Grizzly A Mormont

Where is Howland Reed?

50 posts in this topic

52 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Absolutely! Gods yes! Jon knowing that would be amazing. I still get weepy (Still !) when I read Jon's last chapter and knowing what he doesn't know but is desperately searching for = his identity.

For him to know that he was wanted, was needed and not a bastard would be amazing. I don't think he would let it go to his head, his father taught him honor, but he would have some inner peace.

I don't know that I have any faith left in me to think that the showrunners can or will show this emotion. Everything is so damn stabby-stabby without reason.

That's true. I just remember that scene in season 1, where he asked Ned who his mother is, he was going to the Wall, and he wanted to know, would she care?

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Don't think we will either see Howland or Rhaegar in the show. They're not that important for the (show)story... In the books we'll definitely see Howland make an appearance...

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Things are in your face=complaints

Things are more subtle=complaints

As always damned if they don't, damned if they do.

RLJ has been established well on the show. It's a simple case of putting 2 and 2 together. Those who can't do it, the fault lies with them. There have been mentions of R+L a few times each season, Robert has been established to have really despised Targaryens and was shown talking about killing them all if he got the chance, that combined with Lyanna talking about Robert killing her baby if he knew the truth make the child's origins abundantly clear. But the clues don't stop there, we have the first part of the Tower of Joy flashback that has Arthur flat out say they are there on Prince Rhaegar's orders. That combined with the established tale of Rhaegar 'kidnapping and raping' Lyanna make the baby revelation clear. The mere presence of Targaryen Kingsguard (the showrunners even put the Targ sigil on their armour to make it clear to the casuals) gives it away.

Anything more would be a case of spoonfeeding. Like have Rhaegar fuck Lyanna on screen then have Lyanna say out loud  'this is Jon Snow, future Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, he is Rhaegar's son, I have just given birth to him, take care of him as your own bastard'. Maybe then it'd be clear to everyone. Don't think they had the time and budget for any overt Jon is Rhaegar's clues.  

 

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9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I know it's been a day or so, I have been on the road a lot-lot.

I figured ol'Two-Eyes and Bran name dropped HR because tv-only viewers may not remember way back in season 2(?) when we first met the Reed kids, who their father is. It was supposed to be more of a reminder rather than foreshadowing.

 

Well, definitely the possibility is there. But Meera had a great impact on me before reading the books. I find it difficult to believe that they are making viewers remember her origins....<_<:bang:

I'd say people who don't remember it, re-watch the show!!

So, I see the possibility, but I think it's more foreshadowing than that. (Or maybe it's nothing: they just didnn't know shich dialogue to write).

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10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Absolutely! Gods yes! Jon knowing that would be amazing. I still get weepy (Still !) when I read Jon's last chapter and knowing what he doesn't know but is desperately searching for = his identity.

For him to know that he was wanted, was needed and not a bastard would be amazing. I don't think he would let it go to his head, his father taught him honor, but he would have some inner peace.

I don't know that I have any faith left in me to think that the showrunners can or will show this emotion. Everything is so damn stabby-stabby without reason.

I agree. Shoot, I got weepy just reading your post!

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On ‎29‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 6:41 PM, Lord Lannister said:

Really? With Bran making doing his time travel tv and heading south now, I figured Howland's role as the one to make the big reveal was pretty much nixed.

Bran is obviously now the master of exposition but in terms of actually telling people its a bit more questionable as we don't know whether he's going to meet Jon or indeed anyone connected to him anytime soon. It could well be that the story needs him to remain separate from the other characters for awhile longer but needs Jon to know his background sooner.

Another way things could develop I spose is that Howland Reed doesn't tell Jon of his background he tells someone else further south away from Bran, maybe Dany or someone connected with her to try and avert conflict between them?

Edited by MoreOrLess

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Well, there was confusion, and they posted an infographic about R+L=J.

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4 hours ago, MoreOrLess said:

Bran is obviously now the master of exposition but in terms of actually telling people its a bit more questionable as we don't know whether he's going to meet Jon or indeed anyone connected to him anytime soon. It could well be that the story needs him to remain separate from the other characters for awhile longer but needs Jon to know his background sooner.

Another way things could develop I spose is that Howland Reed doesn't tell Jon of his background he tells someone else further south away from Bran, maybe Dany or someone connected with her to try and avert conflict between them?

Bran's at the heart tree where Jon and Sam took their vows. So he's within spitting distance of Castle Black. With 14 episodes left, I would imagine they're not going to over complicate things. If Bran still has to do something beyond the Wall it's not as if we haven't seen characters span continents in short periods of time to serve the needs of the plot.

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Howland Reed is kinda shady. He never showed up when Robb called the banners, instead he sent his children alone, without any warriors with them. Reed and his crannogmen were supposed to defend the Neck, it does make sense,because according to the books, they are known for their guerilla tactics and the fight with spears mostly.

But back in the days, Reed fought alongside Ned during Robert's rebellion, and accompanied him to the ToJ and even helped him to finish Arthur Dayne. Why would Ned take Howland who's apparently not a great swordfighter with him?

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15 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Bran's at the heart tree where Jon and Sam took their vows. So he's within spitting distance of Castle Black. With 14 episodes left, I would imagine they're not going to over complicate things. If Bran still has to do something beyond the Wall it's not as if we haven't seen characters span continents in short periods of time to serve the needs of the plot.

The bigger unknown I would say is what is Jon going to do next and when does he need to know his background? I agree  it could well be that Bran is the one to tell him but I don't think its impossible Reed will play that part or that he may end up telling someone else.

Edited by MoreOrLess

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On 7/31/2016 at 8:14 AM, Darksky said:

Things are in your face=complaints

Things are more subtle=complaints

As always damned if they don't, damned if they do.

RLJ has been established well on the show. It's a simple case of putting 2 and 2 together. Those who can't do it, the fault lies with them. There have been mentions of R+L a few times each season, Robert has been established to have really despised Targaryens and was shown talking about killing them all if he got the chance, that combined with Lyanna talking about Robert killing her baby if he knew the truth make the child's origins abundantly clear. But the clues don't stop there, we have the first part of the Tower of Joy flashback that has Arthur flat out say they are there on Prince Rhaegar's orders. That combined with the established tale of Rhaegar 'kidnapping and raping' Lyanna make the baby revelation clear. The mere presence of Targaryen Kingsguard (the showrunners even put the Targ sigil on their armour to make it clear to the casuals) gives it away.

Anything more would be a case of spoonfeeding. Like have Rhaegar fuck Lyanna on screen then have Lyanna say out loud  'this is Jon Snow, future Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, he is Rhaegar's son, I have just given birth to him, take care of him as your own bastard'. Maybe then it'd be clear to everyone. Don't think they had the time and budget for any overt Jon is Rhaegar's clues.  

 

Yeah this is proof that most casual viewers don't pay attention that well. Which results in the more subtle hints going over their heads and the very blatant clues are complained about by the more hardcore viewers that already catch the subtle clues. It is a lose-lose situation sadly.

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On 8/1/2016 at 3:49 AM, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Howland Reed is kinda shady. He never showed up when Robb called the banners, instead he sent his children alone, without any warriors with them. Reed and his crannogmen were supposed to defend the Neck, it does make sense,because according to the books, they are known for their guerilla tactics and the fight with spears mostly.

But back in the days, Reed fought alongside Ned during Robert's rebellion, and accompanied him to the ToJ and even helped him to finish Arthur Dayne. Why would Ned take Howland who's apparently not a great swordfighter with him?

Ned would take Howland with him for a couple of reasons, I think.  And they don't have to be anything to do with martial prowess.  We can be pretty sure Howland did/does not possess much in the way of martial prowess from the Knight of the Laughing Tree incident (if one believes the KotLT was none other than Lyanna Stark, which I do).  After all, Howland got bullied and roughed up by three squires who Lyanna herself then beat up using a tourney sword.  

But, Howland seemingly has many other skills, etc. if any of what his daughter Meera says about him is true (and I think it is).  Also, and perhaps more importantly, Ned needed people he could trust and needed a small, fast moving group to go to the ToJ.  Finally, Howland and Lyanna were seemingly close friends so it's not too much of a stretch to think he may have cared a great deal for her and wanted very much to go find/rescue her. 

I speculate that whatever aid Howland gave Ned against Arthur Dayne was not martial.  I suspect he did something more along the lines of a skinchanging "attack" or something else "magical" but we won't know for sure until Martin tells us.  Also, Robb didn't seem to have any problem with Howland Reed not showing up or sending a small army of crannogmen when he called the banners...so neither do I.  I think Robb knew the crannogmen were already in the best position to help just by virtue of being in and defending their homeland in the Neck.  As you say, I think Robb was of a mind to play to the crannogmen's "strengths";)

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4 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

Ned would take Howland with him for a couple of reasons, I think.  And they don't have to be anything to do with martial prowess.  We can be pretty sure Howland did/does not possess much in the way of martial prowess from the Knight of the Laughing Tree incident (if one believes the KotLT was none other than Lyanna Stark, which I do).  After all, Howland got bullied and roughed up by three squires who Lyanna herself then beat up using a tourney sword.  

But, Howland seemingly has many other skills, etc. if any of what his daughter Meera says about him is true (and I think it is).  Also, and perhaps more importantly, Ned needed people he could trust and needed a small, fast moving group to go to the ToJ.  Finally, Howland and Lyanna were seemingly close friends so it's not too much of a stretch to think he may have cared a great deal for her and wanted very much to go find/rescue her. 

I speculate that whatever aid Howland gave Ned against Arthur Dayne was not martial.  I suspect he did something more along the lines of a skinchanging "attack" or something else "magical" but we won't know for sure until Martin tells us.  Also, Robb didn't seem to have any problem with Howland Reed not showing up or sending a small army of crannogmen when he called the banners...so neither do I.  I think Robb knew the crannogmen were already in the best position to help just by virtue of being in and defending their homeland in the Neck.  As you say, I think Robb was of a mind to play to the crannogmen's "strengths";)

I did not read the books, so I had no idea what a crannongman was. After a little research, here is what came to mind. Their style of fighting, described on Wikipedia, viewed as dishonorable by many, their part of the fighting under Robb Stark was kept secret, but played a huge part in Robb's victories, which baffled Tywin Lannister. That was just my first thought.

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Yeah, I don't get the impression the crannogmen are gonna do anyone much good, say, in the vanguard.  But if you need some special ops, guerilla-types in the swamps/forests of the North then they're your peeps.

Also, admittedly there's not much to go on but what little there is suggests to me that Howland isn't much of a fighter even for a crannogman:dunno:

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On 02/08/2016 at 8:20 PM, Prince of the North said:

I speculate that whatever aid Howland gave Ned against Arthur Dayne was not martial.  I suspect he did something more along the lines of a skinchanging "attack" or something else "magical" but we won't know for sure until Martin tells us.  Also, Robb didn't seem to have any problem with Howland Reed not showing up or sending a small army of crannogmen when he called the banners...so neither do I.  I think Robb knew the crannogmen were already in the best position to help just by virtue of being in and defending their homeland in the Neck.  As you say, I think Robb was of a mind to play to the crannogmen's "strengths";)

Absolutely.  Robb had no problem with Howland not showing up as part of the army going South, even (in the books) saying 'My father knew the worth of Howland Reed'. Robb obviously knew that the crannogmen were better where they were, and may have, as @Grizzly A Mormont suggests, used them in other tactical ways. He certainly had no lack of trust in House Reed. 

As much as I'd love to see Howland Reed in the show, I'm not sure we'll get that.  For the Jon reveal, they've gone with Bran. Yes I agree not that plausible if you want all the great houses to believe it, but if you only want Jon to know for his own peace of mind then Bran's telling would be enough.  But it's weird - he sent his kids into danger then...nothing? This sort of gaping hole is sadly what I'm coming to expect from the show though I want to be wrong. 

In the books I fully expect to meet Howland Reed and will be so disappointed if he doesn't show up. 

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I think Howland Reed was named in Bran's vision partially because he will come into play. He will confirm to Jon about his birth and can whitness to others who Jon really is. I suppose if the show bothers to have him come into play, this will be his contribution.

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In the trailer for Season 7 Jon is seen pinning someone to the wall in the Winterfell crypts. It has been said that person is Littlefinger because he told Jon of his real parentage, but could it really be HR for the same reason?

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On 7/29/2016 at 11:02 AM, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

Howland and the crannogman were tasked with defending the neck (the region between the North and the Riverlands). Which didn't really work out well since the Ironborn took Moat cailin. You had one job Howland lol.

 

Also Robb didn't have the time to wait for all his levies to mobilize and gather at Winterfell, he had to get south to assist the Riverlands and to rescue his father.

Well, the Ironborn probably came from the northern side of Moat Cailin, which is not on the Crannogmen's land.

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Posted (edited)

On 8/1/2016 at 4:49 AM, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Howland Reed is kinda shady. He never showed up when Robb called the banners, instead he sent his children alone, without any warriors with them. Reed and his crannogmen were supposed to defend the Neck, it does make sense,because according to the books, they are known for their guerilla tactics and the fight with spears mostly.

But back in the days, Reed fought alongside Ned during Robert's rebellion, and accompanied him to the ToJ and even helped him to finish Arthur Dayne. Why would Ned take Howland who's apparently not a great swordfighter with him?

Maybe the Crannogmen made contact with Galbart and Maege, they made contact with Stannis, and they're making merry hell for the Boltons and Freys at Winterfell alongside Mance and the spear wives?

Edited by Angel Eyes

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I would be very very very very very surprised if Howland Reed appeared on the show. All the knowledge he holds is available to Bran via weirwood visions, there's also Benjen and Littlefinger to serve as proxy, they both have been theorized to have some level of knowledge about R+L. I really don't see why the show would need Howland for anything at all. 

R+L=J+M is, in my opinion, solely based on the fact that kit Harington and the Meera actress resemble each other. Was this theory even around before the show? Meera is way to obscure to be anybody's secret offspring. 

I saw it mentioned in a post above that Howland might appear because he was named in Bran's vision. Gerold Hightower was named (by Pycelle when Jaime argued that KG commanders attended the small council) following the very flashback he was cut from. So I wouldn't count on that mention weighing anything. 

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