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Shireens murder.


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29 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Do you think Stannis cared for her words? He has already made up his mind thanks to Melisandre. She could do nothing to stop him even if she had a change of mind because her husband is an unyielding bastard. That scene was meant to show her convincing herself and having a last minute change of mind and her helplessness after that. The execution might have been poor but that was in character for Selyse.

Pretty much, she was nominally supporting Stanni's choice at first but I think its pretty clear she was actually trying to convince herself.

Surely the point is not that Stannis was "heartless", we've seen loads of heartless characters and there brutally killing innocents isn't nearly so unpleasant as seeing Stannis kill someone that he did obviously care about chasing his destiny.

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45 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Do you think Stannis cared for her words? He has already made up his mind thanks to Melisandre. She could do nothing to stop him even if she had a change of mind because her husband is an unyielding bastard. That scene was meant to show her convincing herself and having a last minute change of mind and her helplessness after that. The execution might have been poor but that was in character for Selyse.

You just said the scene convincing Stannis was meant to be convincing herself too, so i am just going with your scenario... which was convincing herself and Stannis, in which case if she was having any doubts, she should have convinced herself first before convincing Stannis simultaneously  incase she failed to convince herself and made a man a man already convinced even more so

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5 minutes ago, MoreOrLess said:

Pretty much, she was nominally supporting Stanni's choice at first but I think its pretty clear she was actually trying to convince herself.

Surely the point is not that Stannis was "heartless", we've seen loads of heartless characters and there brutally killing innocents isn't nearly so unpleasant as seeing Stannis kill someone that he did obviously care about chasing his destiny.

Stannis is a tragic character. But his arc is not done better in the show that what you said cannot be felt only from watching the show. Only if they spent on him half the time they spent on Cersei.

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4 minutes ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

You just said the scene convincing Stannis was meant to be convincing herself too, so i am just going with your scenario... which was convincing herself and Stannis, in which case if she was having any doubts, she should have convinced herself first before convincing Stannis simultaneously  incase she failed to convince herself and made a man a man already convinced even more so

Isn't that the point? That she failed to convince herself in the end? She feeling helpless after having a change of heart because her husband is still convinced. That makes it more tragic. 

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6 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

Isn't that the point? That she failed to convince herself in the end? She feeling helpless after having a change of heart because her husband is still convinced. That makes it more tragic. 

Yeah but i can't speak for the Book Stannis as I haven't read them, but show Stannis to me looked like a man who was conflicted at that point in his facial expressions and i may be wrong, but i feel had she went to him at first with doubt rather than reassurance i feel he may been swayed but as it stood she didn't and by the time she showed dislike for it, the deed was all but done.

Anyways it's all interesting just thought it might be good to dissect the scene :) 

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I think that D&D had a weak moment and decided they didn't want Selyse to be so inhuman. They thought they had better not show a fanatic mom with an unredemable willingness to kill their little girl. 

Probably they wanted to give some reason for Stannis men to desert in a moment that probably not like if was going to be in the books. They had to wrap up the Stannis line quickly, without him being as sympathetic.

i suspect that Shireen will be burned, but maybe with just Mel and Selyse to save Jon, and they didn't want to make jons  life that ambiguous.  

Its sloppy and relies on the actors pulling off a fudging scene.

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  • 5 months later...

I would first convince Davos to hid  close by until I give the signal to take her to Oldtown (I would tell Davos that Mel might have bad intentions for the princess) , and ask him to hide somewhere close to the pyre. I would  always bring a big bucket of water(you never know when you might need it) and splash on Mel;s torch before she light the Pyre,  Then I cut the ropes to untie Shireen , signal Davos to take Shireen to Old town.  I would  then run real fast,  get up on my horse and go to Dorne for a change in weather.

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I put it down to terrible writing. Early in the season Stannis made it clear he'd do anything to save his only daughter and heir. Even two episodes prior he implied that Mel was crazy for suggesting burning her. Now suddenly he's done a complete 180 and is willing to be a kinslayer and destroy the future of his house and his #1 fan for... what exactly? To make half his army desert so that he loses the battle of Winterfell?

D&D just seem to like shocking people regardless of logic. Like them having Faullaria and her beloved daughters/step-daughters murder Myrcella, Doran, Hotah and Trystane with the guards having turned into statues so she can be "rewarded" by becoming the ruler of Dorne.

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22 hours ago, CaptainTheo said:

I put it down to terrible writing. Early in the season Stannis made it clear he'd do anything to save his only daughter and heir. Even two episodes prior he implied that Mel was crazy for suggesting burning her. Now suddenly he's done a complete 180 and is willing to be a kinslayer and destroy the future of his house and his #1 fan for... what exactly? To make half his army desert so that he loses the battle of Winterfell?

D&D just seem to like shocking people regardless of logic. Like them having Faullaria and her beloved daughters/step-daughters murder Myrcella, Doran, Hotah and Trystane with the guards having turned into statues so she can be "rewarded" by becoming the ruler of Dorne.

that obviously wasn't part of the plan. Melisandre told him that sacrificing Shireen would earn the Lord of Light's favor, and he would reward them by clearing the way to Winterfell and bringing them victory. Mel had shown her power/ability to read visions before, so Stannis had reason to believe her. Mix that with Stannis's own failing mental state, and there's some twisted form of "logic" to the decision. 

As Ellaria explained pretty thoroughly, the people of Dorne had turned against Doran and were on Ellaria's side, so the guards did not intervene. They wanted the same thing she did. They did not "reward" her with anything, she filled the power vacuum left by Doran and Trystane's deaths and had the support of the common people and the other noble houses, and therefore control of the armies. 

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41 minutes ago, dsug said:

that obviously wasn't part of the plan. Melisandre told him that sacrificing Shireen would earn the Lord of Light's favor, and he would reward them by clearing the way to Winterfell and bringing them victory. Mel had shown her power/ability to read visions before, so Stannis had reason to believe her. Mix that with Stannis's own failing mental state, and there's some twisted form of "logic" to the decision. 

Even if Stannis believed in her words, that they would become true, the way the writers handled the situation was too contrived and unsatisfactory in terms of cohesion of the story.

Stannis failing mental state? Which one? I didn't see any of that. The more similar thing I saw was him having two different personalities inhabiting his mind. The latter being shown in the burning scene, not before.

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As Ellaria explained pretty thoroughly,

 

Which scene are you referring to? I didn't remember that explanation.

Quote

the people of Dorne had turned against Doran and were on Ellaria's side, so the guards did not intervene. They wanted the same thing she did. They did not "reward" her with anything, she filled the power vacuum left by Doran and Trystane's deaths and had the support of the common people and the other noble houses, and therefore control of the armies. 

So the other "ghostly" noble houses of Dorne reunited with Ellaria offscreen and decided they would join her by not doing nothing (trusting she would kill Doran with no reprisals against them in case she failed). And all the guards were convinced by her of high treason, and Hotah didn't notice any of this?

wow...

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23 hours ago, CaptainTheo said:

I put it down to terrible writing. Early in the season Stannis made it clear he'd do anything to save his only daughter and heir. Even two episodes prior he implied that Mel was crazy for suggesting burning her. Now suddenly he's done a complete 180 and is willing to be a kinslayer and destroy the future of his house and his #1 fan for... what exactly? To make half his army desert so that he loses the battle of Winterfell?

D&D just seem to like shocking people regardless of logic. Like them having Faullaria and her beloved daughters/step-daughters murder Myrcella, Doran, Hotah and Trystane with the guards having turned into statues so she can be "rewarded" by becoming the ruler of Dorne.

I've said this before on this board but Stannis by this point literally believed he was the destined savior of Westeros, even more so after he learned of the Wight Walkers. So now his triumph over the Seven Kingdoms was tied to the fate of the known world. He also had every reason to believe in the power of king's blood magic.

Once he was faced with a logistical situation where he felt he couldn't succeed, and thus the rest of the world was in peril, him making what he believed to be the ultimate sacrafice to fulfill his destiny was alot more compelling than it was before. Before when Mel suggested it, it felt more like insurance for their cause, now it felt necessary. 

Also you are conflating that action with the effect of the action. Stannis didn't believe he would lose most of his army and lose the battle of Winterfell when he did that. He believed he was ensuring his victory and evening the odds through magic. He thought he would have got the same convenience he got out of Gendry's blood having Robb and Joffrey die. Except now it was on a greater scale because of the greater sacrifice. The fact that it ended up not working and having the opposite effect is separate from the intention itself. 

The bigger issue is that the writers clearly didn't want to invest too much time to get to that point. They didn't feel it prudent to show a scene of Balon dying to further cement the Gendry blood magic. They didn't want to invest too much time in building to the desperation point in his travel to Winterfell.

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The more I think about it the real problem with the whole plot is Stannis is stuck in the same situation in the book but Shireen is no where near him plus "I'll have no burnings pray harder". So to have him in the show do something this drastic while in the books he is no where near as desperate despite the same circumstances sticks out like a sore thumb

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3 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Which scene are you referring to? I didn't remember that explanation.

So the other "ghostly" noble houses of Dorne reunited with Ellaria offscreen and decided they would join her by not doing nothing (trusting she would kill Doran with no reprisals against them in case she failed). And all the guards were convinced by her of high treason, and Hotah didn't notice any of this?

wow...

Doran: You would have me go to war?

Ellaria: The whole country would have you go to war!

Doran: Then we are lucky the whole country does not decide.

Ellaria: The Sand Snakes are with me. They have the love of their people. They will avenge their father while you sit here in your chair doing nothing. 

-Game of Thrones, The House of Black and White  

Ellaria: When was the last time you left this palace? You don't know your own people, their disgust for you. Elia Martell raped and murdered, and you did nothing. Oberyn Martell butchered, and you did nothing. You are not a Dornishman. You are not our prince. 

Doran: My son...Trystane...

Ellaria: Your son is weak, just like you, and weak men will never rule Dorne again. 

-Game of Thrones, The Red Woman

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30 minutes ago, dsug said:

Doran: You would have me go to war?

Ellaria: The whole country would have you go to war!

Doran: Then we are lucky the whole country does not decide.

Ellaria: The Sand Snakes are with me. They have the love of their people. They will avenge their father while you sit here in your chair doing nothing. 

-Game of Thrones, The House of Black and White  

Ellaria: When was the last time you left this palace? You don't know your own people, their disgust for you. Elia Martell raped and murdered, and you did nothing. Oberyn Martell butchered, and you did nothing. You are not a Dornishman. You are not our prince. 

Doran: My son...Trystane...

Ellaria: Your son is weak, just like you, and weak men will never rule Dorne again. 

-Game of Thrones, The Red Woman

These are all Ellaria's personal opnions, a person who wants to go to war. We never see the people or other noble houses. They just usurped the principality by kinslaying. If that is the writer's way to convince us everyone in Dorne is going secretly Ellaria's way, it is not very convincing. 

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This is exactly what I expected to happen reading the books from the first scene with Shireen. The idea that this is something D&D have mistakenly invented is pure fantasy.

Selysse is the fanatic who introduces the Red woman to Stanis. She is absolutely and totally devoted to the red god. And like many fanatics she is utterly blind to the consequences of her actions right up to the point where she suddenly realizes what she has done.

Murdering your only child for the sake of taking the throne is exactly the sort of thing a fanatic does. The fact that their dynasty will be extinct is something that only occurs to them after.

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1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

These are all Ellaria's personal opnions, a person who wants to go to war. We never see the people or other noble houses. They just usurped the principality by kinslaying. If that is the writer's way to convince us everyone in Dorne is going secretly Ellaria's way, it is not very convincing. 

um, "the whole country would have you go to war," "the people don't like you, they support me." what else do you want? minor lords are basically nonexistent on the show, especially for a very minor subplot like dorne. what you are asking for is simply unreasonable. if you want this whole intrigue plot with ellaria and other lords conspiring against doran, all on-screen, it's simply not gonna happen. its implied that something like that did in fact go on, through ellaria's words, but to think they're gonna waste screentime on that is silly. 

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On 25/1/2017 at 4:06 AM, dsug said:

um, "the whole country would have you go to war," "the people don't like you, they support me." what else do you want? minor lords are basically nonexistent on the show, especially for a very minor subplot like dorne. what you are asking for is simply unreasonable. if you want this whole intrigue plot with ellaria and other lords conspiring against doran, all on-screen, it's simply not gonna happen. its implied that something like that did in fact go on, through ellaria's words, but to think they're gonna waste screentime on that is silly. 

Doran also told Ellaria than he doesn't want his people to go to a war. He told her a long time ago, when she asked him to avenge Oberyn.

He was wise, and knew he didn't want that for his people.

Anyway, how do we know Ellaria's words are supported by the minor houses that don't appear? We have just to believe in her words? She could be lying. In fact, she has lied before, when she cried and kissed Doran's hand in order to get pardoned for treason. We know she wants revenge since the first time we saw her in Dorne. The most logical thing is to assume she is just lying again, and that she actually believes her words, because she is unstable and wants to be Queen, and that she wants to believe everyone hates Doran, but would love her.

Furthermore, out of a sudden, why would everyone just support Ellaria in that rebellion? As I stated, even if we have to believe thew wrote those lines in order to make the audience feel Dorne supports her, (something I am not really sure about, I buy the fact she is unstable and that works alone in order to usurp the throne, she is been characterised this way since s5) it would not make sense from a political perspective. It's just high treason and the risk is so high in order not to be exposed if Ellaria+The Sandsnakes fail in their mission to kill him and Trystane.

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7 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Doran also told Ellaria than he doesn't want his people to go to a war. He told her a long time ago, when she asked him to avenge Oberyn.

He was wise, and knew he didn't want that for his people.

Anyway, how do we know Ellaria's words are supported by the minor houses that don't appear? We have just to believe in her words? She could be lying. In fact, she has lied before, when she cried and kissed Doran's hand in order to get pardoned for treason. We know she wants revenge since the first time we saw her in Dorne. The most logical thing is to assume she is just lying again, and that she actually believes her words, because she is unstable and wants to be Queen, and that she wants to believe everyone hates Doran, but would love her.

Furthermore, out of a sudden, why would everyone just support Ellaria in that rebellion? As I stated, even if we have to believe thew wrote those lines in order to make the audience feel Dorne supports her, (something I am not really sure about, I buy the fact she is unstable and that works alone in order to usurp the throne, she is been characterised this way since s5) it would not make sense from a political perspective. It's just high treason and the risk is so high in order not to be exposed if Ellaria+The Sandsnakes fail in their mission to kill him and Trystane.

Completely agree. All of Dorne supporting Ellaria is just so weird. They'd side with a bastard guilty of kinslaying and breaching guest right (involving the murder of a little girl) over the legitimate ruler?

Another point that the whole of Dorne seems to have missed is that Oberyn and Elia and her children have already been avenged, with both guilty parties accounted for. Gregor who committed all the killings was severely wounded by Oberyn and due to the poison would be presumed dead. Tywin who gave the orders was murdered by his own son.

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1 hour ago, CaptainTheo said:

Completely agree. All of Dorne supporting Ellaria is just so weird. They'd side with a bastard guilty of kinslaying and breaching guest right (involving the murder of a little girl) over the legitimate ruler?

Another point that the whole of Dorne seems to have missed is that Oberyn and Elia and her children have already been avenged, with both guilty parties accounted for. Gregor who committed all the killings was severely wounded by Oberyn and due to the poison would be presumed dead. Tywin who gave the orders was murdered by his own son.

Exactly, Oberyn decided he would be Tyrion's champion. Starting a war for that is not the most intelligent decision. And, as you point out, even Tyrin is dead. Ellaria is moved by her thirst of revenge, because she can't stand they killed Oberyn; but that's it. There is nothing that suggests that the minor houses of Dorne support this crazy idea. In fact, it's the fact Ellaria wants to usurp the throne to rule her own way that is heavily suggested with the actions we see and how she is determined to achieve since the scene Doran tells her he won't go to a war.

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9 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Doran also told Ellaria than he doesn't want his people to go to a war. He told her a long time ago, when she asked him to avenge Oberyn.

He was wise, and knew he didn't want that for his people.

Anyway, how do we know Ellaria's words are supported by the minor houses that don't appear? We have just to believe in her words? She could be lying. In fact, she has lied before, when she cried and kissed Doran's hand in order to get pardoned for treason. We know she wants revenge since the first time we saw her in Dorne. The most logical thing is to assume she is just lying again, and that she actually believes her words, because she is unstable and wants to be Queen, and that she wants to believe everyone hates Doran, but would love her.

Furthermore, out of a sudden, why would everyone just support Ellaria in that rebellion? As I stated, even if we have to believe thew wrote those lines in order to make the audience feel Dorne supports her, (something I am not really sure about, I buy the fact she is unstable and that works alone in order to usurp the throne, she is been characterised this way since s5) it would not make sense from a political perspective. It's just high treason and the risk is so high in order not to be exposed if Ellaria+The Sandsnakes fail in their mission to kill him and Trystane.

um...what...?

no one cares about doran's "wisdom" as you call it. clearly the majority of dorne saw it as cowardice, so right away that "argument" if you can even call it that is invalid.

and based on the fact that the guards didn't react when she stabbed doran, or the fact that they put her in charge and gave her control of the army shows that the lesser houses and common people DID support ellaria. you are really grasping at straws here to justify your hatred of a storyline on a television program. 

The logical thing is to believe Ellaria is delusional and wants to be queen? I just...what...? Ellaria Sand made her intentions abundantly clear from the get go, to go to war with the Lannisters. That does not include her convincing herself she has imaginary support from imaginary people, and then trying to depose Tommen and naming herself queen. She wants revenge for Oberyn, Elia, and every other Dornish life lost in the Lannisters quest for power. She hasn't been "characterized" as being after the Throne since season five, that is simple a falsehood to support your own imaginary argument. She has been characterized as being the embodiment of Dornish frustration towards the Lannisters for walking all over them, and towards Doran for allowing it to happen. 

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