Meera of Tarth Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 28 minutes ago, dsug said: um...what...? no one cares about doran's "wisdom" as you call it. clearly the majority of dorne saw it as cowardice, so right away that "argument" if you can even call it that is invalid. Who is the majority of Dorne? The Sandsnakes? Oh wait, two lines in Ellaria's "Weak men won't rule Dorne" reflect that all the minor houses of Dorne are conspiring with her in the darkness Quote and based on the fact that the guards didn't react when she stabbed doran, or the fact that they put her in charge and gave her control of the army shows that the lesser houses and common people DID support ellaria. you are really grasping at straws here to justify your hatred of a storyline on a television program. LOL, If I was one of those guards, I wouldn't react. SandSnakes and Ellaria are capable of kinslaying....what would they do to a guard? LOL The messenger was not in the "conspiracy", I wonder why. Should I suppose Ellaria and all the minor houses of Dorne were waiting for him to come in that exact moment so as to stab Doran while he was reading the letter. If they were not capable of controlling a simple messenger, yes, I suppose guessing all the minor houses of Dorne support Ellaria is the most "sensible" thing. It's not grasping at straws. Dorne was clearly bad-executed and contrived. AS even admitted that they hired him for 4 episodes in s6 and then he appeared only in one. They probably didn't know what to do. The consequences of that are the bad storyline, and also how badly written was this scene, and not until today I've realised I should have thought that all the minor houses of Dorne were supporting Ellaria. It had never come to my mind. I don't think I'm in a minority. PS: Control of the army? I really missed that part... Quote The logical thing is to believe Ellaria is delusional and wants to be queen? I just...what...? Ellaria Sand made her intentions abundantly clear from the get go, to go to war with the Lannisters. That does not include her convincing herself she has imaginary support from imaginary people, and then trying to depose Tommen and naming herself queen. She wants revenge for Oberyn, Elia, and every other Dornish life lost in the Lannisters quest for power. She hasn't been "characterized" as being after the Throne since season five, that is simple a falsehood to support your own imaginary argument. She has been characterized as being the embodiment of Dornish frustration towards the Lannisters for walking all over them, and towards Doran for allowing it to happen. Oh yes, I agre she wants to go to war. But it can't be denied she wants power. And the reason she wants power is that she wants to rule Dorne the way she wants. Does she want to revenge Oberyn and, probably other Dornish lives? I agree with that. But it's totally clear she is an usurper and acted on her own. If she had support from some people, it has never been stated; but I am totally convinced it would be a minority of people. Anyway, we don't even know them, because they didn't want to explore Dorne further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsug Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 16 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said: Who is the majority of Dorne? The Sandsnakes? Oh wait, two lines in Ellaria's "Weak men won't rule Dorne" reflect that all the minor houses of Dorne are conspiring with her in the darkness yup, because its not like her repeated remarks about the people siding with her and being disgusted by doran don't exist. 16 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said: LOL, If I was one of those guards, I wouldn't react. SandSnakes and Ellaria are capable of kinslaying....what would they do to a guard? LOL yeah, i'm sure the multiple men armed with spears were really afraid of two women with daggers. No, the guards didn't do anything because they were on their side. 16 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said: The messenger was not in the "conspiracy", I wonder why. Should I suppose Ellaria and all the minor houses of Dorne were waiting for him to come in that exact moment so as to stab Doran while he was reading the letter. If they were not capable of controlling a simple messenger, yes, I suppose guessing all the minor houses of Dorne support Ellaria is the most "sensible" thing. i dont even know what to respond to this. the maester wasn't in on it because he's loyal to doran, the guy she is conspiring against. Doran clearly had very few allies, so it wasn't hard for her to wipe them out in one fell swoop. 16 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said: It's not grasping at straws. Dorne was clearly bad-executed and contrived. AS even admitted that they hired him for 4 episodes in s6 and then he appeared only in one. They probably didn't know what to do. The consequences of that are the bad storyline, and also how badly written was this scene, and not until today I've realised I should have thought that all the minor houses of Dorne were supporting Ellaria. It had never come to my mind. I don't think I'm in a minority. it's not a great storyline, no, but you are acting like it does not make sense. simply put, it does. if doran was weak and had no allies, and ellaria was strong and had lots of allies, its perfectly reasonable to believe that she could overthrow him. 16 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said: PS: Control of the army? I really missed that part... see all those dornish ships in daenerys's fleet in 610? Guess not... 16 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said: Oh yes, I agre she wants to go to war. But it can't be denied she wants power. And the reason she wants power is that she wants to rule Dorne the way she wants. Does she want to revenge Oberyn and, probably other Dornish lives? I agree with that. But it's totally clear she is an usurper and acted on her own. If she had support from some people, it has never been stated; but I am totally convinced it would be a minority of people. Anyway, we don't even know them, because they didn't want to explore Dorne further. Again, it has been stated multiple times that she does have support from a great deal of people. I don't know why are you ignoring the dialogue I have presented you with (oh right, you think ellaria is lying and imagining everything LOL). And Ellaria wanted control of Dorne, which she got, and she does not want to be on the Iron Throne. Remember that thing she did where she supported Daenerys Targaryen's claim to the throne? Or was she imagining that too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon in the North Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 3 hours ago, CaptainTheo said: Gregor who committed all the killings was severely wounded by Oberyn and due to the poison would be presumed dead. This is incorrect. Unlike in the books, where Gregor was pronounced dead and the reanimated version of Gregor was renamed Robert Strong, Show Gregor kept his name after being reanimated, where he was reported to have gone through one of Qyburn's experimental procedures that saved his life, but "changed" him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meera of Tarth Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 14 minutes ago, dsug said: yup, because its not like her repeated remarks about the people siding with her and being disgusted by doran don't exist. yeah, i'm sure the multiple men armed with spears were really afraid of two women with daggers. No, the guards didn't do anything because they were on their side. i dont even know what to respond to this. the maester wasn't in on it because he's loyal to doran, the guy she is conspiring against. Doran clearly had very few allies, so it wasn't hard for her to wipe them out in one fell swoop. it's not a great storyline, no, but you are acting like it does not make sense. simply put, it does. if doran was weak and had no allies, and ellaria was strong and had lots of allies, its perfectly reasonable to believe that she could overthrow him. see all those dornish ships in daenerys's fleet in 610? Guess not... Again, it has been stated multiple times that she does have support from a great deal of people. I don't know why are you ignoring the dialogue I have presented you with (oh right, you think ellaria is lying and imagining everything LOL). And Ellaria wanted control of Dorne, which she got, and she does not want to be on the Iron Throne. Remember that thing she did where she supported Daenerys Targaryen's claim to the throne? Or was she imagining that too? Of course it doesn't makes sense. Saying those lines in the final scene after all her other scenes that suggest she wants to usrup the throne on her own terms is not satisfactory. I believe what I have seen during both seasons, and this is Ellaria acting insanely, and only conspiring with the Sand Snakes. You say the guards and the houses allied with her. I'd like to know how and when. We saw his guards were loyal to him a few episodes back, when they arrested the Snakes, Jaime and Bronn. How can I have to believe, out of a sudden, that Ellaria has conspired with other noble houses from Dorne? Just because she says that in the final scene of Doran's tale? The real truth is that it might be what they want, but it was poorly executed, and stories have to flow, not " be vomited" when they want in a couple of lines without proper build up. And then we have the ships. Ok, Dorne has ships, and now Ellaria is the Queen and they are all loyal to her because of fear, like Cersei. It doesn't make much sense to me, but it makes more sense than the offscreen cosnpiracy, After all, they know what she is capable of: kinslaying. The ironborn have ships too and Euron is gonna build dozens of them in a few eisodes..... And from the leaks Spoiler creating armies and ships out of nowhere it is not a problem so I don't think addressing the number of ships is something that could be debated because of the reason above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon in the North Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 36 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said: Oh yes, I agre she wants to go to war. But it can't be denied she wants power. And the reason she wants power is that she wants to rule Dorne the way she wants. Does she want to revenge Oberyn and, probably other Dornish lives? I agree with that. But it's totally clear she is an usurper and acted on her own. If she had support from some people, it has never been stated; but I am totally convinced it would be a minority of people. Anyway, we don't even know them, because they didn't want to explore Dorne further. I didn't get that impression. It was my understanding that if Doran had gone to war to avenge his family, Ellaria would have been fine with his rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meera of Tarth Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 2 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said: I didn't get that impression. It was my understanding that if Doran had gone to war to avenge his family, Ellaria would have been fine with his rule. And that is my understanding too. But she wanted revenge at any cost after the rightful Prince said "No". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Dorne is the most poorly portrayed of all Westeros regions/Kingdoms (Dorne is actually a Principality) The Red Viper was ok, although he was portrayed as a Hedonistic "Pepe Le Pew" type of guy but not bad considering the show, Season 5 was stupid and they lowered it in Season 6. Arianne should have been introduced rather than expand Ellaria and introducing the 3 sandsnakes/fakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainTheo Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 On 27/01/2017 at 0:30 PM, Dragon in the North said: This is incorrect. Unlike in the books, where Gregor was pronounced dead and the reanimated version of Gregor was renamed Robert Strong, Show Gregor kept his name after being reanimated, where he was reported to have gone through one of Qyburn's experimental procedures that saved his life, but "changed" him. That's why I said presumed dead - I meant, presumed dead by Dorne. Gregor came back to life as a mindless zombie in the TV version, but the Dornish are not aware of that, as far as I know. The last Ellaria saw of him he was severely wounded by a guy fighting with a poisoned spear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainTheo Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 7 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said: Dorne is the most poorly portrayed of all Westeros regions/Kingdoms (Dorne is actually a Principality) The Red Viper was ok, although he was portrayed as a Hedonistic "Pepe Le Pew" type of guy but not bad considering the show, Season 5 was stupid and they lowered it in Season 6. Arianne should have been introduced rather than expand Ellaria and introducing the 3 sandsnakes/fakes. Agreed. I was a fan of Oberyn. Note that Oberyn as well as saying that Dorne doesn't hurt little girls also said, when explaining to Tywin that he didn't poison Joffrey, said that he doesn't hold children accountable for the action of their parents and grandparents. He comes across as honourable. Yet not only are the Sand Snakes and (in season 5 and beyond) Ellaria basically entirely the same in terms of personality and always agree about absolutely everything, but they also stand for (along with the rest of Dorne?) the exact opposite of what Oberyn did. They kill little girls (and boys), they blame children (both Myrcella and Trystane) on the actions of their ancestors (Doran, Tywin and maybe Cersei as well) and they have no problem whatsoever with kinslaying. Oh, and torturing/murdering people who actively help them out for that matter (the Merchant Captain who tipped them off to Jaime/Bronn's arrival). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pink Fat Rast Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 On 31.7.2016 at 1:31 AM, StoneColdJorahMormont said: I'm gonna accept this as the most reasonable way of explaining it but I can't get past the fact Shireen was screaming for minutes while she was talking to Stannis and seem unphased by it, As it was happening and she was saying to Stannis "it has to be done", she clearly lacked conviction and was visibly in conflict and full of uncertainty. Plus, Shireen switched from calling for her father to calling for her mother, so there was that too. It was a process, as the reality, empathy and "I can still prevent it" was gradually sinking in - and, yes, also trying to convince herself more than Stannis, how had already been convinced and was standing there stoically. One might as well make a thread titled "why didn't Vader immediately save Luke and was standing there for 2 minutes", and then I would reply "he was bobbing his head back and forth rewatch the scene again": Selyse was clearly "phased" by it. /thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 I guess they had to do something dramatic for King's blood. Why can't they just take a pin and cut Shireen's hand or prick her finger, ala Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl. "There's no reason to fret. Just a prick of the finger and a few drops of blood." That way, the men's morale won't go down the drain and go "if this guy sacrifices his daughter, screw this, I'm out of here!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pink Fat Rast Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Beeeeecause Pirates was a comedy, and the made a whole gag out of Barbossa trolling Elizabeth all the time - also, since they only need a few drops, they can let her live and have fun with her right after regaining their mortality; great, right? Then of course, after this "twist", PotC took what initially seemed like a serious, dark and dramatic ritual involving sacrifice, and started turning it into a joke - by the end, people were stealing the medallions and then putting them back in with a few drops of their blood at minute intervals. Can you see something like this happen on GoT? Not that it doesn't have its fair share of irreverent moments, but probably in a dramatic episode about Stannis trying to destroy the Boltons and his army getting into a horrible blizzard and freezing to death? "Blood sacrifice" tends to refer to killing people, or at the very least serious maiming - Pirates made a joke about it by taking it literally; when Thrones talks about "blood magic", however, it usually means the real thing. What a bizarre argument to make - what's next, Bronn's gonna tease the NK with a jar of dirt, or what? I mean why shouldn't they do that, when Jack Sparrow did it in the Pirates movies right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 The point is the question: Did they really need to do that? Nice job, Stannis. There goes morale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pink Fat Rast Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 8 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: The point is the question: Did they really need to do that? Nice job, Stannis. There goes morale. Uh.... I don't know. Depends on how right/honest Melisandre was? Maybe they did need to do it for the desired effect. As for the "morale", I don't know - Stannis could've tried to give a speech about how this was necessary to enable the army to defeat the Boltons, and thus prevent them from committing SENSELESS cruelties of that scale just for sport or personal gain. But I guess everyone was dazed and disoriented afterwards and they just screwed everything up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byfort of Corfe Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 15 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: The point is the question: Did they really need to do that? Nice job, Stannis. There goes morale. I think that the horrific murder of Shireen actually plays an important part in Stannis' story. It shows that the man of honor has been seduced by the dark power of Melisandre into doing a horrific thing for a Throne he is seeking supposedly not because it is his right but because it is his duty. And he realizes the horror of it finally when he has lost the battle and Brienne finds him. He realizes that he has been walked down a horrific path, from Renly's murder on. And at the end he is like Alec Guinness's character in "Bridge on the River Kwai", "oh my God, what have I done?" No throne is worth what he has done and no decent god would ask it of him. And it is also foreshadowing. With Tyrion taking a bite from the "Lord of Lights" apple through his alliance with Kinvara, will Dany be able to resist the temptation? Jon and Davos did, but will she? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 12 hours ago, Pink Fat Rast said: Beeeeecause Pirates was a comedy, and the made a whole gag out of Barbossa trolling Elizabeth all the time - also, since they only need a few drops, they can let her live and have fun with her right after regaining their mortality; great, right? Then of course, after this "twist", PotC took what initially seemed like a serious, dark and dramatic ritual involving sacrifice, and started turning it into a joke - by the end, people were stealing the medallions and then putting them back in with a few drops of their blood at minute intervals. Can you see something like this happen on GoT? Not that it doesn't have its fair share of irreverent moments, but probably in a dramatic episode about Stannis trying to destroy the Boltons and his army getting into a horrible blizzard and freezing to death? "Blood sacrifice" tends to refer to killing people, or at the very least serious maiming - Pirates made a joke about it by taking it literally; when Thrones talks about "blood magic", however, it usually means the real thing. What a bizarre argument to make - what's next, Bronn's gonna tease the NK with a jar of dirt, or what? I mean why shouldn't they do that, when Jack Sparrow did it in the Pirates movies right? Bizzare argument? I was only talking about the blood sacrifice, since that was an example that I knew of blood rituals in film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pink Fat Rast Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 Yeah but why are you expecting "blood rituals" to work the same in different movies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pink Fat Rast Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 10 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said: No throne is worth what he has done and no decent god would ask it of him. Easy to say when you lost said throne... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 3 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said: Yeah but why are you expecting "blood rituals" to work the same in different movies Needs explanation; i.e. Is it necessary to burn someone with King's blood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pink Fat Rast Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 Well that's again connected with Melisandre and how honest/competent she was or still is - it ought to come up again, unless of course the writers forget.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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