The Fattest Leech

Nymeria is poised to return

116 posts in this topic

10 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Denys is a strange one in this theory. Unfortunately, as soon as I went to post this, the damned quoter did something really weird ans deleted just half the post and I had to try and remember what I had written :angry: Anyway, I did talk a little more about Denys.

IF this is in anyway true, then maybe it would help calm the rage Denys appears to have towards the free folk. I don't think the Weeper is going to help anytime soon, so who knows in this case.

However, I did also think that Denys could have fathered a child on a free folk filly. We know the boys at Castle Black go to Mole's Town and the uppers at CB just turn a blind eye. Maybe something similar happens at Shadow Tower?

Denys has been at Shadow Tower for 33 years. Val is suspected to be around 19-22 (based on different book sources).

According to the wiki, Denys has an unknown/unnamed brother who is Jason's father. And in turn, Jason has a brother, Jeffory Mallsiter, who died in King's Landing when he went with Brandon to face the accusations of treason. Jeffory Mallister was killed then.

I am sure the Shadow Tower has no issue turning a blind eye to the indiscretions of some of its members. Also not knowing Val's age has always made theorizing about her hard to me.

Also the Weeper is noted for stealing daughters, maybe Denys stole his daughter and this is just the cycle of revenge going on and on...

 

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Posted (edited)

@The Doctor's Consort @Julia H. @bemused @The Weirwoods Eyes @Blue-Eyed Wolf @GloubieBoulga

I just posted a crackpot last evening and wanted to get some additional feedback to what has been talked about a tad already.

Plausible? Do I just need more coffee? :cheers:

p.s.

I hope I didn't forget anyone. Sorry if I did.

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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It is interesting, and not something which I have seen posed before. it has been suggested that Val is in someway a Wildling theft from south of the wall. Due to her speech and the suggestion she knows what Maester's think. 

I'm interested in your crackpot and am gonna look into the Mallister's a bit more. I will post again once I've had a good snoop. 

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Posted (edited)

On 24/4/2017 at 6:03 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

@The Doctor's Consort @Julia H. @bemused @The Weirwoods Eyes @Blue-Eyed Wolf

I just posted a crackpot last evening and wanted to get some additional feedback to what has been talked about a tad already.

Plausible? Do I just need more coffee? :cheers:

Thank you for that! 

On 24/4/2017 at 5:57 AM, The Fattest Leech said:
So, to wrap this up. I am speculating that Val (and maybe Dalla) are at least half Mallister, maybe raised south of the wall and defected north (maybe for woods witch training?) and that is why Val tends to have different mannerisms and speech than other free folk. Mance did say that he found Dalla (and Val) as returned to the lands beyond the wall, but where exactly did he find them? South of the wall? The author left this info curiously vague.
 
This would also explain how Val knows what a maester would think about curing greyscale, and how she knows what a woods witch knows to be actually correct. She has experience with both.
 
Val has a reason for being both learned sounding in speech, and physically able to be seen in any court in the world, everyone insists she is a princess, and yet also lonely, lovely and lethal, and more capable of surviving alone in tough terrain north of the wall.
 
 
Val is the "improved model" of both north and south.
 

My pet theory is that Val and Dalla, if she is really her sister, are not smallfolk. But I always thought that she came from the Umbers I had never thought about the Mallisters. Your theory is very well thought and created but I am still not sure about the Mallisters, mostly because they are Andals. But I could see her being a noble, trueborn or not, being raised Beyond the Wall in order to be trained. Which is something that had been happened before in GoT: telltale.

Edited by The Doctor's Consort

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1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

It is interesting, and not something which I have seen posed before. it has been suggested that Val is in someway a Wildling theft from south of the wall. Due to her speech and the suggestion she knows what Maester's think. 

I'm interested in your crackpot and am gonna look into the Mallister's a bit more. I will post again once I've had a good snoop. 

No problem and no rush for crackpots. Thanks for taking a look.

3 minutes ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Thank you for that! 

My pet theory is that Val and Dalla, if she is really her sister, is not a smallfolk. But I always thought that she came from the Umbers I had never thought about the Mallisters. Your theory is very well thought and created but I am still not sure about the Mallisters, mostly because they are Andals. But I could see her being a noble, trueborn or not, being raised Beyond the Wall in order to be trained. Which is something that had been happened before in GoT: telltale.

I agree that Val seems like she has a different birth or partial upbringing to many other free folk/wildling. There were just a few things that stood out to me, but I guess maybe if we squint hard enough we can find clues to lots of things that aren't there ;)

I had a few other thoughts on this, but yeah, the Umber story is interesting as well. Thanks for taking a peek.

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I wish i could believe in all this, but what bothers me is that Val doesn't have a POV and she appeared only half way through the series.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@The Doctor's Consort @Julia H. @bemused @The Weirwoods Eyes @Blue-Eyed Wolf @GloubieBoulga

I just posted a crackpot last evening and wanted to get some additional feedback to what has been talked about a tad already.

Plausible? Do I just need more coffee? :cheers:

p.s.

I hope I didn't forget anyone. Sorry if I did.

I was just reading your post this afternoon, before you asked for my advice, and I vote for a good night more than for a coffee ^^

More seriously, I was wondering if Val being same family/blood than Mallister could bring more sense to the story, and I can't see the "bonus". But after reflexion, you pointed some common points, so if I'm not convinced yet with a real "common bloodfamily", there can be some common symbollic part, and perhaps they can represent some archetypes who are linked (with "archetype", I mean original characters of an original and ancient scenario, which tells the origins of the Stark of Winterfell, of Winterfell castle, of the Wall, and of course of the Others and Long Night). One of the archetypes I have found is a maiden - daughter of a "bear king" - who wanted a Stark's bastard but was married to a legitime (officialy) Stark (of Winterfell) after the death of the bastard. The color brown is associated with the bear (the color black too), for example in the song "the bear and the fair maiden", or in AGOT Eddard II when Robert is compared to a bear and wears brown gloves (there are many other example for the association brown-bear). 

The grey is for the Starks and the dead kingdom, the shadows and phantoms. It is not a real color in the saga, but the "color" of faded and dead things. So the brown and grey pelt could show Val as the "girl" of a dead king (as archetype, obviously). 

I see Val as a double of Dalla, I mean they both play same archetype but at different moments of the "original story" and with different possible issues. Dalla's baby saved by Jon make me imagine that there was perhaps in the far past a baby who was killed - just like Cersei orders to kill Robert's children, even if they are babies. 

So... I can't say much more for the moment, because I never seriously looked at the part played by the Mallisters. The only thing that come to my mind is about the name "Jason", who was a hero of greek mythology, who looked for the golden pelt of a ram and found it. The ram had a name "chrysomallos" (chrysos significate gold, in greek; and "mallos" significate wool; so the name of the ram is the exact sense of "golden pelt"), he had wings and  was a symbol of fecondity. So there is perhaps a pun with Jason Mallister (Denys is also a name of greek origin : the original version is Dionysos; Denys is latin and short version, but I'm here talking only for the name, not for the god Dionysos who has his latin "equivalent" as Bacchus). And the ram/goat/lamb/sheep are playing a big part in the saga. And are linked to the bear's theme. Honestly, I can't say if it is totally intentional and calculated by GRRM. 

I don't know if I have helped, but there were the ideas that came to my mind ! ^^

 

Edit and Add-on about the hero Jason, who was linked to the sea with his companions, the "Argonauts".

Edited by GloubieBoulga

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19 minutes ago, RevaM said:

I wish i could believe in all this, but what bothers me is that Val doesn't have a POV and she appeared only half way through the series.

I'm in my phone so this will be short. 

First, thanks for reading all of it, I know it is long and can be exhaustive on first read. 

Also, George has said in many interviews that the cast will change. New people will come in as needed. We readers did not need Val in the beginning because we had to learn a few in-world things first. Enter Ygritte, story teller Nan of the north. So once that stage was set, enter Val. 

Also also, George said once that he won't give a POV to a king or key player like Littlefinger because they have too much information and would spoil the plot. As a writer myself, I can understand that concept and the need to hold back information until the story requires the reveal. 

Also also also, we see the "glimpse" of where Val is in the close of Jon's chapters in the second book. Val was introduced in Jon's first chapter in the third book, so really not that long ago far as the story timeline goes. For us readers it has been more than a decade, yes, but I prefer a good story rather than a rushed one :cheers:

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@GloubieBoulga  Thanks for the read and reply. I'm on my phone but will get back to you when I am back at my computer. 

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Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

I'm in my phone so this will be short. 

First, thanks for reading all of it, I know it is long and can be exhaustive on first read. 

Also, George has said in many interviews that the cast will change. New people will come in as needed. We readers did not need Val in the beginning because we had to learn a few in-world things first. Enter Ygritte, story teller Nan of the north. So once that stage was set, enter Val. 

Also also, George said once that he won't give a POV to a king or key player like Littlefinger because they have too much information and would spoil the plot. As a writer myself, I can understand that concept and the need to hold back information until the story requires the reveal. 

Also also also, we see the "glimpse" of where Val is in the close of Jon's chapters in the second book. Val was introduced in Jon's first chapter in the third book, so really not that long ago far as the story timeline goes. For us readers it has been more than a decade, yes, but I prefer a good story rather than a rushed one :cheers:

Yes, some characters like Varys/Littlefinger shouldn't be given a POV because they know way too much.

But tbh after ygritte and robb(who also didn't have a POV), i don't think I can bear to lose another non-POV fave.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

@The Fattest Leech  Well considering your track record for laying out a very reasonable and well thought overarching theory for Val and Jon, I'm gonna say this has credibility.  Val is special for many reasons, but I hadn't really paid much attention to her manner of speech before.

18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

However, I did also think that Denys could have fathered a child on a free folk filly. We know the boys at Castle Black go to Mole's Town and the uppers at CB just turn a blind eye. Maybe something similar happens at Shadow Tower?

^^^ This doesn't quite add up with her speech sounding much more educated and highborn leaning.  I'm not sure this is the answer to the mystery.

Can Jason Mallister's silver winged helm tell us anything significant?  I know the Greek mythology connection to Jason and Denys has been made, so the helm is a little evocative of Hermes.  Also winged helm sounds a little stereotypical Valkyrie-ish maybe?  Jason is a "pallbearer" at Hoster Tully's funeral, specifically being one of the two that wades into the water to guide the burial boat into the river.  The Mallister's have longboats and the Riverland funeral practices are very Viking-esque.  You've already laid out tons of Norse connections around Val.  I'm just riffing here.  I haven't had time to really research.

Jason also played a key role in the defense of Seaguard by slaying Balon Greyjoy's heir.  So there's a Mallister helping to resist a rebellion kinda like Val is probably going to do at the Wall.  Mallister longboats will carry Robb's Will (his intended instructions for rule in case he dies) in by two people:   Maege Mormont and Galbert Glover.  Maege is a she-bear like Val is a she-bear.  I wonder if we can make a Glover connection to Val too?  Because Val is the carrier of Jon's word and she knows his intentions as LC.  Her breath "mingled" with his.  Val's word is Jon's word.   

*Edit*  House Glover's sigil is a silver mailed fist on red.  Jason ushered Hoster Tully's funeral boat into the water along side Tytos Blackwood of the raven feather cloak.  Not sure if this helps, but maybe.  :dunno:    

 

Edited by Blue-Eyed Wolf

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@Blue-Eyed Wolf this is really good stuff. Some of it is similar to what I had written before the quoter ate half of my crackpot idea. I decided not to add some things back in to, #1, see if others noticed them first, and #2, keep my post short because my Val posts tend to get incredibly long :lol:

I only have a quick minute (gotta make the donuts) but I want to touch on a few points when I have more time later this evening.

Hermes. Perfect! Hermes is the messenger of the gods :cheers:

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Posted (edited)

I am not sure if I have said it before but in any case I know that this sounds crazy but please, please, humor me and tell me what you think

In TWOIAF;

Quote

 The Rhoynar tell of a darkness that made the Rhoyne of Essos dwindle and disappear, her waters frozen as far south as the joining of the Selhoru, until a hero convinced the many children of Mother Rhoyne, such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River, to put aside their bickering and join in a secret song that brought back the day.

A Hero convinced the Rhoynar to sing a secret song in order to bring dawn back.

Now, which other race in GRRTH is known for their singing? Methinks that those who sing the song of earth.

The question now is where do the CotFs live or at least have the most influence? I believe in two places one is Neck and Beyond the Wall.

From the crannogmen we have the Meera’s and Jojen’s oath

And from a priestess of the old gods;  
 

Quote

[Jon] I have heard you singing to him.

[Val] I was singing to myself. 

Jon was the one who sent Val to bring Tormund and who will unite the humanity against the Others.
 

Edited by The Doctor's Consort
Resurrection post.

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7 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

I am not sure if I have said it before but in any case I know that this sounds crazy but please, please, humor me and tell me what you think

Of course! I come up with all sorts of random thought and ideas all of the time. And sometimes they actually work out!

 

7 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

In TWOIAF;

 The Rhoynar tell of a darkness that made the Rhoyne of Essos dwindle and disappear, her waters frozen as far south as the joining of the Selhoru, until a hero convinced the many children of Mother Rhoyne, such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River, to put aside their bickering and join in a secret song that brought back the day.

Funny enough, this line here has always made me reconsider the idea of how the Others could get around the wall. Well, maybe not all of them, but the dead things in/on the water at the Bay of Seals , and maybe over at the Bay of Ice, as well can also pass over the solid parts of the two bays when they freeze.

Yeah. I tend to think that Stannis is the crab king (I laid it out somewhere in this thread) and Jon is the Old Man of the RIver and for a while longer at least, the two will continue working together. We have heard a few times in the story how Jon is older and/or wiser than his years, so the "Old" part fits Jon perfectly. And we have seen how Jon connects to the water, especially the river, and it works seamlessly with this tale.

 
  • "Ass," Jon muttered, low enough so Greyjoy did not hear. He put a hand on Bran's shoulder, and Bran looked over at his bastard brother. "You did well," Jon told him solemnly. Jon was fourteen, an old hand at justice.
  • Jon looked her over with all his fourteen-year-old wisdom.
  • not to mention Jon's connection to the Old Gods themselves

Stannis put trust in the free folk at this point, and he has been relatively happy with Jon so far (as happy as Stannis can show it), so I think these two can work well together for a while longer.

7 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

A Hero convinced the Rhoynar to sing a secret song in order to bring dawn back.

Yup. Val has been caught singing and she is very leery of Mel's magic. That hero is most likely Jon, but then again, I also think Tormund will play a big part on saving the day (literally saving the day) so he could fill in for Jon if the situation requires him to do so. He is also the Speaker to Gods, and the gods are the trees, and therefore Tormund could help spread the word of the trouble going on.

Maybe. Just an idea, though.

7 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Now, which other race in GRRTH is known for their singing? Methinks that those who sing the song of earth.

 

7 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

The question now is where do the CotFs live or at least have the most influence? I believe in two places one is Neck and Beyond the Wall.

This makes me wonder that if there is a connected weirnet, and all the information is stored in some way for others to access it when they call upon it, I wonder if these two places (maybe three IF they are also in the Reach), I wonder if the CotF in these places will "sing together" once they learn what is happening with the Others, and they pass that info along. Am I making any sense??? This is kind of what I was talking about above with Tormund. It is late here and I have not thought it out totally (sorry), but it is good that you brought it up.

7 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

From the crannogmen we have the Meera’s and Jojen’s oath

You know what is kind of funny, all three Stark boys are guarded guided by a spearwife type. That cannot be a coincidence.

7 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

And from a priestess of the old gods;  
 

Jon was the one who sent Val to bring Tormund and who will unite the humanity against the Others.
 

Yeah, GRRM has Jon and Val acting out the "strengthening two sides to make something stronger" theme big time. The opposite of extremism, which never wins in the end.

And I will say it is a much better option than dividing up thousands of people only for half of them to become the army of the dead. As Jojen says, "By night all cloaks are black, Your Grace." That means more than just it is dark and the cloaks are dark. It means that in the Long Night, everyone must be ready to fight to bring back the sun.

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This is a work in progress.

Just putting this here to work on later so that I can link to it from the main post in this thread.

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys VI

"Taint?" Dany bristled.
"I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books. But every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land."
 
Daenerys = Denerius, a silver coin (faceless god/god of many faces?)
Pyramid w flames on top, Citadel beacon with flames on top.
 
Saegaal, Simon Kress (w/lightbringer), Bakkalon the Pale Child, the tiger woman (Volantis).
 
William Darry, House Darry, cart king,
  • "I am only a young girl and know little of the ways of war," she told Lord Ghael, "but we have heard that Astapor is starving. Let King Cleon feed his people before he leads them out to battle." She made a gesture of dismissal. Ghael withdrew.
  • Her hair had burned away in Drogo's pyre, so her handmaids garbed her in the skin of the hrakkar Drogo had slain, the white lion of the Dothraki sea.
  • blood of Valyria still runs strong in Lys, where even the smallfolk oft boast pale skin, silver-gold hair, and the purple, lilac, and pale blue eyes of the dragonlords of old.
  • Bakkalon's sword into ploughshares, turns back on children, wants to war instead of peace (tiger woman/ Volantis)
 
 
  • That made Daenerys laugh, coming from a girl so small. She relied so much on the little scribe that she oft forgot that Missandei had only turned eleven. They shared the food together on her terrace. As Dany nibbled on an olive, the Naathi girl gazed at her with eyes like molten gold and said, "It is not too late to tell them that you have decided not to wed."
  • The sound Viserys Targaryen made when that hideous iron helmet covered his face was like nothing human. His feet hammered a frantic beat against the dirt floor, slowed, stopped. Thick globs of molten gold dripped down onto his chest, setting the scarlet silk to smoldering … yet no drop of blood was spilled.
  • The sun burned like molten gold, and the land was seared and empty.
 
 

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Posted (edited)

*Work in progress. Putting this here to work on later*

Laren stopped, and his eyes woke up again. “Ah, Sharra,” he said. “Be careful how you go. Even your crown will not help you should they move on you directly. And the pale child Bakkalon will tear at you, and Naa-Slas feed upon your pain, and Saagael on your soul.” She shivered, and cut another piece of meat.

-

“She is one of the people of the ring-of-stone,” neKrol said quickly. “She has lived with me.” DaHan nodded. “I understand. You are truly a godless man, neKrol, to consort so with soulless animals, to teach them to ape the ways of the seed of Earth. But it does not matter.” He raised his arm in signal; behind him, among the trees, the blastcannon of the powerwagon moved slightly to the right. “You and your pet should move at once,” DaHan told neKrol. “When I lower my arm, the Jaenshi god will burn and if you stand in the way, you will never move again.” “The talkers!” neKrol protested, “the blast will—” and he started to turn to show them. But the talkers were crawling away from the pyramid, one by one. Behind him, the Angels were muttering. “A miracle!” one said hoarsely. “Our child! Our Lord!” cried another. NeKrol stood paralyzed. The pyramid on the rock was no longer a reddish slab. Now it sparkled in the sunlight, a canopy of transparent crystal. And below that canopy, perfect in every detail, the pale child Bakkalon stood smiling, with his Demon-Reaver in his hand. The Jaenshi talkers were scrambling from it now, tripping in the water in their haste to be away. NeKrol glimpsed the old talker, running faster than any despite his age. Even he seemed not to understand. The bitter speaker stood open-mouthed.

-

There was more discussion, but the tone had been set; most of the speakers backed DaHan. Wyatt listened carefully, and all the while prayed to Bakkalon for guidance. Finally he motioned for quiet. “Squadfather,” he said to Walman, “tomorrow collect all the Jaenshi—both adults and children—that you can, but do not hang them if they are unresisting. Instead, take them to the city, and show them their clanmates on our walls. Then cast them from the valley, one in each direction of the compass.” He bowed his head. “It is my hope that they will carry a message, to all the Jaenshi, of the price that must be paid when a beast raises hand or claw or blade against the seed of Earth. Then, when the spring comes and the children of Bakkalon move beyond Sword Valley, the Jaenshi will peacefully abandon their pyramids and quit whatever lands men may require, so the glory of the pale child might be spread.” Lyon and DaHan both nodded, among others. “Speak wisdom to us,” Fieldbishop Dhallis said then. Proctor Wyatt agreed. One of the lesser-ranking squadmothers brought him the Book, and he opened it to the Chapter of Teachings. “In those days much evil had come upon the seed of Earth,” the Proctor read, “for the children of Bakkalon had abandoned Him to bow to softer gods. So their skies grew dark and upon them from above came the Sons of Hranga with red eyes and demon teeth, and upon them from below came the vast Horde of Fyndii like a cloud of locusts that blotted out the stars. And the worlds flamed, and the children cried out, ‘Save us! Save us!’ “And the pale child came and stood before them, with His great sword in His hand, and in a voice like thunder He rebuked them. ‘You have been weak children,’ He told them, ‘for you have disobeyed. Where are your swords? Did I not set swords in your hands?’ “And the children cried out, ‘We have beaten them into plowshares, oh Bakkalon!’ “And He was sore angry. ‘With plowshares, then, shall you face the Sons of Hranga! With plowshares shall you slay the Horde of Fyndii?’ And He left them, and heard no more their weeping, for the Heart of Bakkalon is a Heart of Fire. “But then one among the seed of Earth dried his tears, for the skies did burn so bright that they ran scalding on his cheeks. And the bloodlust rose in him and he beat his plowshare back into a sword, and charged the Sons of Hranga, slaying as he went. The others saw, and followed, and a great battle cry rang across the worlds. “And the pale child heard, and came again, for the sound of battle is more pleasing to his ears than the sound of wails. And when He saw, He smiled. ‘Now you are my children again,’ He said to the seed of Earth. ‘For you had turned against me to worship a god who calls himself a lamb, but did you not know that lambs go only to the slaughter? Yet now your eyes have cleared, and again you are the Wolves of God!’ “And Bakkalon gave them all swords again, all His children and all the seed of Earth, and He lifted his great black blade, the Demon-Reaver that slays the soulless, and swung it. And the Sons of Hranga fell before His might, and the great Horde that was the Fyndii burned beneath His gaze. And the children of Bakkalon swept across the worlds.” The Proctor lifted his eyes. “Go, my brothers-in-arms, and think on the Teachings of Bakkalon as you sleep. May the pale child grant you visions!” They were dismissed.

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys X 

"It is such a long way," she complained. "I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl."
No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words. 
"Fire and Blood," Daenerys told the swaying grass.
Edited by The Fattest Leech

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