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Why Robert?


Lost Umber

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Why did Aerys demand that Jon Arryn turn Robert Baratheon over to him?

I don't recall that Robert did anything bad at the Tourney at Harrenhall or after to deserve punishment by Aerys. There's no evidence that he did anything when Rheagar stole his betrothed.

Robert's father Steffon was pretty close to the King and a loyal servant. He was even rumored to be the next hand. Would Robert have been in any real danger if Jon Arryn had given in to the demand from Aerys?

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12 minutes ago, Lost Umber said:

Why did Aerys demand that Jon Arryn turn Robert Baratheon over to him?

I don't recall that Robert did anything bad at the Tourney at Harrenhall or after to deserve punishment by Aerys. There's no evidence that he did anything when Rheagar stole his betrothed.

Robert's father Steffon was pretty close to the King and a loyal servant. He was even rumored to be the next hand. Would Robert have been in any real danger if Jon Arryn had given in to the demand from Aerys?

Actually I believe Aerys demanded "the heads of Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon" from Jon Arryn as a sign of loyalty, he didn't want them brought to him alive lol

 

Aerys was completely mad by this point, Lyanna was also betrothed to Robert at the time and Brandon had come before Aerys demanding Rhaegar's head for having kidnapped Lyanna, because Brandon was hot headed and didn't have all the information because he was on his way to wed Cat at the time. And Brandon had brought with him Jon Arryns nephew as well when demanding the Prince's head. So Aerys in his degrading mind, probably thought that Jon Arryn, Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon had something to do with the supposed plot to murder Rhaegar as well. (Since Lyanna was involved, who was Robert's betrothed at the time like I said before)

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We have no idea what Brandon and Rickard said to Aerys. Above and beyond that, we have no idea what wild, mad imaginings that Aerys came up with about the Baratheon's and Stark's, spurred on by lick-spittles and Varys.

Also, don't forget the others that Aerys had killed. Brandon had friends with him from the North, Vale, and Riverlands. Who knows what Aerys thought might be happening?

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12 minutes ago, devilish said:

I sometimes wonder who sent the messages to Jon Arryn

or who relayed the message to Ned and Robert. I could see Jon Arryn being in danger since his heir was one of the ones already murdered by Aerys. Is it possible that Robert Baratheon was manipulated into rebelling?

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50 minutes ago, Lost Umber said:

or who relayed the message to Ned and Robert. I could see Jon Arryn being in danger since his heir was one of the ones already murdered by Aerys. Is it possible that Robert Baratheon was manipulated into rebelling?

By the time the message is sent and received, the Rebellion cannot be stopped. Aerys already murdered Lord Paramount and Warden of the North for no reason at all, along with his Heir and Arryn Heir. At this point, the only thing that could have stopped the Rebellion (without the letter) is Rhaegar taking down his father by force, announcing his lawful marriage to Lyanna, and signing a Westeros version of Magna Carta, because all Lords Paramount would be exteremely upset and on verge of rebellion, since it meant hat Aerys could murder one of them with impunity

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1 hour ago, devilish said:

I sometimes wonder who sent the messages to Jon Arryn

This is the right question I think. If you buy into the whole Southron Ambitions and the Maester conspiracy to kill of the dragons then remove the Targaryens from power. If Pycelle was sending messages for Aerys, its pretty easy to connect him to the side of the rebellion if that is what Tywin wished.  

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Normally the why? question is irrelevant when connected to a maniac's action...

But if we want a sound reason, Aerys knew his cousin's son, he knew he was best friend's with then LP of the north and promised to the girl who his son escaped with... 2+2= Robert is NOT going to be his ally, and he's probably ready to hunt Rhaegar so... heads, spikes

Another factor was Robert's known charisma even by the time, and he was 3rd in line to the IT in that year

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3 hours ago, Lost Umber said:

Why did Aerys demand that Jon Arryn turn Robert Baratheon over to him?

I don't recall that Robert did anything bad at the Tourney at Harrenhall or after to deserve punishment by Aerys. There's no evidence that he did anything when Rheagar stole his betrothed.

Robert's father Steffon was pretty close to the King and a loyal servant. He was even rumored to be the next hand. Would Robert have been in any real danger if Jon Arryn had given in to the demand from Aerys?

more importantly... when did he?  was that before he executed Brandon and Rickard and Jon's nephew and heir or after?

If it was before Jon chose his wards over his heir... and pretty much doomed Rickard and Brandon.

If it was after Aerys had no leverage... regardless of his madness Aerys did understand the need for leverage Elia on Dorne and Jamie on Tywin... 

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42 minutes ago, stateofdissipation said:

more importantly... when did he?  was that before he executed Brandon and Rickard and Jon's nephew and heir or after?

If it was before Jon chose his wards over his heir... and pretty much doomed Rickard and Brandon.

If it was after Aerys had no leverage... regardless of his madness Aerys did understand the need for leverage Elia on Dorne and Jamie on Tywin... 

According to TWOIAF, Aerys murdered them first.

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3 hours ago, devilish said:

I sometimes wonder who sent the messages to Jon Arryn

I imagine a raven from KL. Arryn's Maester would have delivered the message.

 

3 hours ago, Lost Umber said:

or who relayed the message to Ned and Robert. I could see Jon Arryn being in danger since his heir was one of the ones already murdered by Aerys. Is it possible that Robert Baratheon was manipulated into rebelling?

Woah! Aery's had Jon Arryn's heir murdered? I don't remember that. (Edit: Ahhh...he was with Brandon Stark and Lord Rickard when they came to KL for Rhaegar..)

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26 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

According to TWOIAF, Aerys murdered them first.

Brandon and Rickard only or Elbert as well?

Murder is a term for unlawful killing...

The king in an absolute monarchy (as opposed to constitutional) is unable to do anything unlawful--- he is the law.  It was execution-- killing as a legal penalty.

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37 minutes ago, stateofdissipation said:

Brandon and Rickard only or Elbert as well?

Murder is a term for unlawful killing...

The king in an absolute monarchy (as opposed to constitutional) is unable to do anything unlawful--- he is the law.  It was execution-- killing as a legal penalty.

Westeros is no absolute monarchy. At all. 

 

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1 hour ago, stateofdissipation said:

Brandon and Rickard only or Elbert as well?

Murder is a term for unlawful killing...

The king in an absolute monarchy (as opposed to constitutional) is unable to do anything unlawful--- he is the law.  It was execution-- killing as a legal penalty.

It seems as though Elbert (and all of Brandon's companions save Glover) were killed before the demands were sent.

Quote

The full depth of King Aerys's madness was subsequently revealed in his depraved actions against Lord Stark, his heir, and their supporters after they demanded redress for Rhaegar's wrongs. Instead of granting them fair hearing, King Aerys had them brutally slain, then followed these murders by demanding that Lord Jon Arryn execute his former wards, Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark.

Anyway, Westeros is no absolute monarchy. The Targaryens might have been close to absolute monarchs when they had dragons, but by Aerys' time they were definitely feudal monarchs. Maybe they pretended to be absolute monarchs (given the history of Aegon V, that seems pretty unlikely) but they weren't in reality.

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11 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

It seems as though Elbert (and all of Brandon's companions save Glover) were killed before the demands were sent.

Anyway, Westeros is no absolute monarchy. The Targaryens might have been close to absolute monarchs when they had dragons, but by Aerys' time they were definitely feudal monarchs. Maybe they pretended to be absolute monarchs (given the history of Aegon V, that seems pretty unlikely) but they weren't in reality.

a feudal monarchy:

A political and economic system of Europe from the 9th to about the 15th century, based on the holding of all land in fief or fee and the resulting relation of lord to vassal and characterized by homage, legal and military service of tenants, and forfeiture.

It does not address the powers of the monarch

In an absolute monarchy, the monarch rules as an autocrat, with absolute power over the state and government — for example, the right to rule by decree, promulgate laws, and impose punishments. 

in an autocracy, supreme power is concentrated in the hands of one person, whose decisions are subject to neither external legal restraints nor regularized mechanisms of popular control (except for the implicit threat of a coup or rebellion.)

With dragons the threat of coup or rebellion was neutered.

 

So with Elbert dead... Aerys made demands after killing his hostage.  

 

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17 hours ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

 

Another factor was Robert's known charisma even by the time, and he was 3rd in line to the IT in that year

Nope. Robert was far from third in line. You have Rhaegar, Aegon, Vyseris, any potential mate of Rhaenys and then you have uncles that might not have been dead yet

1 hour ago, stateofdissipation said:

a feudal monarchy:

A political and economic system of Europe from the 9th to about the 15th century, based on the holding of all land in fief or fee and the resulting relation of lord to vassal and characterized by homage, legal and military service of tenants, and forfeiture.

It does not address the powers of the monarch

In an absolute monarchy, the monarch rules as an autocrat, with absolute power over the state and government — for example, the right to rule by decree, promulgate laws, and impose punishments. 

in an autocracy, supreme power is concentrated in the hands of one person, whose decisions are subject to neither external legal restraints nor regularized mechanisms of popular control (except for the implicit threat of a coup or rebellion.)

With dragons the threat of coup or rebellion was neutered.

 

So with Elbert dead... Aerys made demands after killing his hostage.  

 

Even in an absolute monarchy, the nobles had a lot of power, but not as much

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4 hours ago, Anton Martell said:

Nope. Robert was far from third in line. You have Rhaegar, Aegon, Vyseris, any potential mate of Rhaenys and then you have uncles that might not have been dead yet

Even in an absolute monarchy, the nobles had a lot of power, but not as much

Aegon wasn't born at the time i said Robert's charisma was already known (ergo, pre harrenhall)... Rhaenys's future husband was far from being chosen she was no more than a babe at best, and Robert was Aegon V's great-grandson with extreme charisma... Those uncles didn't exist, only Aemon...

Rhaegar-Viserys-Robert on the eyes of the lords, faith and smallfolk alike at that time

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