the very sort of husband I need.”

She's looking at Lyn Corbray who has just been practice sparring in the yard and beat his opponent bloody.  Of course she knows Lyn is not interested in women and she doesn't have gold either to offer him, but it seems she does desire a fierce warrior for a husband, one who could defeat any unwanted suitor.  

Myranda Royce considered the victor thoughtfully.  “Do you think if I asked nicely Ser Lyn would kill my suitors for me?”

Sansa notes that if Lyn hadn't been using a practice sword, Ser Owen's would have had brains spilled.  Lyn is the current bearer of Lady Forlorn that was used to cleave Torgold Tollet's head.  Another little preview of what's about to go down maybe?

 

Plus there have been witches among the First Men of the Vale and maybe have some in the "present day."  It occured to me the area around the Bay of Crabs is a wet marshland.  Winter is coming.  Cold + wet = greyscale.  Maybe the Mountain Clan witches do know about greyscale?  I've read some theories that Dany could likely make her landing in the Vale as did the old invaders to Westeros and this makes me recall some theories about Tyrion.  Jon Connington contracted greyscale saving Tyrion from drowning while they were attacked by stone men.  Tyrion supposedly doesn't have it, but he was full of that questionable water when they saved him.  There's many references to Tyrion being a gargoyle that I can't help but think he could be turning to stone from the inside out.  That might be just my crackpot idea, but I think the threat of greyscale could come from Shireen, Jon Con, and maybe Tyrion too.  Maybe I'm just crazy, but:  gargoyle = stone dragon = greyscales = three heads of the dragon.  :unsure:

15 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The Hound is also a burned man. I think this aspect is very important to Sansa's arc.

Oh hell yes!  You know me and my crazy-but-maybe-not-so-crazy theory that Sansa is about to get her wolf-replacement back.  Especially if she's going to encounter the Burned Men and Timett.  The Burned Men measure bad-assery by the prominance of your body parts burned. Can you imagine the mad respect Sandor would get?  :laugh:  From the world book, that burning practice may have originated from the offshoot clan of the Painted Dogs that worshipped a fire-witch in the mountains who commanded a dragon.  They would have to brave the fires of the dragon to prove their courage and manhood.  Although Timett would know Sansa as Tyrion's wife from KL, I think it would be more of a name-drop for her rather than acknowleging legitimacy to her marriage.  I would probably safely assume that if this is a free folk culture, women and men are free to come and go as they please.  I would imagine "divorce" would be allowed and recognized.  I do think Tyrion will likely evolve his opinion on egalitarianism after meeting Dany.  Tyrion and Sansa will probably meet again, but I don't think either of them would hold on to their marriage.  I'm shipping it now:  Myranda Royce and Timett son of Timett :rofl:

               

Edited by Blue-Eyed Wolf

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@The Fattest Leech  Here's a little interesting parallel scene between Val in the North and Sansa in the Vale.

23 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

ASOS, Sansa VII, where she is in the "pure white world" of her snow castle scene.  This is Petyr coming upon her like Jon coming upon Val, although it's the creepier version:

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 "I wish you could see yourself, my lady. You are so beautiful. You're crusted over with snow like some little bear cub, but your face is flushed and you can scarcely breathe. How long have you been out here? You must be very cold. Let me warm you, Sansa. Take off those gloves, give me your hands."

Of course, Sansa's eyes are also blue.  Val is clad all in white and wearing a white bearskin.  Sansa is crusted with white snow and her fur cloak is actually white fox fur, not bearskin but she's compared to a bear cub.  She's a bear cub again in Alayne II, AFFC:

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Now she donned a lambswool overtunic and a hooded fur cloak, fastening it with an enameled mockingbird that had been a gift from Petyr. There was a scarf as well, and a pair of leather gloves lined with fur to match her riding boots. When she'd donned it all, she felt as fat and furry as a bear cubI will be glad of it on the mountain, she had to remind herself. She took one last look at her room before she left. I was safe here, she thought, but down below . . 

So Sansa is a mini-bear, or maybe a mini-Val, that might grow into a role similar to Val's in the North as a conduit for bringing freefolk and the rest of the kingdom together.  Of course we know she's not really safe in the Eyrie, just as it's no longer safe north of the Wall.  Val in the above scene has Jon's wolf, Ghost, with her and look like they "belong together."  Jon is a Burned Man with this hand, so highly likely IMO Sansa will have her Burned Man and Wolf with her ;)  Just sayin'.     

Edited by Blue-Eyed Wolf

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5 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

@The Fattest Leech  Here's a little interesting parallel scene between Val in the North and Sansa in the Vale.

ASOS, Sansa VII, where she is in the "pure white world" of her snow castle scene.  This is Petyr coming upon her like Jon coming upon Val, although it's the creepier version:

Of course, Sansa's eyes are also blue.  Val is clad all in white and wearing a white bearskin.  Sansa is crusted with white snow and her fur cloak is actually white fox fur, not bearskin but she's compared to a bear cub.  She's a bear cub again in Alayne II, AFFC:

So Sansa is a mini-bear, or maybe a mini-Val, that might grow into a role similar to Val's in the North as a conduit for bringing freefolk and the rest of the kingdom together.  Of course we know she's not really safe in the Eyrie, just as it's no longer safe north of the Wall.      

This is great!!!! I am at work right now so I can't reply fully yet, but this is a great comparison. I never really cared much for Sansa my first two reads, but I found the more I engaged in conversation about her, the more I understood her and came to like her. We see the Arya/Gendry connections to Jon and Val as a "junior" version of their experience and future, this is a great way to bring Sansa into that as well. 

I have been on Val for a while and I thought it would be a small, quick thread (hahaha), but I feel I may be ready to start diverging into someone else and Sansa may be it??? The connections aren't as clear as Arya's are, which I think is why Arya is talked about more and why Sansa threads always turn into one big argument about Lady at the Trident... and then the thread is locked. 

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4 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

@The Fattest Leech  Here's a little interesting parallel scene between Val in the North and Sansa in the Vale.

...

Ok. I just got home and started looking into a few Sansa things. Like I said before, I may need to do a full re-read in her chapters to remember all of it, mainly after she flees Kings Landing, but there is a lot of mirror imagery between the two arcs, Jon/Val and Sansa/Petyr/Vale, and I wouldn't mind discussing it in a new thread dedicated to that topic. I just looked for one in the Re-read resource page and could not find one dedicated to this particular topic.

One thing (of many) that is striking to me now is the similarities between the Twins and the Bloody Gate (I am sure this has been mentioned before) and how this mountainy area is like the Riverlands, of which both have a chance of a natural disaster to happen in the next books. Also, with Sansa (Alayne) going down to the Gates of the Moon, she is still a continuation of Sansa the moon maid.

And yes, the Vale Mountain Clans do also practice the gender equality thing and some of the clans had woman as leaders, which is good for Sansa if she is to be in charge there in any way. The Tyrion name drop won't hurt either because he did arm them ;). This also shows how possible it is that Val will lead, control, manage, whatever the wildings at Castle Black after the mutiny and until Jon is revived. They follow women. Hmmm, I am sensing a theme here, George! Making Parris proud :D

Edited by The Fattest Leech
Added link http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/132746-re-read-project-resource-page/

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On 8/10/2016 at 0:07 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

The origins of Myr are murkier. The Myrmen are believed by certain maesters to be akin to the Rhoynar,

 

On 8/10/2016 at 0:07 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

In summary, the mermen (myrmen) are the wildlings

I'm a work too, so I'm working off my phone but I had a thought about this.  I need to keep thinking about it further, but have you noticed the sounds and spellings of names that play on Rhoyne, Nymeria, and Myr in the Vale and in the North?  Royce, Myranda,  Mya, Meera Reed (water plant), Val and Vale.  There might be others, but I can't look right now, but they are young, strong, independent, marriagable women who would probably fit in very well with freefolk culture.  I'll probably edit this when I get home.

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15 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 

I'm a work too, so I'm working off my phone but I had a thought about this.  I need to keep thinking about it further, but have you noticed the sounds and spellings of names that play on Rhoyne, Nymeria, and Myr in the Vale and in the North?  Royce, Myranda,  Mya, Meera Reed (water plant), Val and Vale.  There might be others, but I can't look right now, but they are young, strong, independent, marriagable women who would probably fit in very well with freefolk culture.  I'll probably edit this when I get home.

Actually, I sorta have, a little. Interesting you noticed this too. When doing the research and reads for these particular points, I would have a few of these words/names/places pop up on screen. And then, hmmmm, why are they popping up? Are they connected? That tends to happen and tends to be why the "small" Val thread turned into this :lol:

Meria Martell is the ruler in Dorne that thwarts Queen Rhaenys when QR tries to conquer Dorne. Meria, as in Nymeria. George likes to do this connection thing, me thinks.

I am a fan of Mya Stone (who isn't?). Also Myranda Royce, to me, seems like the Sansa/Vale version of Nymeria's Druselka. Also, I think it was sweetsunray and I a few weeks ago noticed that much of what comes from Myr is not what it is supposed to be, a sort of betrayal in hiding. So that could be the difference between Mya Stone who is good, compared to Myranda Royce who is quite possibly setting up Sansa.

Vale/Val might be a coincidence because a vale is a valley or glen, however, that could be GRRM chose the term Vale instead of Glen...hmmmm...

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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Two things:

@Blue-Eyed Wolf here is a good thread that is still open that talks about the different aspects of Sansa (beyond just the incident at the Trident/Cersei's letter) @Seams has some good insight here.

Also, to bring things back around to Val and Jon, I updated the main post to include this bit of info as well. I hadn't realized it was not added yet and it seems fairly important for symbolism. The heraldry worn by Val:

Her personality fits with what Jon likes in a lady. Val even shares some of Lyanna's traits.

  • Jon calls Val, "lonely, lovely, lethal," and says Val is not "cowed" like the other woman at CB, and she stabbed three guards to protect herself.
  • Jon thinks of her as independent, "Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her."
  • Jon thinks to himself, "Like so much else, heraldry ended at the Wall,' but then he finds Val with the weirwood face brooch , she is in all white and Val's cheeks are flushed red. Jon Snow knows nothing! The ONLY other time we see a weirwood face being used as heraldry is with Lyanna in disguise as the Knight of the Laughing Tree where the shield is described as, "blazoned with the image of "a white weirwood with a laughing red face."

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21 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

That tends to happen and tends to be why the "small" Val thread turned into this :lol:

Meria Martell is the ruler in Dorne that thwarts Queen Rhaenys when QR tries to conquer Dorne. Meria, as in Nymeria. George likes to do this connection thing, me thinks.

I am a fan of Mya Stone (who isn't?). Also Myranda Royce, to me, seems like the Sansa/Vale version of Nymeria's Druselka. Also, I think it was sweetsunray and I a few weeks ago noticed that much of what comes from Myr is not what it is supposed to be, a sort of betrayal in hiding. So that could be the difference between Mya Stone who is good, compared to Myranda Royce who is quite possibly setting up Sansa.

Well as you said, Nymeria/Val is about the big picture that's going to affect all of Westeros. ;) DIdn't mean to lead your thread a little offtrack.  When I see a parallel, I can't unsee it and of course one thing leads to another and it's all related anyway lol.    

Love Mya. I'm rooting for her.  Her name as similar sounds with Arya, plus the Gendry/Mya Baratheon bastard connection.  I'm on the fence about Myranda.  There's also Myrtle.  Even Arya's alias Mercy. Ygritte or egret, the water bird.  There's the other free sister city of Lys:  Alys Karstark, Alys Waynwood, Lysa Tully, Lyanna Stark, Lyanna Mormont.  Sansa's alias of Alayne has similar sounds with Lyanna.  Even the three regions of the North, Vale and Riverlands are united by the marriage and children of river-women, Lysa and Catelyn.

And this gets back to Patchface's prophecy too about mermen eating starfish soup served up by crabs.  You make a great case relating mermen = Myrmen = freefolk/wildlings.  I do agree Mel is a top contender for the starfish. She's been compared to a red star many times.  Crabs being Stannis's armored men turning back to their old gods after Mel goes way too far.  I would probably also add the other starfish can be Andals, who as we've seen in the Andal invasion carved bloody red stars of the Seven into their bodies.  Patchface uses gendered language, but "men" can also be a generalized term to mean both men and women.  Crabs are not just water creatures, but they are animals that are closely related to the tides and tides are related to the Moon.  So anyone that follows Moon Maiden leadership could be her crabs.  Other animals that follow the Moon:  wolves and dogs (think howling at the moon).  Arya, a Moon Maid, leading her pack of wolves and will likely take back the Riverlands.  Moon Maid, Sansa, with her dog and probably the clans from the Mountains of the Moon.  A big reason the realm is so sick is partly because the Andals and the Seven stamped out egalitarianism among men and women of the First Men.  R'hllorism (at least Mel and Selyse's brand) isn't any better as it demands total obedience and zero tolerance for any other worship or thought.  Patchface's prophecy could have an overarching theme of returning First Men and freefolk values to the realm via the leadership and contributions of women.  Yeah, Parris should be proud ;)

**ADDING**  Also adding bears to the list of moon animals:  There's lots of real world mythology linking bears to the Moon.  Think also hibernation/survival in Winter and awakening/ressurection in Spring. Motherhood and defending her cubs.  Bear Island is led by the She-Bear women of House Mormont.  Val in her bearskin cloak.  Young women becoming bears:  Bear cub Sansa.  And Arya's mantra:  " ... Calm as still water, she told herself. Strong as a bear. Fierce as a wolverine..."  Male characters compared to bears usually have a Moon Maiden component to their story.    

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Her personality fits with what Jon likes in a lady. Val even shares some of Lyanna's traits.

  • Jon calls Val, "lonely, lovely, lethal," and says Val is not "cowed" like the other woman at CB, and she stabbed three guards to protect herself.
  • Jon thinks of her as independent, "Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her."
  • Jon thinks to himself, "Like so much else, heraldry ended at the Wall,' but then he finds Val with the weirwood face brooch , she is in all white and Val's cheeks are flushed red. Jon Snow knows nothing! The ONLY other time we see a weirwood face being used as heraldry is with Lyanna in disguise as the Knight of the Laughing Tree where the shield is described as, "blazoned with the image of "a white weirwood with a laughing red face."

This is gold right here!  Love it!  And Ghost with his weirwood looking face is standing right with her.  He does seem to be unconsciously attracted to women that are like Lyanna.  And hello!?! He saw Val in a tower and admired her:

Quote

The outside air seemed even colder than before. Across the castle, he could see candlelight shining from the windows of the King's Tower. Val stood on the tower roof, gazing up at the Wall. Stannis kept her closely penned in rooms above his own, but he did allow her to walk the battlements for exercise. She looks lonely, Jon thought.  Lonely, and lovely.

 Oh Jon!  You do know nothing.  What's very funny is his little bit of bias is showing here and maybe that George is actually playing with reader biases too if we take what Jon decided about Val at face value.  What Jon doesn't know is Lyanna was in a tower and her brother did try to rescue her, but she was likely hoping it would be Rhaegar who would come back for her.  And while all that warrior princess stuff about Lyanna is true, she was also a romantic who was moved to tears by Rhaegar's music and likely ran off with him.  Sensitivity and romanticism is not mutually exclusive with being a warrior or tough girl/guy and I love George for that.  While Val knows how to defend herself and she's tough, she's primarily a healer, a seer, a wise-woman, and a leader.  Jon is deciding that she's a warrior to suit his own little fantasy in his head.  :rolleyes:  

 And I'm reading that other thread you linked.              

Edited by Blue-Eyed Wolf

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On 16/11/2016 at 4:29 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Uummm, yes, why yes I do want to say those words. :devil:

:devil:

On 16/11/2016 at 4:29 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Oooh girl, I didn't go there with JRRT, but I love this connection. It shows a common theme amongst great authors.

ADDING: Now that I think about it, Galadriel and Val have a lot in common as well, including a birth in trees and not naming herself a queen (or something like that. It has been a long, long time since I've read those stories).

ADDING AGAIN: Ok, just gonna put this here for anyone to read. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Galadriel

The funny thing is that I don't particularly like Galadriel but yet she has way too many similarities with Val. Val shares also some similarities with Gandalf. Yes, I said it :smug:. From the connections to the Gods, to their mission and of course last but not least while Gandalf said;

Quote

Look to my coming, at first light, on the fifth day. At dawn, look to the East.

Val said;

Quote

Look for me on the first day of the full moon

On 16/11/2016 at 4:29 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

 I love the way he describes Val. Jon is never crass about her and he has respect for her and her culture. That is frickin' hot!

I think that the difference between how he sees Val and how he sees Ygritte is the same when someone has a crush and when he has find the love of his life. The crush is much more superficial when the love is so much more.

On 16/11/2016 at 4:29 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

This Ser Patrek thing cracks me up. Every time I talk about it, something new pops up with the Jon-married-Val connection. And I love that Ser Patrek was a friend of George's whom George lost a bet to in real life :lmao:

Jon knows something by this point in the story. It is just that people aren't listening to him very well.

Poor Ser Patrek he had bitten off more than he could chew.

On 16/11/2016 at 8:10 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Sansa will have her Burned Man and Wolf with her ;)  Just sayin'.     

By wolf you mean all kinds of canis?

Edited by Jon's Queen Consort

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1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

By wolf you mean all kinds of canis?

Oh yes.  Well we have to see if the Hound/dog persona is truly dead.  There's many positive attributes to the dog, but it's a servant/domesticated animal.  The Hound persona comes with a great deal of pain and suffering.  Sansa wishes the old, blind dog were Lady, her wolf, her spiritual partner.  Slightly different, but one is elevated to a higher level and an equal.  The wolf being the ancestral root of domestic dogs is a metaphor for going back to First Men culture and roots.  I mean, Sandor just looks like a displaced First Man by his appearance and would probably fit in better in that culture.  There's no knighthood among First Men ;)   

Annnnnnnnndddddd quickly getting back to Val before Fattest Leech kills me :eek:  

Edited by Blue-Eyed Wolf

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6 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Oh yes.  Well we have to see if the Hound/dog persona is truly dead.  There's many positive attributes to the dog, but it's a servant/domesticated animal.  The Hound persona comes with a great deal of pain and suffering.  Sansa wishes the old, blind dog were Lady, her wolf, her spiritual partner.  Slightly different, but one is elevated to a higher level and an equal.  The wolf being the ancestral root of domestic dogs is a metaphor for going back to First Men culture and roots.  I mean, Sandor just looks like a displaced First Man by his appearance and would probably fit in better in that culture.  There's no knighthood among First Men ;)   

Annnnnnnnndddddd quickly getting back to Val before Fattest Leech kills me :eek:  

:whip:Back on topic :tantrum:

Ahahaa. No, I don't mind because in my thinking this actually shows that what is happening in one area is also being mirrored in another. That gives it some credence in my opinion because we already see this with Jon/Dany, Bran/Arya parallels as well.

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Hi @The Fattest Leech

I havn't read the entire thread, because it has litterally taken me all day to read teh OP. But I just wanted to thank you for pointing me in the direction of this thread and introducing me to you work. I was very impressed indeed by the OP and am pretty much in agreement with it. 

I'll maybe try to get the rest of the thread read at some point and see if I have any ideas. 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Hi @The Fattest Leech

I havn't read the entire thread, because it has litterally taken me all day to read teh OP. But I just wanted to thank you for pointing me in the direction of this thread and introducing me to you work. I was very impressed indeed by the OP and am pretty much in agreement with it. 

I'll maybe try to get the rest of the thread read at some point and see if I have any ideas. 

 

 

 

AHhaaa. I know it is A LOT of reading. Take your time and thank you for making it this far :cheers: I know you are a pretty perceptive poster, so I await your feedback.

The next part that I really want to keep moving into is Jon after stabbing and his healing and later rule. But there is this obnoxious thing called work and family and stuff that keeps slowing me down :lol:

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Just wanted to let you know that I have finished reading the thread, at last! There is a lot of really interesting stuff here, and I really like it. I agree completely that Val is a seer/healer/spiritual conduit and I can't wait to see what she does. I think she will perhaps be one of the people who stop the kick off after Jon's stabbing. She has the authority with the wildlings I think. And I think she will be able to speak to Wun Wun too, a person of her standing in her role would speak the old tongue I think. 

I don't think Jon is dead either and I think she will help to heal him. 

I really like your Nymeria paralels. And I am also fascinated by what the Mountain clans may do. Indeed I think Timmet is the descendant of Alys Arryn's kidnapped daughter. And the possibilities there are interesting. 

I'm loving the Norse mythology aspects and Am going to think on all of this for a bit. I don't think I have anything yet, to add I mean. but I'm gonna have a good think. 

Oh, I think personally that Boraq will be Jon's guide in his warging education, Jon has thus far denied and hidden his Warg side, and yet he is entering a segment of the story where Jon has to get to grips with his talent. The fact that a skinchanger has been introduced to the story at this point too tells me one thing. Jon's found his teacher. 

 

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6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

...snipped...

Oh, I think personally that Boraq will be Jon's guide in his warging education, Jon has thus far denied and hidden his Warg side, and yet he is entering a segment of the story where Jon has to get to grips with his talent. The fact that a skinchanger has been introduced to the story at this point too tells me one thing. Jon's found his teacher. 

 

Thanks for reading it through. The Nymeria part just floored me. I had no idea until I really compared the two situations and people.

I agree with this. This scene in Dance when Borroq is first passing through is telling

  • The skinchanger stopped ten yards away. His monster pawed at the mud, snuffling. A light powdering of snow covered the boar's humped black back. He gave a snort and lowered his head, and for half a heartbeat Jon thought he was about to charge. To either side of him, his men lowered their spears.
    "Brother," Borroq said.
paired with what is observed of Jon way, way back in AGOT
  • "Lord Eddard Stark is my father," Jon admitted stiffly.
Lannister studied his face. "Yes," he said. "I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
"Half brothers," Jon corrected. He was pleased by the dwarf's comment, but he tried not to let it show.
 
Jon has his Stark (half) brothers, and his black blooded brothers, and now his skinchanger/warg brothers. The likes of Borroq, Morna, Tormund and Val are all brought into Jon's life just as he needs them, as is the Waif for Arya, Mya or Myranda(?) for Sansa, Jojen for Bran... Osha for Rickon???
I am thinking Borroq will know the signs to what happened to Jon after the mutiny, and Val and Morna and maybe Tormund will take control of the situation and work to heal Jon's body while Borroq helps to either deal with Ghost, or Jon somehow???
Thank you for your input!
Also, I am going to start working on Not-so-Good Queen Alysanne next because I think too many readers just take that situation at face value because of a few lines we are told, and the fact that the word "good" was added to her moniker. Much of what she and Jeahaerys did is being unraveled in the current story because as it turns out it wasn't so good in the long run.

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